Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

[Flamedood]

Raichu switching into a volt switch has 2 flaws. 1 with lightning rod, raichu is incapable of having surf, which is a big reason to compare it too lizard. 2 everything with volt switch bar rotom-fan and defensive lanturn have some way of ohkoing raichu with a coverage move.



Steelix would be a terrible switchin to virizion, focus blast does a number and so does close combat, yet u barely damage with a 60 BP heavy slam.

Heliolisk's impact on the meta = people run spdef vileplume instead of physical. Why? Because gatr has a hard time sweeping anyway with a fatass steelix in the way. And gourgeist super becoming more common, which isnt bad because gourgeist isnt useless otherwise.
Literally the worst impact that heliolisk has done is make prople consider cradily a spot on thier team.

Steelix's impact on the meta, more typhlosions, more hariyamas to tank hits from typhlosion, psychic types and dark types falling into obscurity. People needing to run TWO steelix checks because 1 hardly is ever enough (God bless your soul if they have healing wish mespy and steelix on the same team). Normal types becoming obselete. The inability to run togetic to counter the hundreds of yamas on the ladder. Xatu is all over the ladder to protect steelix from being worn down from spikes. This meta would make a complete overhaul without this thing.

was not suggesting switching Steelix on Virizion, but switching Virizion into a specs heliosk predicting a surf for a steelix

Ie Heliosk player has to predict whether the opponent will switch in Steelix or Virizion to check his Specs Heli. If he chooses volt switch or hyper voice steelix gets a free switch and if he predicts Surf for steelix, Virizion gets a free switch. This is why specs Heli isn't bad, but not as good as life orb

Edit: and another reason why I don't think Heli is broken- choice specs is much easier to handle and life orb wears it down to easily. And as for cleaning up late game with specs, yes it's good but certainly doesn't make it ban worthy. Any fast decent special attacker can do the same late game, Jynx, Mismagius, Typhlosion, Pyroar etc

But yeah get rid of Steelix. Fuck that guy

 

[dodmen]

was not suggesting switching Steelix on Virizion, but switching Virizion into a specs heliosk predicting a surf for a steelix

Ie Heliosk player has to predict whether the opponent will switch in Steelix or Virizion to check his Specs Heli. If he chooses volt switch or hyper voice steelix gets a free switch and if he predicts Surf for steelix, Virizion gets a free switch. This is why specs Heli isn't bad, but not as good as life orb

I don't understand the argument here. The Heliolisk player has to predict your switch? Well you also have to predict the Heliolisk's move. It goes both ways; simply saying "they have to pick the right move" isn't an argument at all because the player trying to switch into it has to make equally as many predictions.

And while Heliolisk is worn down quite a bit by Life Orb+hazards, it's doing a lot more damage to the opposing team while gaining momentum incredibly easily. As far as I can tell (although disclaimer: I'm relatively new to this tier) no other Pokemon in NU can get momentum while doing absurd amounts of damage as easily as Heliolisk can, and the ones that come close have noticeable flaws, such as Scyther's weakness to Stealth Rock. It honestly reminds me of Magnezone way back when in UU, except it trades bulk for superb coverage and speed. The momentum factor is so important because normally you would switch in your check/counter and now you have an advantage to make a move/heal up/double/whatever. But with Heliolisk, you switch in your check and now it's your opponent who is the one with the advantage, and your answer to Heliolisk lost a considerable chunk of HP without having a chance to retaliate or heal itself. And without very niche and stupid mons, you can't safely block its Volt Switch because of the other moves it can run, which, in addition to its typing and ability, is what differentiates it from other users of Volt Switch. This is, in my opinion, what makes Heliolisk ban-worthy.

 

[eden]

Pokemon is just a game of 50/50s. A good player forces 50/50s. Heliosk makes 50/50s losing propostions because you can't stop its pivoting with anything. It has all the moves to remove its checks and counters. There is literally no reason not to run it. It serves as a Feraligatr check and a fast Pivot to soften up the opposing team. MLix is one of the only things keeping it check because it can be EV'd to survive Hyper Voice + Surf, much like Ferrothorn can be EV'd to survive Hyper Voice+Focus Blast in OU. But nonetheless its a very shaky counter.It's basically the NU version of Genesect in that it comes in does a load of damage, and goes out.

