My mistake, but still. The phrase has nothing to do with Twitch either.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
I was making a reference to Twitch Plays Pokémon, having that basic idea replace the monkeys to make a joke and get my point across at the same time. Cause it still is a mostly random button mashing mess.
Ah, now I see. I would have replaced everything to make the joke a bit more clear like:
"Connect Twitch to thousands of keyboard and eventually they'd play through an entire Pokemon game."
I actually think that Mega Stones are closer to ordinary evolutionary stones, albeit that their effects are temporary. I can't help but think that they might be very complex genetic modification/enhancement/therapy devices, engineered to grow underground, probably by the Clefairy or Beheeham, though I wouldn't discount mighty Arceus.
Alright, I just remembered something annoying in BW1. How on earth does Cheren know exactly when I have obtained a Gym badge? It seems that he actively stalked me and challenge me right after I won the badge. And why is he so obsessed with fighting me (read: wasting my time) since he didn't bother trying anything new and has been curb-stomped (like Voldemort killing Cedric Diggory ) each time?
Speaking of BW1, we know that N uses new Pokemon from each area and releases them after he fights you. However, in the final battle, except for the legendary dragon, nothing on his team makes sense. The Zoroark isn't even the Zorua you see in the opening (since that Zorua was given to you in BW2). The fossils, Klinklang and Vanilluxe are really out of place.
Speaking of BW1, we know that N uses new Pokemon from each area and releases them after he fights you. However, in the final battle, except for the legendary dragon, nothing on his team makes sense. The Zoroark isn't even the Zorua you see in the opening (since that Zorua was given to you in BW2). The fossils, Klinklang and Vanilluxe are really out of place.
Cheren's role is apparently the idiot who is convinced that your his rival (which is well and all, though you'll constantly curbstomp him).
He was no more in my league than I am in the league of the toughest and cleverest of trainers in the competitions.
Zoroark is most likely 'cause of his hair lol But IDK why any of the others made sense.
Because Cheren is just that smart, after all he's wearing glasses. Okay, honestly, it's just to get the story moving. I suppose you could say that maybe Bianca told him since to enter the Dreamyard's inner area you need Cut and to use that you need the Trio Badge. Or maybe since you're on the route right after Castelia he figured you got the Badge since you wouldn't move on without it (remember he's a childhood friend so its presumed they know how each other would act). But as I said, it's just to get to the battle, they could have added a bit of text before where he sees the player have the Trio Badge and honestly it wouldn't have made any difference.
And why does he keep battling you? He's your rival as well as a friend, he wants to test his strength against yours to test to see if both you and him have been keeping up on your training.
But N's final battle team does seem strange. I guess the designers didn't feel the Pokemon on Victory Road and Route 10 would make for a challenging and diverse team so they decided to give him more "suitable" Pokemon for a final challenge. I guess one can say that for Pokemon like Zoroark and the Fossil Pokemon being they have no natural environment it could be interpreted that N is providing them a place to live, but that excuse doesn't work for Vanilluxe and Klinklang. I guess it could also be possible those were the strongest Pokemon that were at the moment under N/Team Plasma's care after having been abused and/or abandoned by people.
Also, though that Zoroark isn't the Zorua in the flashback, it does seem to be one of N's most loyal Pokemon as it helps and guards N in BW2.
Not to mention he is using a legend, 3 pokemon without habitat in the game and 2 3stage pokemon based in objects while following the champion using fossils pattern. His team is diverse and interesting to be honest.
Klinklang and Vanilluxe have very high based stats (for no pseudo or legendary statut). That's why.
Hm, that does sound plausible. It also gives an explanation to why most of the OR/AS Mega Stones can't (yet) be found in Kalos despite most of the Pokemon that correspond to them can be found in Kalos, too. None of those happened to land in the region... yet. (naturally the Kalos... whatever it's going to be will include them plus possibly a few exclusive to itself)
I still like the idea of Mewtwo bending a couple Mega Stones to react to itself. Might be part of the whole, "this isn't even my true power!" thing. I don't know.
My personal theory is that both of the Mewtwonite stones are actually Mew Mega Stones. Mewtwo is just Mew with its DNA scrambled up. Safe to assume that since the stones don't react with Mew but do so with its clone, they have some connection to Mew... I just can't place my finger on what it is, however...
I think that it could be said that you could say that there have multiple timelines for a long time. For example, when you caught Ho-oh in Gold, while O caught my Sea-Titan in Silver, as well as most importantly my Bobcat in Crystal, but neither Lugia or Ho-oh, or at least at first, those be considered separate timelines. Black/White was just the first really hint at it, while in ORAS, it is explicitly stated that they do exist.
Then again, different timelines and reboots seems to be a thing with Japanese franchises. My other favorite Japanese franchise, Zoids, is rich in stories running through different periods in time, and in different or parallel timelines.
