Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Jukain]

I think I failed to be as clear as I could be in my previous post; I was really tired when I wrote it and I'd like to clear up some of the things that I seem to have left ambiguous and/or vague.

Skarmory is certainly a blanket check to the physical metagame (which is why it is featured alongside chansey on nearly every stall team). As such, it is a completely valid and very common counter for defensive teams, not to mention that Metagross has virtually no impact on its already high usage. I was obviously referring to defensive teams, so I don't really get your assumption that I was doing otherwise. Plus, you are greatly underselling Skarmory as a pokemon. Between whirlwind for boosting sweepers, counter for generic physical mons, and spikes/defog to take advantage of defensive mons like ferrothorn, it certainly isn't "one of the easiest pokemon to take advantage of." Stating that Skarm is a counter, and then dismissing it as if it is the worst mon in the tier is not proving much of anything, as it is still showing up on the great majority of defensive and even many balanced teams regardless.

You misunderstood my intentions; a "blanket check" implicates something like Slowbro or Landorus-T that can pivot into a lot of threats and effectively threaten them, wall them, or otherwise pressure them. Skarmory is not really a blanket check to the physical metagame considering the only Pokemon its beats are like Scarftar, non-Fire Blast Garchomp, Landorus-T (but it completely loses momentum on the U-turn), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, certain versions of Diggersby, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Metagross. The reason that it sees so much usage on stall teams is that it's one of basically two options not to get 6-0'd by Mega Pinsir and almost the only option not to get 6-0'd by Diggersby (which actually beats it with Fire Punch LO sets but that's not the topic here), as well as providing crucial Spikes or Defog support. I am not denying that Skarmory is a good Pokemon, but you are overrating it enormously. Skarmory is one of the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of in the tier because it poses essentially zero offensive threat, especially seeing as it absolutely has to run Counter if it wants to beat Mega Metagross. It's an important component of stall teams, but it's not very good on balanced teams in most cases because of this issue. Balance wants pivots, Pokemon that can steal momentum and soft check or counter a variety of threats for the team. Skarmory is mostly a stall Pokemon that sees use on a few balanced teams, but that's always out of necessity more than anything else.

Slowbro is BARELY 2hkod by grass knot. Add just a small amount of special defense (which also allows it to check things like keldeo a bit better, in case you were planning to argue that moving 40 EVs makes Metagross too centralizing), and the threat of a 2hko diminishes quite a bit. Your argument is also flawed in that you are ignoring the practicality of the situation. For slowbro to be 2hkod, Metagross would have to predict the switch and use grass knot, a move that would do close to nothing against any other mon, giving them a free switch to beat/force out metagross. You could argue that the switch to slowbro would be obvious, but that is usually completely untrue given how Metagross' checks and counters are already very prevalent in the metagame. Rather than slowbro, a lando-t switch could happen, or perhaps to bisharp or rotom or (insert counter/check/soft check). Arguing perfect prediction, ESPECIALLY against a mon with regenerator, is most certainly not a proper justification for a mon's prowess. Making a more realistic assumption that slowbro switches in on another move, it now has a free turn to launch a scald/twave/fireblast, none of which the opposing offensive team wants to deal with.

Your first point isn't true, not even close. Assuming you're running the standard amount of SpD that's required for Keldeo, here's the calc:

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even if you increase SpD (I'll include your benchmark and some ~arbitrary~ benchmarks to show just how much investment you need for this:

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Slowbro: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You need 160 SpD EVs to get this into a workable range. No Slowbro that isn't Mega can afford to run this, and Mega doesn't have Leftovers to offset some of the damage, so it's 2HKOed anyways. As far as actually hitting Slowbro with Grass Knot due to the prediction involved...sure prediction goes both ways, but what else were you planning to switch into Mega Metagross? Assuming Slowbro is your best pivot into Mega Metagross (which it probably is), it doesn't require a top-tier player to realize that they can take advantage of this and the idea that it can be hit with Grass Knot on the switch isn't really assuming 'perfect prediction'; it's assuming that the player realizes that the opponent doesn't really have other options, especially if they don't know you have Grass Knot yet.. Even if you have something like defensive Landorus-T + Slowbro, Mega Metagross can still just chip away with Grass Knot

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and then switch out to one of the many things that can deal with Landorus-T. If you're saying that you want to play around with pivoting different Pokemon in to scout, I mean yeah that can work out for you, but you're playing a really dangerous game at this point.

