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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
- Status
You yourself said that Mega Slowbro needs to run defensive investment... lol
And anyway, it's pretty obvious to everyone at this point that the council is a joke (even Eevee General has voiced his concerns about its credibility).
The number of pro ban arguments from credible users is overwhelming, so you saying "it's simply not banworthy" means nothing. There have been 0 convincing anti-ban arguments yet.
Not thrilled with w0rd's behavior, not thrilled with how the council has at no point acknowledged the flaws in their statements (Exception: Eevee General acknowledged that Mega Gyarados can't get Dark Void after claiming it can) or substantially countered the criticisms of the decision to keep Slowbronite legal. Thus far the council's arguments have, when they aren't factually incorrect or otherwise wrong, tended to be summarized in the following statement.
"Nuh-uh, it's not overpowered because we said so."
This is not convincing anyone who thinks and is killing my respect for the council, let alone its decision.
"Nuh-uh, it's not overpowered because we said so."
This is not convincing anyone who thinks and is killing my respect for the council, let alone its decision.
EV
Banned deucer.
I've told the council that I'm going to re-organize how suspects are handled moving forward. I don't like how this went down, from the arguments in our own council, to the spillover in the thread, to the lack of respect for our decision.
I love this metagame and I hate to see it torn apart. I'll make up my mind soon on what I want to do. I'm not mad at anyone in particular btw, just frustrated because something isn't working.
I would prefer that anyone who wishes to debate Mega Slowbro do it without calling out other users. Please just present the facts, not "he/she said this and they're wrong." Alternatively, I would love it if people discussed other aspects of the metagame as well because by now the Mega Slowbro fiasco has been way overdone.
If anyone has any suggestions about how to work out future suspects, I encourage you to message me. I'm open to any and all comments, positive or negative, so long as they're constructive!
I love this metagame and I hate to see it torn apart. I'll make up my mind soon on what I want to do. I'm not mad at anyone in particular btw, just frustrated because something isn't working.
I would prefer that anyone who wishes to debate Mega Slowbro do it without calling out other users. Please just present the facts, not "he/she said this and they're wrong." Alternatively, I would love it if people discussed other aspects of the metagame as well because by now the Mega Slowbro fiasco has been way overdone.
If anyone has any suggestions about how to work out future suspects, I encourage you to message me. I'm open to any and all comments, positive or negative, so long as they're constructive!
Speaking of Slowbro and its ability to wall, I have been using stall lately and found it to beat a very viable playstyle. I have used it in four room tournaments, with it getting to the finals of all of them and winning two. It has preformed very well overall, with stall being very "anti-meta" and beating many many common pokemon. Pokemon such as Diggersby can be huge problems for offense, but stall usually doesn't have as much of a problem with multiple checks/counters. Many STABmons teams don't bother packing a wallbreaker or two because stall isn't used hardly ever and isn't considered to be very good. The most you will see of it is the occasional Landorus-Therian or Chansey, maybe a defensive Heatran. But fun stall isn't something that is used often. I think this should perhaps change. Stall can easily handle its own against a lot of different teams and isn't as annoyed with the priority spam as offense. Many good defensive pokemon gain a lot from STABmons, such as Ferrothorn getting reliable recovery. What are others thoughts on stall and its viability?
I've seen a lot of Heatran sit tight with Sacred Fire/Roar/King's Shield/Doom Desire. This can prove to be very pressurizing for any team without Chansey. You can have something like Skarmory or Landorus-T set up rocks. Then all you have to do is park Heatran up front at the right time.
The pressure of an impending Doom Desire, the annoying burn rate of Sacred Fire, gas to the fire with King's Shield, the SR damage plus Phazing makes it a great member of stall teams.
A Chansey would make great core with Landorus-T and Heatran. Spikes + Rocky Helmet on Landorus-T and Rocky Helmet on Heatran if you're too ambitious.
But always be sure to have a FakeSpeed revenger to kill problematic things that can hit hard or Taunt.
The pressure of an impending Doom Desire, the annoying burn rate of Sacred Fire, gas to the fire with King's Shield, the SR damage plus Phazing makes it a great member of stall teams.
A Chansey would make great core with Landorus-T and Heatran. Spikes + Rocky Helmet on Landorus-T and Rocky Helmet on Heatran if you're too ambitious.
But always be sure to have a FakeSpeed revenger to kill problematic things that can hit hard or Taunt.