Well, yeah, Tomy hardly cares about building a strong in-game universe for Zoids, considering that they are mostly model kits.
No, I said that Zoids is rich in stories (though most of this had to be translated, since most of it wasn't released and translated outside Japan). Zoids is a franchise consisting of armed mechanical beasts. They are model kits based on many types of animals.
And even Pokemon is rich is it's own lore, with the Pokedex alone providing a lot of information, though the events aren't quite as in depth, I agree.
I would say the games provide plenty of lore outside of the Pokedex as well, though a lot of it is kept vague. If you talk to all the random NPCs you may be told some interesting stuff. Even talking to the trainers after you battle may get you some interesting info. Locations can also allude to there being a deep lore though whether or not you can access it is the problem.
I kind of feel the problem with Pokemon building a strong in-game universe is it either forces the developers to come up with REALLY good reasons why some previous thing is now suddenly different, like why Clefairy is suddenly Fairy type when it was Normal before or why Magnemite is part Steel when it was pure Electric before, or they're forced to not change anything. Give people a reason to use Beedrill? Would like to, but then it'd be something it didn't have before and the in-game universe won't allow that. It'd also hurt remakes, as then HG/SS and OR/AS would be in the same obnoxiously annoying boat as FR/LG in being very little more than just graphical updates of the original games, even denying what's possible up to that current generation. (like preventing Golbat from evolving)
Lazy cop-out? Sure, but I don't think Game Freak wants to paint themselves into a corner where they have heavily restricted creative freedom because they have to adhere to a strong in-game universe. And Pokemon has generally been about the story of YOU, (not you you, you as in the person popping the game into their Game Boy/Color/Advanced/DS/3DS/the next however many handheld consoles Nintendo puts out that Pokemon will be around for) and how you imagine your own adventure, meet new partners and friends, save the day and the world, and maybe even learn a bit about yourself. They can put in little tidbits and things to fuel that imagination, like how Bruno, Chuck, and Brawly all apparently know each other, but they don't really want to stifle it with too much.
Then again, I could easily be wrong.
Not really. Mewtwo is an imperfect clone of Mew. The latter's DNA was used to create the former, but has been recombined over and over so much (and possible other things done to it to get a 6'7" Pokemon that cares for little else besides battling) there's little genetic coding still left in the same spots, (enough to see a passing resemblance, like the head and long tail) so I have to feel like there's no connection between the Mewtwonite X/Y and Mew whatsoever. It'd be like trying to tie Garchompite to Flygon because the guy who uses Flygon gives you the Mega Stone for the other Ground/Dragon kicking around... maybe. Probably a poor example.
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If Mew is a song, Mewtwo is the remix. That's way different from Flygon (... let's say "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" from the 80's) being the same as Garchomp (let's go with "Friday").
I didn't select the above post to single out any particular user or argument, rather just to be clear that I was throwing my voice into this particular debate and this was the last relevant post.
That said, I personally believe that up until very recently (with the reveal of the multi-verse) GameFreak hasn't cared at all about establishing an in-game (in-series, really) universe at all. The reason being is that no serious effort had ever been put into such an endeavor. I say this because there are just too many properties associated with the Pokémon franchise that were all established within a relatively close timeframe to allow for that sort of cohesion; it's simple, really, the IP got too big too quickly and was capitalized on in kind. This capitalization of the IP lead to the creation of the Anime and Manga, which tell their own stories separate from those of each other and the games.
It's like what happened to The Beatles and why they were broke at the end of the band's career together (though they turned out okay). The point is that there are too many people managing different aspects of a business, one that has many components (games, manga, anime being the big three relevant to the argument). The result being a separated universe with no cohesive canon. What happens to the player-character =/= to what happens to Red =/= what happens to
Ash.
I believe they are trying to make up for this now with what many have said (correctly in my view) is a cop out. Like comic books, things just get messy when you go down the multiple timelines route (just look at X-Men; stay dead Jean, stay dead). It would have been much wiser (IMO) if GF had either not said anything with regards to Mega Evolution being present in Hoenn, or had simply taken the following position: "this an updated game with new elements that had yet to be developed at the time the originals were created, therefore the canon must be re-established. Consider the stories of OR/AS to be the official stories within the Pokéverse and the old ones find memories. The times they are-a-changing."
You can't build and manage an IP as big as Pokémon without alienating a few people so I feel that this is the correct stance to take. They're never going to get a strong, cohesive universe without rebooting all three properties anyway. Even if we stick strictly to the games we get inconsistencies due to version exclusives (as mentioned by JES) as well as player-choice. If they want the level of cohesion we want them to have then one of the properties needs to establish the official canon. The manga, IMO, is best suited for this as 1) it is the one Tajiri said most closely reflects his original vision and 2) it eliminates the problem of version exclusives (was it Yveltal or Xerneas that helped defeat Lysandre?) and player-choice; that is to say we all have the same experience.
