Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Shrug]

fletching S -> A+

no no no no no no no

It's literally the second-best sweeper in the tier behind timburr... and it continues to be the best revenge killer. there's literally no reason for it to be A+ instead of S unless you expect it to 6-0 full teams which is retarded

 

[kingmidas]

no no no no no no no

It's literally the second-best sweeper in the tier behind timburr... and it continues to be the best revenge killer. there's literally no reason for it to be A+ instead of S unless you expect it to 6-0 full teams which is retarded

thats not even an argument, its random whining, we're through with this for now, theres been enough discussion and consensus, we had like 5 different revivals of it, then was your time to argue against it, and maybe better than you did since it still dropped.
Edit: apparently the post was interpreted weirdly by people.

 

[Shrug]

uhhh more like they would say "fletch should be in A archen and Pawn beat it!" and I would make the exact same point (it's the best revenge killer) and the debate would stop because there's no way to argue against that. So five debates started but none decided Please try and refute that

 

[Tymano]

Yeah Chinchou is good in its spot in A+, but even though the meta game evolved to counter fletchling, it is still easily the best revenge-killer, with a priority 110 base power Acrobatics, alot of stuff goes down in the eyes of Fletchling. Plus it has SD, U-Turn to get out, and Overheat for Pawn, it can do a lot of stuff really well and there is not alot that wants to take a hit from LC's great Robin.
Fletchling A+-S

 

[tazz]

The metagame has adapted to fletchling to the extent that it cannot revenge kill as much as you're saying it can. It's counters are not only common, but good in their own right. Most teams will have at least one of tirtouga, archen, chinchou, magnemite, etc, all of whom stop fletchling from doing what it wants to do. At least one of these pokemon will be on every playstyle, every good team. Fletchling definitely belongs in A+

 

[kingmidas]

uhhh more like they would say "fletch should be in A archen and Pawn beat it!" and I would make the exact same point (it's the best revenge killer) and the debate would stop because there's no way to argue against that. So five debates started but none decided Please try and refute that

idk who you were talking to, but no one with half a brain posted arguments like that, how about you try to prove otherwise instead of now jumping on bad arguments you "noticed".

 

[Shrug]

The metagame has adapted to fletchling to the extent that it cannot revenge kill as much as you're saying it can. It's counters are not only common, but good in their own right. Most teams will have at least one of tirtouga, archen, chinchou, magnemite, etc, all of whom stop fletchling from doing what it wants to do. At least one of these pokemon will be on every playstyle, every good team. Fletchling definitely belongs in A+

It can revenge Bellsprout (a menace) nearly all fighting types (the most prominent type in the tier) and most other weakened threats (which is very very useful). And it has counters but everything has counters.

idk who you were talking to, but no one with half a brain posted arguments like that, how about you try to prove otherwise instead of now jumping on bad arguments you "noticed".

Like can you read the post above you which makes an demonstrably incorrect point about revenge killers then... lists counters. so nice try i guess? I've made the point that Fletch is the best revenge killer and the second-best sweeper in the tier; I haven't heard any disagreement on those counts yet. I feel (most people feel?) that being upper-echelon in two huge offensive roles in an offensive metagame merits S-tier. So you can argue either a) other pokemon are better at those roles or b) those roles don't merit S-tier.

 

[Rowan]

Fletchling has been discussed to death and back. It's almost universally agreed that yes, it shaped the meta a ton, but now the metagame has evolved around it, it's much more difficult to use effectively (think gen 5 Scraggy). Pawniard and Mienfoo, the S ranks, are simply on a different level to Fletchling.

Read Hawkstar's post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-viability-rankings.3496013/page-60#post-5905965

Fletchling is A+, we're moving on now. There's always gonna be some people which disagree with things (I still believe Chinchou should be S for example), but we have to go with what the overall playerbase believe.

 

[boo836]

Nominating everything in A+ besides Timburr, Chinchou, Fletchling, and Abra to move down to A. There's no way in hell that any of those other Pokemon are remotely close in viability to Fletchling or Chinchou, which are basically metagame-defining.

