Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[shrang]

Anyone else think Mega Lucario should be lower? It was already questionable in XY because it was a Webs mon (and we all know how matchup reliant that was back then), and now it's lost Webs since Defog is so easy. On top of that, we get stuff like Mega Sal and P Donner. I guess the increase in Darkceus usage gives Mega Lucario a small niche, but with everything else that's happened, it's a huge opportunity cost since it costs a Mega Stone and it's just... not that good. Drop it down to like C or something?

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'd like to nominate gyarados to move up to B-. It works surprisingly well, from what I've seen of it, as it breaks most common walls, is immune to magic bounce so it can taunt things like Sableye, can kill lugia lugia because it breaks multiscale, single handedly stops baton pass teams, and as a DDer is probably only behind Ray and Mence. It's certainly better than Charizard-X, which is what it is currently ranked alongside, due to mold breaker, and crunch really buffed its viability this gen.

No, and if anything it should move down because of Primal Groudon

 

[Mr.378]

I agree Mega-Lucario should be C- or maybe D. It just lost practically all of the reasons to use it now that sticky web teams are dead and there is too much of an opportunity cost to use it over another mega. This also should mean that the web users should be unranked or at least moved down because the team archetype is sadly too inconsistent to be viable any more with the spread of the Soul Dew Latis.

Oh yeah, I'm also bringing back my sentiment to unrank Amoongus for being bad while we're at it. It's probably the worst thing we have ranked now. Gastrodon too actually for having no reason to exist in the tier anymore now that Primal-Groudon outclasses it so badly.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

It cant break down primal groudon, but neither can Palkia, thundurus, Zekrom, Ferrothorn, Arceus-electric/poison, normal kyogre, tyranitar or mega lucario and they are all B or B+ ranked.

Problem is that Zekrom, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Mega Lucario, and to a lesser extent those arceus forms have not been updated to their proper rankings, also all of these except for Mega Lucario and to a lesser extent Tyranitar, have some type of niche to them, Mega Gyardos on the other hand doesn't, Zekrom outclasses it as a wallbreaker and Rayquaza and Mega Salamence outclass it as a DD Sweeper. Water types just aren't nearly as good in ORAS Ubers as they where in XY Ubers

 

[Thugly Duckling]

I strongly disagree with dropping Lucario. I understand that it takes a mega slot and thus suffers some opportunity in comparison to Mega Salamence or Mega Gengar, but it still does what it is supposed to do very well (checking geoxern, wallbreaking, etc.) and has exceptional speed to remain a potent sweeper with Swords Dance. I can admit to being very underprepared for it and suffering the consequences for doing so, and it still requires a reliable check to stop its Adaptability-boosted onslaught. C rank is way too harsh; in comparison to other things in that ranking, Lucario is just far more usable than each of them. Where it sits now in B Rank is fine.

 

[Minority]

The only reason Mega Lucario was usable in XY was because of webs support, and although its speed is not abysmal, it's not that great either since it can be easily revenge killed due to poor bulk. Anti-hazard support got a great buff with Latias, Latios, and two Magic Bouncers that are actually viable, pretty much turning an archetype that was already matchup reliant into unusable. "It checks Xern" is a poor justification for it being ranked at B, or to even be considered viable. Not only that, ORAS introduced a few more Xern checks further diluting one of the little niches Mega Luke had to begin with. I don't know why I would ever use Mega Luke over say Mega Scizor since it still checks Xern, doesn't die to anything, and has access to recovery and other utility like Pursuit. For a wallbreaker why use Mega Luke over something like Mega Mence? Steel has always been a shit offensive type and it has gotten even worse with Primal Groudon on every team. Maybe I'll have a change of heart latter in the meta, but right now it seems as though Mega Lucario isn't even viable.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

The only reason Mega Lucario was usable in XY was because of webs support

lol. In XY, Lucario functioned at its best with webs support, but it was by no means necessary for its success. It also fit on offensive teams that needed a fast nuke and geoxern check, iirc Level 56 built a very successful team utilizing a Lucario without webs support. The portion of my post you seemed to ignore was when I said Lucario is FAR better than the cesspool of the current C Rank mons (think arceus-fire or water). Just because Salamence, Gengar, and Scizor are better than Lucario in the current meta, that doesn't take away from Lucario the fact that it's still a good pokemon and does what it is supposed to; however, with a difficult means of justifying his use (just like some other B Rank pokemon, such as regular Groudon over Primal Groudon or Palkia over the Lati twins).