Between poison heal, roost/protect, and teammates, Gliscor most certainly has plenty of longevity. O_o It is one of the most annoying pokemon to take down in the tier for just about any playstyle.

I said I had covered this earlier in my post and if you had read you'd have noticed that I was talking about probabilities involved with Meteor Mash Attack raises, which are heavily amplified over the long term. That said, Gliscor that invests heavily in Defense (not the fast versions) is a fairly solid counter to Mega Metagross combined with other methods of checking it.

Again, perfect prediction =/= realistic. It's not as if ferro is weak to zen headbutt/meteor mash, the two moves that metagross would typically be comfortable spamming. Predicting the ferro switch (in a team that certainly has other checks such as lando-t, slowbro, etc.) is much easier said then done, especially with a move like hammer arm that is relatively weak and will leave metagross vulnerable due to the speed drop. Ferro is free to twave/leech seed.

All that Mega Metagross lost by going for Meteor Mash is a tiny chunk of its health, even disregarding if they anticipate the switch. Hammer Arm does way more damage to Ferrothorn than can be made up for with crippling Mega Metagross with a TWave or recovered from Leech Seed.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn can't do anything besides situationally, taking a risk, getting some chip damage on Mega Metagross. It straight-up loses 1v1 and isn't even a check.

Wearing metagross down 10% is much easier to do than getting lando down 50%. In fact, a u-turn from that very same lando can prevent metagross from being able to tank the eq. Earthquake is admittedly easy to take advantage of, but clearly it isn't all that much of a detriment given that scarf lando is one of the most, if not the most, common mons in the current meta. Arguing that an uninvested landorus has difficulty tanking metagross' strongest attack is quite silly in itself. Keldeo doesn't like switching into earthquakes. Who would have thought?

Actually, I'd argue that it's way easier to wear down Landorus-T than Mega Metagross. Landorus-T is fairly easy to chip at given physical Pokemon that it wants to check, SR damage, and possible ability to punish it with Iron Barbs damage if you're using Ferrothorn. That's actually one of Scarf Landorus-T's biggest downfalls. The difference between EQ being easily taken advantage of here and in other scenarios is that Mega Metagross sort of forces Scarf Lando-T into a dilemma in that it can go for U-turn and gain momentum on a switch with the risk of Metagross staying in for an attack, or going for Earthquake and potentially losing all momentum because the opponent decided to play it safe. Landorus-T also can't really afford take that.

Regardless, taking a relatively large list of checks and counters and picking out a few that are allegedly not full stops (emphasis on allegedly, as noted above) does not particularly help your case. A check is a check is a check, and metagross has lots of them. Since when have we cared about a mon having counters post gen 5 anyway (plus metagross has some)?

I covered pretty much your entire list of Pokemon; you didn't mention that many! You have done nothing to prove that Mega Metagross has a lot of checks, which also simply isn't the case. I pointed out why a few of the Pokemon that you mentioned as checks aren't actually good checks and you still went ahead and asserted this; quite simply I don't understand. Mega Metagross is hard to check because the majority of Pokemon used to revenge kill rely on significant amounts of prior damage and not that much can even beat it 1v1, which is one of the most basic requirements for a check.

Let me rephrase that for you.

a STAB Flare Blitz coming off of 80 attack does not OHKO a pokemon that is weak to it and has 0 defensive investment.