 

[tazz]

Nominating everything in A+ besides Timburr, Chinchou, Fletchling, and Abra to move down to A. There's no way in hell that any of those other Pokemon are remotely close in viability to Fletchling or Chinchou, which are basically metagame-defining.

drilbur and maybe archen should stay there as well, but I agree, most of the things in A+ are not of chinchou and fletchling's viability.

 

[Pancham]

Abra, Archen, Chinchou, Drilbur, Fletchling, Ponyta, and Timburr should stay A+.

Moving Fletchling down really fucked up the viability rankings. Not much Chinchou as it shouldn't have risen in the first place and was already A+ prior to moving up for the few weeks it was. I am also one of the few that doesn't think Chinchou lives up to all the hype it is receiving since the Misdreavus ban...

EDIT: Also, can we finally move Pancham to A+ where it belongs? I believe a month is ample time for the community to realize that Pancham easily is on par with Timburrin viability, often times I much prefer Pancham than Timburr in many situations. The ability to maintain Timburr's bulk and power while also pivoting is something that should be treasured. There's also the fact that it has greta filler options including moves like Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot, and even Swords Dance or Bulk if you so want over Parting Shot. Pancham has so many options that it is easily deserving of A+.

I would also like to suggest the movement of Pumpkaboo to A-, if not mid A, with Skrelp finally going to B+.

 

[Rowan]

My thoughts:
Drilbur A+ -> mid A. Drilbur is a great support mon with spin+rocks, and a threatening EQ, but it's not actually able to switch into much, and is kinda frail with no recovery making it easy to wear down. In S or A rank it can only really switch in and force out Magnemite, Croagunk and Pawniard, but even then it can only take a hit and force them out once or twice because it can't recover from their hits. Also, it's ability as a spinner has decreased since Pumpkaboo's improvement. It's swords dance set is still okay, but again 17 speed means it struggles to do it's job really well. Scarf set is still good and all, but still needs way too much support to sweep late game. Not saying it's bad, but it's more Mid A than High A.

Skrelp should go to B+. A is too high for me. It's really difficult to switch into, but its speed means it can be easily taken advantage of if you predict wrong. It's good, but it's not on par with stuff in A.

Pancham should be Mid or High A... don't really need to explain why, I think everyone agrees it is A, just what section of A should it be in?

Pumpkaboo to A-. best spinblocker, and generally a really useful defensive mon. Walling all ground+water types is a valuable niche in this metagame atm, and along with spinblocking + spreading burns to stop Pawniard/Stunky switching in so easily, it's really good.


___________________

Larvesta and Hippopotas are moving to B+ unless anyone objects now?

 

[tazz]

Pancham belongs in A- or A for its role as a bulky attacker, but because mienfoo is generally a better option for most teams, A+ is too high.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

My thoughts:
Drilbur A+ -> mid A. Drilbur is a great support mon with spin+rocks, and a threatening EQ, but it's not actually able to switch into much, and is kinda frail with no recovery making it easy to wear down. In S or A rank it can only really switch in and force out Magnemite, Croagunk and Pawniard, but even then it can only take a hit and force them out once or twice because it can't recover from their hits. Also, it's ability as a spinner has decreased since Pumpkaboo's improvement. It's swords dance set is still okay, but again 17 speed means it struggles to do it's job really well. Scarf set is still good and all, but still needs way too much support to sweep late game. Not saying it's bad, but it's more Mid A than High A.

Skrelp should go to B+. A is too high for me. It's really difficult to switch into, but its speed means it can be easily taken advantage of if you predict wrong. It's good, but it's not on par with stuff in A.

Pancham should be Mid or High A... don't really need to explain why, I think everyone agrees it is A, just what section of A should it be in?

Pumpkaboo to A-. best spinblocker, and generally a really useful defensive mon. Walling all ground+water types is a valuable niche in this metagame atm, and along with spinblocking + spreading burns to stop Pawniard/Stunky switching in so easily, it's really good.


___________________

Larvesta and Hippopotas are moving to B+ unless anyone objects now?