Coming to Mega Steelix itself. It is the best Normal/Flying resist in NU right now, and much like Heliosk there is no reason NOT to use it. Its not broken in and of itself but is centralizing,I'm kind of on the fence about this one to be honest. Mega Steelix is easily kept in check in NU to be honest, but at the same time it is very centralizing.

 

[Swagodile]

Problem with Mega Steelix is that while it's checkable, it simulatenously walls and 2HKOs half the tier.

There's zero opportunity cost in using it.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Problem with Mega Steelix is that while it's checkable, it simulatenously walls and 2HKOs half the tier.

There's zero opportunity cost in using it.

Every mega has the opportunity cost of not being able to use any other megas, they're like the textbook definition of the term. Not being able to use mega camerupt or mega audino is definitely not "zero opportunity cost", it's not a buzzword for "overpowered".

 

[Kurona]

Snow Warning Aurorus is getting released next month.
Yay a hail setter that isn't snover?

Every mega has the opportunity cost of not being able to use any other megas, they're like the textbook definition of the term. Not being able to use mega camerupt or mega audino is definitely not "zero opportunity cost", it's not a buzzword for "overpowered".

Eh, I'd argue there is no opportunity cost because each of the three Megas in NU is drastically different. I don't think any team that has the intention of using Mega Steelix would particularly want to use Camel or Audino, and even then it seems much more splashable than them.

 

[About 7 Kidz]

Aurorus loses a lot of power if he choses his snow warning ability..

 

[Talpr0ne]

Factoring in Hail damage Blizzard is actually a little bit more powerful than Refridgerate Hyper Voice. I'd say that Refrigerate and Snow Warning are pretty similar and none of them is a straight buff over the other, unlike, say, Sheer Force Gatr or Contrary Serperior. It will not shake the meta, but it isn't bad at all.

Pros and cons of Refrigerate
+Hyper Voice can pierce Substitutes
+Not dependant on weather for accuracy
+Hail won't damage your teammates
-Blocked by Soundproof(lol)

Pros and cons of Snow Warning
+Indirectly more powerful because of hail damage on foes
+Can remove opposing weather
+Blizzard can freeze
-Hail will damage your teammates
-Hail will eventually fade out, leaving you with an unreliable stab if you are still out

 

[Pokedots]

Snow Warning will likely be a very good option if only to screw over weather teams. I honestly could see a Scarf set be viable to basically 6-0 them as it OHKOes every common Swift Swimmer with Freezy Dry except for Poliwrarth (and Beartic!!!!!) and obviously OHKOes all Chlorophyll users with Blizzard. But Specs will probably easily be it's best and most common set, and getting rid of their weather should usually be good enough

I'm also ready to spam Rotom-F hail $_$

Edit at HJAD: By "very good option" I meant a very good option for Aurorus over Refrigerate, not as a whole, as it's obviously still not the greatest. Screwing weather over is a very good niche though :)

 

[HJAD]

Snow Warning will likely be a very good option if only to screw over weather teams. I honestly could see a Scarf set be viable to basically 6-0 them as it OHKOes every common Swift Swimmer with Freezy Dry except for Poliwrarth (and Beartic!!!!!) and obviously OHKOes all Chlorophyll users with Blizzard. But Specs will probably easily be it's best and most common set, and getting rid of their weather should usually be good enough

I'm also ready to spam Rotom-F hail $_$

As far as I'm concerned, being the prolific weather player that I am, this will definitely have to be taken into consideration with a scarf set with freeze dry tearing apart not only rain, but sun also. However, I don't see this becoming TOO big a deal for 2 main reasons:
a.) Most weather teams consist of 2 setters, 3 sweepers and a gluemon. At worst what could happen is that the gluemon is forced to be changed, and honestly, one Mon isn't going to harm sun/rain's capability if the use decides to change that
b.)Its still a fucking Aurorus. Not a great Mon with possibly the shiteist defensive typing in the entire game, it won't catch on IMHO and I can see it getting the exact same usage its getting now from when snow warning gets released.