See the issue? It's worth noting that Zen Headbutt does not OHKO either.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 247-292 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Let that sink in for a moment; a STAB Tough Claws Zen Headbutt does not OHKO an uninvested Talonflame of all things. It's worth noting that Banded talonflame does indeed ko by a large margin. Talonflame will indeed have to sacrifice its life to take down a Metagross that it switches into (yes, talonflame beats metagross even when switching in, assuming that metagross zen headbutts rather than using another move too) due to the recoil. One on one, talonflame outright 1hkos a metagross that took a bit of chip damage (or just outright 1hkos with band). As you mentioned, a will-o-wisp from a talonflame also threatens greatly. Yes, metgross can switch out, but talonflame can easily predict that and roost (if it's 1 on 1, then it wouldn't have taken any damage from gross to being with).

what we can learn from this: when in doubt, even frail offensive mons can tank a neutral attack from metagross and threaten in return

Talk whatever trash you want about 81 Attack, but that's just an attempt to save face and you know it. Talonflame is not a weak Pokemon due to its access to high BP stabs and reasonably decent Attack stat backing that, and is a difficult Pokemon to tank hits from. It's impressive as hell for Mega Metagross to tank this hit under any circumstances. That calc proves nothing because Talonflame loses 1v1 with recoil taken into account and can't even switch in with SR up or any prior damage (ie it used an attack). About CB Talonflame OHKOing with Flare Blitz -- CB Talonflame is a bad set in this metagame, which is reinforced by the fact that it sees next to zero usage at higher level play in favor of SD sets, and is a revenge killer at best anyways.

Did much less than I thought. Sorry for the claim! :) Twave is fun tho. It's also worth noting that metagross does not 1hko without rocks/chip damage.

Actually, it loses more than half the time after one turn of Life Orb damage.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 250-295 (83.6 - 98.6%)

More often than not, Thundurus has to switch into Stealth Rock anyways, so even this chance can be nullified and with SR up even going for Thunder Wave is straight-up saccing Thundurus just to make it easier for the rest of the team to deal with something that doesn't care about switching out, making it a completely different scenario than a boosting sweeper which loses most of its usefulness and capability by being para'd.

This is not unique to metagross, though. It is a flaw that comes along with using bisharp to begin with. The issue of offensive mon paired with keldeo is super common, and going against metagross in particular doesn't make bisharp any less viable. Metagross can switch, but it's only fair to mention that it needs to be wary of pursuit. This is a 2-way street.

I don't think you can really risk going for Pursuit with Bisharp considering the stakes of this scenario. Also, yes the potential to lose momentum with Sucker Punch is something that isn't unique to Metagross, but it still has bearing on the effectiveness of Bisharp as a 'check' when it is a shaky one at best, not even OHKOing with Sucker Punch if Metagross is at full health and being stuck in a risky situation even if Metagross is weakened. The unreliability of Sucker Punch is actually one of Bisharp's biggest flaws and can't be discounted just because Metagross isn't the only thing that can take advantage of this.

As shown before, offense has the means to deal with metagross, whether it be through hard checks or preserving frail typical pokes. In the case of scizor, a more defensive sd setup is just as, if not more, common on balanced teams which counters metagross perfectly well. In the case of offensive scizor, this once again requires metagross to predict and hammer arm (given the likelihood that the team will also feature lando, thundy, talon, etc., hammer arm is rarely the most reliable move to spam). Even if the hammer arm connects, scizor is free to switch, and the offensive team can proceed to play around metagross and take advantage of the reduced speed. Metagross is more difficult to play around than the common offensive poke, but it is still similar in that offensive teams must partly rely on playing around it... it is simply the nature of offense. Playing reactively isn't exactly ideal. Offensive scizor isn't the best answer regardless due to it only really being able to chip away with knock off.

The problem is that Mega Metagross matches up really well against so many Pokemon and dealing with it can come at such an enormous cost that even if you can 'deal with' Metagross eventually, the damage will already be done. Playing around it is really hard when even resisted Meteor Mashes against Pokemon that are less defensively inclined can do lots of damage. The Scizor example doesn't even rely on Metagross predicting with Hammer Arm, as you can just chop off ~35% with MMash + SR and switch out to your Scizor answer if you don't predict correctly or don't want to take risks with trying to predict. Offense can play around a lot of threats and has always been forced to adapt, to cope with Pokemon that can pressure so much and put in so much work against the team. The idea that offense has to play around with it was also true for Pokemon like Mega Mawile, Aegislash, etc but these Pokemon were still insanely effective and broken against those teams regardless because they were simply that hard to deal with. It can be argued that Mega Metagross is like this.