I agree that Drilbur should drop. Don't get me wrong, I love Drilbur. It just gets to worn down throughout a match though, and can't survive long enough. Still A for sure, but not enough longevity to be A+. I would say more, but you pretty much already summed it up, Rowan.

 

[Rowan]

Pancham belongs in A- or A for its role as a bulky attacker, but because mienfoo is generally a better option for most teams, A+ is too high.

pancham is stronger and bulkier than mienfoo. it can braek through fairies with gunk shot, or run zenbutt for croagunk. it can even go 4 attacks with them both. it can run SD for greater wallbreaking potential. it can run parting shot to support set up sweepers. I think it differentiates itself from mienfoo enough that we shouldn't compare them when discussing pancham's viability

 

[infamy]

TFS and I just discovered something spectacular. It goes by the name of... Finneon. Now, for whatever absurd reason, Finneon is not ranked here. This is an obscene crime to society. Finneon possesses what is very much a viable niche as a Stealth Rock-neutral Defogger with U-Turn. While that may sound a bit of a stretch for a viable niche, let me put it this way: many Pokemon on VoltTurn teams, which is arguably the best team archetype in this metagame, are weak to Stealth Rock. Finneon can not only Defog away annoying hazards, but it does so without adding another Stealth Rock weakness and keep up momentum with U-Turn.

Nominating Finneon for C Rank:

Pros and Cons of Finneon

+Good defensive typing
+SR-neutral & Defog
+U-Turn
+Passable bulk and good ability

+Good options outside of Defog like Swift Swimmer and Tailwind support
+Has the most broken move ever

-No recovery
-Lack of offensive presence

Finneon is a very underrated Pokemon. It belongs, at least in my opinion, to arguably the most forgotten evolution lines in all of Pokemon (Finneon -> Lumineon), and I don't think that's doing it any favors. But beyond that, Finneon does have some issues. It has no reliable recovery outside of Berry Juice, which means it is not as durable a Pokemon as it would like to be. It also doesn't hit very hard, with its base 49 Attack and Special Attack stats. Clearly Finneon is by no means a perfect Pokemon.

That being said, however, it is a much better Pokemon than most people realize. Finneon has a very useful niche as a Stealth Rock neutral Defogger, which only it, Seedot and Stunky can do. What Finneon has over these others is that 1) it has access to U-Turn, meaning it fits better on VoltTurn teams, 2) it has better bulk than either Stunky or Seedot (I'm fairly sure that 61/47/41 defenses- i.e. Stunky- are outclassed by 49/56/61- i.e. Finneon), and 3) it has a better support movepool than either of them, with Scald, Tailwind, and Icy Wind. Here are some relevant calcs in no particular order:

I really need to stop doing this since no one reads these LOL

240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Finneon: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Eviolite Finneon: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Finneon: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Eviolite Finneon: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Eviolite Finneon: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
76 SpA Ponyta Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Finneon: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)

THOUGHTS ON ROWAN'S THINGS:
-Dril has lost some viability, A seems fine.
-Skrelp deserves A- imo, but B+ is fine for now.
-Pancham definitely should go A+. It's a great Pokemon, and it really serves a completely different role from Mienfoo, since it's significantly stronger and bulkier than Mienfoo.
-Pumpkin to A- seems good. Not much to say about that.

 

[Camden]

I can agree that it's time to move Drilbur down to A. Like Rowan mentioned, its frailty doesn't allow it to perform its support set as well as it could. It struggles against common leads and Knock Off users. I find myself not wanting to spin with it most of the time because it ends up taking a ton of damage or just straight up gets KO in the process. Also, with Pumpkaboo everywhere right now, it just generally has trouble doing anything. I still think the SD set is fantastic, but unfortunately struggles against priority users and risks taking too much damage if it ends up taking any damage beforehand.