EV
Banned deucer.
How are people faring with Aegislash? It used to be a sleeper threat, but now I'm seeing it cause a lot of trouble. Not even our lord and savior Mega Bro can handle it. Shadow Force hits like a dump truck on steroids. Doom Desire is even stronger than Heatran's. Sacred Sword cuts down Normals foolish enough to predict Shadow Force. And Shift Gear is the icing on the ghostly cake.
Air Balloon used to be common to get a switch into Diggersby, but the era of Knock Offby means it can't count on that anymore. If anything that means Aegi can just opt for Life Orb now that Air Balloon isn't as useful, making it even stronger.
Air Balloon used to be common to get a switch into Diggersby, but the era of Knock Offby means it can't count on that anymore. If anything that means Aegi can just opt for Life Orb now that Air Balloon isn't as useful, making it even stronger.
To be frank, I think simply banning and unbanning it made it more tempting to players. Or at least pointed out its feasibility to people who hadn't considered it before. The most threatening thing is that it can hit on both sides Physical and Special. And of course the ability to not only check, but KO a lot of Physical attackers with setup.
EV
Banned deucer.
So I told the council first and now I'll share my decision.
I've decided to dissolve any form of an official council and handle suspects like I have been doing in Inverse. That means anyone who posts in this thread has a say, but I will take certain opinions over others, particular ones backed up with evidence like replays, calcs, and/or ladder ranks*. The former council members are just as welcome to contribute.
*Ladder ranks aren't foolproof in such a small metagame but players who consistently rank near the top generally have a better understanding of it than someone who got lucky with one replay.
That being said, the last suspect decision on Slowbronite is reversed and banned. Quoting myself in the convo:
Air out any complains on my profile. I'd rather we move forward from this (major) hiccup. The Immortal I'm gonna keep you busy bby.
I've decided to dissolve any form of an official council and handle suspects like I have been doing in Inverse. That means anyone who posts in this thread has a say, but I will take certain opinions over others, particular ones backed up with evidence like replays, calcs, and/or ladder ranks*. The former council members are just as welcome to contribute.
*Ladder ranks aren't foolproof in such a small metagame but players who consistently rank near the top generally have a better understanding of it than someone who got lucky with one replay.
That being said, the last suspect decision on Slowbronite is reversed and banned. Quoting myself in the convo:
tl;dr - No more council, TEG makes the final decision on bans, going to be more liberal with them in order to foster better metagame.
Air out any complains on my profile. I'd rather we move forward from this (major) hiccup. The Immortal I'm gonna keep you busy bby.
Hello Eevee General I hate Diggersby and this is why. Diggersby has always been broken if you ask me, but with ORAS comes Knock Off, changing Diggersby's world. Gengar and Gourgeist are used purely to counter Diggersby, and now they can not even do that. Diggersby is broken because it can beat nearly everything in the entire metagame, force teams to check it through around three ways each, and does not have any solid counters. I'd like to compare it to Aegislash, which overcentralized the metagame, was extremely powerful, and had next to no counters. Thus, I would please love a suspect for it. 
.
Also I hate Diggersby because it's ugly and fat and I never want to have to see it's horrid face ever again.
.Also I hate Diggersby because it's ugly and fat and I never want to have to see it's horrid face ever again.
DISCLAIMER: he means aegislash overcentralized the OU metagame.Hello Eevee General I hate Diggersby and this is why. Diggersby has always been broken if you ask me, but with ORAS comes Knock Off, changing Diggersby's world. Gengar and Gourgeist are used purely to counter Diggersby, and now they can not even do that. Diggersby is broken because it can beat nearly everything in the entire metagame, force teams to check it through around three ways each, and does not have any solid counters. I'd like to compare it to Aegislash, which overcentralized the metagame, was extremely powerful, and had next to no counters. Thus, I would please love a suspect for it.
I would like to point out -it's somewhere in the forum, not this thread- that Diggersby is the only Pokemon in STABmons I made a dumb, gimmicky counter to precisely because it was a nightmare to wall. This was a hyper offense team (Because that's how I roll), and by the by, it doesn't work now that Diggersby has Knock Off -Air Balloon Golurk just dies to a proper Diggersby set as of ORAS.
I would love to see itbanned suspected too.
