Pent
dumb broad
True, I forgot about that set .~.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
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Ok yes, Zygarde has checks and counters and a 4x weakness to Ice Moves, but what mon doesn't have checks and counters? The fact of the matter is, is that Zygarde is a fantastic win condition vs basically every archetype of play, whether it's sub coil or DD, and sets up on numerous mons thanks to its bulk and resistances.
I don't think there has been any mon with 30% usage in the tier in quite awhile, if ever. Gonna leave some kinda usage statistic below to show how much a 30% usage And I also want to stress the importance that usage does not equal viability, yes they do correlate somewhat, but it is not a direct relationship.
1 | Jirachi | 17.46226% | 25648 | 10.643% | 20936 | 10.771%
^the most used uu pokemon in November for 1630 statistics, barely half of 30% http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-11/uu-1630.txt
Stay S Rank
Honestly, after reading the arguments about Roserade I want to argue that it should drop a rank. Roserade's most common role in the tier is as a hazard layer/offensive pivot that can deal with bulky waters. However, Roserade suffers from a multitude of things that happened with the onset of the ORAS metagame.
Hazard Setter:
First, we saw the loss of the most prominent spinblocker in the tier, Sableye. This is a problem for every hazard setter, but especially so for hazards that take more than one turn to fully set up (spikes, tspikes). Spinning isn't the primary way to remove hazards in this metagame though. Every common defogger in the tier beats Roserade 1vs1. Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs, Aero outspeeds and OHKOs, Gligar defogs for free as it fears nothing from Roserade, Empoleon does the same. So the point of this whole argument here is that it has no way to keep its hazards on the field even though they take more than one turn to set up.
Offensive Pivot:
Roserade really is not the greatest offensive pivot either. When looking at the Pokémon in the A rank on the viability rankings, Roserade can safely switch in and force out only a handful. Going further down the list reveals the Fairy-types who arguably preserve Roserade's niche in the meta. However, Poison resists are not hard to come by and almost every team has one or more very solid switch ins to Rose regardless of what it can come in on for free. Moreso, Fairies are definitely on the decline. Even so, its horrid defense stat prevents it from even coming in for free against Swampert who deals roughly 60% even without offensive investment. Roserade also faces stiff competition from the likes of Shaymin and Celebi who can provide similar amounts of team support with Baton Pass and Healing Wish while having much better overall bulk.
In summation, Roserade, while by no means a bad pokemon in the metagame, has suffered from the same fate that many hazard layers have faced. Being beat by every common defogger in conjunction with the tiers lack of a reliable spin blocker limit the utility provided a Spikes or Toxic Spikes set. The offensive pivot fails to come in safely vs many top tier threats and its speed tier falls short of what is normally required for an offensive mon at the moment. Roserade is still a viable choice but falls far from the A- benchmark for me. Roserade to B+
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I think it should be A-. It does have hard checks, such as Jirachi and the like, but even then it can run HP Fire or Technician boosted HP Fire. I know that the defoggers beat Roserade, but the most common would probably be Crobat, which can be lured in with LO Extrasensory.from A- > B+
Honestly, after reading the arguments about Roserade I want to argue that it should drop a rank. Roserade's most common role in the tier is as a hazard layer/offensive pivot that can deal with bulky waters. However, Roserade suffers from a multitude of things that happened with the onset of the ORAS metagame.
Hazard Setter:
First, we saw the loss of the most prominent spinblocker in the tier, Sableye. This is a problem for every hazard setter, but especially so for hazards that take more than one turn to fully set up (spikes, tspikes). Spinning isn't the primary way to remove hazards in this metagame though. Every common defogger in the tier beats Roserade 1vs1. Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs, Aero outspeeds and OHKOs, Gligar defogs for free as it fears nothing from Roserade, Empoleon does the same. So the point of this whole argument here is that it has no way to keep its hazards on the field even though they take more than one turn to set up.
