np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

[trc]

Exactly. It has a 4x weakness to ice meaning it's not that hard to kill. I could list on and on how many mons run Ice Beam for utility and even Ice Punch (which I use on Mega Kangaskhan). Oh sure, MegaMence has an annoying redirector in Jirachi to resist Ice-type moves, but no one has acknowledged the fact that the mon using Ice Beam also has a partner. Redirectors can be interrupted with Fake Out or shut down with Taunt, Spore, etc. Heck, redirectors such as Togekiss and Jirachi are OHKOed by Bisharp, with Amoonguss getting rekt by Talonflame. And don't forget the Fairy-type spread moves, the Ice-type spread moves, and even Mega Diancie's Diamond storm. I understand MegaMence is a powerful mon, but it is not overcentralizing to be completely honest. Please note that am I still unsure of what side I will choose over this suspect after seeing plenty of strong arguments.

ok then. ho-oh has a 4x rock weakness so it's not hard to kill. i could list on and on how many mons run rock slide (hint: a lot). it can't even be redirected! yet for some reason, ho-oh isn't in doubles ou, huh. i don't think saying something "isn't hard to kill" by listing its 4x weakness is a great point. mega salamence also /resists/ a lot of moves too! maybe it doesn't have to setup on pokemon with ice-type moves! unless you're suggesting keeping one out the whole game. shame if it gets faked out and dies though.

 

[Haki]

ok then. ho-oh has a 4x rock weakness so it's not hard to kill. i could list on and on how many mons run rock slide (hint: a lot). it can't even be redirected! yet for some reason, ho-oh isn't in doubles ou, huh. i don't think saying something "isn't hard to kill" by listing its 4x weakness is a great point. mega salamence also /resists/ a lot of moves too! maybe it doesn't have to setup on pokemon with ice-type moves! unless you're suggesting keeping one out the whole game. shame if it gets faked out and dies though.

You mock me and my whole argument. I'm not trying to be condescending, and I surely am experienced enough in Doubles to know that Ho-oH is too much of a wall to be dropped down. Unfortunately, this discussion is suddenly turning into a rip session. I am just trying to make a point that MegaMence isn't as overpowered as most people think.

Anyway, many people seem to make the argument that +1 MegaMence is extremely powerful and can sweep teams with no check, but that can apply to multiple threats in Doubles, especially Gyarados (who also resists many attacks and who can be very hard to stop at +1).

More detailed post later.

 

[Honus]

You mock me and my whole argument. I'm not trying to be condescending, and I surely am experienced enough in Doubles to know that Ho-oH is too much of a wall to be dropped down. Unfortunately, this discussion is suddenly turning into a rip session. I am just trying to make a point that MegaMence isn't as overpowered as most people think.

I realize you are a respected doubles player but no matter the situation, the 'argument' is still very flimsy, and boils to down to "i can beat it so its not broken".

Redirectors can be interrupted with Fake Out or shut down with Taunt, Spore, etc. Heck, redirectors such as Togekiss and Jirachi are OHKOed by Bisharp, with Amoonguss getting rekt by Talonflame.

I dont know but it seems like a rare scenario when your opponent has both a Pokemon to beat salamence and its redirector partner, especially when the salamence player can play tactically to ensure such a scenario doesn't happen, meaning the opposing player will have to switch a pokemon in so their 2 beats both salamence/jirachi, but this act is often going to lead to salamence getting a DD, allowing it to then outrun an OHKO a talonflame while jirachi just uses follow me on their ice/fairy type. I think fairy spread moves are a good way to beat salamence/redirector as you stated, but ive only seen 3 that are really viable [sylveon, gardevoir, togekiss] so there arent a ton of options to do this in teambuilding, however prior damage can just allow the mence to outspeed and kill these pokemon since the fairy types in question have mediocre physical bulk. I think these types of arguments get made often but they seem to be founded in logic that exists on paper; maybe ice moves and fairy spread moves are prevalent in dubs, but a player with salamence and jirachi has a lot of ways to play around this, and once salamence finds an opportunity to dragon dance, it is very hard to stop due to its incredible bulk and power, and the presence of a great partner like jirachi makes it even more potent

 

[Roxer]

In my opinion the "It's 4x weak to something; It's very weak to stuff because of typing" argument should be taken with a grain of salt because switching and redirecting moves are a thing in doubles; If this argument was really taken seriously then Ferrothorn, Mega Diancie and Charizard-Y would be bad mons.

 

[Joim]

Fellow gentlemen, let me point to you how absurd is the "it can be killed" argument. Even though a lot of people seem to find this a very convincing no-ban argument, I'm going to go through the current Doubles Ubers and show you how they can be killed on the current meta. Perhaps we should unban everything?

Ubers that can be defeated in order. Yes, even Arceus.
ArceusThe almighty lord can't deal with Terrakion nor other fighting friends.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 437-515 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO252+ Atk Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 184-218 (56.9 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Arceus-Poison
Landoge the arceus slayer
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Poison: 248-294 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arceus-poison is defeated even by mega-camerupt.
252 SpA Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 111-132 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 390-462 (88 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Well, let's not be that facetious.

Dialga
wow 90 speed this shit is so slow it's irrelevant on doubles
As usual landoge the lord deals with this bitch with its almight scarf set
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 332-392 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
hell even heatran gives two shits about dialga. What's it going to do, use EQ?
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 160-188 (47.4 - 55.7%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 214-254 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
hahaha it actually tried to EQ
252+ Atk Life Orb Dialga Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 211-250 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and was KOd back.