I would love to see it
I completely agree with unfixable post. With the advent of ORAS, Diggersby retained it's fearsome power and FakeSpeed combination, allowing it to ruin many would-be offensive answers, while gaining all the tools it needs to punish common switchins. Think here, Knock Off for Gengar and Gourgeist, Ice Punch for Landorus-Therian, Fire Punch for Mega Scizor while keeping the likes of Wild Charge to hit Skarmory. Put simply, Diggersby no longer has any true counters and massively overcentralizes the metagame, in that even offensive teams commonly have to run a minimum of 2 "checks" not to get totally run over by it. I say "checks" because until you know the set, you don't know whether your check can actually do anything or will just get bopped by the appropriate coverage. I feel Diggersby is limiting teambuilding and to some extent the metagame with it's presence, as it singlehandely makes a huge number of Pokemon either viable or not, which is where the comparisons to Aegislash come from. Admittedly FakeSpeed can be abused by other pokemon, but none come close to matching Diggersby's power, coverage or sustainability throughout a game. Put simply, I think Diggersby limits current STABmons too much and should therefore be suspected and potentially banned.
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Going to post my arguments on why diggersby should be suspected.
The fact is, the combination of insane revenge-killing power and literally no switch-ins makes it suspect worthy in itself.
Revenge killing
There's nothing that's as efficient and powerful at revenge killing in any tier barring balanced hackmons (which, even in that tier full of monstrous stuff, -ate was limited). The combination of STAB, an essentially 120 BP STAB revenge killing combo that overrides all other priority moves, an essentially base 162 base attack stat, and only 3 types that resist/are immune to its revenge killing move are what make this the perfect revenge killer. Of course, there are some arguments that this thing keeps things in check, and it's not too hard to switch-in to diggersby. Oh yeah, and if it can't kill you with the first fake out + extremespeed combo, it can always just switch out, come back in, and use fake out again to rack up damage until you finally die.
However, unlike most revenge killers in other metagames, Diggersby has no switch-ins:
"Switch-ins"
Before ORAS tutors, diggersby wasn't too hard to check, just run something like gengar, air balloon aegislash, mega scizor, bronzong, landorus-therian, or gyarados to beat it. Well, guess what? After ORAS, it could beat all those things with the addition of knock off, thunderpunch, fire punch, ice punch, and it also gained low kick and precipice blades to truly beat out many otherwise-would-be-gimmicky counters to this thing. But after ORAS came out, Mega slowbro was introduced, and it could wall it reliably. But now, with Mega slowbro banned, the only thing that reliably beats it is really Skarmory.
Not to mention that if you switch in, you could risk it setting up, should it be a set-up variant:
Setting up
Using its two main set up moves, belly drum and shell smash, Diggersby can obliterate any would-be check to this thing and pretty much OHKO it at +6 or +2. With shell smash, diggersby can easily set up and sweep teams with its combination of insane speed, power, and priority. With belly drum, diggersby can easily muscle its way through things. And it's not hard for diggersby to find an opportunity to set up; with the amount of offensive pressure it provides, it's actually hard to miss a set up opportunity. The problem with this set up sweeper in particular is that the protect diggersby is the most common set up variant (making it immune to fake out). That means that no pokemon can actually revenge kill this thing once it gets going, due to its +2 priority espeed that OHKOs extremely bulky non-resists at +2 attack or +6 attack, with EQ rounding out the coverage (which is still dangerous on SS due to the speed boosts) You're going to have to rely on unaware or something to beat it, or sacrifice something and send in your sableye, which can still end up getting eaten alive by earthquake.
And it's not like these roles will fade away with the banning of diggersby. Other normal types can still pull it off, just not half as efficiently as diggersby does. The other normal type fakespeeders are much healthier, able to be checked, and much, much, less powerful (barring ursaring, which loses out on versatility).
By suspecting/banning diggersby, we open up a whole new path of new threats to pass by without entirely taking away the "don't spam set-up pokemon" trademark of STABmons.
The fact is, the combination of insane revenge-killing power and literally no switch-ins makes it suspect worthy in itself.
Revenge killing
There's nothing that's as efficient and powerful at revenge killing in any tier barring balanced hackmons (which, even in that tier full of monstrous stuff, -ate was limited). The combination of STAB, an essentially 120 BP STAB revenge killing combo that overrides all other priority moves, an essentially base 162 base attack stat, and only 3 types that resist/are immune to its revenge killing move are what make this the perfect revenge killer. Of course, there are some arguments that this thing keeps things in check, and it's not too hard to switch-in to diggersby. Oh yeah, and if it can't kill you with the first fake out + extremespeed combo, it can always just switch out, come back in, and use fake out again to rack up damage until you finally die.
