Mega Zam was the fastest and strongest mega with arguably better movepool and has a fantastic pre mega evo ability. They both directly competed for that base 150 speed mega slot. Mega Zam leaving leaves mega aero as the fastest mega with the ability to check almost every mega barring mega aboma (priority ice shard) and mega stoise (that bulk)
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np: UU Stage 1 - Changes
- Thread starter Calloflochie
- Start date
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Don't try and predict the future in Pokemon bro, we all thought rachi and raikou were leaving in the January tier change but that didn't happen :] Taking a couple days just to get through and test 1 mon isn't difficult, it's not like it takes 2 months to do like every test in OU
Uh just one thing when you say Top Mega you mean the Best One? because if that is so I 100% agree,but at least where I live Top something implies best 5 which Aero fits the bill easily even with Mega Zam as the n1,in that case this disscussion was basically pointless lol
also Welp Prepare your Bullet Punchers
Ok what the hell. I could deal with the Zygarde unban. I thought, "well maybe they just want to see if its 'balanced' or not even though with Roserade support, it clearly shits on teams." I could even deal with Mega Beedrill sitting around in UU. I could even deal with Togekiss retest even though that was also stupid. But I'm not going to sit here while you guys unban Mega Diancie. I've been playing UU for almost a year now and I've even topped the ladder with multiple alts so I'm not just another common shitter. If we are going to "retest" Mega Diancie lets just retest Mega Metagross too. Actually, lets just retest Mega Rayquaza for UU while we are at it. Its stupid. Not only is Mega Diancie faster than almost the enitre meta, it can nearly OHKO all UU mons with its moonblast, earthpower, diamond storm set. The mons that it can't kill in one shot such as Vaporeon and Celebi are good but are easily countered by things such as Raikou and Chandelure. That being said, neither Vaporeon or Celebi can switch into Mega Diancie. Vaporeon can't simply because it doesn't have the bulk to both diamond storm and moonblast. Calcs provided below. Celebi it can't switch into a moonblast without special defense investments in which case it loses to pursuit Krookodile. The biggest problem I have with Mega Diancie is that I shouldn't be forced to team build to counter specifically 1 pokemon in the entire meta. I literally need to build an anti-Mega Diancie team to deal with it. Most of the time when I'm team building I like to think of what I'm weak to by type or maybe combination of moves and make sure I cover my weaknesses. Mega Diancie is so OP that without considering it would be suicide. This mon literally rips apart teams because it is so powerful and because of its ability to run both a physical stab move as well as extremely powerful special moves. Moonblast, Diamond Storm, and Earth Power cover nearly every single mon in UU and completely destroys every single S ranked and A ranked mon except Aerodactyl and even Aerodactyl can't switch into it. Not to memtion most people wont only be running Mega Diancie, rather, it will be backed up by other Aerodactyl hard walls such as Forretress and Swampert. So congratulations, Aerodactyl is a check but once you switch out, Mega Diancie proceeds to rip apart your team again.
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 189-223 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 246-291 (53 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 189-223 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 246-291 (53 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I seriously loved Mega-Diancie while it was here (but then again, I really enjoyed MegaZam, too), so I'll be happy to play with her for a bit. Perhaps it's time to revive my Diancie sand balance team... I tried replacing Mega-Diancie after it left the tier, but the team just got shat on by stall without her.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Do you literally mean a couple days as in two days? Not trying to put a deadline on this just asking. I'm pretty mixed towards Diancie, in any case its regular form was doing fine in UU with Trick Room anyways. It is sort of hard to wall though :lDon't try and predict the future in Pokemon bro, we all thought rachi and raikou were leaving in the January tier change but that didn't happen :] Taking a couple days just to get through and test 1 mon isn't difficult, it's not like it takes 2 months to do like every test in OU
I understand that ones usage and viability doesn't always correlate from tier to tier but the fact that Zygarde allowed to stay for a short period of time and was the bane of UU players that I was able to speak with, I seriously can't see how you would consider M-Diancie even capable of staying in the tier. On top of its CM, Rock Polish, Magic Bounce, and coverage this thing is a monster and makes Zygarde look like a walk in the park if I'm going to be blunt. If you want centralizing, M-Diancie will be just that.
At least she looks pretty! Much better to lose against her than some ugly worm like creature. Though in all seriousness I wouldn't say the boosting is even all that necessary when playing with Mega Diancie. Just the fact that she runs mixed and has access to great coverage is enough to make it difficult to deal with her, I find her natural strength suffices.