Offensive Pivot:
Roserade really is not the greatest offensive pivot either. When looking at the Pokémon in the A rank on the viability rankings, Roserade can safely switch in and force out only a handful. Going further down the list reveals the Fairy-types who arguably preserve Roserade's niche in the meta. However, Poison resists are not hard to come by and almost every team has one or more very solid switch ins to Rose regardless of what it can come in on for free. Moreso, Fairies are definitely on the decline. Even so, its horrid defense stat prevents it from even coming in for free against Swampert who deals roughly 60% even without offensive investment. Roserade also faces stiff competition from the likes of Shaymin and Celebi who can provide similar amounts of team support with Baton Pass and Healing Wish while having much better overall bulk.
In summation, Roserade, while by no means a bad pokemon in the metagame, has suffered from the same fate that many hazard layers have faced. Being beat by every common defogger in conjunction with the tiers lack of a reliable spin blocker limit the utility provided a Spikes or Toxic Spikes set. The offensive pivot fails to come in safely vs many top tier threats and its speed tier falls short of what is normally required for an offensive mon at the moment. Roserade is still a viable choice but falls far from the A- benchmark for me. Roserade to B+
The fact that Roserade is a great check to every water and every relevant fairy type in the tier is enough for it to be A- imo. If it is LO, with just a little bit of prior damage, it can destroy +1 or +2 Suicine, beat Vaperon, and soak up electric hits from Raikou. Although it may lose to defoggers, Roserade can beat a lot of SR setters, such as Hippo, Swampert, Donphan, Forretress (with hp fire), and Nidoqueen (LO Leaf Storm does like 85% or something).
I just don't think Roserade should drop to B+. It simply performs its role better than the B+ mon, like blissey being a wall, Rotom-H being some sort of pivot, darm being a wallbreaker.
*shrugs*
In addition, does it lose to EVERY Defogger, or Crobat who is the most popular and (admittedly) best Defogger? The only other I can think off immediately is Togetic, who Roserade certainly doesn't struggle against.
One of the problems I see with rade going to B+ is that it actually fulfills its role quite well with little to no support. Rade serves as the token special sponge that can actually deal with fairies and bulky ground types. It's poor defensive stat may be a hindrance, but access to different moves such as sleep powder, spikes/t-spikes/standard strong stab moves and abilities such as natural cure and technician gives rade all it needs to stand up to many A threats.
Yes, it may lose to a couple of the threats in the B range, but that's not really an argument - everything is weak to something, and we all know rade as its fair share of weaknesses. The difference between rade and many of the B+s is that it has a diverse enough movepool to cause hesitation, which give it the opportunity to utilize its desired effects (whether it be hazard, offense, or passive utility). Roserade deserves the A- for now, imo.
Yes, it may lose to a couple of the threats in the B range, but that's not really an argument - everything is weak to something, and we all know rade as its fair share of weaknesses. The difference between rade and many of the B+s is that it has a diverse enough movepool to cause hesitation, which give it the opportunity to utilize its desired effects (whether it be hazard, offense, or passive utility). Roserade deserves the A- for now, imo.
The tier shift might give us Mandibuzz, who's immune to Sleep Powder thanks to Overcoat.
I feel like Forretress should go up to B+ rank, because it's just such a reliable mon. It glues together so many teams with it's combination of bulk, great typing, being able to set hazards and being one of the most reliable defensive Rapid Spinners in the tier. It definitely has its fair share of checks and counters, but the aforementioned bulk and typing causes a lot of things to have to switch out, giving it plenty of opportunities to set up rocks. Like Blissey it is desirable because it can often set up rocks multiple times in a match, especially since Crobat, the most popular defogger in the tier, can't really do anything to it. It's also really benefited from Sableye's departure from the tier, being the most popular ghost type and all.
Yeah so I'd like to nominate our boy Linda
from B ---> B+
Fletchinder wrecks offensive teams. If given the chance to set up a swords dance, it can OHKO most offensive threats after Stealth Rocks and proceed to sweep. In addition, there are so many great wallbreakers in this meta, such as Guts Machamp, Entei, Krookodile, and the Nidos, which break down the defensive things stopping Fletchinder from sweeping. Linda also forces a lot of switches, so it often gets the chance to set up. In a blazingly fast meta, Fletchinder finds itself being the best revenge killer you can get, outspeeding everything that doesn't have priority. It also beats Scarf Rachi 1v1 if it doesn't have zen headbutt, and megazam can never OHKO if you are running bulk and it is running timid psyshock.
