Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Where shall I begin?
What about your Serperior set? Sub+Taunt is a no-go on it. It is supposed to clean and sweep so please use Dragon Pulse.

Your reasons to not raise Clefable are not valid. Random calcs don't prove anything. Despite that Clefable should raise because of the amount of support it brings for its team with all of its sets and not because it is a sweeper like MegaMeta or Lopunny.

I will keep it short because I bet I got ninja'ed while I am typing this.

I fixed up my post cause i realised how much of a dumbass i looked.

Taunt is p good for stopping stall, if you really need taunt i guess you can run it. In the team i tested it on, I needed a stallbreaker so i looked at Serperior, as he is a great offensive stallbreaker, too.

Because Clefable runs mono-fairy offense. Right?

2nd. When you do a set-up sweeper, that usually means you've eliminated anything on the opposing team that surefire stop to it.

3rd. Getting Clefable to +2 is not that hard unless you've really fucked up.

4th. CM Fable tend to work as a secondary win condition.

Lastly, Clefable is not merely offensive. Its supportive as well.

In some cases this doesnt happen. If you screw up even one thing you can make your sweeper useless. Clef doesnt run mono fairy off, either.

I mean, its a little hard to have 3 turns as a sitting duck, y kno.

I cant see Clefable (CM) working as a secondary win condition at all. unless you are facing stall then i guess so...

I elaborated on that i think Clefable is a godly supportive mon.

I honestly dont understand why we want it to S rank though. It has its features and shit but it does require support if it runs its CM set and has not the best offensive presence. A pokemon needs some support moves and a really good offensive movepool in this meta.

As a support mon, this definetly could be an S rank mon. but again, its offensive capabilities hinder it imo. And I know you guys dont think it should be offensive, but why do we run CM sets? I find it extremely easy to eliminate CM Clef anyways. Is it only me?

Editing again so i dont double post like an idiot: I think im seeing the pattern. I guess it can work as an S rank mon, but its definetly gonna be the worst of the 4.

 

[Halcyon.]

I fixed up my post cause i realised how much of a dumbass i looked.

Taunt is p good for stopping stall, if you really need taunt i guess you can run it. In the team i tested it on, I needed a stallbreaker so i looked at Serperior, as he is a great offensive stallbreaker, too.



In some cases this doesnt happen. If you screw up even one thing you can make your sweeper useless. Clef doesnt run mono fairy off, either.

I mean, its a little hard to have 3 turns as a sitting duck, y kno.

I cant see Clefable (CM) working as a secondary win condition at all. unless you are facing stall then i guess so...

I elaborated on that i think Clefable is a godly supportive mon.

I honestly dont understand why we want it to S rank though. It has its features and shit but it does require support if it runs its CM set and has not the best offensive presence. A pokemon needs some support moves and a really good offensive movepool in this meta.

As a support mon, this definetly could be an S rank mon. but again, its offensive capabilities hinder it imo. And I know you guys dont think it should be offensive, but why do we run CM sets? I find it extremely easy to eliminate CM Clef anyways. Is it only me?

Clefable is a Pokemon that has everything going for it and that's why it should be S rank. It's a wonderful support mon with access to SR, T-Wave, Wish, and Heal Bell, and you can use any of these moves if they so fit your team. It's a great secondary wincon (you can't just say it isn't and say you never have trouble with it lol), as it works very well in tandem with other special Attackers and its very few checks (which again, depend on the set it runs because it has something to help it beat all of the things people use to beat it) such as Heatran, Metagross, and Mega Venusaur are notorious for being easy to wear down. It works as a great glue mon, fitting on teams quite easily and covering a lot of roles in a single slot (both defensive and offensive ones depending on the set). Going by the definition in the OP, its absolutely S rank. At least more so than Landorus-T...

Not every mon needs to be 100% offensive to be in S rank. See: Gen V Jirachi.

 

[pretty little liAr]

IM BACK!

Wow! Its been a long time! What was it, like 4 months? Well, im back and i feel goood.