 

[PISTOLERO]

I'd just like to point out that the only reason Arceus-Fire and Arceus-Steel aren't in D-Rank is because we haven't gotten to them yet and I don't have permission from Fireburn to throw them into D. I wholly agree with Lucario moving down a lot, you can argue all you like about how it can work without Sticky Web but it's slow on the first turn, gets OHKOed by almost every STAB move in the tier, and is directly outclassed by Mega Salamence. Also, Sticky Web was its 99% niche, and that is unviable now thanks to Defog Lati@s. If anybody can show me a Sticky Web build that isn't hugely flawed please do, but I agree with shrang and Mr.378 that Lucario and Sticky are both bad and inconsistent. Also, if you're talking about level 56's team with Mega Lucario, i strongly suggest you look at it again and read Dice's and Hack's recommendations as that team was hugely flawed (no offense to level 56).

 

[ApplepieFTW]

lol. In XY, Lucario functioned at its best with webs support, but it was by no means necessary for its success. It also fit on offensive teams that needed a fast nuke and geoxern check, iirc Level 56 built a very successful team utilizing a Lucario without webs support. The portion of my post you seemed to ignore was when I said Lucario is FAR better than the cesspool of the current C Rank mons (think arceus-fire or water). Just because Salamence, Gengar, and Scizor are better than Lucario in the current meta, that doesn't take away from Lucario the fact that it's still a good pokemon and does what it is supposed to; however, with a difficult means of justifying his use (just like some other B Rank pokemon, such as regular Groudon over Primal Groudon or Palkia over the Lati twins).

Not to badmouth lvl56, but that team wasn't the greatest. Most "lucario offense" turned out as awkward teams, because you needed a lot of pressure to make sure didn't set up with high health left. Luke also wasn't really a nuke, your best bet was using it to weaken checks for ekiller (example) or the other way around with another mon. The fact that it was so hard to set up, and then actually do damage (or without set up) made it an unreliable wincon, and it offered little utility outside checking xern.
In oras, this mon is outclassed by scizor lol. Its still usable because many of its checks are worse now; it shouldn't go any lower than C+

 

[GamesMaster]

bit late to the show but I've seen a lot of Calcs with Mega Salamence whereby the opponent is intimidated but at the same time, Mence has Mega stats. This is clearly not possible, unless bringing in after a KO (or a VoltTurn) . Just a nitpick. It does result in some pretty important changes. For a start, Scarf Zekrom's Outrage is a potential OHKO after SR at -1 against non Mega Mence, contrary to the claims of the post earlier in the thread;

-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 266-314 (67.6 - 79.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously, we can bring regular Mence in after a KO and proceed to mega, giving intimidate + bst, but that problem is that this is only achievable one time. A lot of language is being used though, as if Mence were a check;

"-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 149-177 (45 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO.
A one-time Ho-Oh switch-in for offense that can actually do something in return."

Should actually read;

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not trying to undermine the viability of Mega Mence whatsoever, but it's pretty important to be careful and accurate and to try and simulate the game environment if you are going to run off a huge page of impressive calcs designed to show how powerful a pokemon may be! I wouldn't normally get involved in this stuff but when I see that more than 10 people "like this" it makes me worried that nobody is actually doing this stuff properly and taking other words and opinions for granted, rather than forming their own. Again, I'm sure this is not the case! ;)

 

[Fireburn]

I removed Sylveon (was rejected by QC) and Amoonguss (it sucks)

 

[Magis4Life]

I largely agree with orch in that Mega Blaziken/Blaziken should be moved down from A- -->B+/ B. As much as i love BKC, with the increased usage of gira-o and primal Groudon being on essentially every team, and Ho-oh being Ho-oh, especially with defog being rather ez with the latis, Blaziken just isn't holding up the way it used to. The increased opportunity cost to using other megas (my name is mence) is also something to especially note.

 

[Prinz]

Wanted to make some nominations, I don't play ubers too much but I wanna get involved more in this tier, and wanted to share some thoughts, every critique is accepted, so feel free to not agree with any of my nomination.

