GSC In-Game Tier List

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Alright, I have finally managed to beat the Elite Four in Crystal (sorry for the delay, University life caught up with me). I will now state my opinions on the Pokemon I have used.

Cyndaquil: A rank
Has good match-ups against most early-game trainers (notably Sprout Tower and the Azalea Gym) while having enough power to win against neutral match-ups such as Violet Gym and the Rockets. The only unimpressive phase it has is mid-game where having Ember as your only STAB move until Lv 31, by which point you would have defeated Pryce (this also means it has a bad match-up against Jasmine since Ember can't OHKO Steelix) . It also can't contribute much against Clair. However, it manages to defeat Will (if taught Thunder Punch) and Koga single-handedly while also providing an answer to Lance's Gyarados and Charizard.

Slowpoke: C rank
Perhaps I'm missing something but a freshly caught Slowpoke from Azalea would be very underlevelled and would not be able to contribute against the Rival and Azalea Gym. It also really wants the Headbutt TM as having Tackle as your only attack until LV15 really sucks. While you will have Confusion and early Surf by Ecruteak, Slowpoke's low Speed means it is going to take damage before using Confusion / Surf against the Ghosts. These attacks also rarely OHKO since it is coming from such a low base SpA stat. Due to this, it can't hope to take on the Blackthorn Gym even if you use the Icy Wind TM as you lose to the Dragonaires (who 2HKO you while you can't OHKO back and is outsped due to your low Speed stat even after Icy Wind's Speed drop). However, it is able to easily defeat Bruno and is bulky enough to beat some of Lance's Pokemon (it can beat most mons 1 on 1 except Gyarados but it can't hope to sweep due to its low Speed.)

Golbat : A rank
One of the most consistent performers of the team. Grab one of them from after Morty with a Friend Ball and give it the Return TM. Also, by using the Haircut brothers, it will increase in happiness soon enough. It may be underlevelled at first but it can level up quickly by fighting against the Mahogany Rockets and Wild Pokemon of the Bug Catching Contest. You should have a Crobat around LV 15 to 18. While you won't have STAB in time for Chuck, Return allows Crobat to wreck everything in the Gym and you gain STAB Fly soon afterwards. Crobat is also able to take on Pryce's Seel and Dewgong 1 on 1 due to the sheer power of its attacks (not both though since you can't OHKO and Aurora Beam 2HKOes ). Crobat is also able to sweep Koga, defeat Karen's Gengar and provide an answer to Bruno's Fighting types. If the situation requires it, it can finish off weakened Dragonite or Charizard due to its high Speed.

Sandshrew : C rank
Sandshrew suffers from the same problems as Slowpoke, it has low Speed and attack stats. It is also completely TM dependent since its natural movepool sucks). It will almost certainly be underlevelled for Azalea Gym although it can take on Whitney's Miltank using the Defense Curl + Rollout combo (the Rollout TM is obtained near the National Park. You also gain the Dig TM around this time). While STAB Dig can OHKO the Gastly's in Ecruteak Gym, you can't sweep due to your low Speed and you also can't OHKO Haunter with your low Attack stat while it 2HKO back. However, Sandshrew can completely destroy Rockets and Tentacools to level up quickly. Sandslash can take on Chuck's Primeape and sweep Jasmine although it can't contribute against Pryce. It can take on Claire's Dragonaires but loses completely to Kingdra. Against the Elite 4, Sandslash wipes the floor with Koga and Karen with its Ground + Rock coverage. It can also be an answer to Lance's Aerodactyl and Charizard.

Ledyba : E rank
This thing is complete garbage. It has an awful movepool and even more awful stats that you need to give it TM support to make sure it suck less. If you don't have the Headbutt TM (thank God it is sold for 2000 dollars instead of being unique, this TM is a lifesaver to many Pokemon), have fun training this thing to Level 18 where it evolves to Ledian. While Ledian has great Special Defense and has access to Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, it's awful attacking stats mean it is not going to KO opponents even if they're Super Effective moves. The only Gyms where it can contribute is Chuck (if taught Thunder Punch) and Claire (if taught Ice Punch). Note that Ledian can only 2-3HKO Dragonaire with Ice Punch and is 3HKO-ed in return. Furthermore, it is complete deadweight in all other Gym Battles. You can use it as an answer to Gyarados with Thunder Punch (very shaky since Thunder Punch 2HKOes while Hyper Beam has a high chance to OHKO) or Dragonite (you 2-3HKO while got 2HKOed in return). In short, Ledian is a mon that requires a lot of support and provides very little, if at all in return.