 

[SilentMango]

Just because Pumpkaboo is being kind of brushed aside as a quick "yeah, pump for A-," I'll just go ahead and support my favorite ghost pumpkin (gorgeist is ugly af. I'm sorry ), and say why I think it should be A- in a lot of detail.
1. Pumpkaboo's Will-o-Wisp means it can pseudo check almost all of it's counters that want to switch in(screw fire types). Knocking Off Running Mienfoos (all), Pawniards, and Fletchling are crippled by burns.
2. Pumpkaboo is the most viable spin blocker, making Drilbur less viable, or just forcing it to run the absurd Shadow Claw Drilbur. It also deals with Staryu pretty well, unless Staryu runs ice-beam specifically to deal with Pumpkaboo. It is almost like a Foongus and other pokemon running HpFighting because Pawniard completely walls it, but to a much lesser degree.
3. It has priority. While weak, priority is still priority. The priority is nice to deal with Abra and Gastly.
4. Really wide movepool ( even though the offensive potential can't really be tapped). Flamethrower Pumpkaboo for Ferroseeds? Trick with like a choice scarf could be interesting, and Pumpkaboo is also one of the few viable Trick Room setters, so you can play around with that as well. Synthesis is amazing, and you could even try running destiny bond if you felt like it, but Pumpkaboo is pretty slow. The main move it runs, bullet seed is great, because of LC rolls and the ability to break sashes.
5(edited in). Frisk is surprisingly helpful against like Chinchous to see what set they are running. If you know it is scarf and they used a water move, stay in. If you see BJ, chances are they have Ice Beam, switch out. If see they have eviolite, you should probably stay in and go for a Will-o. It also helps against Tirtouga( SS or Bulky), and Bunnebly, if he hasn't fired off a shot yet. Probably more that I can't think of.

EDIT: Watch the replay for in my sig (if you have time) for more evidence :). It shows off my bad player skills.

Pumpkaboo in general is also VERY bulky. If matters call for it, it can live Fletchling's Acrobatics, Mienfoo and all the other fighting types's Knock Offs, and proceed to burn them.

calcs

36 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO

So yeah, Pumpkaboo for president/ A- Rank

 

[The Avalanches]

I can get on board with all of this, really.

I adore Drilbur to bits, and made a team based around it good enough for Team Showcase. It is still my favourite Pokemon to use in this metagame, but ORAS was so unkind to it. Pancham and Pumpkaboo are too bulky for it to beat 1v1, and even with Evioite, it can't stand up to their attacks. It's still an amazing Pokemon in this meta, and it can run many sets, but the meta shift warrants a drop.

Pumpkaboo-XL is so much improved with Synthesis. I began to use Pumpkaboo more frequently towards the end of XY as a Trick Room setter or a bulky Spinblocker. Ghost/Grass-typing is deceptively useful, and with its very good defensive stats, it can wall a good portion of the meta. Shadow Sneak is great for Abra and Gastly which are spectacular threats in this metagame. I think a move to A-/B+ is appropriate.

Pancham now gets the same toys as his ugly brothers. Although it lacks the priority or Regenerator they enjoy, it has access to Parting Shot, a fun little toy that gives a teammate a cushioned entry. It also has Gunk Shot and Zen Headbutt to set it apart from its ugly bastard brothers, allowing it to take on Fairy- and Poison-types respectively. Mid/High A is probably a good place in my opinion.

 

[gali]

I've been playing around with Baton Pass, and I think that Mime Jr. and Munna should be ranked. (I also think we need to seriously look at a Baton pass clause, but that's for a different thread.) Those two are the crux of any successful Baton pass team due to their unique attributes. Mime Jr. can double boost with Barrier and Calm Mind, has Soundproof to block random Roars, and most importanylt can run Encore to mess with boosters tho boost alongside the BP chain. Munna, on the other hand, is a fearsome sweeper when passed a bunch of boosts; Stab 180+ BP Stored Power OHKOes pretty much the whole tier, including shit like Ferroseed. It can keep boosting with Calm Mind, and has reliable recovery. However, while both are really good in full Baton Pass, they're both completely unviable out of it, so I'm gonna nominate them both for C-.