First off i would like to talk about Serperior. Ive been testing the guy and its Sub+Taunt+LS+HP Fire set destroys Rain Teams and really just screws over Water types in general. People seem to say its not that powerful but then proceed to not show any calcs... And worst of all is that no one talks about his amazing speed stat! He is the only viable Grass type above base 101 speed in OU meta. Sadly this guy has many problems and suffers against shit like Heatran and Chansey. I think B is fine for it now, as with the correct support, it can shred through teams.

Now, second part. Clefable should be A+. I cant stress this enough: He is powerful and tedious, but he has answers and he sure as hell has a lot of answers. Definetly not offensive at all, and every team runs something that resists Fairy types. Im gonna run some with 252 and some with 0.

[Do you even want to see these calcs...]

If you even let Clef CM twice then thats a problem itself. Good typing, just not a good offensive presence even at +2 and is definetly not as good as MMeta, MLop, or MSab.

EDIT: To clear my argument better (TRC liked my post so that means its a "shitpost" lol) I think clef is a godly supportive mon, but in a meta hellbent on offensive pressure i dont feel like Clef has it.

Their are quite a few things wrong with your post Mr. Richie Person (Not so sure why everyone seems so troubled by your return.)
Firstly, Serperior with no dragon pulse... That is not a recipe for sucsess as pretty every viable dragon other then garchomp and (lol) flygon resist all your moves. Secondly, Mega Sceptile, Whisicott and Ludicolo under rain all have speed stats higher 101... Next, are trying to say clefable is powerful? Cause it's not, at least by OU standards. Also, this is just a nitpick, but would mind listing some answers to clefable? Not denying it has some, but you really should at least explain why it should not rise in detail, as some of the Clefable to S rank arguments are solid.
Note: I don't oppose Serperior to B.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Their are quite a few things wrong with your post Mr. Richie Person (Not so sure why everyone seems so troubled by your return.)
Firstly, Serperior with no dragon pulse... That is not a recipe for sucsess as pretty every viable dragon other then garchomp and (lol) flygon resist all your moves. Secondly, Mega Sceptile, Whisicott and Ludicolo under rain all have speed stats higher 101... Next, are trying to say clefable is powerful? Cause it's not, at least by OU standards. Also, this is just a nitpick, but would mind listing some answers to clefable? Not denying it has some, but you really should at least explain why it should not rise in detail, as some of the Clefable to S rank arguments are solid.
Note: I don't oppose Serperior to B.

Whimsicott and Ludicolo are more irrelivant than Forrtress and DPulse was already covered...
The thing about Clef is that it can bait almost all of its checks with a simple moveslot change due to its above average movepool.

 

[Roxachronic]

I agree with serperior rising through I think now with grenija gone that 113 speed has become really quite smexy as it's ; 1 less faster pokemon that can ko it and 2 it's still faster than base 111 or bellow pokemon which is a boon, i'd personally say it fits in with the B+, given it's speed, doesn't take up a mega slot, power even before a leaf storm due it's power and stab boost and access to 100% paralysis in glare, but tbh i don't have enough clout to back it up atm, still testing serperiors abilities atm , but but it's been a asset in general, for a strong grass type that doesn't require a mega slot + isn't horribly slow.

Agreeing on dropping M-sceptitle, the competition for mega slot is still harsh and with ninja gone serperior's unique niche as a contary grass sweper and lack of tkaing up a mega slot hurt m-spectile.

With out greninja destroying it with stab gunkshot, clefable has dfinately moved up in th world with it's ability to go, toe to toe with mega saybleye and com out on top very single time, thanks to it's stab and unaware, countering an SR stone cold is quite the boon.

With no competition for a megaslot and the ever usefulness of a speedy bulky electric type raikou is pretty useful on alot of teams, especially with that great base 115 speed, made even better with out greninja around to gunk shot his weaker defence. A+

The problem with Serperior is that he has bad 1 vs 1 matches against offense mons(M-Metagross,M-Altaria,Charizard,Scarf Lando-T,Scarf Latios,Starmie,Tornadus-T,Raikou,Heatran,Talonflame,M-Lopunny,Scizor,Ferrothorn,etc.) Some of which are very popular mons, and a lot of these mons can come even on a predicted Leaf Storm and threaten to kill you, or course you still have Glare to cripple it on incoming, but on the next turn you will still be unboosted which forces you to retreat your Serp or get killed, (of course some pokes are dependant on the HP you are running), still M-Sceptile loses to half of them 1 vs 1 also on top of not being good to Stall(which Serperior can decimate), but the extra speed can become very important late game if for example your opponent lacks priority and his scarfers are gone, but again that can be covered to a an extent with your own scarfer without wasting a Mega slot, but even then M-Sceptile does not get locked into only one attack alongside outspeeding all the unboosted meta,which makes him a pretty good cleaner.