As for her retest the meta hasn't really changed in any relevant degree to counter the reasons brought up before so... Can't say she has much of a chance at staying, really nothing changed with her pool of answers. At best you'd have Serperior in 3 days as another potential check but I don't think that counts as being significant enough change.
But hey to be honest as broken as many of the new megas were in UU can't say I didn't miss them. They were certainly interesting to play with as they offered so much versatility that they really felt like trump cards. However short her retest might be can't say she doesn't make the tier fun, even if she clearly stands out as an outlier.
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-200067394
★yamb: I miss mega diancie
Thank you Calloflochie, you creepy mind reader you.
But for srs, this thing is ridiculous. Why not shoot for a Staraptor test first since it was just barely kicked back upstairs? Diancite was borked when the tier had more monsters to take it on and it's even more borked now. No amount of Scarfrachis are going to make this thing less cancerous.
★yamb: I miss mega diancie
Thank you Calloflochie, you creepy mind reader you.
But for srs, this thing is ridiculous. Why not shoot for a Staraptor test first since it was just barely kicked back upstairs? Diancite was borked when the tier had more monsters to take it on and it's even more borked now. No amount of Scarfrachis are going to make this thing less cancerous.
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Maybe it's because Diancite was in at the same time as Altarianite, so Bronzong and Jirachi were everywhere to keep her in check, but I found MDiancie to be very good but not overwhelming. Her terrible Speed pre-evo and mediocre bulk post-evo helped keep her sane.
A well played Ziggy pretty much required you to carry a counter, or you got swept the moment it got a free turn and managed to get a Sub. Worse still, it was bulky enough to turn a lot of things into set-up opportunities. It singlehandedly invalidated things like Rotom-H because they gave free turns to the most dangerous set-up sweeper in the tier. MDiancie, on the other hand, was super dangerous but could usually be gotten around with solid offensive checks.
I'll be interested to see if MDiancie is actually overwhelming when she's not being lumped in with Togekiss and MAltaria.
A well played Ziggy pretty much required you to carry a counter, or you got swept the moment it got a free turn and managed to get a Sub. Worse still, it was bulky enough to turn a lot of things into set-up opportunities. It singlehandedly invalidated things like Rotom-H because they gave free turns to the most dangerous set-up sweeper in the tier. MDiancie, on the other hand, was super dangerous but could usually be gotten around with solid offensive checks.
I'll be interested to see if MDiancie is actually overwhelming when she's not being lumped in with Togekiss and MAltaria.
I didn't have issues handling MDiancie either but I think that is because I tended to run very offensively oriented teams, so she didn't really have much opportunity to set up so to speak (or even MEVO unscathed). On the other hand outside of CM she does struggle with defensive teams, she can be walled by Blissey/Alo until PP stalled out of Diamond storm, that can easily carry appropriate defensive answers (SpD Jirachi/Empoleon - he fits anywhere). That said I can see her effects being very similar to Greninja in OU that you'd likely polarize the metagame into being either HO or stall. As I do see Balance or bulky offense having a bit more difficulty playing around with resistances given her coverage and mixed offenses coupled with speed.
Frankly I found Staraptor even more cancer than MDiancie to deal with, it just kills things as soon as it comes in. The immediate power and wall breaking capacity, thanks to its coverage, was a nightmare to deal with.
I think also the fact that it had 2 rounds of tests on top of its initial suspect ban and still ended up booted may be why it wasn't chosen over Diancite retest that was only banned via suspect. It certainly had a generous amount of opportunity, including being able to play in a very different metagame. Even then, it was only partially manageable because Mega Diancie helped to check it during its last round, well she checked a lot of things.
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Also keep in mind that it keeps the Base 50 Speed the turn it mega-evolves. Mega Aggron with some SpD investment can tank an Earth Power and stonewall both STABs, plus Heavy Slam/Iron Head flattens Diancie (literally), so M-Aggron would be a solid check that might find its way onto more defensive/balanced teams.
Well I do think balance teams are a bit more forgiving in UU than OU with regard to fitting in answers, and she does have a more generous pool of answers to say at the least than Greninja. I mean aside MAggron/MAero you'd also have Suicune, P2, Celebi (which has been catching on popularity), Swampert, Mega Sceptile, as potential checks, putting aside Zong/Rachi. But generally I find that you either pressure MDiancie so she doesn't have much chance to MEVO or well standard stall can deal with her as with balance I find it is easy to overload the would be answers, since there isn't much consequence for MDiancie switching out and she can still take a chunk out of you.