However, unlike most revenge killers in other metagames, Diggersby has no switch-ins:
"Switch-ins"
Before ORAS tutors, diggersby wasn't too hard to check, just run something like gengar, air balloon aegislash, mega scizor, bronzong, landorus-therian, or gyarados to beat it. Well, guess what? After ORAS, it could beat all those things with the addition of knock off, thunderpunch, fire punch, ice punch, and it also gained low kick and precipice blades to truly beat out many otherwise-would-be-gimmicky counters to this thing. But after ORAS came out, Mega slowbro was introduced, and it could wall it reliably. But now, with Mega slowbro banned, the only thing that reliably beats it is really Skarmory.
Not to mention that if you switch in, you could risk it setting up, should it be a set-up variant:
Setting up
Using its two main set up moves, belly drum and shell smash, Diggersby can obliterate any would-be check to this thing and pretty much OHKO it at +6 or +2. With shell smash, diggersby can easily set up and sweep teams with its combination of insane speed, power, and priority. With belly drum, diggersby can easily muscle its way through things. And it's not hard for diggersby to find an opportunity to set up; with the amount of offensive pressure it provides, it's actually hard to miss a set up opportunity. The problem with this set up sweeper in particular is that the protect diggersby is the most common set up variant (making it immune to fake out). That means that no pokemon can actually revenge kill this thing once it gets going, due to its +2 priority espeed that OHKOs extremely bulky non-resists at +2 attack or +6 attack, with EQ rounding out the coverage (which is still dangerous on SS due to the speed boosts) You're going to have to rely on unaware or something to beat it, or sacrifice something and send in your sableye, which can still end up getting eaten alive by earthquake.
And it's not like these roles will fade away with the banning of diggersby. Other normal types can still pull it off, just not half as efficiently as diggersby does. The other normal type fakespeeders are much healthier, able to be checked, and much, much, less powerful (barring ursaring, which loses out on versatility).
By suspecting/banning diggersby, we open up a whole new path of new threats to pass by without entirely taking away the "don't spam set-up pokemon" trademark of STABmons.
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Comparing a mon with base 78 speed to a mon with base 123 speed is your first problem. Diggersby is not broken like greninja is, where its just too diverse; diggersby is broken because its too powerful. Explosion is a hilarious win condition that rips whatever mon you use it against to shreds. This is how diggersby is broken: its so powerful it can choose to obliterate a counter just to help a team.
Let's be honest: Diggs has 1 legitimately viable set of its three possible (revenge killer, BD, SashSmash), so I'm just going to focus on that one: The infamous FakeSpeed silk scarf bunny.
Despite being extremely strong on it's own, able to power through almost any SINGLE pokemon in the metagame given a flat 1v1 situation, this strength also serves as its greatest curse. The fact that it CANNOT beat the majority of the tier WITHOUT BOTH fake out and extremespeed damage, which not only effectively cuts its moveslot in half, limiting the "amazing" coverage that it gets, but also makes it infinitely easier to switch into. And let's not forget that if Diggersby does get a kill, it isn't that difficult to bring in something like a Scizor and regaining all the lost offensive momentum.
Now, in terms of things that can easily beat Diggersby, very few people actually ran fringe pokemon like Gengar, Gourgeist, and Golurk in XY just for Diggs. They were, despite this merit, most of the time plain bad pokemon. That's just being honest. The real list has always been more along the lines of m-Scizor, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Quagsire, and to a lesser extent, Forretress, Aegislash, Chansey, Sableye, Glsicor and Tangrowth. With ORAS, Diggs got Knock Off (which seems to be the reason why people want it to go) but that only allows it to beat, from this list, Chansey, Aegislash, and possibly Slowbro. I know that it also gets the elemental punches, but that limits its coverage to one specific threat and loses out on Knock Off (the best option). On top of this, this list doesn't even include the plethora of offensive steels, rocks, and normals + Togekiss that Diggersby can't even revenge kill (Autotomize Magnezone, Terrakion, DD Tyraitar, Kangaskhan, Stoutland with protect, Bisharp, Scizor, Scarf Heatran, Excadrill, Jirachi)
And while an argument has been raised that different normals could fill the same role while making the metagame "healthier" since they aren't as efficient in the role as Diggersby, his presence in the tier is the reason there is a semblance of balance present currently. With a lack of EFFECTIVE +2 PRIORITY revenge killing, the tier will become flooded with teams that carry too many sweepers to be handled by Sableye and Quagsire, forcing teams to, instead of running a single Diggersby, run a combination of 2 or more checks to setup sweeping. Furhtermore, all it takes to beat Diggersby with setup sweeping is to run something that isn't beat by Diggersby (see below).