Forgive me for my phrasing, but I was meant to say that gross AT MOST speed ties many of the other common offensive megas. Many of them can't 1hko, but they can win against a weakened metagross (and they have the inherent advantage here since they are faster). They also offer the ability to get off strong chip damage to allow other members of the team a much easier time with it (after a high jump kick, for example, it is in ko range for mons like thunderus). This does require the sacrifice of a mon in this scenario, but again, that isn't uncommon at all for offensive teams that end up with a bad one-on-one matchup, and by the time gross comes out, sacking is less of an issue (not to mention that the option of playing around it still exists to get extra damage off). Some slower common megas also fare well (uninvested char-x is only taking 60% from zen headbutt. Bulky ddance can pretty much counter).

As you clarified I can understand the point you're trying to make a little better, and I can't do anything but agree with the fact that if you manage to weaken Mega Metagross to about half, the faster Megas have the ability to revenge kill it. The problem is the cost involved in doing so and that a 50% Metagross is far from useless, just in need of being played a little more carefully. Sure you can revenge kill it from there, but a well-played Metagross can just force that situation again. What do you do then? Sac something else to get the Pokemon that has to revenge kill after something else died or got crippled/heavily weakened to weaken Metagross in the first place? Mega Metagross is way more effective at taking hits and putting offensive pressure on the opposing team that pretty much anything else that does well against offense. Finally, Zen Headbutt 2HKOes even bulky DD Zard X, which is an inferior set anyways, so I'm not sure where that came into play as an actual answer.

What you literally just said:

"This particular third of your team covers metagross very well. I don't think so, tho."

You provided no support, no reasoning, and, further, dismissed the other 2/3 of the team that likely contains, naturally, more checks/the ability to better play around it.

In the rest of your examples, which are appreciably more explanatory, you are completely simplifying the game and laying it out as if there is no other outcome. It is completely unfair to even claim those as the most likely outcomes. Using a hypothetical play-by-play where metagross and the rest of the team magically sustain no damage is absolutely ridiculous.

When I said at the beginning of this post that I looked back at my post and realized I could have been more clear, this was the main part I was talking about. The point I was attempting to convey is that even on teams that are theoretically well-prepared for it through combinations of what are regarded and decent checks/counters, practice can reveal that this isn't even enough. The examples I included are discardable and almost entirely irrelevant to the point I was trying to get across; I was just trying to provide some perspective. I'm not saying that the outcome of Mega Metagross putting enough pressure on the opposing team to break through these combos is the only outcome, but I am saying that it can happen because of Mega Metagross's sheer damage output and coverage, which means that the majority of its best checks and counters still take significant amounts of damage from its attacks. Mega Metagross can pressure the hell out of these Pokemon, limiting their ability to handle other things due to the stress related to tanking hits from Mega Metagross and providing potential for them to falter.

I don't understand. You completely dismiss my anecdotal claim, and then you proceed to make your own, completely lacking in detail or explanation other then "metagross is better than me even tho my team counter metagross." This is especially problematic because it was the basis of this entire section of argument...

This was a blunder and I've kinda rethought this; I'll drop this point.

I would claim that the differences between metagross and other top-tier threats as far as having checks and counters are negligible, and in some cases nonexistent. What exactly is switching into specs/life orb keldeo on an offensive team? Latis are typically the main answer, and those are quickly dealth with by an icy wind. Sure, you can play around keldeo by switching your talonflame in on a predicted secret sword, but the same holds true for handling metagross.

The thing about Keldeo is that it has a lot of offensive checks in addition to the counters. Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Gyarados can all do well against it defensively for offense, not to mention the plethora of offensive checks/revenge killers including Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, Tornadus-T, Raikou, LO Starmie, Talon BB, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade/Gard rking, etc...Scarf can surprise some of these Pokemon, but in that case there's more Pokemon added to this list because Scarf Keldeo is a lot weaker and easier to deal with in general.