I would love to see her stay of course~
I never thought Mega-Diance was a huge issue. Tbh, I always thought Zygarde and Lucario were better sweepers.
Rock Polish can beat a lot of offensively based teams by investing in bulk, but it's shit HP stat really hurts it, not to mention you don't have a really extensive movepool. Calm Mind is something I never used and have never faced, but I don't see it destroying offensive teams, but rather dismantling some stall teams that lack a viable counter, ie m-agron or anything like that.
I hope it stays because it does have a healthy amount of viable checks, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and fat water types like Suicine, Blastoise. Even things like Specially Defensive Hippo can take it on.
tl;dr I think it should stay and unban Mega-zam :]
Rock Polish can beat a lot of offensively based teams by investing in bulk, but it's shit HP stat really hurts it, not to mention you don't have a really extensive movepool. Calm Mind is something I never used and have never faced, but I don't see it destroying offensive teams, but rather dismantling some stall teams that lack a viable counter, ie m-agron or anything like that.
I hope it stays because it does have a healthy amount of viable checks, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and fat water types like Suicine, Blastoise. Even things like Specially Defensive Hippo can take it on.
tl;dr I think it should stay and unban Mega-zam :]
To be honest, I don't think the mixed attacker is the best set M-Diancie can use. My thoughts would be that it should do something akin to double-dance P-Z with a set like this.
Diancie @ Diancite
Modest
Clear Body > Magic bounce
156 HP, 252 SpA, 4 SpD, 96 SPE
Calm Mind
Rock Polish
Moonblast
Earthpower
This set after mega evolving outpaces Adamant Lucario (which I think would be a reasonable benchmark to creep without speed boosts), while outspeeding every scarfer after a rock polish. All other EV's to bulk. Depending on how late in the game you are at or what kind of team you're up against, you can use the relevant boosting move of choice (or even both if circumstances are fortunate) and proceed to clean up. I don't really think that diamond storm is that necessary IMO, as earth power + moonblast hits everything for at least neutral damage except for
-Bronzong: Who you can't beat regardless
-Rotom-H: Who cannot do a thing to you except pray for hax from using discharge
-Crobat: Who only wins if carrying a poison move or (lel) steel wing
You can't beat blissey with a mix set anyway, so lets not bother with that. Partner this set up with pursuit trapper krookodile, and you should be able to set up a few win conditions easy.
A noteworthy advantage of modest would be these calcs.
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 180-214 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With Stealth Rock down, you can defeat most of your would be checks, while boosting up against other would be switch-ins.
What I've theorymonned people might like to give a try. Outside of blissey, Banded/scarfed Crobat, bronzong and SpDef hippowdon, there aren't too many good defensive answers. Offense has it better, though if both speed and SpA are boosted, crobat and bullet punch lucario are your only hopes (well maybe medicham with bullet punch, but thats about it. Nothing else in UU should be running bullet punch outside of those two mons).
EDIT: Whoops, stupid damage calc forced me to manually change a few stats since it doesn't have M-Diancie registered, and I forgot to edit the defense stats. If you saw the swampert/hippo calcs, ignore those.
Diancie @ Diancite
Modest
Clear Body > Magic bounce
156 HP, 252 SpA, 4 SpD, 96 SPE
Calm Mind
Rock Polish
Moonblast
Earthpower
This set after mega evolving outpaces Adamant Lucario (which I think would be a reasonable benchmark to creep without speed boosts), while outspeeding every scarfer after a rock polish. All other EV's to bulk. Depending on how late in the game you are at or what kind of team you're up against, you can use the relevant boosting move of choice (or even both if circumstances are fortunate) and proceed to clean up. I don't really think that diamond storm is that necessary IMO, as earth power + moonblast hits everything for at least neutral damage except for
-Bronzong: Who you can't beat regardless
-Rotom-H: Who cannot do a thing to you except pray for hax from using discharge
-Crobat: Who only wins if carrying a poison move or (lel) steel wing
You can't beat blissey with a mix set anyway, so lets not bother with that. Partner this set up with pursuit trapper krookodile, and you should be able to set up a few win conditions easy.
A noteworthy advantage of modest would be these calcs.
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 180-214 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With Stealth Rock down, you can defeat most of your would be checks, while boosting up against other would be switch-ins.