With the setup sets that are being hyped, it is not that hard to beat, especially after you know that it isn't a revenge killer. With SS, Fake out is the easiest way to beat it, as it leaves itself as an easy target with defense drops. BD sets are almost useless since they have no answer to anything faster than itself. Not to mention, both of these set can't beat the common, reliable answers to physical setup sweepers in Sableye, Quagsire, Skarmory, or sashKazam. On the topic of protect, while it does allow you to have an easy out to fake out, but limits you to ground and normal coverage, which while normally good, are the 2 STABs that any good team is most prepared to beat.
One last point: Sometimes something is very good, efficient and powerful. This does not make it broken. You may not like having to deal with something being a "staple" in the tier, and you may not like the fact that you have to consider the top-tier threats while you teambuild, lest you have a bad team. Sometimes there's a strategy that works and you don't like the way it functions, or having to deal with it. Unfortunately for you, this does not make something banworthy, and you just need to deal with making better plays and playing around or with it.
"Cause the players gonna play, play, play
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate
Baby I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake
Shake it off"
Despite being extremely strong on it's own, able to power through almost any SINGLE pokemon in the metagame given a flat 1v1 situation, this strength also serves as its greatest curse. The fact that it CANNOT beat the majority of the tier WITHOUT BOTH fake out and extremespeed damage, which not only effectively cuts its moveslot in half, limiting the "amazing" coverage that it gets, but also makes it infinitely easier to switch into. And let's not forget that if Diggersby does get a kill, it isn't that difficult to bring in something like a Scizor and regaining all the lost offensive momentum.
Now, in terms of things that can easily beat Diggersby, very few people actually ran fringe pokemon like Gengar, Gourgeist, and Golurk in XY just for Diggs. They were, despite this merit, most of the time plain bad pokemon. That's just being honest. The real list has always been more along the lines of m-Scizor, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Quagsire, and to a lesser extent, Forretress, Aegislash, Chansey, Sableye, Glsicor and Tangrowth. With ORAS, Diggs got Knock Off (which seems to be the reason why people want it to go) but that only allows it to beat, from this list, Chansey, Aegislash, and possibly Slowbro. I know that it also gets the elemental punches, but that limits its coverage to one specific threat and loses out on Knock Off (the best option). On top of this, this list doesn't even include the plethora of offensive steels, rocks, and normals + Togekiss that Diggersby can't even revenge kill (Autotomize Magnezone, Terrakion, DD Tyraitar, Kangaskhan, Stoutland with protect, Bisharp, Scizor, Scarf Heatran, Excadrill, Jirachi)
And while an argument has been raised that different normals could fill the same role while making the metagame "healthier" since they aren't as efficient in the role as Diggersby, his presence in the tier is the reason there is a semblance of balance present currently. With a lack of EFFECTIVE +2 PRIORITY revenge killing, the tier will become flooded with teams that carry too many sweepers to be handled by Sableye and Quagsire, forcing teams to, instead of running a single Diggersby, run a combination of 2 or more checks to setup sweeping. Furhtermore, all it takes to beat Diggersby with setup sweeping is to run something that isn't beat by Diggersby (see below).
With the setup sets that are being hyped, it is not that hard to beat, especially after you know that it isn't a revenge killer. With SS, Fake out is the easiest way to beat it, as it leaves itself as an easy target with defense drops. BD sets are almost useless since they have no answer to anything faster than itself. Not to mention, both of these set can't beat the common, reliable answers to physical setup sweepers in Sableye, Quagsire, Skarmory, or sashKazam. On the topic of protect, while it does allow you to have an easy out to fake out, but limits you to ground and normal coverage, which while normally good, are the 2 STABs that any good team is most prepared to beat.