 

[doomsday doink]

I've been playing around with Baton Pass, and I think that Mime Jr. and Munna should be ranked. (I also think we need to seriously look at a Baton pass clause, but that's for a different thread.) Those two are the crux of any successful Baton pass team due to their unique attributes. Mime Jr. can double boost with Barrier and Calm Mind, has Soundproof to block random Roars, and most importanylt can run Encore to mess with boosters tho boost alongside the BP chain. Munna, on the other hand, is a fearsome sweeper when passed a bunch of boosts; Stab 180+ BP Stored Power OHKOes pretty much the whole tier, including shit like Ferroseed. It can keep boosting with Calm Mind, and has reliable recovery. However, while both are really good in full Baton Pass, they're both completely unviable out of it, so I'm gonna nominate them both for C-.

If Baton Pass is an issue, run Taunt, Haze, Clear Smog, Whirlwind etc. Natu can't get Baton Pass and Magic Bounce, so there's really no reason to consider a Baton Pass clause.

 

[Tymano]

If Baton Pass is an issue, run Taunt, Haze, Clear Smog, Whirlwind etc. Natu can't get Baton Pass and Magic Bounce, so there's really no reason to consider a Baton Pass clause.

If the Passer outspeeds, then it could run its own taunt and completely shut the BP counter down, but Knock off ruins BP in this meta so you should be fine without it.

Edit---But BP is unseen, so you really don't need a counter to it.

 

[Rowan]

this isn't the place to be discussing a potential baton pass clause.

 

[Rowan]

hippo -> high B
larvesta -> high B
drilbur -> mid A
finneon -> low C
pumpkaboo -> low A
munna -> D
mime jr -> D (made the executive decision with these two, don't think being good on full baton pass is a niche that is deserving of C tier)

Pancham is currently going to move to A+, Skrelp is going to move to B+, Onix is going to move to B+. Not moving them yet to give people time to object.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I disagree with Pancham moving to A+.
I do not think it's on the same level as the other A+ ranks. As a pivot, it is extremely prone to being worn down; as such, it suffers a huge amount of competition from Mienfoo, who boasts a more versatile movepool, higher speed, and of course, Regenerator, which is probably the best defensive ability in LC. If you're looking for a general Fighting-type to serve as a check to key threats, Timburr is generally more effective, because Mach Punch is an absolutely enormous boon in helping Timburr check certain threats even after Timburr has already switched in once, as well as generally being useful for picking off a variety of weakened enemies; Mach Punch also allows Timburr to act as a far more potent win condition than Pancham or pretty much any other Fighting-type (except maybe Riolu) with its Bulk Up set. In regards to its Swords Dance set, I would usually instead opt for Croagunk, who possesses a more powerful and accurate Sludge Wave and, more importantly, Vacuum Wave for more utility outside of wallbreaking and better holding its own against offensive teams. Pancham is slightly overshadowed in pretty much everything it can do.
With that being said, Pancham still certainly has its perks for both its SD and pivot sets, allowing it to carve a noticeable niche as either, and it also helps that it can run either a wallbreaking or a pivot set, with Mienfoo being the only other Fighting-type that can effectively run both. I just feel as if it's closer in viability to Croagunk than to Timburr (which is obviously still very, very good).
I also disagree with Onix moving to B+.
I simply do not think it's worth wasting a team slot just to get Stealth Rock up. Onix does have its STAB moves, but they're honestly underwhelming at best; we're talking about an Earthquake that has a 50% to OHKO 76 Def Abra, and 6.3% chance to OHKO Croagunk after Stealth Rock. Taunt is a mediocre way to keep hazards off the field unless you have something like 3 or more Taunt users on your team, because there's nothing stopping Dwebble from simply switching out to set up hazards later, or better yet, not being used as a lead in the first place. Checking Fletchling is a decent niche, but it's not like Onix is the ultimate answer to Fletchling because its Berry Juice will likely be popped early in the match, leaving it prone to being worn down, especially considering how much of the metagame it's forced out by if Fletchling just U-Turns. I would much rather use a Stealth Rock setter that actually has a significant presence outside of getting rocks up, such as Dwebble with Knock Off, hazard stacking and sweeping potential with Shell Smash if we go down the suicide lead route, or Tirtouga or Archen if we're discussing Fletchling checks. I understand that Onix has gotten better with Pumpkaboo's buff allowing for an effective spinblocker, but I frankly do not believe Onix was B-level before, or B+ now.