The problem with either of what you think may have been wiser is that the games themselves already acknowledge the existence of the R/S/E Hoenn in a couple ways. The first is the reward for showing the Game Freak employee NPC a Pokemon that has traveled all the way from the original games, the Time-Travel Certificate IIRC. The other is Zinnia's line during the Delta Episode mentioning her people being aware of an alternate world, much like the in-game world of OR/AS, but where the Great War of Kalos 3000 years ago never happened; the Ultimate Weapon never fired or built. Where Mega Evolution is unknown. Clearly meant to refer to R/S/E Hoenn. Naturally, they could have chosen to not put those in, but this was also the perfect opportunity to grant a reward to players who've transferred a Pokemon from the original games to the remakes, (well, first really. Couldn't transfer from gen 2 to 3 at all) and they certainly wanted Zinnia to push the player to go to the Sky Pillar to summon Rayquaza. (and introduce what might become standard practice to help alleviate the burden of releasing the now very abundant event Pokemon. 15 legendary Pokemon including Deoxys, Hoopa, and Volcanion. That's more than one a month with just them alone!)
Meh, the whole "RSE Hoenn being in another timeline" thing still bothers me, but I think its because of how it was implemented rather it being a thing. The concept of alternate timelines isn't a new thing, Gen V I think handled it very well by having parallel stories and then have some vague mention that in another time and place the events could have unfolded a different yet similar way. In addition we have NPCs who make brief mention of a parallel dimension like the guy in Opelucid City who wanted to see a Blitzle from the other version or the people in White Forest/Black City saying they came from/want to go to the other version of that place. Pretty much it felt like while playing the game there's also another parallel story playing out in a parallel dimension and it was done in a way that made it feel their was some mysticism behind it.
But what they did in ORAS made me feel like I was reading a fanfiction. First off, the time-traveling reward I have no problem with. Actually I quite like it since its rewarding those players who been playing all thee years and been transferring their beloved Pokemon up through the generations with them. However that's something that's not really part of the game's story or lore, just a bonus for those who played the original RSE. Where it becomes fanfic-y is that it was never hinted at any point in the main game story that this was a parallel dimension to RSE Hoenn. Throughout play ORAS I felt like I was just playing an updated version of Hoenn. Retcons happen ALL the time in Pokemon, especially when new games come out. But then comes the Delta Episode where Zinnia just blurts out that RSE Hoenn exists in a parallel dimension and if we teleport the meteor it'll appear there and destroy it. What?! And honestly before she said that I was kind of with her. Before she said it it sounded like she was saying that if we teleport the meteor, even though we save ourselves, we could possibly doom another planet and its people. Now if she stopped right there it would have created an interesting dilemma. If we don't destroy the meteor here and now it could travel to another world and possibly doom it, meaning in the far future we may never come in contact with this alien world who probably have a whole planet of alien Pokemon. BUT THEN Zinnia says the world she's talking about is RSE Hoenn in an alternate dimension and I stopped caring.
Why? Well first off Zinnia how do you know this alternate Hoenn exists? Where's your proof? She says she knows it exists and that's the end of that. Second, if we accept there's an alternate Hoenn, who cares? I know, I sound like a heartless jerk, but in terms of future storylines, what does it matter that the Hoenn in the non-Mega Evolution/Kalos War/Infinite Energy timeline exist if we're never going back to that timeline? I'm saving a thing in an alternate which, whether it survives or not, doesn't really effect me. They're depending on the player's own nostalgia instead of the in-game character's thoughts and feelings to make us feel we shouldn't teleport the meteor away. Third, bringing up alternate dimensions is always a can of worms as if you're going to bring one parallel dimension you got to bring ALL of them in, you can't cherry pick the one you want to exist. For every decision there's new parallel universes that come into creation for every option. So guess what, even though if our story Zinnia stopped us from teleporting the meteor away, in another parallel ORAS she failed and we teleported the universe away. And in the end, what did it matter? Answer is nothing, because according to Zinnia it was teleported to another dimension thus anything it does in the alternate dimension won't effect us. Fourth and finally, that alternate Hoenn that Zinnia is worried about is the same timeline as the Mystery Dungeon series where in that game RAYQAUZA HAS NO PROBLEM DESTROYING A METEOR WITH A HYPER BEAM! Honestly it sounds like Mega Evolution was a bad thing for this timeline as it looked to have weakened the Pokemon species. Rayquaza now needs to Mega Evolve to destroy a meteor which previously it could destroy with a Hyper Beam and Kyogre & Groudon now need to Primal Devolve to cause the end of the world even though in the original games the just being awake was more then enough to do that.