Overall, yeah it will be fun to fuckle about rain teams and the sort but, against anything else, its still just an aurorus, and that's it really.
Just though the devils advocate on weather had to put his input on this really :/

Edit: if you really want to kill rain; get fucking mega abomasnow here, something that will get relatively high usage and a Mon that's a total bitch to rain all in one.

 

[Expulso]

All right, now that I've finished laddering, I'd like to share my views about each of the suspects.

Heliolisk: Ban
Simply put, Heliolisk is incredibly difficult to switch into; the only things I've seen that are not 2HKOd are Musharna, Gourgeist-XL, Hariyama, and Cradily. The only one of those that fits on an offensive playstyle is Hariyama, which is easily pressured by common teammates such as Typhlosion, has no reliable recovery, and takes about 30% from one of Heliolisk's attacks. Furthermore, all of its checks and counters are easily pressured by Volt Switch, letting a teammate, such as Typhlosion or Sneasel, force them out. This thing has centralized the metagame to a point where 2 or 3 of its supposed "checks" are on every team, and even then, it can still break down defensive cores with Volt Switch and its incredible movepool. Really, there's no reason for this to stay NU. Ban.

Mega Steelix: Ban
For me, this was a far more difficult decision, but I still believe that this Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. It is ridiculously centralizing, and a universal catch-all answer to myriad Pokemon, such as Scyther, Sneasel (Low Kick 3HKOs tho), Swellow, Archeops, and more. Its incredible bulk on both sides makes it very difficult to break the infamous Curse set, and even without boosting, it's very hard to switch into its powerful STAB attacks. Water types such as Mantine, Pelipper, and Prinplup, considered very solid answers, are still dealt with to an extent; Mantine and Pelipper are OHKOd by Thunder Fang after SR and worn down by Toxic, while Prinplup is 3HKOd by Earthquake after one SR switch-in. Really, this thing is too bulky, too strong, and has too few reliable switch-ins for it to be a healthy presence in the NU metagame; the few switch-ins it has are worn down by Toxic or phased out to take more SR damage with Roar, and the metagame has become centralized around the few things, Typhlosion and Mega Camerupt prominent among them, that can actually OHKO this beast. Ban.

Feel free to comment if you disagree with anything I said, these are definitely not my final opinions at this point :)

 

[blinkie]

Ok so done getting reqs and got a feel for the meta...time to post my thoughts

Mega Steelix: BAN
Ok obviously broken, walls like every physical attacker without a SE move and can even take hits from stuff like CB Sawk. Also surprisingly hard to wear down(yup I used stall) as it 4x resists SR and is immune to Toxic. Basically with some Wish support you can mindlessly go: Oh Archeops / Scyther / whatever time to go to Mega Steelix. This forced me to often go for risky double switches to force it out most of the time. Not to mention Heavy Slam and EQ hit surprisingly hard, while when I tried to stop if with burn some even had Curse + Rest...
As most others have stated people use stuff like Surf Heliolisk and Mega Camel to break it down, so definitely overcentralizing and not to mention completely broken as well. IMO probably most splashable mon in NU atm.

Heliolisk: Ban
So this one I was more undecided about. It has really good coverage, with Grass Knot for Seismitoad, Surf for Steelix, Focus Blast for Cradily, even Dark Pulse for Gourgeist. However though it is easily worn down with LO + hazards, while also murdered by anything faster including priority. At first I thought no ban, but after I started laddering even in the hands of bad players I had problems as it could easily Volt Switch out to stuff like Typhlosion for easy momentum + dead stuff. The choice sets are not threatening IMO, as they are revealed easily and then can be played around, but I saw Heliolisk + Typhlosion everywhere and it was hard to keep in check. I also had to keep SR + tspikes up at all costs and usually the only way I could do this was against bad players who automatically switched Xatu into everything. I see Heliolisk kind of becoming like Greninja in OU, with its great coverage and ability to pick and choose checks. I had to make yolo swagplays like leaving Seismitoad in vs a Heliolisk with Grass knot to take it out...So yeah ban as well.

edit: ok yeah as Punchshroom said download-less gene would probs be a better comparison

 

[skies]

Alright, after laddering for awhile and using these two Pokemon a lot, I've come to my conclusions.