Giratina
Let's see if the great wall is so great after all. Wow, even an aegislash ignoring it has a defensive form can deal with it:
0 SpA Giratina Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8+ SpD Giratina: 296-350 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
welp, so much for the great wall. But, wait, what is this?
0 SpA Giratina Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 306-360 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 246-290 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyu-b the dragonslayer!
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8+ SpD Giratina: 324-384 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
kek
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8+ SpD Giratina: 236-278 (46.9 - 55.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gardevoir doesn't even need mega lol and if it's mega:
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 8+ SpD Giratina: 266-314 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So not so great a wall, eh?

I'm tired so let's go to Zekrom directly.
Zekrom
150 atk, 90 speed, average uber bulk, teravolt. Why is this shit even Uber yo? Landoge the lord once again deals with this:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with special coverage:
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 257-304 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
omg let's invest:
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 313-370 (98.1 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Not even 100% without positive nature, and, well, it's a friggin' STAB Draco Meteor!
Heatran can almost take a bolt strike:
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-378 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and then:
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+10% from life orb + teammate or helping hand. Also no intimidate and no W-o-W on field!
Fairies, with intimidate support:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 420-494 (123.1 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rof
252+ SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 332-392 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
scarf garde saves the day
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 342-404 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
can't even switch in
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 456-536 (133.7 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega camerupt doesn't afraid of zekrom

Well, this was long and facetious but I guess you got my point. Calculations of Pokémon defeating other Pokémon does not mean the defeated Pokémon is not broken nor overcentralising. It means it is defeated by a specific strategy. It's the actual use on the meta, how it deals with its team to defeat other teams, the amount of things it defeats vs the things that defeat it, the impact on the meta (like stopping using specific mons due to its presence and the raise of other mons specifically to counter it) what matters. I'm sure we could go with every Uber and list a lot of reliable sources in more than the 10 minutes that took me to do this. Let's stop doing that, shall we?

PS: Earlier when I posted I failed to mention that Mega-K can't reliably boost since PuP needs a target that is not protecting and that is not a Ghost-type. Salamence can boost always unless Taunted.
PPS: Landoge seems to be good against a lot of threats and Ubers, let's ban landoge instead!

 

[Audiosurfer]

Mence in several ways is actually making Kanga better lol. It's made the usage of Musketeers, Hitmontop, and Scrafty plummet. Landorus-T is also less common. So anyone saying Kanga is better than Mence right now is missing the overall metagame trends. By the end of XY we knew how to handle Kanga pretty well (although it was undeniably still very good). Mence has substantially altered viability in the meta. Just look at everyone promoting shit like Milotic and Darkrai in the viability thread. I've also noted elsewhere how hard it is to build a team that stands up to Mence and Diancie. Throw in Kanga too and it becomes nearly impossible.

This is a long way of saying that it has substantially unbalanced the metagame and this is a meta that was previously so balanced it didn't ban a single mon in XY.

I just wanted to say that I don't see this as a negative thing. When metagames change there will be shifts in what works and what doesn't, so things that used to be good might not be as good anymore and I don't think that that's something that should be viewed negatively. Also, Pokemon such as Milotic and Darkrai were perfectly viable last format, they just weren't used, so them being made more appealing due to a metagame shift isn't something that shows me that people need to resort to a bunch of bizarre mons to handle it. Also you said that by the end of the metagame we knew how to handle Kang, so why isn't that able to happen with Mence?

I'm on the fence on my decision right now but I felt the need to address that.

 

[Joim]

The problem here isn't the metagame shifting. That happens. Remember when no one used Substitute un Heatran? Remember when then everyone did? Now shuca's the thing and everyone is doing it. That's just a trend.

But now there's a metagame shift centered on a single Pokémon. When a single Pokémon makes all the metagame change towards either beating it or making it sweep, it means that Pokémon has centralised all the metagame around itself, that is, this Pokémon is overcentralising. I think that's the main point of wanting to ban Mega-Salamence, that and it being too unpredictable to really prepare for it.

You can't prepare for it reliably because:
-It can use a special set that, albeit worse, if you're unprepared it wrecks you anyways.
-It can use a DD set with many coverage moves as its second attack, adapting it to what the team needs.
-It can use a coverage physical set without DD, using other kind of speed control (t-wave, tailwind) and just making it be able to KO more threats.

It makes the metagame center around it despite not being present in a lot of teams in such a way that:
-No one is using Hitmontop and Scrafty. Their usage has plummeted.
-You see much, much more Ice-type attacks. This isn't exactly bad, but shows how much people fears it. This has been worse than with landoge raise to power.
-You see slightly less grass-types. I know they aren't exactly the best, but the only Breloom used is sash spore to sleep it, amoonguss because it is still good (but can't really come into play until megamence is out). Mega-venusaur is nowhere to be seen.
-You see less Shaymin-Sky. You prefer Megamence as a Flying-type attacker which also may cover threats such as Rotom-W with its sheer power.
-It renders other megas less usable and make them drop in usage, much more critically than mega-khan.
-You will see Megamence checks in all teams. Literally all.

Why is mega mence better than other megas despite the 4x weakness? What makes it over line unlike Mega-K?
-Immune to Earthquake, common spread move used in Doubles.
-Has reliable recovery.
-Has a reliable boost (more reliable than Mega-K's PuP) which boost both attack and speed.
-It's more physically bulky than Skarmory.
-Has decent special bulk.
-Can use a high bulk set and still be fast and strong with a DD thanks to high base speed.
-Renders speed tiers useless as it just outspeeds all, 0 fucks given.
-Its ability makes it hit like a goddamn truck: gains STAB and power increase.
-With proper redirection (namely Jirachi) it can set up so easily it's just scary.
-With its base ability, Intimidate, it can force switches to set up.
-If it doesn't set up, it's a top tier Pokémon like the strongest in the meta. If it set ups it's over the line and this is really easy to accomplish.