Arceus Ground to A+: From what I have played ORAS ubers, Arceus Ground is a monster, it beats Groudon Primal quite easily which is the tier's top threat, it beats Salamence with Ice Beam which is another big threat and it beats Lati Twins too if they aren't carring Grass Knot (which isn't super common from what I have seen). Definitely a big and relevant threat in the tier, being able to check the many of the most common mons and to put some nice support to the team which is running it (I guess a set with Will-o-Wisp, Defog, Recover and Judgement is something to consider too, even if ofc the Calm Mind one is the most dangerous, I haven't tried yet the Sword Dance one but I thin it can put some work too).

Arceus Dark to A+: That thing is a monster too, the Calm Mind one with Refresh especially beat Stall by itself if Xerneas is weakened which is a very big niche. It beats Lati Twins, and nobody in the tier wants to switch on this thing not named Xerneas / Arceus Fairy (which from what I could see isn't too common, people tend to prefer Arceus Normal, Ground, Dark and Rock mainly). Definitely a big threat imo, that deserves to rise. I can see it also in S rank in the future for how strong it is and how difficult it is to stop it, but A+ is already enough for it as of now I think.

Genesect to A-: In ORAS I think it had an huge boost with Lati Twins raising in usage thanks to Soul Dew since it's one of the few mon that can switch-in on them and gain momentum with U-Turn, it can also beat Mewtwo and Mewtwo Y, Darkrai, weakened Arceus Dark, Gengar and revenge-kill Salamence and Xerneas. Obv Im talking about the Scarf set which is the most consistent imo, as Edgar's most recent RMT shows. I think that beating / revenge-killing all these threats for one mon is a huge niche, and Genesect is really good at doing this, and as well as gaining useful momentum for its team. In my eyes it deserves a rise.

Lucario and Kyogre to B-: I won't spend too many words on Lucario but I agree that it deserves a drop. In XY it was good just because of Sticky Web but now that Latios and Latias got that buff, it isnt too hard to defog it away, also it got competition as a mega with Salamence, Diancie and Metagross which are, especially the first two very good atm. I believe that Kyogre deserves a drop as well, I mean I know it was an huge threat in XY but now it's just outclassed by its Primal forme imo. Scarf and Specs set can't be used with efficacy because of Primal Groudon which is in EVERY team and give free turns to Groudon isn't the best thing to do, especially since its Rock Polish / Sword Dance / Double Boost sets are rly threatening and not so easy to stop. Also, its CM set it's outclassed by Primal Kyogre which has better SAtk and can actually beat P Groudon with +1 Blizzard. I can see the reasons why people would want Kyogre to be still a B threat because it's itself a really good mon, but P Groudon being the most common and the best mon in the tier, doesn't allow Kyogre to shine at its best and also the presence of Primal Kyogre makes things worse since from some points of view it's better than regular Kyogre (I'm mainly talking about the CM set).

Ditto to B-: Xerneas, Mega Salamence, P Don, P Kyogre, Extreme Killer Arceus, Darkrai. The Uber tier is full of setup sweeper and Ditto takes advantage of all them, and even if it isn't as good as it was when Mega Rayquaza ruined the tier, it's still a really good mon to have in a offense team imo, being able to revenge-kill the major part of the setup sweeper. Can't really see it in the same rank as regular Diancie and the Charizards. Imo it needs a rise.

I guess that's all I got. My uber experience isn't the best, so feel free to comment in anyhow, hope to bring some interesting discussions in this forum!

 

[billall]

rachi should not rise cause mega scisor can counter the eons and also pursit trap them.

 

[jackm]

rachi should not rise cause mega scisor can counter the eons and also pursit trap them.

Simply put, Jirachi and Scizor-Mega play different roles in a team. Scizor can Pursuit trap, RK or clean with Bullet Punch, and hold momentum with a powerful U-turn. Meanwhile, Jirachi's U-turn functions as more of a technical tool, allowing it to wish-pass effectively despite lacking serious firepower. Jirachi can also spread paralysis, which can be nice for offensive teams. In addition, using Scizor requires the expenditure of your mega slot, restricting the possibility of other useful megas acting as teammates. Jirachi isn't amazing, but it's definitely a potential alternative to Scizor-Mega that can check a surprisingly large body of threats (Xerneas, Lati@s, Mewtwo, and Diancie-Mega come to mind) and is therefore not as outclassed as you make it out to be.