Mega Steelix: I went in to this laddering with the mindset that Mega Steelix was not broken, just so I could have a grasp of how both sides feel Mega Steelix is in NU, and I have to say... Holy crap. In the back of my mind, I knew it was broken, but I was trying to keep an open mind; I was entirely right when I thought it was broken. The ability to wall half of the metagame all by itself and the ability to KO or 2HKO nearly everything but specific counters is just crazy. I never had an issue using it, not once, unless it was just me making a terrible play. It was incredibly easy to pick up and just have a clear advantage against the opponent. Nearly half of the battles I've had have included Mega Steelix on both sides, and it's very clear why. Mega Steelix has a very good stat spread, high powered moves, and the ability to be slapped on to just about everything. I don't really think I've seen a good anti-ban argument for Mega Steelix, or even anyone arguing against its brokenness lol, so I'll be voting ban.

Heliolisk: Alright, Heliolisk I really didn't know if I was going to vote ban or no ban. On one side you have its insane Speed and great power, excellent movepool, and wonderful momentum abiities, but on the other you have mediocre bulk, reliance on Volt Switch, and a lot of checks / counters. However, I can completely say that its cons are far overshadowed by its wonderful perks. The ability to switch out of its counters while wearing them down in the process is just too hard to handle. You could say that Hariyama counters it, but then you have the fact that Heliolisk wears it down with Volt Switch and hazards every time it tries to stomach Heliolisk's hits. Heliolisk works excellently alongside Mega Steelix as well, and the two together make a powerful duo. Heliolisk's Hyper Voice is a godsend that can clean up weakened teams late game as well. The ability to use Surf to smack Ground-types and even to have various coverage moves that hit usual checks are just too much for the tier in my opinion. I'll be voting to ban this one as well.

 

[Punchshroom]

I've heard several people compare Heliolisk to Greninja. After extensive playing, I've come to the verdict that a more accurate comparison to Heliolisk would be a Download-less Genesect (complete with power, coverage, and ofc masterful pivoting, plus great natural speed), which, let's be honest, still doesn't sound any more pleasant to play against.

 

[Nani Man]

Just finished laddering and my opinions on the two suspected pokemon are finalized.

Let's begin with Heliolisk. Firstly, when using this pokemon, I really thought that it would be fine as a lot of checks exist, however, that is no where near enough to stop or control it. I literally found no checks that can be a check to Heliolisk more than once (Torterra can be, but being forced to run that is already a sign of imbalances). Nothing likes to switch into a LO Hyper Voice followed by a Surf/Grass Knot/Thunderbolt as they are all 2HKO'd. What makes this pokemon even more troublesome is the fact that it has FIVE other teammates helping to wear down your checks in the back, plus having Volt Switch to maintain momentum and really wear you down faster. Personally, I had to rely on speed ties with my own Heliolisk to beat it. Some people can argue that you can predict Heliolisk, but that is not good enough because Heliolisk hits hard as I said above, and it can switch to whatever it wants, eventually catching your check and weakening it enough for the KO. This pokemon is definitely the most broken thing in the tier as of this moment. 100% I will be voting ban.

Now, in regards to Steelixite. I came in here thinking it was fine, and I still think it's not what people make it out to be, though it is borderline broken. From my experiences, it can be worn down pretty decently and does have numerous checks that can handle it. However, some people can run Gyro Ball sets to do heavy damage to offensive threats attacking Mega Steelix. Although, sending in walls that have type/movepool advantage over steelix usually suffices. With that said, Mega Steelix is granted a nice attack boost and has the bonus of offensive AND defensive presences which really is too much for a large portion of the meta. Whilst you can't Heavy Slam/Gyro Ball/EQ spam to victory, it can take out offensive threats easily and still have enough to take out another due to its 230 base def. Overall, I think due to the fact that Mega Steelix has both those offensive and defensive presences, it is why it is borderline broken and should be banned as well. I will also be voting ban.

 

[Aberforth]

I'm very new to the NU tier, and most of my thoughts are influenced by Teddeh, who helped me get into the tier. Be that as it may, after obtaining reqs, I have come to my own conclusions on the two mons that are being suspected.