PS: I'm on the fence too, slightly leaning towards ban.

 

[whissp]

I just wanted to say that I don't see this as a negative thing. When metagames change there will be shifts in what works and what doesn't, so things that used to be good might not be as good anymore and I don't think that that's something that should be viewed negatively. Also, Pokemon such as Milotic and Darkrai were perfectly viable last format, they just weren't used, so them being made more appealing due to a metagame shift isn't something that shows me that people need to resort to a bunch of bizarre mons to handle it. Also you said that by the end of the metagame we knew how to handle Kang, so why isn't that able to happen with Mence?

I'm on the fence on my decision right now but I felt the need to address that.

That's pretty much what I wanted to say in my previous posts but worded differently.

But now there's a metagame shift centered on a single Pokémon. When a single Pokémon makes all the metagame change towards either beating it or making it sweep, it means that Pokémon has centralised all the metagame around itself, that is, this Pokémon is overcentralising. I think that's the main point of wanting to ban Mega-Salamence, that and it being too unpredictable to really prepare for it.

Wasn't this exactly the case of mega kang in XY? Every single team in the beginning of XY had Terrak. Also Kang used to run many crazy unpredictable sets, which gradually developed into few sets that became standard.

 

[Joim]

Yeah, but we suspected mega-K and found out most sets were subpar, it didn't have room for protect at all, it's typing wasn't all that great, it's boost wasn't reliable and its bulk is inferior to that of megamence.

 

[Miridy]

Hello, I just finished getting reqs for my two alts, Timber Arc and To Haze, I promised to not post here 'till I completed said task, so let's see now.
First of, I would like to say that this is by no means a "mega salamence is not broken git gud" message, I dislike this kind of message, even if someone doesn't have problems against a certain threat, it doesn't mean that said threat isn't unhealthy for the metagame, let's say that an objective approach is better than a subjective one.

I simply see it so that my experiences have brought me to this opinion, while yours experiences have brought you another opinion, I also tend to have an anti-ban mentality most of the time, as I consider the ban the last solution to bring in, if the metagame failed to adapt to a certain threat.

Of course, that also goes for the other side of the coin, players here are laddering in order to get Reqs and are doing so not to show off, they are doing this because they believe that said threat is a problem to the competitiveness and they have no problem doing 30+ battles in order to get reqs, and help making said metagame better, this should be respected, no matter what's your opinion on the current suspect.

Having said that, I'm kind of like a black sheep atm, after laddering I'm not convinced that mmence is unhealthy.

It basically boills down to Redirection, Unpredictability, Overcentralization and Abuse in intimidate in order to gain easier set up time.
Well, it's true, megasalamence is unpredictable but unpredictability here in doubles doesn't have the same extend it has in singles, yes 120 aerilate satk is good, but when you consider that spread moves like Hyper Voice do less damage than normally for the nature of the format itself, and the fact that you can't equip a choice specs or life orb like you could do with say Sylveon the power starts to fade.

It is no coincidence that majority of Salamence are physical, looking at the usage stats (yes I know, usages aren't the end of it all, but other than that, laddering, and watching other good players battle you can't do much, especially since Doubles sadly does not have the same userbase of Singles).
This also helps more, a good deal of people believe that physical mence is more fitting for their team other than a special or hey even a mixed one.
We should also consider the fact that doubles has many 'mons with protect, protect helps scouting the opponent set, of course, it also brings problematics like allowing Salamence free set up, but tbh it doesn't spell immediate doom for someone, having also the possibility of targeting a 'mon with two of yours also helps big time minimizing set up opportunities.

Intimidate is a great ability, no question about it, it is one of the reasons why Bisharp is so high atm, and Salamence isn't the only intimidate user mind you, there is also Milotic, a bit underrated but a solid competitive user, also thanks to access to icy wind that should see more use (both milotic and the move) but I digress, yes, intimidate has always been a great ability in doubles, and helps gaining easy set up but it's also punishable by the previous mentioned Bisharp and Milotic, or simply put and much more commonly useless against a special threat (just like burning a special Salamence, it works the same).

Redirection well, let's check the competitive follow me users atm:
Togekiss, Jirachi, Amoonguss Volcarona and... that's pretty much it, I do not remember other competitive follow me/rage powder users, correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Now Volcarona shares a terrible rock weakness with salamence, also majority of rock types attack aka rock slide are spread moves, so rp doesn't work at all, the same goes to togekiss, who also shares an ice weakness, making it even more troublesome taking hits for salamence, there is also icy wind that will drop both opponents speed to consider, same with amoonguss who is ice weak, though bulky the more noteworthy follow me user for salamence is jirachi, which shares a great sinergy with him, so in a way when we say redirection I cannot help but think about this core, sure amoonguss helps a bit if you're up against trick room, but Jirachi's sinergy pays off, oh and the googles/grass types, that is also very important.

The funny thing about redirection is that it works both ways with the only difference that due to salamence's type he's more weak to it due to spread moves like sylveon/gardevoir hyper voice, rock slide, icy wind etc, while salamence's returns only hits one target, for example, I could use another follow me jirachi coupled with Sylveon orb/specs in order to even hit under a substitute, while jirachi will take the flying/poison/steel attacks, and at the same time Sylveon not being stopped by follow me will finish megamence.

Jirachi+Sylveon are just two already good 'mons that I thought about in this instant, there might be other examples like them, bottom line is that megamence is yes, godly but it has flaws, it suffers redirection just as it likes it, it suffers intimidate from lantherian/other just as he likes to use intimidate before mega evolving, and unpredictability can only get you so far, especially when a good deal of Megamence are physical anyways.