This is a complete understatement. As shown above, and as confirmed by you in regard to a number of the previously mentioned checks, Metagross has very few checks/counters that wouldn't already be on a team to begin with. Perhaps it cinches the decision between adding a landorus-t or an excadrill, but that is true about nearly every top-tier mon. If keldeo wasn't around to launch powerful water/fighting attacks, it wouldn't be neccesary to carry a lati on every team. Without clefable, you wouldn't need a heatran/bisharp/other steel. Without bisharp, keldeo wouldn't be such a neccesity.

The fact of the matter is that all of these mons shape your decisions in the teambuilder, and metagross is no different. Can you honestly say: "without metagross, I would be able to run ______."? Correct me if I am mistaken, but I honestly can't think of anything that would have its viability significantly changed.

I won't dispute that Mega Metagross's checks can fit onto teams rather decently to begin with, but you can't compare Mega Metagross to other top-tier threats because there's fewer real options in this regard. Pokemon like Keldeo, Latios (I hope I don't have to explain this one...), etc have a plethora of common checks and even counters to choose from, but Mega Metagross really doesn't. Pokemon that are so difficult to check/counter defensively like Mega Metagross are all much easier to revenge kill and less threatening to offensive teams on the whole because of this; this is what makes Metagross so special and is the reason why it's even being discussed. Mega Metagross is harder to prepare for and furthermore can't really be adequately prepared for at the teambuilder.

 

[Junglekun22801]

(I'm mainly a lurker, so bear with me if I sound stupid or ignorant)

Does this mean M-Metagross could see a suspect test down the road?

I think a Suspect test may be necessary, but I'm not really sure if it should be banned or not.

 

[Sochlo]

What's the general opinion on Mega Sableye?

From what I can gather it's easily the most centralizing Pokemon in OU currently. Do you guys think it's healthy for the metagame? If so why, and at what point does it become too centralizing? I'd like to hear from more experienced members if possible, because insight of Sableye in higher level play would be more valuable.

I honestly don't know what to think of Mega Sableye, but if anything were to be the next suspect I would think it's this thing.

 

[Reverb]

What's the general opinion on Mega Sableye?

From what I can gather it's easily the most centralizing Pokemon in OU currently. Do you guys think it's healthy for the metagame? If so why, and at what point does it become too centralizing? I'd like to hear from more experienced members if possible, because insight of Sableye in higher level play would be more valuable.

I honestly don't know what to think of Mega Sableye, but if anything were to be the next suspect I would think it's this thing.

Its bulky combined with Magic Bounce make a hard to take down, as status moves will not work, and it can tank hits quite well. That being said, its crippling Speed makes it vulnerable, as it cannot switch in without having to take two hits. Moreover, it cannot use an item aside from its Mega Stone, so the lack of Leftovers recovery means its vulnerable to residual damage (e.g. sandstorm). Let's not forget the ubiquitous Scald, which will eventually succeed in burning the little guy (51% chance of a Scald burn after two hits). Finally, it's incredibly weak to fairy types, which are often found on competitive teams.

 

[Sochlo]

Thanks for the reply but I am more interested in hearing how Sableye influences the meta as a whole. I know its flaws and how to beat it etc, I was asking how it affects the meta, teambuilding etc as a whole (especially in higher level play where I can't experience for myself) and whether or not it's centralizing enough for a suspect test to make sense.

 

[Celticpride]

Thanks for the reply but I am more interested in hearing how Sableye influences the meta as a whole. I know its flaws and how to beat it etc, I was asking how it affects the meta, teambuilding etc as a whole (especially in higher level play where I can't experience for myself) and whether or not it's centralizing enough for a suspect test to make sense.

It's important to keep in mind we haven't even gotten to a potential post-Greninja meta yet. It can be hard to judge if something is worthy of testing when we haven't even seen meta development after the previous suspect, or if the previous suspect is even leaving.