So that is why I think Serperior should be B at min(B+ at most) and Sceptile should drop a rank(B+) because Greninja is gone, but it still has great late game cleaning capabilities(since it has Focus Blast to threat Heatran while still is able to run HP Fire).

Also not sure about Raikou raising that much, A-? Sure, not costing a Mega slot which is now very important while still checking a good amount of threats, even beating some of them 1 vs 1(or even switching into them) alongside providing offensive momentum, I don't see why it should not be here, still it relies on prediction sometimes to do its job consistently, it is not like Lando-T who just comes and clicks on U-Turn, the fact that Volt Swich can be stopped by the likes of Lando-T or Scarf Chomp could make you put at disadvantage, you still threat to OHKO them with HP Ice tough, so I think A- (A at best)is a good spot for Raikou.

I mean Raikou is like SSS rank for me since I really like the poke, but in ORAS OU it is not that high.

 

[asterat]

How about we don't bash Richie for no good reason. I see nothing particularly awful about his post and you guys look like idiots sucking each other off to how bad someone is. Everyone starts somewhere. Plus, if he is just here to troll, you are all egging him on.

Anyways, why is Landorus-I still in A+. It's a good wall breaker, but that's about it. It is really easy to revenge kill, and is a huge opportunity cost that offers pretty much no defensive synergy. The opportunity cost is that you can't use Landorus-T, which is a pretty huge deal. He is hands down the easiest mon to slide into pretty much any team successfully. Giving that up is actually a pretty costly choice. Next up is that 101 speed is really not so great anymore. Metagross, Gallade, Lopunny, and Diancie are new challenges while old ones such as Latios and Keldeo still top the usage charts. Don't get me wrong, Landorus is still a really good wall breaker, but it needs specific moves to maintain this. HP Ice for Gliscor, Earth Power for spammable STAB, Focus Blast to nail Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and Knock Off for Chansey and Gengar. Any other sets such as calm mind or rock polish sacrifice significant wall breaking power that Landorus is bluntly much less effective without. This set on its own is incredibly vulnerable to Focus Blast misses, and with this move being so unreliable, a lot of mediocre checks are actually all you need to beat this guy. For example, Rotom-W is somewhat of a counter these days. In addition, Mega Latias coming into play is a hard counter, it can come in on anything and set up. I honestly just think it's too slow and not impossible to work around, plus it is unwieldy for teambuilding and means you can't use Nyandorus. Not awful flaws, but too much for A+. I think A- or so would be much more suitable, if even A.

Raikou needs to move up. I made a lengthy post before that got a half dozen likes or so, and so have others, but nothing is being done :/

 

[pretty little liAr]

Whimsicott and Ludicolo are more irrelivant than Forrtress and DPulse was already covered...
The thing about Clef is that it can bait almost all of its checks with a simple moveslot change due to its above average movepool.

Fortress... I would not even bring that thing up if I were you... Whimiscott and Ludicolo are on the viability rankings for a reason, the former due to decent typing and prankster and the later is a decent rain sweeper. Also you said viable grass types. Not popular grass types.

 

[Karxrida]

Espeon recently had its analysis deleted for being outclassed as anti-hazard support and as a Screener, and imo should be moved to D since its only niche is being a GeoPass sweeper (which requires an entire team dedicated to it).

 

[Josh Morales]

I don't really see how you can justify Flygon being D-rank and then say Mega Steelix should be unranked... They're both almost completely outclassed by another OU 'mon so if you're gonna rank one of them then put both of them in D rank or rank neither of them. Seriously, who thought Flygon was less outclassed by Garchomp than Mega Steelix is outclassed by Mega Aggron? I can't imagine the logic at play here.