 

[Prinz]

Yeh also Jirachi isn't setup bait for Salamence as Scizor is. I guess that's a good niche because on how Salamence is common in Ubers. Jirachi can just Thunder Wave if it tries to setup and then it can Iron Head it to the death. Jirachi still fails against Refresh Salamence though (unless Iron Head always flinches after the first Thunder Wave), but it definitely doesn't let offensive variants setup.

 

[asterat]

I think that Metagross-Mega should get moved up to A-, or at least B+. It's honestly just that useful. First and foremost, it checks Xerneas really well. I honestly think it's one of the top 5 Xerneas checks easily, if not even higher. Secondly, it can revenge kill lots of stuff with Bullet Punch. You might think Bullet Punch is really weak, but it can be really useful for revenge killing, a little bit like Extreme Speed from Arceus. If you use max attack (which I do) you can do over half most of the time to uninvested Mega Gengar, and always do over 40% to standard Darkrai. If Xerneas gets away from you (and Metagross is low on health) it can pick off Xerneas from 50%, and sometimes as much as 60%. Not a game changer, but it has a lot of uses. It's better than Scizor's Bullet Punch in XY, and that made Scizor a pretty big part of the metagame. Another great thing is the speed tier- 110 outspeeds Primals, Rayquaza, etc. You can run max speed to speed tie the Lati twins, but you usually wall them anyways, so there is no huge point to it. Outspeeding any Groudon is the priority to me, as well as Kyogre (if you have grass knot.) By the way, Earthquake is usually enough to 2HKO Groudon. Super defensive ones might live, but they will take an irreversible hit, and might fall if hazards are up. There are cons in that it is kind of Dakrai and Arceus-Dark bait and has a lot of annoying issues with Earthquake, but the mon is still worth using. It's one of the best mega evolutions around, and one of the primary ones to consider along with Diancie, Mence, Gengar, and M2Y. Flaws are there, but I do think it is worth using and the power and bulk and typing outweigh the flaws as far as I am concerned. Thanks for reading.

 

[Hack]

Yeh also Jirachi isn't setup bait for Salamence as Scizor is. I guess that's a good niche because on how Salamence is common in Ubers. Jirachi can just Thunder Wave if it tries to setup and then it can Iron Head it to the death. Jirachi still fails against Refresh Salamence though (unless Iron Head always flinches after the first Thunder Wave), but it definitely doesn't let offensive variants setup.

Neither are set up bait for Mence, except the refresh variant which can beat both.

I think that Metagross-Mega should get moved up to A-, or at least B+. It's honestly just that useful. First and foremost, it checks Xerneas really well. I honestly think it's one of the top 5 Xerneas checks easily, if not even higher. Secondly, it can revenge kill lots of stuff with Bullet Punch. You might think Bullet Punch is really weak, but it can be really useful for revenge killing, a little bit like Extreme Speed from Arceus. If you use max attack (which I do) you can do over half most of the time to uninvested Mega Gengar, and always do over 40% to standard Darkrai. If Xerneas gets away from you (and Metagross is low on health) it can pick off Xerneas from 50%, and sometimes as much as 60%. Not a game changer, but it has a lot of uses. It's better than Scizor's Bullet Punch in XY, and that made Scizor a pretty big part of the metagame. Another great thing is the speed tier- 110 outspeeds Primals, Rayquaza, etc. You can run max speed to speed tie the Lati twins, but you usually wall them anyways, so there is no huge point to it. Outspeeding any Groudon is the priority to me, as well as Kyogre (if you have grass knot.) By the way, Earthquake is usually enough to 2HKO Groudon. Super defensive ones might live, but they will take an irreversible hit, and might fall if hazards are up. There are cons in that it is kind of Dakrai and Arceus-Dark bait and has a lot of annoying issues with Earthquake, but the mon is still worth using. It's one of the best mega evolutions around, and one of the primary ones to consider along with Diancie, Mence, Gengar, and M2Y. Flaws are there, but I do think it is worth using and the power and bulk and typing outweigh the flaws as far as I am concerned. Thanks for reading.