As for overcentralization, well... is that really a bad thing? If the metagame becomes more "centralized" to specific threats you, as a builder will have to take care of less threats when you'll build your doubles team, I'll go ahead and say that this is the major problem in Singles OU, the more threat you have to take care of the more matchup reliant the metagame is, I don't have problems if the presence of a specific threat "centralize" the metagame over some 'mons and moves.

It's not that megakhan wasn't on majority of teams long before, terrakion is still a good fighting type that packs a punch against both kanga and salamence, mega metagross while not a fight type thanks to its bulk (and also clear body before mega evolving btw) act as a nice check to kanga (beware of +2 sucker punch, though yeah, bullet punch from megagross stops sucker) and doesn't let you lose momentum against mega mence, both are also greatly affected by intimidate from users like lantherian, megamawile, salamence itself etc, doubles is different from singles, you're not required to overprepare yourself against some threats.
Grass Type will lose usage? Eh, it happens, Shaymin Sky is still a top tier threat at the moment, oh and Ludicolo under rain with support moves like fake out and helping hand is anything but useless, not to mention amoonguss and breloom, really they are 18 types, grass are fine.

But still, I'm also not convinced about Mega Salamence being that much overcentralizating, I think Kanga does this job better, if Salamence was truly "overcentralizating" the metagame we would have seen more moves like icy wind, who not only ignores follow me, but strikes megamence on a x4 weakness and will always drop speed on things like Politoed, Keldeo, Jirachi etc with the sole purpouse to minimize set up chances for megasalamence, ok sure it's weak, but you don't use this move in order to kill stuff, you use it to keep momentum, and keep your opponent on his toes, not to mention trick room which completely gives the middle finger to Salamence hasn't seen THAT much use, so I don't think that Salamence truly overcentralizate the metagame, but even if it did, I wouldn't mind it at all.

That's my two cents.
Oh and yeah, like others I am not 100% on the Anti Ban Side, I might change my opinions.

audio edit: god hates awful formatting and spelling mistakes. i spaced it a little for you but next time it will be an infraction so please be more mindful of other readers in the future

 

[Laga]

essay

yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to please make some paragraphs. I really do want to read this, but I can't make myself do it without some spacing :(

Edit: if you do I'll edit my comments on your post into this post

 

[Hashtag]

As for overcentralization, well... is that really a bad thing? If the metagame becomes more "centralized" to specific threats you, as a builder will have to take care of less threats when you'll build your doubles team,

the more centralized around a specific threat a metagame is, the more matchup-reliant games become.

for example, player 1 brings a bunch of mons that aren't very good at anything other than checking metagame-defining mons. (avalugg amirite!!!!)
Player 2 does not bring any of the mons player 1 is trying to check, but has generally better pokemon.
Player 3 has mence

here you get a rock paper scissors effect whereas 3>2>1>3 in terms of team matchup

Obviously this is very simplified, but i think you get the point. By freeing up team slots which would otherwise be used to check mence, players are able to check a higher percentage of threats, resulting in what we hope is a more balanced metagame, which should be the goal.

 

[ratdog356]

I don't really think Mega Salamence is as broken as some people are making it out to be. Sure it is versatile, sure it hits like a truck. But you have to consider that is has a lot more weaknesses than another powerhouse mega known as Kangaskhan who actually got a lot more moves to work with thanks to the ORAS move tutors.

Stuff like Suicune, Milotic, and others can take any one hit from Salamence and then OHKO back with Ice Beam. Sure, Salamence teams can run redirection (they should, or they're doing it wrong). But Amoonguss + Kangaskhan or Follow Me support + a super powerful mega is nothing new from before and not to mention Icy Wind helps control the speed and you always have the Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus.

Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp helps check physical sets. I could go on about it.

Like, Mega Kangaskhan is a lot harder to deal with and if that is still in the tier, then Mega Salamence should stay too in my opinion. A myriad of ways to check the myriad potential sets a Salamence could carry.

I agree with you. I don't have that much trouble dealing with mega salamence myself. I use trick room with porygon 2 and mega mawile. Under trick room, I can double attack mega mence with both mawile and porygon to make sure it dies. Even if porygon is to die, i have another trick room user in aromatisse with dazzling gleam. Another team i regularly use that can deal with mega mence is my rain team. I usually lead with kingdra and politoed. I can usually kill mega mence with ice beam/draco meteor from kingdra and if that fail, i have politoed with icy wind to slow it down, if it doesn't die after kingdra attacks it. Although it is not a problem for me, that might be because both my teams are sort of anti-mega mence in a way since i have three fairies on my trick room team. Them being sylveon, aromatisse, and mawile.

 

[13ulbasaur]

Y-You don't have trouble dealing with mega mence because you use Trick Room with 3 fairy types and a super bulky ice beamer. And then you have a rain team which means super speed control + more ice everywhere.

Well gee if I used those team I wouldn't have a problem either.
If we all just use TR teams or rain teams we'll have no problems with Mence. You're all silly. ^_^



Also i just really really wanted to post my amazing photoshop skills here. (disclaimer:I don't really have an opinion on whether mence should be banned or not i just really wanted to post this)

Hide

 

[Yellow Paint]

"doubles is different from singles, you're not required to overprepare yourself against some threats."