The main things stopping this from going any higher than B+ is that it needs walls broken down before it can sweep, plus the prevalence of bulky setup sweepers like Suicune and Zyggy. The SR weakness doesn't help. However, since it does it job so damn well, I believe it should rise to B+.
Fletchinder wrecks offensive teams. If given the chance to set up a swords dance, it can OHKO most offensive threats after Stealth Rocks and proceed to sweep. In addition, there are so many great wallbreakers in this meta, such as Guts Machamp, Entei, Krookodile, and the Nidos, which break down the defensive things stopping Fletchinder from sweeping. Linda also forces a lot of switches, so it often gets the chance to set up. In a blazingly fast meta, Fletchinder finds itself being the best revenge killer you can get, outspeeding everything that doesn't have priority. It also beats Scarf Rachi 1v1 if it doesn't have zen headbutt, and megazam can never OHKO if you are running bulk and it is running timid psyshock.
The main things stopping this from going any higher than B+ is that it needs walls broken down before it can sweep, plus the prevalence of bulky setup sweepers like Suicune and Zyggy. The SR weakness doesn't help. However, since it does it job so damn well, I believe it should rise to B+.
But band+guts isn't better than no guard dynamic punch?
it can ohko frogles with heavy slam and can ko many other pokes 2.
it can ohko frogles with heavy slam and can ko many other pokes 2.
No Guard Dynamic Punch abuses hax. Guts Machamp is unquestionably a better wallbreaker.
Not to mention that it absorbs status, which allows it to take multiple roles on a team, being both a great wallbreaker and a great status absorber.
It's time 4 updates!
This one will probably be the last rank change for 2014 and before January tier shift happens soooooooo
Hang tight!
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Changes based on suggestions:
Gourgeist-XL: Unranked --> C (I'm really hesitant on adding to B- but we will probably research week it)
Forretress: B --> B+
Mega Beedrill: A --> A+
Bird Jesus: A- --> A (overdue)
Slurpuff: C --> B- (overdue)
Other changes:
Florges: B+ --> A-
Mega Glalie: C --> B-
Mega Shark: B+ --> A-
Entei: A --> A+
Zoroark: C --> B-
Cresselia: A --> A-
And very importantly
CATHY (Trevvy): C --> D (rip in peace)
If you guys have any other suggestions
Make it quick
I bet i missed something
I'm gonna archive the rankings on 31st
This one will probably be the last rank change for 2014 and before January tier shift happens soooooooo
Hang tight!
------------------------
Changes based on suggestions:
Gourgeist-XL: Unranked --> C (I'm really hesitant on adding to B- but we will probably research week it)
Forretress: B --> B+
Mega Beedrill: A --> A+
Bird Jesus: A- --> A (overdue)
Slurpuff: C --> B- (overdue)
Other changes:
Florges: B+ --> A-
Mega Glalie: C --> B-
Mega Shark: B+ --> A-
Entei: A --> A+
Zoroark: C --> B-
Cresselia: A --> A-
And very importantly
CATHY (Trevvy): C --> D (rip in peace)
If you guys have any other suggestions
Make it quick
I bet i missed something
I'm gonna archive the rankings on 31st
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Linda to A rank. Although frail, it legitimately a unique and effective utility and late game sweeper.imo Linda is pretty splashable just as long as you have Defog/spin support.
Also please like this post so I can buy my name back from the Firebot store.
Also please like this post so I can buy my name back from the Firebot store.
Ehh A rank seems like way too high for fletch rn.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UnderUsed metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
Pulled that from the OP. Fletch's 4x weakness to rocks as well as the fact that fletch basically only has one viable set which is mono attacking that is walled by rock and electric types really hinders it from moving up.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.
Fletch fits the description of B rank perfectly imo, with its notable flaws being its rocks weakness and obvious frailty that prevents it from setting up a good amount of times. It functions well if it has the right team support, mainly hazard clearers and things to deal with bulky waters.
I really don't think it should move to A rank, but I wouldn't be opposed to it moving up to B+ rank as Orbital suggested
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UnderUsed metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
Pulled that from the OP. Fletch's 4x weakness to rocks as well as the fact that fletch basically only has one viable set which is mono attacking that is walled by rock and electric types really hinders it from moving up.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.