One last point: Sometimes something is very good, efficient and powerful. This does not make it broken. You may not like having to deal with something being a "staple" in the tier, and you may not like the fact that you have to consider the top-tier threats while you teambuild, lest you have a bad team. Sometimes there's a strategy that works and you don't like the way it functions, or having to deal with it. Unfortunately for you, this does not make something banworthy, and you just need to deal with making better plays and playing around or with it.
"Cause the players gonna play, play, play
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate
Baby I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake
Shake it off"
Broken thing X checking Broken thing Y isn't a reason to keep Broken thing X in the tier. If Diggersby is found to be broken, then surely the metagame moves on from there, and if it causes further suspects due to the fact it kept broken things in check then that has to happen? This also has it's parallels with the OU Aegislash suspect test, in that many people feared the likes of Mega Heracross would be too much to handle in the metagame due to the lack of solid checks outside of Aegislash, who forced them to run suboptimal coverage or to just accept that it lost to it completely. My point is, I shouldn't have to run Diggersby, broken or not, if that's all that stands between me and getting overwhelmed by set-up sweepers. In either case, whether Diggersby is broken or not, those set-up sweepers most certainly are if I'm forced to run a potentially broken mon just to not get beat by them.
canno
formerly The Reptile
I'll post more opinions later but I think a better comparison is Greninja in ORAS rather than Aegislash in XY. The reason is simple - you can't really check it until you know what it's running. Assuming it always has FakeSpeed (which isn't the safest thing, but I feel like FakeSpeed is the best set), Earthquake (or Perceptual / Principle / Whatever Blade when relevant), and Silk Scarf (Life Orb is bad imho); it can run:
- Ice Punch to hit Lando-T (2HKO), Gourgeist (Super only has a chance to be 3HKO'd by Super), Gengar (2HKO), Chesnaught (3HKO), and some other mons I'm missing like other Bulky Grass-types and Gliscor.
- Fire Punch hits Scizor (gets hurt by EQ/Blades a bit but Fire Punch always kills), Ferrothorn (see; Scizor), Bulky Grass-types, Skarmory (3HKO), Gengar, and some other Steel-types that don't care about EQ.
- Thunder Punch imho is a shitty Fire Punch most of the time - can't even 3HKO Slowbro and does nothing vs bulky grasses. Main reason Thunder Punch is used is for Skarm which Fire Punch is a better option anyways. Wild Charge is better, and even then only 3HKO's Skarmory
- Knock Off hits Gourgeist (3HKO considering power drop on Super), Gengar, and not much else (I guess M-Slowbro but its doing diddly vs it because muh Mega Stone). However, Knock Off has utility vs Skarmory and friends, as you can Knock Off any Shed Shells they might hold to trap with Magnezone / Gothitelle later on. It also cripples Chansey and lets your EQ tear it a new one.
- Head Charge, an old move that some people liked to run (including me - I still do sometimes), can break though walls such as Chansey (reliable 2HKO - recoil don't even kill you because Head Charge has reduced recoil. Also ESPeed + Head Charge KOs. Blades do this too but can miss :^) ), 3HKO's physically defensive MegaBro, 3HKO's physically defensive Lando-T before Intimidate and 2HKO's if it switches in, 2HKO's Chesnaught, 2HKO's Gliscor, ect ect. It even dents things like Skarmory (physically defensive takes around 25.7-30.5 from it). If you're wondering why this is better than Perceptual Blades its because it can't miss and its boosted by Silk Scarf, the best item.
- Lovely Kiss to sleep switch-ins. Doesn't work vs Gliscor if it got it's Toxic Orb. Also 75% accuracy but w/e
- Spikes :DDDD
- Smack Down on the switch mainly hurts Skarmory, although it lets you hit Lando-T with Blades. Not very helpful vs Gengar actually since Gengar will probably outspeed and bully you anyways.
- Explosion is only really helpful for double FakeSpeed sweep teams, and this is probably better on your partner than on Diggersby itself (i.e. Stoutland), but it is insanely powerful so it is an option.
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
.....DID YOU READ HALF OF HIS POST???
A little footnote of his main point was that diggersby is important for keeping the meta intact (which idk why you argue with him - its not broken thing Y, its broken everything normal). His main point was that non rking sets aren't even that good, which I can say from experience is true, and there are tons of checks to the RK set. Aegislash is no comparison here: It had multiple viable sets that were all effective. Diggersby's boosting sets can't say the same - it has 2 really...useful sets. the first is spikes, the second is the SS or LO Revenge killer, the second being the only one that could be broken, and it has tons of checks.