Wow. Amy Sorel, I think have a lot to disagree with that post, but this is what strikes most with me. I'm not saying that mence is flat out broken, but you actually are required to overprepare for mence, if not bring more checks than I'm comfortable with in dubs. Doubles has proven to be a very stable meta in xy, but mence really tips the scale. In order to not get completely ruined by mence+redirect, you're saying you have to bring se spread and a redirector of your own, or some other combination of two mons that we haven't figured out yet. Being forced to bring out two specific counters, which can be dealt with by other partners with mence, means it is necessary to overprepare for mence.

Also, you speak about mence possibly lowering the usage of grass types, but you don't mention many fighting types like hitmontop and scrafty who simply can't perform their roles as support mons with the introduction of mence.

 

[Miridy]

the more centralized around a specific threat a metagame is, the more matchup-reliant games become.

for example, player 1 brings a bunch of mons that aren't very good at anything other than checking metagame-defining mons. (avalugg amirite!!!!)
Player 2 does not bring any of the mons player 1 is trying to check, but has generally better pokemon.
Player 3 has mence

here you get a rock paper scissors effect whereas 3>2>1>3 in terms of team matchup

Obviously this is very simplified, but i think you get the point. By freeing up team slots which would otherwise be used to check mence, players are able to check a higher percentage of threats, resulting in what we hope is a more balanced metagame, which should be the goal.

I see what you mean, yes, if we ban MMence we won't have to obviously "waste" slots on checking him, but isn't the same also applicable if the Metagame isn't "centralized"?
Let's take for example XY OU after Aegislash ban, Aegislash hindered a great deal of 'mons like mega medicham, mega gardevoir, mega heracross, mega pinsir etc, after he got banned these four megas skyrocketed in usage, and all four of them weren't that easy to stop.
For example, let's say I wanted a way to check mega medicham, and I pick either Slowbro or Stallbreaking Mew, they help me against mega medicham yes, but are bait against taunt/cm mega gardevoir, giving this dangerous mega setup, or Doublade who gives setup to another scary wallbreaking 'mon in landorus-incarnate, yet I still have 6 slots and I cannot cover everything, so I will lose to something in the long run, in this case isn't pretty much the same if not worse? A diverse metagame with many things that are "dangerous" and usable and me as a teambuilder, who only has 6 slots in order to cover things, don't I end up picking my own matchups too? Though mega gardevoir, medicham etc, are less used than mega salamence here in doubles (albeit, this is an hypothetical scenario, as I don't see megamence that overcentralizing) but still top ou worthy, in this case, if the metagame is centralized among a specific choice of threats (in the example, megamence, what checks megamence etc) isn't it better for me as a builder since I have less things to consider and then take care of?

"doubles is different from singles, you're not required to overprepare yourself against some threats."

Wow. Amy Sorel, I think have a lot to disagree with that post, but this is what strikes most with me. I'm not saying that mence is flat out broken, but you actually are required to overprepare for mence, if not bring more checks than I'm comfortable with in dubs. Doubles has proven to be a very stable meta in xy, but mence really tips the scale. In order to not get completely ruined by mence+redirect, you're saying you have to bring se spread and a redirector of your own, or some other combination of two mons that we haven't figured out yet. Being forced to bring out two specific counters, which can be dealt with by other partners with mence, means it is necessary to overprepare for mence.

Also, you speak about mence possibly lowering the usage of grass types, but you don't mention many fighting types like hitmontop and scrafty who simply can't perform their roles as support mons with the introduction of mence.

I mentioned grass types because it is what I saw atm in the thread, if some specific 'mons regardless of their type drops because of a powerful threat it doesn't mean at least in my opinion that we have to "help" said "nerfed" 'mons, or take it as a sign that the metagame is unhealthy, as for fighting types per se, I already said that Terrakion is still solid, Conkeldurr likes trick room support, which gives you "speed control" over megamence, hitmontop while nerfed is still a great choice, since you get a fake out, wide guard and intimidate user in one package, Keldeo is still used, and has ironically speaking great sinergy with Jirachi and access to icy wind too, another fighter who hasn't become completely useless because of Salamence, and Scrafty still sits close with Hitmontop, and assault vest and Ice Punch saw some rise in usage

 

[Stratos]

Doubles has proven to be a very stable meta in xy, but mence really tips the scale.

edit: thoughts on mence.

I'm really not sure; I think it's broken, but I'm not confident enough to vote ban without letting the meta develop for more than a month.

Basically the main problem with mence is there's only like 10 or less Pokemon that actually straight up beat it. Then probably like 1/2 of the metagame is able to force a trade—if mence sets up, it will die, so it has to attack, in which case the mon itself might be trashed but its partner can probably do something to help. Maybe 1/6 of the meta mence can set up on, but will eventually beat it if mence keeps not targetting it. Then the remaining portion of the metagame Mence can safely ignore.

Honestly, those categories can apply to about any setup sweeper. The thing about mence is that due to its ridiculous speed, you can only beat mence if you can tank it, and that unlike Kang, who has basically nobody in Group 4, Mence has a lot of pokemon there.

The problem is really exacerbated by Jirachi, who moves a lot of camps 1 and 2 into camp 3. Fortunately, Jirachi is a lot better on paper than it is in practice, so you can often isolate the Mence from its FM support. But it really forces the gameplan every time to be about luring and eliminating jirachi and making sure mence never gets an opportunity to come in.

The fortunate thing is that teams which rely on Mence to be there early or mid game really have trouble setting him up, and that there's a lot of pokemon in mence's group 2 whereas kang has a lot more in group 3.