What I've theorymonned people might like to give a try. Outside of blissey, Banded/scarfed Crobat, bronzong and SpDef hippowdon, there aren't too many good defensive answers. Offense has it better, though if both speed and SpA are boosted, crobat and bullet punch lucario are your only hopes (well maybe medicham with bullet punch, but thats about it. Nothing else in UU should be running bullet punch outside of those two mons).
EDIT: Whoops, stupid damage calc forced me to manually change a few stats since it doesn't have M-Diancie registered, and I forgot to edit the defense stats. If you saw the swampert/hippo calcs, ignore those.
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Going Mixed doesn't really hurt Diancie much because:
- With Mega Diancie having base 160 Attack and Diamond Storm being a base 100 power move, Diamond Storm still does more than enough damage to Pokemon that are weak to it. It kills what it needs to kill, even with minimal investment.
- The occasional Defense boost helps.
- With Mega Diancie having base 160 Attack and Diamond Storm being a base 100 power move, Diamond Storm still does more than enough damage to Pokemon that are weak to it. It kills what it needs to kill, even with minimal investment.
- The occasional Defense boost helps.
@Silenced: My problem with that set especially with the EV spread is you take the consistency of Mega Diancie to threaten the opposing team as it becomes entirely dependent on its boost. Losing out its advantage of a 110 base speed and essentially being much easier to revenge as a result. In fact, 110 is usually enough to suffice in pressuring the opponent. This often seems to crop up with players I've seen in OU generally favoring to keep their speed with Diancie as it is an asset, rather than investing it over bulk with RP modest sets.
Moreover, it forces Diancie to be left in reserve rather than have more freedom to come in and out of a match, since you are relegating her strongly as a sweeper - lacking recovery and that base HP means every hit will count. It is somewhat difficult to set up with Diancie because grass/water/ground are fairly common in UU, especially water which can burn you with scald and fired off by fairly bulky mons.
The thing about Diamond storm that you are dismissing is that it can end up hitting certain sponges harder, as you end up hurting them on their lesser invested or vulnerable defense. Usually hitting things like Florges, Roserade, Tentacruel, etc much harder than moonblast/earth power. The defense boost just becomes icing on the cake, though not as big of a deal since not much priority runs about in the tier and she sits at a good speed tier above the rest.
Moreover, it forces Diancie to be left in reserve rather than have more freedom to come in and out of a match, since you are relegating her strongly as a sweeper - lacking recovery and that base HP means every hit will count. It is somewhat difficult to set up with Diancie because grass/water/ground are fairly common in UU, especially water which can burn you with scald and fired off by fairly bulky mons.
The thing about Diamond storm that you are dismissing is that it can end up hitting certain sponges harder, as you end up hurting them on their lesser invested or vulnerable defense. Usually hitting things like Florges, Roserade, Tentacruel, etc much harder than moonblast/earth power. The defense boost just becomes icing on the cake, though not as big of a deal since not much priority runs about in the tier and she sits at a good speed tier above the rest.
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Well you could just go max speed modest. The weaknesses aren't that huge an issue outside of celebi, shaymin and starmie as you outspeed every other notable user of water/ground/grass STABs. Even with low HP, its resistances/immunity and hitting I think equal to base 95 jolly speed still allows you to outspeed and boost/damage against major grass/ground water threats before you have to eat a hit. Scald means stuff all if it doesn't burn (betting on a 30% chance to impede a sweep is a dumb idea) especially after a CM boost or two. For instance, crocune does 48% max to 0/0 M-diancie after a single CM boost, while getting 2HKO'd by +1 modest moonblast, while tentacruel is KO'd at +1 after rocks, which I think are the strongest defensive scald abusers.
You might lose out on some speed, but you still hit like a truck, have the opportunity to sweep, and can come in on notable offensive threats (e.g choice locked krookodile, hydreigon in general).
I do admit, I did miss one notable poke if you forgo diamond storm which is mega beedrill, but asides from that, it really doesn't matter too much.
The thing is do you really need that extra damage output? Looking at some quick calcs the damage difference with a +1 boost is close but that added speed gives you the boon of not having to worry about base 100 mons.
I am just not seeing any notable differences since things like Jirachi/Suicune/Empoleon are still 2HKO regardless. You're also free to invest the extra EVs for some bulk since only thing notable speed tier is base 108.