Unless you want to ban the normal type and Geomancy, these "broken sweepers" can't really be banned. And I know based on what you said in that post that you are going to single out this sentence and say that "i disagree so your entire argument is wrong" because thats basically what you just did.
m-Scizor, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Quagsire, and to a lesser extent, Forretress, Aegislash, Chansey, Sableye, Glsicor and Tangrowth.
Thats a lot of checks. Most of them CAN switch in. With the introduction of mega slowbro, you are given what is basically a counter that is also an absurdly good mon in itself. Knock off doesn't beat any of the 6 primary checks/counters listed, and one of them can be used on any team for much more than diggersby.
Sacrificing for one mon coverage is simple. Its more like running non roost megazard X - you can choose to beat rhyperior and quagsire (grass knot), azumarill and other waters (tpunch), or lant (ice punch). All come at an opportunity cost: Having access to moves that can beat so called checks and counters does not make something broken. Oh you want more? Did being able to run tpunch mega medicham make it broken? no. Having the ability to run extrasensory on greninja to beat mvenu in early XY? no. Greninja in XY could also use a ton of different moves to beat various mons, but that didn't make it broken then. Greninja is arguably broken now because its recently newfound coverage makes it nearly uncounterable without opportunity cost. Diggersby running one of the many moves for just one or two of its specific counters comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to run any other move in that slot. Just like megazard X. Just like xy greninja. Just like Mega Medicham. Not at all like ORAS greninja. Or XY Aegislash, which many thought wasn't broken in the first place.
What, are you gonna say "its too good" to be able to beat some of its supposed counters? I am tremendously sorry you don't understand what a lure is. A lure is designed to change its own checks and counters and get kills as a result. I am even more sorry you can't handle a powerful lure without calling it broken.
The Opportunity cost of running those moves is the cost of not running others. If you run fire punch on it, you can't beat landorus-t, Slowbro, Quagsire, Chansey, Gliscor, or Driftblim/whatever niche irrelevant counter people act like is necessary. If you run explosion you are beaten by gengar, ferrothorn, skarmory (since it can't KO them), and many ghosts in general, besides being somewhat easy to play around.
If you think Diggersby is broken, I feel sorry for you. Realizing that any mon that COULD beat your supposed checks/counters is broken isn't a realization, its completely frustration-oriented that your check/counter may not always be good. OH WELL. Lures are a part of pokemon, and having one mon that beats your check/counter at a certain opportunity cost DOES NOT MAKE IT BROKEN.
Good Day.
Also, Please stop acting like children in chats as well. There was basically a screaming match earlier...calm your tits.
But that doesn't make the other sets unviable, I think it has one best set, but it certainly has much more. I personally run Spikes lead Diggersby and it's really effective, I've certainly used it enough and ranted enough about it lol. Diggersby has ~6 sets: revenge killer, Belly Drum, Sash + Shell Smash, Choice Band, Spikes lead, PunchBunny. I may even have missed something, but I don't think so.
I mean, sure, the pokemon can switch easily but what if Diggersby does predict this and uses Shell Smash or something? Then what is the opponent supposed to do? I don't really see how Fake Out + Extreme Speed damage is bad, I mean, you're not sweeping with Extreme Speed every time. You are mainly using it to check and pick off a lot of the weakened foes and then maybe later in the match after the opponent has been worn down. I mean, you kill something and the opponent brings in something that does check Diggersby, but that's how the entire game works. Scizor is sure a good check, but it can't switch in if Diggersby predicts and uses Earthquake. Prediction is a large key you have to take into account.
Mega Scizor is 2HKOed by Earthquake or Fire Punch, Skarmory is beaten through Wild Charge, Landorus-T is smacked by Ice Punch or Head Charge, Ferrothorn is OHKOed by Fire Punch, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Choice Band Precipice Blades (which I run myself, and have been seeing more of), Quagsire is defeated by Fake Out --> Earthquake but does have a generally good matchup, Forretress is 2HKOed by Extreme Speed, Aegislash doesn't like Knock Off and then Earthquake once baloon is ded, Chansey is 2HKOed by Earthquake, Sableye is OHKOed by Earthquake, Extreme Speed has a possibility to break Gliscor and does after Fake Out (or run Ice Punch), Tangrowth is the only true counter of those Pokemon you mentioned. Out of all of these, it outspeeds Mega Scizor, Skarmory, uninvested Landorus-T (needs to invest to check), Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Quagsire, Forretress, Aegislash, Chansey, Sableye, Gliscor, Tangrowth; or all of them basically. They can not switch in and this usually means something will die to get it in. Look at team preview only, the team is now 5-6 and might either be 4-6 or 5-5 with the first 5 being weakened due to Diggersby. You say that Punch moves limit coverage, but between Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Earthquake / Punch, it actually has a lot better coverage. It can break through anything it wants to, think Mega Slowbro here.