Bellsprout : D rank
GSC is very harsh on Grass types and Bellsprout is no exception. It as an awful natural movepool and bad match-ups against most Gyms. Having Vine Whip as your only STAB move (don't even mention Acid) until the Sludge Bomb TM really sucks. Also, in order to learn Razor Leaf, you need to have it unevolved until LV 37 or raise a Weepingbel until LV 42, by which point you are in Victory Road or are challenging the Elite Four already. Furthermore, since it is a Stone Evolution, you need luck so that Gina will call you and give you a Leaf Stone (yes, you can mess with Daylight Saving Time but you still rely heavily on luck for her to call you and give you the stone). It's only good Gym performances come against Chuck and Pryce (shaky since you won't have Razor Leaf and Vine Whip only 2HKOes). Heck, you even lose to Dragonaires and Kingdra unless you get lucky with Sleep Powder and teach it Sludge Bomb. (Even then, Kingdra OHKOes with Hyper Beam). It also has a poor match-up against the Elite 4 except against Will's Slowbro and Bruno.

To answer Colonel M's question, the Togepi Egg hatches around Goldenrod while the Odd Egg hatches around Olivine. I previously used an Elekid from the Odd Egg too.

Elekid : C rank
Hatching in Olivine City at LV 5 means it requires babying for quite some time. Elekid has a good movepool for a GSC Pokemon as it can have Ice Punch by TM and Thunder Punch at LV9. Although you can beat up Swimmers and Tentacools on the way, Elekid will find itself underlevelled against Chuck and Jasmine while also losing to Pryce (low stats as Elekid means its losing to Dewgong and Piloswine). As an Electabuzz, it is also able to naturally learn Thunderbolt (LV 41) around Victory Road and Fire Punch from TM. It completely sweeps Claire (with Ice Punch), Will (Thunderbolt), Koga (Fire Punch) and Lance (Ice Punch). While these feats are impressive, Odd Egg's randomness and Elekid's unimpressive phase downgrades it to C rank.

Jynx : B rank
A lategame addition to the team, Jynx performs very well against the Blackthorn Gym since it comes with Lovely Kiss and gains Ice Punch soon after capture. It also performs well against Will (Shadow Ball) and Lance's Dragonites. If it is the Odd Egg Smoochum, it doesn't have Lovely Kiss but has STAB Confusion and can gain Psychic at LV 37 (although this will be very late in the game, it gives Jynx a stronger STAB move and allows it to destroy Koga and Bruno)
 
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atsync

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Slowpoke: C rank
Perhaps I'm missing something but a freshly caught Slowpoke from Azalea would be very underlevelled and would not be able to contribute against the Rival and Azalea Gym. It also really wants the Headbutt TM as having Tackle as your only attack until LV15 really sucks. While you will have Confusion and early Surf by Ecruteak, Slowpoke's low Speed means it is going to take damage before using Confusion / Surf against the Ghosts. These attacks also rarely OHKO since it is coming from such a low base SpA stat. Due to this, it can't hope to take on the Blackthorn Gym even if you use the Icy Wind TM as you lose to the Dragonaires (who 2HKO you while you can't OHKO back and is outsped due to your low Speed stat even after Icy Wind's Speed drop). However, it is able to easily defeat Bruno and is bulky enough to beat some of Lance's Pokemon (it can beat most mons 1 on 1 except Gyarados but it can't hope to sweep due to its low Speed.)
Yeah with Slowpoke you're really better off waiting until you can use Strength and then backtracking to Slowpoke Well and heading into the lower parts of it. You can catch level 20-25 Slowbro by Surfing which allows you to skip the terrible Slowpoke phase and obtain a good battler that doesn't need much grinding. You can teach it Ice Punch and Surf and it comes with Confusion so it has great power and coverage right away. It does come later but you still have at least 4 Johto gyms and the entire Elite 4 to contribute in and a Slowbro with those moves can contribute in every single one of them to varying degrees.