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Hmm, seems I didn't after all, though you do need a bit more chip damage to secure the OHKO or 2HKO on a number of those pokes. Still its nothing a u-turn and rocks can't provide. I'd agree its worth it to go max speed in the end but I'm still sure that double dance is a solid choice worth trying given the ability to KO or boost past would be checks. The only other notable one missed by going timid is swampert who requires a fair bit more prior damage to ensure the KO (I think the minimum damage roll is 74% taken from M-Diancie's +1 timid moonblast)
Well I am just not fond of double dance but regardless as I said earlier I just don't see much merit in running modest or tweaking EVs to give up speed in favor of bulk since the extra power and bulk just aren't worth losing the ability to out speed a good portion of the tier, and taking unnecessary risks resulting from it. Running those EVs essentially means you have to boost up more or less - rather than just relying on MDiancie's natural strength.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
You can use this damage calc for ORAS http://gamut-was-taken.github.io/
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 295-348 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 295-348 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 322-381 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It depends a lot on the set I guess and if Blissey can Protect stall but if you get a tiny bit of prior damage like a U-Turn early in the game against Blissey you should be set regardless.
One great defensive answer to Diancie is Mega Swampert which can OHKO with Earthquake with 0 EVs invested and put the rest in Spdef to counter Moonblast and other special threats better.
One of the benefits of Modest Diancie I think you forgot to mention is that it gets an OHKO 100% of the time against 0/0 Nidoking and with SR it can start to dream of OHKOs against 0/0 Nidoqueen. It just does more damage in general to them, quite a bit more since a nature boost to a 160 base stat is very very good.
It is very easy to get swept by Diancie if you're running a fast paced team because she is hard to catch up to after a Rock Polish and it is very hard to defend against Diancie if you are running a slower team because the almost always present threat of Magic Bounce on a mixed attacker makes you scared to do anything except use Scald the entire game which is usually a pretty bad idea.
You can use Haze on Crobat for defensive teams which can beat this set since it has more PP than CM and Brave Bird of course will whittle you down eventually especially since you don't have Leftovers. Diamond Storm can beat Blissey if it catches her on the switch and you have SR up so that is pretty important in my opinion.
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 295-348 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 295-348 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 322-381 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It depends a lot on the set I guess and if Blissey can Protect stall but if you get a tiny bit of prior damage like a U-Turn early in the game against Blissey you should be set regardless.
One great defensive answer to Diancie is Mega Swampert which can OHKO with Earthquake with 0 EVs invested and put the rest in Spdef to counter Moonblast and other special threats better.
One of the benefits of Modest Diancie I think you forgot to mention is that it gets an OHKO 100% of the time against 0/0 Nidoking and with SR it can start to dream of OHKOs against 0/0 Nidoqueen. It just does more damage in general to them, quite a bit more since a nature boost to a 160 base stat is very very good.
It is very easy to get swept by Diancie if you're running a fast paced team because she is hard to catch up to after a Rock Polish and it is very hard to defend against Diancie if you are running a slower team because the almost always present threat of Magic Bounce on a mixed attacker makes you scared to do anything except use Scald the entire game which is usually a pretty bad idea.
Diancite is being tested?! This Pokemon is way too broken for UU.
The Rock Polish set demolishes hyper offence, Magic Bounce makes it almost impossible for stall to wear down and 110 speed with Fairy/Ground/Rock (perfect coverage) coming off 160 SpA, it'll crush bulky offence and balanced teams also. It's stats are too overwhelming for UU and it crushes all types of playstyles.
I mean, even Blissey isn't a counter since Diamond Storm 2HKO's.
I mean, in OU it only fears Bullet Punch so how is M-Diancie even being considered in a tier where priority is almost non-existent?
The Rock Polish set demolishes hyper offence, Magic Bounce makes it almost impossible for stall to wear down and 110 speed with Fairy/Ground/Rock (perfect coverage) coming off 160 SpA, it'll crush bulky offence and balanced teams also. It's stats are too overwhelming for UU and it crushes all types of playstyles.
I mean, even Blissey isn't a counter since Diamond Storm 2HKO's.
I mean, in OU it only fears Bullet Punch so how is M-Diancie even being considered in a tier where priority is almost non-existent?
Alright, there are a couple of things wrong with this.
1. Priority is fairly prevalent. There are e speeds and mach punches everywhere.
2. The types of sets determine how it prevails against other play style. Rp sets aren't very good against stall, while cm has a hard time against fast teams. Double dance sets are hard to use thanks to its poor bulk. My stance is still undefined though, it could be potentially not broken or broken, I'm going to wait and see. Sorry if this post came off as harsh, that was not my intention
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