And to top it all off Zinnia is treated like a Mary Sue character. She can do no wrong and is right about everything, no questions asked. Of course the writers must have realized this so slapped on some baggage onto her with the whole Aster thing and being unworthy of Mega Evolving Rayquaza. Now had Zinnia acted like she was being urgent and been straight forward about things I probably wouldn't feel spite toward her. Like if she just told the player and Steven straight-up that teleporting the meteor would destroy an alternate timeline Hoenn and then said she has an alternate solution that would be fine. But NOPE. Instead she mocks and taunts everyone, destroys what they think is their one and only hope to destroy the meteor, and THEN says she has an alternate solution (after giving everyone no choice). Speaking of Steven, I have no idea why Zinnia treats him with such disrespect. HE'S THE LEAGUE CHAMPION! He's someone you want on your side! But nope, how DARE he tries to save the whole planet by teleporting the meteor away not realizing it'll go to an alternate Hoenn! He should be treated like a fool and not be told how they could save both Hoenns until the very last moment!... B!#$%, we don't have time for that! A meteor is coming to destroy EVERYTHING we know, so the sooner you could have told us your solution the more likely we would have listened and done it without you giving us no choice. And it's not like you wouldn't have been able to talk to Steven, you're not only a Draconian but the Lorekeeper of the Draconains! Being the Draconians have a close relationship with the Sootapolitans you could have told Wallace who's known to be a good friend of Steven and he could have vouched for you. But no, instead let's do things that'll put tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives at risk. Remember it was Zinnia who told Archie/Maxie about how to awaken Groudon/Kyogre who would have ended the world if we didn't stop it. Actually, now thinking about it, BOTH of Zinnia's plans to summon Rayquaza would have ended the world if things didn't go right which the wouldn't if it wasn't for the player who she DIDN'T plan for. Rayquaza was too weak to stop Primal Kyogre/Groudon and Mega Evolve, so if it wasn't for the player and some luck the world would have ended on numerous occasions because of Zinnia! And throughout the whole thing she acted like a smug child. What a horrible character.
^ ...I'm really, well and truly, beginning to suspect that most people's problem with the Pokemon multiverse thing isn't that Game Freak basically flat-out said it's there, but more with our little Draconid princess not doing a great job pointing it out and making the player feel alright with it. I'd say more about it, but I think Pikachu315111 pretty much said all there really is to say.
Although we'd do well to remember that events that happen in nearly any of the side games aside from maybe Colosseum/XD doesn't tie into the main series of games. Mystery Dungeon is quite far out from the main series, considering there are no humans native to the world PMD takes place in - just Pokemon. Also, Groudon/Kyogre don't undergo Primal Reversion until you're so far deep in the Cave of Origin the DexNav Plus is inoperable, so they're still causing havoc, just... um... their Primal forms would make it far worse, far faster? I don't know, I think it was more Groudon/Kyogre desiring the peak of their strength back, kind of like with the originals but now with an obvious power up. I mean, the original games never gave a great explanation as to why they left Seafloor Cavern for Cave of Origin...
Although we'd do well to remember that events that happen in nearly any of the side games aside from maybe Colosseum/XD doesn't tie into the main series of games. Mystery Dungeon is quite far out from the main series, considering there are no humans native to the world PMD takes place in - just Pokemon. Also, Groudon/Kyogre don't undergo Primal Reversion until you're so far deep in the Cave of Origin the DexNav Plus is inoperable, so they're still causing havoc, just... um... their Primal forms would make it far worse, far faster? I don't know, I think it was more Groudon/Kyogre desiring the peak of their strength back, kind of like with the originals but now with an obvious power up. I mean, the original games never gave a great explanation as to why they left Seafloor Cavern for Cave of Origin...
As I said, in Gen V they did a great job at hinting to other dimensions (other game versions) but did so subtlety through the story and vaguely, adding a layer of mysticism behind it. But in ORAS, Zinnia says it. Takes the mysticism out of it, she might as well said "you'll teleport the meteor to the Hoenn of Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald version"... actually, those 3 are different Hoenns so Zinnia which one of these Hoenns are you talking about? See what I mean about having to bring in all the alternate dimensions?
And true, I can't really point to Rayquaza destroying the meteor in Mystery Dungeon as proof it's strong enough to do that in the main game (though where is Arceus in all this? Say what you want about Rayquaza being limited to the Pokemon World's stratosphere, I'm sure Arceus can fly in space and has enough power to destroy a meteor that's about to destroy the planet where its Pokemon children are). As for Kyogre/Groudon, though they didn't Primal Devolve until you battled them they still had their Orbs which I imagine was empowering them. If I remember correctly they said the weather change was more severe then they thought, so it could be that had they not have their Orb then everything would have gone as Team Aqua/Magma planned. In the original games they gave Kyogre/Groudon the wrong orb which angered them, so I think if they ditched the whole Orb thing they would have been alright (well, at least until the player stopped them).