 

[Firebird101]

(I'm mainly a lurker, so bear with me if I sound stupid or ignorant)

Does this mean M-Metagross could see a suspect test down the road?

I think a Suspect test may be necessary, but I'm not really sure if it should be banned or not.

There is a possibility as it is arguably the best mon in the metagame and one of the most centralizing figures in OU but like Celticpride said it is way too early to suspect test anything at the moment as we are just about to finish the Greninja suspect test.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I think Mega Metagross has the same problem Greninja has; it's counters are completely different based on its moveset.
If Metagross lacks Earthquake, then Heatran is its main counter.
If it lacks Thunder Punch, then Skarmory is its main counter.
If it lacks Ice Punch, then Gliscor is its main counter.
If it lacks Grass Knot, then Slowbro is its main counter.
And finally, if it lacks Hammer Arm, then Ferrothorn is its main counter.

Mega Metagross's only 100% counter is Scizor, and even then, only Swords Dance variants of [Mega] Scizor can really touch MegaGross.
Though Metagross certainly has checks in Rotom-W and Prankster Sableye.

So, for my money, Mega Metagross will get suspected relatively soon.

 

[Salemance]

I think Mega Metagross has the same problem Greninja has; it's counters are completely different based on its moveset.
If Metagross lacks Earthquake, then Heatran is its main counter.
If it lacks Thunder Punch, then Skarmory is its main counter.
If it lacks Ice Punch, then Gliscor is its main counter.
If it lacks Grass Knot, then Slowbro is its main counter.
And finally, if it lacks Hammer Arm, then Ferrothorn is its main counter.

Mega Metagross's only 100% counter is Scizor, and even then, only Swords Dance variants of [Mega] Scizor can really touch MegaGross.
Though Metagross certainly has checks in Rotom-W and Prankster Sableye.

So, for my money, Mega Metagross will get suspected relatively soon.

Wait what? A few of those mons arent even counters if its carrying one single move which is hammer arm since that beats skarm since it will ventually get slow kough to the point to hit after roost, meaning it will hit for super fective damage and Heatran is pretty hard pressed to take a hammer arm as well.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Wait what? A few of those mons arent even counters if its carrying one single move which is hammer arm since that beats skarm since it will ventually get slow kough to the point to hit after roost, meaning it will hit for super fective damage and Heatran is pretty hard pressed to take a hammer arm as well. Gliscor i can give eince all calcs are 3hkos, but alot of those counters are handled by the standard gknot, hammer, mash and zen core i find.

Many people choose to forgo Hammer Arm simply due to its secondary effect of lowering Speed, which limits MegaGross's sweeping potential. Not to mention that it's completely counterproductive on one of the most common sets, Agility + 3 Attacks.

 

[Damin]

The real mega metagross' counter is bronzong

That's the thing, even though you can counte/check a mega metagross with a certain pokemon depending on its set, however, it's the same thing all over again: a team is not made by only mega metagross, the metal killing machine has pals, and these pals can kill the mons that give metagross troubles.
Do I think it needs to be suspected? Can't answer that yet, the meta is going to change a little bit without ninja, so, I do believe, we have to wait and see how it's going to behave on this new meta.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

We have other frogs to fry currently. There's no point in discussing Megagross' fate as of now. As Celticpride stated, we have yet to have a 100% ninja-less meta yet, so it's difficult to pass judgement as of where we stand at this time.

 

[Karxrida]

I think Mega Metagross has the same problem Greninja has; it's counters are completely different based on its moveset.
If Metagross lacks Earthquake, then Heatran is its main counter.
If it lacks Thunder Punch, then Skarmory is its main counter.
If it lacks Ice Punch, then Gliscor is its main counter.
If it lacks Grass Knot, then Slowbro is its main counter.
And finally, if it lacks Hammer Arm, then Ferrothorn is its main counter.

Mega Metagross's only 100% counter is Scizor, and even then, only Swords Dance variants of [Mega] Scizor can really touch MegaGross.
Though Metagross certainly has checks in Rotom-W and Prankster Sableye.

So, for my money, Mega Metagross will get suspected relatively soon.