Heliolisk: When I started trying to get reqs, this was the one I was more sure should be banned, however after getting reqs, I never found it all that difficult to handle. Yes, losing momentum was annoying, however I did have ways of dealing with that and regaining the momentum. Also, running steelix/vileplume/harriyama as my core (I only had one team), I could often handle it, and it is frail enough to die to any hit, essentially. I feel like NU has the tools to keep it in check, especially if mega-steelix were to be banned. Leaning towards no ban right now.

Steelix: I found this more banworthy the more I played. I'm still largely undecided on it, but from a clear no-ban position, I am now leaning slightly towards ban just because of how rediculous this thing is. With 0 defense investment, it nearly reaches 500 defense, and can run offensive sets to make it a potent wallbreaker as well as physical wall, as well as SPDef to allow it to tank all sorts of hits from all sorts of mons, walling half of the tier, and making a lot of things otherwise unusable.

I could easily be swayed in either direction on either mon, however those are my thoughts at the moment.

 

[candyflip]

Finished getting requirements so I figured I'd make a quick post about my thoughts.

Mega-steelix should be banned because while it not only can fit well on practically any team, it at the very least checks the majority of physical attackers and some special attackers as well. The reward for using steelix is too great to not have any real drawbacks. Mega steelix is over the line because it is too strong both offensively and defensively to the point where I am almost forced to run magnet rise probopass to beat it :[

Helio should also be banned. Using helio gives the user such an immediate advantage because its crazy movepool and speed, and its decent sp. attack can be boosted by choice specs or life orb even further (I know LO doesn't affect sp atk but you know what I mean). Seriously, all you have to do to win with helio is weaken its checks/counters by spamming hyper voice and volt switch, and then use your coverage moves of choice to beat the other team. All it takes to lose is sacrifice one wrong mon or predict the wrong set on helio. Heliolisk gives the user way too much easy momentum and should be banned.

I realize this echos what pretty much everyone else has said, but as of now I would vote to ban both.

 

[El Coqui]

when is the closing for the votes? i still have another 500 coil to go so I want to know to actually give me input

 

[Bowtie Addo]

The Alt Identification thread should be open for a couple more days, voting starts after that.

 

[El Coqui]

The Alt Identification thread should be open for a couple more days, voting starts after that.

Much thanks

 

[Mr.378]

I've been playing and watching this tier for a while now and, while I sadly won't be able to get reqs because of time constraints, I still feel as if I know enough about the tier to know where I stand on the two of them.

Mega Steelix, while at first seemed underwhelming to me, became a lot better the more I thought about it and observed the overall meta. It can wall a great amount of the tier while having a decent offensive pressure. It has a good typing to support its massive defenses and good attack. It is very splashable and almost any team can use it. It may be a mega, which in other tiers would be a great determent and place an opportunity cost, in Nu this matters a lot less because there are only two other megas to use significantly reducing the cost of using it. The only other flaw I can think of in using it is its limited recovery, but even then a restalk set on it is actually pretty good. It isn't even that big a stop to momentum because of its decent offenses and good movepool. Because of how easy and reliable it is Mega-Steelix is too good for Nu, meaning banning it would be the best choice.

Heliolisk is different from Mega-Steelix in that I always figured that NU wasn't ready for it. It is just too good of an offenise pivot for most things to handle. The Normal/Electric coverage, combined with surf, hits a great amount for good damage. The things that it can't hit as hard with its coverage it can simply volt switch out of and deal some damage while maintaining momentum. While there is a decent list of pokemon who can do that Keliolisk is particularly good at it for two reasons. The first is because it has great 109/109 Spa/Spe which lets it hit hard while out speeding most common opponents. The second reason is that it has more switch in opportunities then most attackers of its kind. The immunity to water that dry skin grants is great because of all of the free switch ins it lets Heliolisk get that it wouldn't normally get. Switch ins that it normally would not be able to get against opponents who are usually weak to its stab and its most commonly used move. Because of these reasons I feel as if Heliolisk is too good for the current metagame and that banning it would improve it.

These two suspects both should go as it would make Nu a better tier. The current metagame in Nu is alright but stagnant and getting rid of these two would greatly help in clearing that.

 

[boston5476]

REQS

http://imgur.com/qbvPwDL

Confirming as myself boston5476

 

[Lord Alphose]

REQS

http://imgur.com/qbvPwDL

Confirming as myself boston5476

try the alt identification thread

edit: but keep the avatar. you'll go far in NU.