 

[Hashtag]

yeah that's a true post, you raise a lot of good points. I'd like to elaborate specifically on group 2, the group of mons that beat mence if it tries to set up, causing it to attack them instead. One of the first mons that comes to mind from that description is conkeldurr, which beats mence with ice punch, but goes down to any flying stab, so for clarity, i will be using him in my example.

the situation you described involves salamence and another mon, versus conkeldurr, and another mon which is specifically able to one-shot salamence, otherwise it would not be a worthwhile trade. First of all, this essentially means you need two group 2 mons in order to check mence in this way, but this setup puts a lot of pressure on the conkeldurr user, and barely any on the mence user, as he is still allowed to have any teammate to mess up the system. Mence can sub up, or protect, to allow his teammate to destroy one of the threats that seem to be double targeting him here. Furthermore, if it pans out the way the conkeldurr user wants, the game continues, and he is given a fighting chance to survive, whereas if the salamence user wins, he quickly runs away with the game.

It is a real problem that the mence opponent has to apply a lot of pressure just to prevent mence from setting up, whereas mence can still be a completely productive member of the team without doing so.

These are just my thoughts, lmk if i'm an idiot.

 

[Roxer]

Ok this discussion is getting quite big and I'm lost, can someone reply to this with all anti-ban arguments?

 

[shaian]

Ok this discussion is getting quite big and I'm lost, can someone reply to this with all anti-ban arguments?

1. Weak to common attacks like Ice Beam, Rock Slide / Stone Edge, Hyper Voice. Things like Milotic, Suicune, Sylveon can all handle unboosted Mence.

2. Weak to status moves like Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp.

3. Weak to speed control, particularly Trick Room.

4. Needs to boost to become broken, as well as have redirection.

5. "Broken" sets are weak to Intimidate, and the special set isn't that potent, though I haven't tried that one yet.

6. 4MSS.

That's all the ones I've found so far.

 

[Hypercut]

Ok, I've finished both ladders, now I'm going to give my opinion.
Mega Salamence has huge stats, raised a lot from its normal form, and thanks to its ability, it's one of the most powerful sweepers with an insane atk and spe stat. In doubles can be supported by redicrectional attacks like Rage Powder or Follow Me, giving it a chance to easily stat up and sweep. Main Pokemons that can support Salamence are Jirachi and Amoonguss, Togekiss is also good, but it has a bad weak to Rock-type attacks, so Rock Slide hits it badly, remember that Landorus-T is present in a lot of teams. After the boost, Salamence outspeeds any existent Scarf user aside from gimmicks, and it can OHKO a lot of things, Return of Double Edge are both hard to take. It has no specific counters, because of its great sets variety, only some checks like Aegislash, Rotom-W, and some Flying-type resistors, but the second its 2HKO by +1 Return.
Ok, I'm going to end this: there are a lot of gimmick ways to kill it, but its unhealthy for this metagame, and doesn't have checks that can handle its attacks very well, so I think it should be banned.

 

[Honus]

Hello, I just finished getting reqs for my two alts, Timber Arc and To Haze, I promised to not post here 'till I completed said task, so let's see now.
First of, I would like to say that this is by no means a "mega salamence is not broken git gud" message, I dislike this kind of message, even if someone doesn't have problems against a certain threat, it doesn't mean that said threat isn't unhealthy for the metagame, let's say that an objective approach is better than a subjective one.

I simply see it so that my experiences have brought me to this opinion, while yours experiences have brought you another opinion, I also tend to have an anti-ban mentality most of the time, as I consider the ban the last solution to bring in, if the metagame failed to adapt to a certain threat.

Of course, that also goes for the other side of the coin, players here are laddering in order to get Reqs and are doing so not to show off, they are doing this because they believe that said threat is a problem to the competitiveness and they have no problem doing 30+ battles in order to get reqs, and help making said metagame better, this should be respected, no matter what's your opinion on the current suspect.

Having said that, I'm kind of like a black sheep atm, after laddering I'm not convinced that mmence is unhealthy.

It basically boills down to Redirection, Unpredictability, Overcentralization and Abuse in intimidate in order to gain easier set up time.
Well, it's true, megasalamence is unpredictable but unpredictability here in doubles doesn't have the same extend it has in singles, yes 120 aerilate satk is good, but when you consider that spread moves like Hyper Voice do less damage than normally for the nature of the format itself, and the fact that you can't equip a choice specs or life orb like you could do with say Sylveon the power starts to fade.

It is no coincidence that majority of Salamence are physical, looking at the usage stats (yes I know, usages aren't the end of it all, but other than that, laddering, and watching other good players battle you can't do much, especially since Doubles sadly does not have the same userbase of Singles).
This also helps more, a good deal of people believe that physical mence is more fitting for their team other than a special or hey even a mixed one.
We should also consider the fact that doubles has many 'mons with protect, protect helps scouting the opponent set, of course, it also brings problematics like allowing Salamence free set up, but tbh it doesn't spell immediate doom for someone, having also the possibility of targeting a 'mon with two of yours also helps big time minimizing set up opportunities.

Intimidate is a great ability, no question about it, it is one of the reasons why Bisharp is so high atm, and Salamence isn't the only intimidate user mind you, there is also Milotic, a bit underrated but a solid competitive user, also thanks to access to icy wind that should see more use (both milotic and the move) but I digress, yes, intimidate has always been a great ability in doubles, and helps gaining easy set up but it's also punishable by the previous mentioned Bisharp and Milotic, or simply put and much more commonly useless against a special threat (just like burning a special Salamence, it works the same).