The same can be said for quite a few Pokemon, actually; the difference between Froggy and Gross is that Mega Metagross' answers are stupidly common to the point you can find teams with 2-3 of them without having to go out of their way to deal with it (plus they not niche in the slightest).

 

[master_marshmallow]

I think the main difference between frog and gross is the mega slot usage. The fact that the mega slot exists makes gross less splashable than ninja frog.
Being said, gross loses to big fire hits and since Talonflame is one of the best physical Mons in the meta I think the idea of checking him is less stressful than ninja.

 

[wolfenstein]

I think the main difference between frog and gross is the mega slot usage. The fact that the mega slot exists makes gross less splashable than ninja frog.
Being said, gross loses to big fire hits and since Talonflame is one of the best physical Mons in the meta I think the idea of checking him is less stressful than ninja.

MegaGross is faster than every fire pokemon in both OU, BL and UU bar talonflame which doesn't ohko it unless it's banded anyway. So I dont get your point, it can still 2hko most of them anyway and them being weak to stealth rocks doesn't help that. Also I've never found the mega slot to be a problem for anything actually. If a pokemon is this good then using up a mega slot is not a cripple to your team, especially if no other mega is as good as gross or completes the same role as him. Honestly I find it harder to check gross than to check ninja. Because of its bulk it will almost always take more than one neutral or even super effective hit to KO it, so you are bound to lose at least 1 or 2 mons before this thing goes down and considering that it is faster than the majority of pokemon it's weak to it can usually do heavy damage to anything trying to check it.

On another note because this will probably be argued upon, I think it's perfectly fine comparing Mega Metagross to greninja. Not in the sense that they complete the same roles and are the same thing, but rather that they both have a big and unavoidable impact on certain archetypes and that both greninja and metagross are extremely hard to counter and check respectively, for obvious reasons brought up before.

 

[master_marshmallow]

MegaGross is faster than every fire pokemon in both OU, BL and UU bar talonflame which doesn't ohko it unless it's banded anyway. So I dont get your point, it can still 2hko most of them anyway and them being weak to stealth rocks doesn't help that. Also I've never found the mega slot to be a problem for anything actually. If a pokemon is this good then using up a mega slot is not a cripple to your team, especially if no other mega is as good as gross or completes the same role as him. Honestly I find it harder to check gross than to check ninja. Because of its bulk it will almost always take more than one neutral or even super effective hit to KO it, so you are bound to lose at least 1 or 2 mons before this thing goes down and considering that it is faster than the majority of pokemon it's weak to it can usually do heavy damage to anything trying to check it.

On another note because this will probably be argued upon, I think it's perfectly fine comparing Mega Metagross to greninja. Not in the sense that they complete the same roles and are the same thing, but rather that they both have a big and unavoidable impact on certain archetypes and that both greninja and metagross are extremely hard to counter and check respectively, for obvious reasons brought up before.

I need calcs, because I'm pretty sure SD Talonflame completely counters any Mgross not running thunder punch, which is a bad move anyway because ice punch is more important coverage.

Off topic, I have been prematurely looking at ninja replacements and I really like Starmie. It can pack Hydro Pump and Grass Knot which are the same as ninja, and HP fire hits the same targets it did for ninja, with the exception being Skarmory because Thunderbolt is an option. Bolt Beam plus Hydro Pump and either Psychic or Psyshock for coverage and/or mixed attacking seems like a fairly comparable fix. Thunderbolt hits certain ninja checks that can cover the loss of Dark Pulse and Gunk Shot like Slowbro and Azu, as well as hitting Skarmory and other bulky waters that once gave ninja trouble. Biggest thing is that fairy once again becomes a counter because outside of HP, starmie has no access to steel or poison coverage.
This is one of the reasons why I'm leaning towards Psyshock because physical coverage will at least do something to most fairy types because usually they are strong on the special side.
It also has access to dazzling gleam if Sable Eye happens to become the meta defining Pokemon, which can replace psychic coverage by giving up STAB in favor of superior meta coverage. Since fairy hits pretty much everything you would want psychic for with the exception of Cruel who you have thunderbolt for anyway.
Thoughts?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I need calcs, because I'm pretty sure SD Talonflame completely counters any Mgross not running thunder punch, which is a bad move anyway because ice punch is more important coverage.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not sure what you consider a counter, but Talonflame isn't one.