Ugh, I really hate this reasoning. I posted a thing on this already, so allow me to re-copy + paste. Wait I have one concern with anti-arguments and it's the whole "keeping the metagame glued together" thing. I truly don't believe this is a good standard on deciding what to ban and what not to ban; let's look at the Aegislash suspect for example. Many considered banning it would completely break the metagame and that Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir would be banned soon after with nothing checking them. Look at them now. The metagame adapts and just because a Pokemon keeps things in check does not make it any less broken. I just think that the entire anti-ban argument revolving around checking other things is flawed.
This point is fairly true, but Protect in the last slot isn't as bad as you're saying. Protect blocks Fake Out, the one thing in its way, and is even harder to deal with than not running it. This is why you don't set up right away, you wait until an opportunity arises late game and then Normal / Ground isn't even bad.
True that, but I still think Diggersby falls into the broken category.
I was just replying to the part I had issue with, there's no need to be so aggressive, I should have mentioned that I thought the rest of the post was very well written and hit the mark for me.
To answer your other points, to say Greninja has no opportunity cost is largely quite correct, however I think you're missing it's 4MSS. If we assume Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are on every set, the 4th move determines what it's walled by. No Hidden Power Fire? Good luck with Ferrothorn. No Low Kick? Good luck with Kyurem-B and Empoleon. No Dark Pulse? Good luck with Mew.
To answer the point on Mega Medicham, yeah very little outside of bulky Psychic types could switch in, but practically every respectable offensive pokemon that was quicker than it and not weak to the rare Bullet Punch could check it due to it's frailty, whereas this can't be said for Diggersby, as anything offensive wanting to check it first has to be able to swallow an ExtremeSpeed which in itself rules out a slew of offensive mons.
On Mega Slowbro:
Charizard can't learn Grass Knot or Ice Punch, to beat Quagsire you'd need to run Outrage, Landorus-T and Rhyperior are solid checks.Eevee General said:
I do understand what a lure is thank you, I was merely stating how very little in the metagame is now a safe switch in to Diggersby. I'll reiterate, it's not solely due to it's luring abilities that I believe it's broken.
Nowhere did I say solely due to the new moves it's gained that Diggersby is broken, in fact I find the fact that every team has to run multiple checks to it frankly more disturbing, as I find this incredibly centralizing for one mon and it puts a severe strain on the teambuilding possible in this metagame. Offensive teams have to detract from standard teambuilding as they have to have at least two checks to Diggersby due to it's prevalence and wide movepool.
Essentially all the stuff you've mentioned that can run coverage to beat common checks otherwise has flaws, in that they're beaten by faster offensive pokemon or don't have access to the coverage that they'd really love to be able to beat a particular mon. Diggersby has neither of these problems, it's only issue, as you've identified, is that it can't run everything at once.
I'll add more here when I have the time
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
offensive checks are aplenty, just like with mega medicham. Aerodactyl, Mega Scizor, various fast mons can outspeed and take a espeed. Even stuff like keldeo can take SS Espeed barring a crit (70%). Uncounterable is the argument, but there are plenty of things that are not counterable and not broken. I have to agree to disagree here, since I don't feel like expending the time on this argument.
The issue with banning diggersby is all the broken shit that comes in. It excessively centralizes sableye to handle those sweepers, and could lead to the banning of moves...or even types...*cringes*. Where normally we can just say the game will adapt or we can ban the broken shit, the problem becomes that this would require a fundamental change to the tier, one that may not be for the best.
The issue with banning diggersby is all the broken shit that comes in. It excessively centralizes sableye to handle those sweepers, and could lead to the banning of moves...or even types...*cringes*. Where normally we can just say the game will adapt or we can ban the broken shit, the problem becomes that this would require a fundamental change to the tier, one that may not be for the best.
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