 

[Stef0w]

I don't really see how you can justify Flygon being D-rank and then say Mega Steelix should be unranked... They're both almost completely outclassed by another OU 'mon so if you're gonna rank one of them then put both of them in D rank or rank neither of them. Seriously, who thought Flygon was less outclassed by Garchomp than Mega Steelix is outclassed by Mega Aggron? I can't imagine the logic at play here.

Mega aggron's role= Bulky steel wall.

Mega steelix's role= Bulky steel wall.

Flygon's role= Bulky defogger with a resistance or immunity to all hazards.

Garchomp's role= Rocks setter/Choice user/sweeper.

Flygon and garchomp doesnt have anything to do with each other except typing, the same cant be said about Mega Agg/Lix.

 

[Wargreymon]

I don't really see how you can justify Flygon being D-rank and then say Mega Steelix should be unranked... They're both almost completely outclassed by another OU 'mon so if you're gonna rank one of them then put both of them in D rank or rank neither of them. Seriously, who thought Flygon was less outclassed by Garchomp than Mega Steelix is outclassed by Mega Aggron? I can't imagine the logic at play here.

Flygon is not outclassed by Garchomp, their roles are completely different. Flygon is a defogger, and it's ranked D because as a defogger it has the benefit of being less annoyed by entry hazards than any other defogger/hazard remover.
Mega Aggron and Steelix perform basically the exact same roles, except Aggron does it better.

Edit: Greninja'd

 

[Sweep]

For those trying to compare Omastar and Kingdra, I instead suggest you use them on the same team. In this metagame, you will NOT be disappointed, even if it's slightly inconsistent on the ladder due to the nature of Hydro Pump. There's breaking down your checks and counters using similar Pokemon....and then there's the ridiculous monstrosity known and Kingdra + Omastar.

 

[Tramuntana]

yeah, if you make good use of the rain turns, even the shell smash set of omastar may work. with rain support, and with the help of specs kingdra and either megagross, megaman or mega swampert around to weaken the opposing walls, life orb shell smash omastar is a monstruous late game cleaner. just remember the "checks and counters" section of BW ubers ;)

EDIT: also, tokyo tom, thank you for bein the one who finnally gave me a good answer and did not miss the point of my comments like everyone did before. im not a troll, just thatevery reply was basically a "what is wrong with my posts nobody ever understands them?"
just allow me to clarify that when i said "the spinners and deffogers worthy a mention in OU" and mentioned starmie, i meant DPPt and BW starmie, which is when he was in OU. now he is UU and his spinner set is hardly viable if i remember right. same goes for tentacruel, minus being almost unviable thanks to his nice typing and defenses

 

[MattyBrollic]

I disagree with Mega Sceptile dropping. I think that it should move up, if anything. Just take a look at all of the Pokemon ahead of it from A through S. Mega Sceptile can clean up a vast majority of those Pokemon with little team support. Hazard setting offensive teams allow Sceptile to not only revenge kill with powerful Leaf Storms, but to also pull off many late game sweeps. Also, Sceptile should benefit from megas such as Lopunny and Manectric moving up in the rankings because it can outspeed and OHKO both with Leaf Storm. I also think that people overlook how useful it is to be able to shut down volt switch and thunder wave. On top of all of the the offensive Pokemon that Mega Sceptile can outspeed and KO with ease, it is also able to completely shut down Rotom-W and heavily check Thundurus.

Serperior is certainly a good Pokemon, but it is outspeed by basically every relevant choice scarfer, and performs a fairly different roll than Mega-Sceptile. In my opinion, their rolls are too different to cause Sceptile to drop.

Mega Sceptile - A

 

[Roxachronic]

I disagree with Mega Sceptile dropping. I think that it should move up, if anything. Just take a look at all of the Pokemon ahead of it from A through S. Mega Sceptile can clean up a vast majority of those Pokemon with little team support. Hazard setting offensive teams allow Sceptile to not only revenge kill with powerful Leaf Storms, but to also pull off many late game sweeps. Also, Sceptile should benefit from megas such as Lopunny and Manectric moving up in the rankings because it can outspeed and OHKO both with Leaf Storm. I also think that people overlook how useful it is to be able to shut down volt switch and thunder wave. On top of all of the the offensive Pokemon that Mega Sceptile can outspeed and KO with ease, it is also able to completely shut down Rotom-W and heavily check Thundurus.