 

[master_marshmallow]

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not sure what you consider a counter, but Talonflame isn't one.

That's what I wanted to see, because if Roost can put it back into 2hko range then it would work. But it cannot unless bulk up puts Zen Headbutt under 50 %. Even then, it's not that good.

 

[preserve]

i cant believe metagross is being so talked. its been around since oras been released and it didnt changed. did greninja threatened it that bad skarmory wit rocky helmet can wear it down. hammer arm lowers its speed which is a downfall. tpunch loses coverage and hp fire is like hp ice on terra.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

i cant believe metagross is being so talked. its been around since oras been released and it didnt changed. did greninja threatened it that bad skarmory wit rocky helmet can wear it down. hammer arm lowers its speed which is a downfall. tpunch loses coverage and hp fire is like hp ice on terra.

Oras only month and half old. Mega Mence and greninja basically overshadowed it and with them gone it was quite dominant on suspect ladder.
Just because skarm checks it doesn't make it broken, nor does it make it not broken.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

i cant believe metagross is being so talked. its been around since oras been released and it didnt changed. did greninja threatened it that bad skarmory wit rocky helmet can wear it down. hammer arm lowers its speed which is a downfall. tpunch loses coverage and hp fire is like hp ice on terra.

Skarm can't roost after Hammer Arm has dropped Megagross' speed because it then makes it weak toHammer Arm, so it doesn't even need Thunderpunch. I'm sure Megagross can deal with a couple Rocky Helmet recoils if need be. Also, it's been out about two months, one of those months Mega Mence was destroying everything, and the other Greninja, so, we haven't had a meta yet where megagross could work to the best of his ability.

 

[Karxrida]

Skarmory and Ferrothorn shouldn't be running Rocky Helmet anyway since it lets Magnezone/Magneton trap them.

 

[dwarfstar]

Skarm can't roost after Hammer Arm has dropped Megagross' speed because it then makes it weak toHammer Arm, so it doesn't even need Thunderpunch. I'm sure Megagross can deal with a couple Rocky Helmet recoils if need be. Also, it's been out about two months, one of those months Mega Mence was destroying everything, and the other Greninja, so, we haven't had a meta yet where megagross could work to the best of his ability.

It takes multiple Hammer Arm hits for Metagross to underspeed Skarmory, actually, during which time Skarm can just phaze it out. That being said, Thunderpunch still isn't the best option coverage-wise, so you're right about that much.

 

[Wargreymon]

Couldn't skarmory just start running counter? That's a viable move on skarmory anyway and it means hammer arm Metagross is not a problem because it needs more than one hammer arm to be slower... or am I missing something? Regardless, it's probably inevitable that it will at least get tested. It's true that we need to wait for the meta to settle down after Ninja's fate is decided but lets be real here, it has ridiculous stats and, aside from a few common weaknesses, a fantastic typing to go with the stats. I have no opinion on it yet because I definitely don't have enough experience playing against it or using it but on paper it ticks every box for a suspect test. Certainly the best mega in OU.

Who knows though? Maybe it will follow the path of Charizard X, who somehow managed to avoid a suspect test. I never once thought Zard X should have been banned, but I was surprised as hell that it didn't get tested.

 

[Miridy]

Skarmory can also run 29 speed ivs in order to still be slower than Mega Metagross after two Hammer Arms and having an easier time to Counter/Phazing him out.
That being said, I'm still not sure about Metagross, while I hate the coinflips it forces with Sucker Punch/Pursuit Bisharp, and that it pretty much destroys majority of offensive teams is troublesome as I can't think of something that helps against Metagross without ruining momentum for offense, kinda like Greninja, but I believe that we should wait a bit, especially if Greninja gets banned, to study better Metagross' impact in the Metagame.