Fletch fits the description of B rank perfectly imo, with its notable flaws being its rocks weakness and obvious frailty that prevents it from setting up a good amount of times. It functions well if it has the right team support, mainly hazard clearers and things to deal with bulky waters.
I really don't think it should move to A rank, but I wouldn't be opposed to it moving up to B+ rank as Orbital suggested
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Might catch some heat for this but I nominate Mega Blastoise for A+ rank.
It doesn't have great speed, but it does have good utility options on top of an amazing offensive move pool. It's Mega Launcher ability essentially gives it BP 120 Dark and Fighting type moves which by itself is excellent coverage. It has very good special attack, useable physical attack, and also good bulk to back it.
It doesn't have great speed, but it does have good utility options on top of an amazing offensive move pool. It's Mega Launcher ability essentially gives it BP 120 Dark and Fighting type moves which by itself is excellent coverage. It has very good special attack, useable physical attack, and also good bulk to back it.
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I actually disagree with Forry being moved up to B+. It's such a free switchin for so many things, and only really fits well on balance or full stall. I don't play stall, but on balance it rarely ever actually spins and sets up rocks so you have to move one to another mon, which kinda defeats the purpose of using it anyway. It's a counter for a few things like Mega Bee but heh, I find it doesn't really do its job very well at all. It's also very easy to break through, as SpD variants are weak to things like Mienshao and Champ while full def variants are pretty susceptible to almost any special attack. It'll shine through sometimes but not that often.
Yanmega A- to A: yanmega...the threat tht not many prepare for tbh but should. I honestly feel over the past month of playing UU ive seen this monster continuously grow and grow as a threat. life orb modest granite does have its checks like florges steel types to an extent and certain spD walls can deal with it. but played correctly, and those special walls being dealt with throughout the course of a game and eventually being eliminated leave yanmega to be a reliable cleaner. their are many instances where if you can get rid of a lone check it literally can sweep the other 5 mons. not to mention you can run some cool strats around it like wp pass celebi or nasty pass and all tht jazz. thus making it a deadly sweeper. this thing has emerged into a common threat in UU and deserves a littler more respect than A- imo.
yeah i couldnt support this more. yanmega is insanely strong and can run a variety of fun (and hilarious) sets. protect 3 attacks is the standard set, and forms half of the ever-present dual speed boost core. it's super fun, and can punch serious holes in many team types. endure weakness policy is another option, and with access to reversal, even with it's measley attack stat can do serious damage to the likes of empoleon after a boost. it also forms a potent sweeper obviously. Specs Tinted lens is completely absurd, 2hkoing the likes of florges aggron and gligar with Bug Buzz. It's a really fun mix-up set when people expect LO 3 attacks. yanmega is definitely a threat worth accounting for, A rank definitely suits it.
Have always been a fan of UU and I really love this thread. One Pokemon I would like to discuss is Toxicroak. Bare with me since I am on my phone. While "B" is a solid rating I was wondering if others felt Toxicroak may be worthy of B+. The ability to wall basically every bulky water in the tier sets it apart as a an offensive Pokemon. Additionally with the Gunk Shot buff Croak has a more reliable poison STAB to utilize. Furthermore, Croak competes with Lucario for a team slot and Lucario definitely has a stronger offensive presence, but Croak has more utility while still being an above average physical sweeper. Definitely want to talk more and I will once I get back to my computer, but I would love to hear other thoughts.
With that said I nominate Toxicroak to B+ ranking
With that said I nominate Toxicroak to B+ ranking
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I agree with yanmega moving up to A rank. Besides the obvious 4x SR weakness this thing is a monster, being able to shine against most playstyles with the proper sets according to your team needs. Protect + 3 attacks and WP Endure are really amazing against offensive teams and being a fantastic late game cleaner, also the tinted lens set destroy a lot of defensive builds without a blissey that could stomach that strong bug buzz (being able to 2hko stuff like florges is pretty ridiculous imo). Of course it needs hazard removal support but thats, perhaps, the only support that it needs to pull off its weight during a match.
A rank seems fair to it right now.
A rank seems fair to it right now.
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