Serperior is certainly a good Pokemon, but it is outspeed by basically every relevant choice scarfer, and performs a fairly different roll than Mega-Sceptile. In my opinion, their rolls are too different to cause Sceptile to drop.

Mega Sceptile - A

M-Sceptile is also outspeed by every (ar at least a good amount of them) choice scarfers(Latis and Jolly Lando-T in particular), so your argument agaisnt Serperior can be used also to M-Sceptile(at least to an extent), the things that you mentioned about M-Sceptile are not that impressive.

Since if we take hazard support into account(like you did with M-Sceptile) Lando-T can kill M-Lopunny(and come in much easily because intimidate.) and M-Manectric, and also stops Volt Switch and Thunder Wave, now add a pokemon that can cripple a lot of the tier with Knock Off and also provide U-Turn(which are huge advantages over M-Sceptile) and also the fact that that it doesn't cost a Mega slot.

The problem with their roles is that Serperior provides one that is not so easy to do for other pokemon, and that is breaking stall, a pokemon that can break M-Sableye and M-Slowbro in one package is something more encessary than outspeeding a couple of pokes which can be done by Scarf Latis(who kill M-Lopunny),Talonflame, or Lando-T(as stated previously), and those are the ones at the top of my mind, and of course the most important factor is that they don't require a Mega slot to do it.

Also don't undersell Serperior, the fact that M-Sceptile goes at -2 after Leaf Storm when Serperior is at +2 can be very important when cleaning.

For that reason I think M-Sceptile should be B+
It is not a bad mon by any means, it does decent damage with an incredible speed, and he is not locked into a single move like Scarfers, but the fact that his roles can be covered by non-mega pokemon should make him drop.

 

[malomyotismon]

The problem with Serperior is that he has bad 1 vs 1 matches against offense mons(M-Metagross,M-Altaria,Charizard,Scarf Lando-T,Scarf Latios,Starmie,Tornadus-T,Raikou,Heatran,Talonflame,M-Lopunny,Scizor,Ferrothorn,etc.) Some of which are very popular mons, and a lot of these mons can come even on a predicted Leaf Storm and threaten to kill you, or course you still have Glare to cripple it on incoming, but on the next turn you will still be unboosted which forces you to retreat your Serp or get killed, (of course some pokes are dependant on the HP you are running), still M-Sceptile loses to half of them 1 vs 1 also on top of not being good to Stall(which Serperior can decimate), but the extra speed can become very important late game if for example your opponent lacks priority and his scarfers are gone, but again that can be covered to a an extent with your own scarfer without wasting a Mega slot, but even then M-Sceptile does not get locked into only one attack alongside outspeeding all the unboosted meta,which makes him a pretty good cleaner.

So that is why I think Serperior should be B at min(B+ at most) and Sceptile should drop a rank(B+) because Greninja is gone, but it still has great late game cleaning capabilities(since it has Focus Blast to threat Heatran while still is able to run HP Fire).

Also not sure about Raikou raising that much, A-? Sure, not costing a Mega slot which is now very important while still checking a good amount of threats, even beating some of them 1 vs 1(or even switching into them) alongside providing offensive momentum, I don't see why it should not be here, still it relies on prediction sometimes to do its job consistently, it is not like Lando-T who just comes and clicks on U-Turn, the fact that Volt Swich can be stopped by the likes of Lando-T or Scarf Chomp could make you put at disadvantage, you still threat to OHKO them with HP Ice tough, so I think A- (A at best)is a good spot for Raikou.

I mean Raikou is like SSS rank for me since I really like the poke, but in ORAS OU it is not that high.

ooops i had mean to type A- for raikou lol sorry

 

[teamsnickers]

volcarona should be a minus
its typing in this metagame is key making it very easy to teambulid around
a example of a team around this beast is one me and vapo made http://pastebin.com/ggVjZYJC bulky rona is the BEST set with 85/65/105 bulk
fun fact: only weak to 3 types (and one of them is flying) and resist 5 after a quiver dance this thing can make havoc on a team and with the greninja ban not many things can stop this monster if you have a team around it and make sure rocks remain away this thing can sweep

NOTE: that is a old team when greninja was still overused

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

just allow me to clarify that when i said "the spinners and deffogers worthy a mention in OU" and mentioned starmie, i meant DPPt and BW starmie, which is when he was in OU. now he is UU and his spinner set is hardly viable if i remember right. same goes for tentacruel, minus being almost unviable thanks to his nice typing and defenses

Actually both Starmie and Tentacruel are rather viable atm, Starmie cause of the Greninja ban, it's speedtier is quite good again and it's offensive set hurts while it's defensive set can check/counter MegaGross, Tentacruel puts in work vs Fairies and is often combined with MegaSableye as a fairy switch in.