Redirection well, let's check the competitive follow me users atm:
Togekiss, Jirachi, Amoonguss Volcarona and... that's pretty much it, I do not remember other competitive follow me/rage powder users, correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Now Volcarona shares a terrible rock weakness with salamence, also majority of rock types attack aka rock slide are spread moves, so rp doesn't work at all, the same goes to togekiss, who also shares an ice weakness, making it even more troublesome taking hits for salamence, there is also icy wind that will drop both opponents speed to consider, same with amoonguss who is ice weak, though bulky the more noteworthy follow me user for salamence is jirachi, which shares a great sinergy with him, so in a way when we say redirection I cannot help but think about this core, sure amoonguss helps a bit if you're up against trick room, but Jirachi's sinergy pays off, oh and the googles/grass types, that is also very important.

The funny thing about redirection is that it works both ways with the only difference that due to salamence's type he's more weak to it due to spread moves like sylveon/gardevoir hyper voice, rock slide, icy wind etc, while salamence's returns only hits one target, for example, I could use another follow me jirachi coupled with Sylveon orb/specs in order to even hit under a substitute, while jirachi will take the flying/poison/steel attacks, and at the same time Sylveon not being stopped by follow me will finish megamence.

Jirachi+Sylveon are just two already good 'mons that I thought about in this instant, there might be other examples like them, bottom line is that megamence is yes, godly but it has flaws, it suffers redirection just as it likes it, it suffers intimidate from lantherian/other just as he likes to use intimidate before mega evolving, and unpredictability can only get you so far, especially when a good deal of Megamence are physical anyways.

As for overcentralization, well... is that really a bad thing? If the metagame becomes more "centralized" to specific threats you, as a builder will have to take care of less threats when you'll build your doubles team, I'll go ahead and say that this is the major problem in Singles OU, the more threat you have to take care of the more matchup reliant the metagame is, I don't have problems if the presence of a specific threat "centralize" the metagame over some 'mons and moves.

It's not that megakhan wasn't on majority of teams long before, terrakion is still a good fighting type that packs a punch against both kanga and salamence, mega metagross while not a fight type thanks to its bulk (and also clear body before mega evolving btw) act as a nice check to kanga (beware of +2 sucker punch, though yeah, bullet punch from megagross stops sucker) and doesn't let you lose momentum against mega mence, both are also greatly affected by intimidate from users like lantherian, megamawile, salamence itself etc, doubles is different from singles, you're not required to overprepare yourself against some threats.
Grass Type will lose usage? Eh, it happens, Shaymin Sky is still a top tier threat at the moment, oh and Ludicolo under rain with support moves like fake out and helping hand is anything but useless, not to mention amoonguss and breloom, really they are 18 types, grass are fine.

But still, I'm also not convinced about Mega Salamence being that much overcentralizating, I think Kanga does this job better, if Salamence was truly "overcentralizating" the metagame we would have seen more moves like icy wind, who not only ignores follow me, but strikes megamence on a x4 weakness and will always drop speed on things like Politoed, Keldeo, Jirachi etc with the sole purpouse to minimize set up chances for megasalamence, ok sure it's weak, but you don't use this move in order to kill stuff, you use it to keep momentum, and keep your opponent on his toes, not to mention trick room which completely gives the middle finger to Salamence hasn't seen THAT much use, so I don't think that Salamence truly overcentralizate the metagame, but even if it did, I wouldn't mind it at all.

That's my two cents.
Oh and yeah, like others I am not 100% on the Anti Ban Side, I might change my opinions.

audio edit: god hates awful formatting and spelling mistakes. i spaced it a little for you but next time it will be an infraction so please be more mindful of other readers in the future

I think this is a really nice anti-ban post and you record on ladder speaks louder than grammatical errors due to not being a native speaker so I wouldn't worry about that. I think the main argument I disagree with is overcentralization being healthy for the doubles metagame. In my mind there is centralization, which is when there's a modest amount of top Pokemon in a tier that consistently perform and are used often on teams since they are of a high caliber. The tier will still be kept interesting because there's often 40+ Pokemon that are consistently excellent with even more variety in differing builds and the occasional antimetagame Pokemon. When there are too many excellent Pokemon, however, there becomes a point where one team of 6 Pokemon can't possibly beat every potential excellent Pokemon that an opponent could put on their team, which is why centralization is good, in my opinion at least. Overcentralization is a different beast. Overcentralization is basically what Doubles has going on with Mega Salamence [and ORAS OU had before the mence got banned], where one Pokemon or a set of Pokemon are so much better than the top Pokemon in a tier, that they appear on teams very frequently, and most teams have both the super strong Pokemon and a bunch of stuff dedicated to countering them. This makes teambuilding stale and the overcentralized meta eventually becomes boring to play as its just battles of attrition with broken Pokemon. As Philosophist said, a lot of Pokemon have their viability lowered in an overcentralized metagame. After Aegislash was banned in XY OU, many Psychic/Fighting types became more viable and led to new options for teams to utilize.

The fact that redirection works against the mence is interesting but I think that applies to most Pokemon in doubles. I feel like he benefits more from redirection than he loses from playing against it. The scenario you described is pretty specific, honestly it's pretty tailor made to counter mega salamence. I mean if it's just a follow me Jirachi with a Pokemon without any spread move to kill mega salamence, then salamence's partner uses redirection and then salamence sets up or attacks as usual. I guess I'm being a little hypocritical here since it's sometimes hard to find a perfect scenario for mega salamence where neither the mence nor his redirector partner can be KOd, but I think it is still easier to create than a scenario where mega salamence is flat out knocked out in one turn, especially due to Mega Salamence's great synergy with Jirachi. Not to mention even one turn of redirection, even if it it ends up being sacrificial and salamence's jirachi partner dies to a fire attack, can mean one dragon dance, which could certainly turn the tide of a battle.