 

[CanadianWifier]

but keep the avatar. you'll go far in NU.

Rule 1 is you have to have a Taylor Swift avatar.
Rule 2 is that you have to be Canadian. Judging by the name, they sadly only meet one of the criteria :(

 

[Cherub Agent]

i'll be voting ban on heliolisk, for reasons others have said

im still fairly undecided on mega steelix. considering this, i'll be voting not to ban it, because there's no way im voting to ban something if im not 100% sure its broken. i understand that it's really splashable and a great pokemon, but to me that doesn't make it ban worthy. i kinda see it similarly to landorus-t in ou in this sense. it's weak to four very common types, will almost always have to eat them up since it's slow a balls, and there are TONS of pokemon in nu that can deal with it. if i'm banning something then it has to easily sweep, wall or support entire teams with little effort. mega steelix does none of this. it's a jack of all trades kind of mon, it's great to have on a team for sure, but you can get by fine without it too. while laddering i saw plenty of teams without mega steelix, which wasn't quite what i was expecting, as everyone had hyped it up to be akin to primal groudon in ubers, which definetly isn't the case. i played a tad of nu before the drops occurred, and id probably have banned it then, but all of them deal with steelix in some way or another, but it's more than that, i feel as though the metagame has adapted to be at a point where it's no longer dominated by mega steelix's presence.

not that it'll really play a big role or anything, considering the amount of people who want to ban it, but eh, i wont be one of them. just going through the ranks a bit:

mega camerupt: beats it 1o1 if not mega evolved yet thanks to the speed boost, and physically defensive beats it too
heliolisk: surf smacks it but doesnt ko, cripples it beyond use though
typhlosion: wins 1o1

archeops: yeah loses, unless its mixed or sash endeavour, which can lure it out and dispose of it for a teammate
hariyama: wins 1o1
lilligant: can put it to sleep, strip it of a lot of health
mesprit: yeah this loses
uxie: often loses, but CM grass knot wins
virizion: close combat 2HKOs, or OHKOs at +2

mega audino: uh the lure sets can smack it with +1 fire blast, but otherwise loses
garbodor: loses
jynx: can put it to sleep, otherwise loses
kangaskhan: lol yeah, easily loses
malamar: can beat it 1o1, but cant switch in
mismagius: wisp hex is cruel, but heavy slam hurts badly
rhydon: double dance is in a good position, tank loses im p sure
samurott: ouch poor steelix
scyther: loses hard
seismitoad: easily beats it
xatu: rock helmet and heat wave make life hard, but can be lured out by stone edge

cryogonal: loses hard, but offensive can kinda hurt it
exeggutor: put it to sleep, can recover off damage, or just ohko with specs leaf storm. heavy slam hurts though
feraligatr: SD wins, DD it's iffier, you cant really set up on EQ
gurdurr: cant really be broken through, esp if bulk up
liepard: steelix is a hard counter
ludicolo: can easily come in and ohko
musharna: the wonky barrier+cm set should win, but this one is in steelix's favour
ninetales: neither can really come in on the other. tales has the upper hand though
sawk: if locked into anything other than cc, steelix wins, otherwise ouch. doesnt ohko, but cripples beyond repair
sneasel: band can lure it in with low kick, but otherwise loses
weezing: pretty good counter

ok i just wanted to do the top ranks (obv this analysis has little meaning in reality, due to the number of variables, ie who's switching in on who, previous damage etc, im just kinda getting my thoughts down), but there are actually a lot more pokemon in the b ranks and below that beat it (bulky waters, stuff like tangela, wisp hex rotom, etc). to me what makes steelix not broken is its low speed. very, very few pokemon are outsped by it, and having weaknesses to super common moves in close combat, earthquake, earth power, scald, hydro pump, waterfall, fire blast, flamethrower, eruption etc. make its survivability not as great as it's stats might make it appear.

again, this is just my PoV. i can totally get behind the "ban" argument, and as i said, im still not 100% sure myself. a metagame without it might be more fun, i dont know, but it lacks that "oomph" factor that made me ban suspects in the past. great pokemon, but probably not broken imo. then again, if the metagame will become more variable and "fun", that's a good grounds for banning it too... pretty subjective i guess