Mega Metagross is highly mediocre, it's a worse pursuit trapper than Aegi/Sciz, it doesn't check Xern better than those and it kinda needs Toxic on its set as well which again Aegi/Sciz does way better. Ya you can outspeed Rayquaza if you are mega evolved already, which gives you a miniscule and unreliable defensive niche over the mons I mentioned. And even then, you have to compete with opportunity cost in using it for your mega evolution. I don't even think it's B-rank material.

Regarding talk about Arceus-Ground:

Special Arceus Ground is silly. Not only is it a very overrated Groudon check: an uninvested plume does 36-41 % and burns you eventually and you can't switch in on aids blades very well at all, it is also forced to run a set that is always going to be a liability in certain match ups. Now, team support is one thing but there is no way you are not going to be Ho-oh weak when building with the set. And to add on to that, being forced to run Ice Beam for Mence leaves you without a wisp slot for physical attackers, running CM to have a chance vs Latis means no defog and so forth. This mon will absolutely ruin your defensive synergy and will still force you to run secondary Groudon answers. HF when rest talk ogre comes in and rips apart your core btw.

Now Groundceus as an SD mon isn't so bad, it can serve as an offensive Groudon answer (revenge killer) for some teams. I don't think this mon deserves more than A- rank personally but it's ok if it stays A I guess.

 

[Inspirited]

The only other reason to use Mega Metagross over Sciz / Aegi other than the small niche Hack mentioned is having a Rock-type attack, outspeeding, and OHKOing Ho-Oh. Yet another small niche, but one that is a bit more relevant than the Rayquaza one imo. I have been using a Toxic-less one recently (specifically because bird is a threat) and it isn't too bad actually. Still not B+ worthy though in my opinion. Perhaps B- ?

 

[Prinz]

Hack

Actually, I think Scizor is setup bait for Salamence, at least it's for ones with some HP investiments.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 200 Def Salamence: 82-97 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

As you can see Bullet Punch isn't enough to prevent Salamence to use Dragon Dance and Roost unless multiple crits happen, so yeh I think that it's setup bait for Mence.

0 HP / 0 Defense Salamence takes not a too much from BP from Mega Scizor as well: 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 96-114 (29 - 34.4%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO

The situation isn't very different from the other, even in this situation Mence can quite easily setup DD on Scizor and then roost off the damages from BP.

Probably you were speaking about Scizor with Toxic though, but yeh just wanted to point out that you need it to not become setup fodder for Mence (if it has Refresh as you said you lose either way).

 

[Hack]

Toxic, every Scizor runs/should run it anyway. Refresh wins, I was clear about that but it's not different from Rachi then (only a bit harder to kill).

 

[Prinz]

Well actually I have seen lot of Scizors running Defog / BP / Pursuit / Roost. Some also use U-Turn instead of Defog to perform as an offensive pivot and a Xerneas check, but I also agree that it needs to Toxic to not become setup bait for Salamence, and to lure Ho-Oh / Primal Groudon on the switch too.

 

[Inspirited]

Defog Scizor was pretty bad in XY, and it got a whole lot worse in ORAS with new and much better Defog options, and the need for toxic due to a certain titanic, landcasting dinosaur. Scizor can no longer run dream to Defog viably imo.

 

[Prinz]

Never said it was good yeh, to be honest I was wondering why so much people use Defog Scizor on the ladder myself lol.

 

[billall]

i dont know in what world a rachi counters a mewtwo cause u just die to 2 flamthrower or fire blast. While yes rachi can counter the lati twins but if you just want them dead with no effort just bring mega scisor. jirachi is just outclassed by mega scisor. while rachi gets 3 hit ko from earth power diance so mega sciosr is just better.

Simply put, Jirachi and Scizor-Mega play different roles in a team. Scizor can Pursuit trap, RK or clean with Bullet Punch, and hold momentum with a powerful U-turn. Meanwhile, Jirachi's U-turn functions as more of a technical tool, allowing it to wish-pass effectively despite lacking serious firepower. Jirachi can also spread paralysis, which can be nice for offensive teams. In addition, using Scizor requires the expenditure of your mega slot, restricting the possibility of other useful megas acting as teammates. Jirachi isn't amazing, but it's definitely a potential alternative to Scizor-Mega that can check a surprisingly large body of threats (Xerneas, Lati@s, Mewtwo, and Diancie-Mega come to mind) and is therefore not as outclassed as you make it out to be.