 

[Haki]

Overcentralization is a different beast. Overcentralization is basically what Doubles has going on with Mega Salamence [and ORAS OU had before the mence got banned], where one Pokemon or a set of Pokemon are so much better than the top Pokemon in a tier, that they appear on teams very frequently, and most teams have both the super strong Pokemon and a bunch of stuff dedicated to countering them. This makes teambuilding stale and the overcentralized meta eventually becomes boring to play as its just battles of attrition with broken Pokemon.

I would just like to clarify Mega Salamence isn't overcentralizing in the Doubles metagame at all. You stated that overcentralization is where a certain Pokemon appears commonly on teams, and where most teams have prepared certain counters to deal with that threat. What is happening in the Doubles metagame right now is the complete opposite, and here's why:

1. Out of the 85 matches I have played on the Smogon Doubles Current ladder, I have literally encountered only 4 or 5 teams with Mega Salamence.

2. Personally, I don't run a specific counter or check on my team to deal with Mega Salamence. Sure, I run HP Ice Aegislash, but that's also a reason to deal with common Doubles threats such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc. I have an uncommon move on Aegislash for Flying-, Dragon-, and Ground-type coverage in general, but I did not add that to its moveset simply to deal with Mega Salamence. I'm pretty sure many other Doubles players don't dedicate a specific Pokemon to handle Mega Mence.

3. Teambuilding is definitely not stale because not many players decide to put Mega Salamence on every single team. Like I stated in my first point, I rarely encountered a team with Mega Salamence. In fact, I still saw Mega Kangaskhan on most of the teams I battled on the ladder.

But as with your other points in your post above, I have to agree with you, especially with the notion that Jirachi and redirectors in general benefit Mega Salamence more than other Pokemon.

Still on the fence in this discussion.

 

[Laga]

1. Out of the 85 matches I have played on the Smogon Doubles Current ladder, I have literally encountered only 4 or 5 teams with Mega Salamence.

3. Teambuilding is definitely not stale because not many players decide to put Mega Salamence on every single team. Like I stated in my first point, I rarely encountered a team with Mega Salamence. In fact, I still see Mega Kangaskhan on most of the teams I encountered on the ladder.

Just wanna point out that these two points aren't because of mence not being as good as people make it seem, but rather how 95+% of decent-good players tend to just use their main ladder team (Kanga + spread spam) to storm through the ladder while already having decided on their opinion of mence before even laddering. This is quite sad to see, as it results in people entering this discussion extremely biased with just theoretical calcs and situations to build arguments off of instead of concrete evidence in quality replays. This is probably because of how new the metagame is :[

Your second point is a very viable anti ban idea though. Pokemon that run specific sets to beat Salamence almost always deal with Lando-T and Garchomp, two other mons that absolutely need to be covered. This definitely makes dealing with mence easier, as I can also confirm from using HP Ice Blaziken myself and facing HP Ice Aegis with a Mence team.

 

[Not Canadian]

1. Out of the 85 matches I have played on the Smogon Doubles Current ladder, I have literally encountered only 4 or 5 teams with Mega Salamence.

Except this tends to be the case in like every suspect test, which gives us an insight completely different from what you're trying to say. During the M-Kanga retest, I was irritated by this point because it meant I had to go around the Doubles room actually looking for people who would use M-Kanga so I could form an opinion on it.
Although I decided in the end that it wasn't all that bad (and the results of the suspect tended in that direction), the same general logic applies here. What's happening is that you're considering M-Mence in the context of the current ladder, which, being in a suspect test, places greater emphasis on its use and as such people tend to prepare, or more commonly, overprepare for it. The same thing happened during OU's Baton Pass test, in which a rock-paper-scissors dynamic flourished: counter to BP (usually) beats BP, BP beats ordinary OU team, and OU team beats counter to BP team (this being a suboptimal OU team that had to fit a counter in to specifically deal with BP). Ladder usage ≠ proper usage. In other words, I don't see the merit of what you've just posted.

Back to normal Doubles, though, let's assume M-Mence stays unbanned. My take on this is that if it is in fact broken and we made a mistake in not banning it, the same rock-paper-scissors dynamic I've described will come into play. If it isn't broken, we have doubles as it were, really, but since it is a beast on par with, or as some believe, better than M-Kanga, Doubles might see more emphasis on team matchups as opposed to skill, but nothing that breaks the meta.

3. Teambuilding is definitely not stale because not many players decide to put Mega Salamence on every single team. Like I stated in my first point, I rarely encountered a team with Mega Salamence. In fact, I still see Mega Kangaskhan on most of the teams I encountered on the ladder.

So in other words this is Doubles circa post M-Kanga retest and sans fairy spam. Sounds stale to me; I kind of expected ORAS to, you know, change the meta.

Just kidding. See above, though. The teams play in a vacuum where M-Mence doesn't usually show, but it's always there, an implicit threat. I'd be more interested in seeing M-Mence outside the context of this suspect.

Anyway, if you might have noticed, I am still very much on the fence about M-Mence's actual potential, which is why I've skirted over actually going through what makes it good and what doesn't (redirection definitely is not an argument, though - fuck that). Just thought I'd go through some of the arguments Pinoy Pwnage brought up.

As for your second point though, that's definitely something to consider. I don't recall having to bring anything specific - so the question then is whether M-Mence can just storm through them in spite of that. One of the problems with Mence is that it suffers from some 4MSS that it doesn't have in singles. It also tends to be a set-up oriented Pokemon (ith Sub + DD commonly brought up) which is probably why all those "b-but muh Follow Me and Rage Powder!" arguments pop up - and in doubles, where the emphasis is more on immediate power projection this is a fair point.

I'm very slightly leaning towards ban, but that's likely to change when I actually play someone who uses M-Mence.