 

[kiloments]

So I'm going to suggest, or rather, nominate something. Hear me out on this. I'm currently on my phone so I'll do a more formal post in a bit giving my reasons for it, but for now, you can discuss amongst yourselves.

Mega Gyarados -> A-

 

[SketchUp]

So I'm going to suggest, or rather, nominate something. Hear me out on this. I'm currently on my phone so I'll do a more formal post in a bit giving my reasons for it, but for now, you can discuss amongst yourselves.

Mega Gyarados -> A-

Mega Gyarados is an awesome pokemon both as a stallbreaker (vs. stall) and as a sweeper (vs. balance) Mega Gyarados with Taunt + DD 6-0s stall if it doesn't get scald burns or if the opponent is lacking defensive mega altaria, chesnaught or tangrowth. Against offense, Jolly DD kills everything after only 1 dragon dance (which is not hard to get with its amazing bulk and intimidate pre-mega) besides by Keldeo, Azumarill and Breloom. It is not hard to set-up with Gyara and it is very difficult to stop it late game when it is at +1. It's easily one of the most solid A+ rank pokemon at the moment and dropping would be a crime.

 

[heritage]

So I'm going to suggest, or rather, nominate something. Hear me out on this. I'm currently on my phone so I'll do a more formal post in a bit giving my reasons for it, but for now, you can discuss amongst yourselves.

Mega Gyarados -> A-

If you're really that adamant about dropping Mega Gyarados, can you at least give some reason? If anything, Gyarados has S rank potential now in ORAS since it beats Mega Sableye 1 on 1 and it has Crunch now, so...
Care to explain? At least give him a chance.

 

[kiloments]

If you're really that adamant about dropping Mega Gyarados, can you at least give some reason? If anything, Gyarados has S rank potential now in ORAS since it beats Mega Sableye 1 on 1 and it has Crunch now, so...
Care to explain? At least give him a chance.

Like I said I'm on my phone and I'd rather write up a proper explanation. I will admit that A- is a bit harsh but it was just me being upset with me not being able to use it as much as I would like to in battles. But a drop to at least A is what I'm feeling atm.

 

[heritage]

Like I said I'm on my phone and I'd rather write up a proper explanation. I will admit that A- is a bit harsh but it was just me being upset with me not being able to use it as much as I would like to in battles. But a drop to at least A is what I'm feeling atm.

Ok, well if you aren't finding opportunities to set up in nearly every battle then you're obviously not using Gyarados right to begin with. Maybe with a little more experience on your part you'd change your mind
I might actually nominate Gyarados to go to S soon, but we'll see.

 

[Alfalfa]

I would like to start discussion on dropping Latias to A Rank. While the niche of Healing Wish is indeed nice to have over Latios, Latias is a lot less threatening than many of the Pokemon in A+ Rank, such as M-Gardevoir, Gengar, M-Gyarados, Zard X, Bisharp, etc. It is also really to take advantage of, because Latias tends to run only Draco Meteor + Psyshock, making it really to take advantage of or overwhelm, especially considering Mega Metagross and Sableye are running around everywhere. While Healing Wish support is very valuable, Latias literally offers nothing else over Latios aside from some extra bulk (which you are sacrificing valuable power for), and its inability to threaten many playstyles and teams, even with a Life Orb, is not a good sign. I nominate it to drop to A Rank, but I would like others to discuss it as well.

 

[Kurona]

If Latias drops to A rank, I know I proposed it drop to B+ before but imo Mega Latias should never be on the same rank as it's non-mega counterpart. It's just not as good and versatile and really takes away from the amazing traits Latias can offer a team. If Latias is to go to A, Mega Latias should at least drop to A-.