Alternatively you could catch a Slowpoke and use the King's Rock that comes at the same time to get Slowking. Slowking might actually be better than Slowbro just because its higher Special Defense is better at taking super-effective hits in important battles, which are primarily going to be special attacks (strong Bug and Ghost attacks are rare after Strength is obtained). That requires a trade though and Slowbro is basically the same thing if you can't trade.

If you did it that way then I can see Slowpoke being B (possibly even A since Psyduck is there now, but then Slowbro/king requires a much longer backtrack and will have to deal with chip damage more frequently due to its Speed). But yes unevolved Slowpoke is really bad so if you were tiering based on that then C wouldn't be out of the question!
 

Colonel M

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With Slowpoke's tiering I assumed something like Strength / Surf obtained and backtracking. Even at that point if you just caught Slowpoke it probably could hold itself up to an extent. But yeah - 'bro and 'king are much more preferred. I was considering A but I backed away because, though it has STAB Confusion, it is slower. I am still open to the consideration though.

After Random PasserbPasserby's analysis - though possibly slight in bias and confusiom (Lv 15-18 for Crobat? Wut?) The analysis at least convinces me Zubat for B is very reasonable. A may be a bit off - but like Slowpoke I am open to the suggestion.

Also thank you Passerby for the analysis of the eggs. Good stuff.

Final note about Bellsprout - though Bellsprout is not necessarily a powerhouse I would like to remind you that the majority of Grass-types sans Chikorita have terrible STAB options. Growth helps a little at least since it boosts Vine Whip (sadly not Sludge Bomb). Still yeah - Grass-types are atrocious in this game.

Thus far the only change is likely Zubat to B-A. Slowpoke IIRC is B which I think, if catching the one after Surf, alleviates a lot of pain as Slowpoke and justifies B. Could be A but Slowpoke phase is atrocious enough. The questions boil back to its Speed and performance with early Slowbro / Slowking.

Sandshrew is already C as is Elekid. Seems like the run solidified that. Thank you.

If Bellsprout isnt D then Ill just move it there.

I think Ledyba is E but if it isnt for some godawful reason I will gladly shove it there.
 
With Slowpoke's tiering I assumed something like Strength / Surf obtained and backtracking. Even at that point if you just caught Slowpoke it probably could hold itself up to an extent. But yeah - 'bro and 'king are much more preferred. I was considering A but I backed away because, though it has STAB Confusion, it is slower. I am still open to the consideration though.

After Random PasserbPasserby's analysis - though possibly slight in bias and confusiom (Lv 15-18 for Crobat? Wut?) The analysis at least convinces me Zubat for B is very reasonable. A may be a bit off - but like Slowpoke I am open to the suggestion.

Also thank you Passerby for the analysis of the eggs. Good stuff.

Final note about Bellsprout - though Bellsprout is not necessarily a powerhouse I would like to remind you that the majority of Grass-types sans Chikorita have terrible STAB options. Growth helps a little at least since it boosts Vine Whip (sadly not Sludge Bomb). Still yeah - Grass-types are atrocious in this game.

Thus far the only change is likely Zubat to B-A. Slowpoke IIRC is B which I think, if catching the one after Surf, alleviates a lot of pain as Slowpoke and justifies B. Could be A but Slowpoke phase is atrocious enough. The questions boil back to its Speed and performance with early Slowbro / Slowking.

Sandshrew is already C as is Elekid. Seems like the run solidified that. Thank you.

If Bellsprout isnt D then Ill just move it there.

I think Ledyba is E but if it isnt for some godawful reason I will gladly shove it there.
Actually Lv 15 - 18 for Crobat is very reasonable considering you can use a Friend Ball to get a Lv 10 - 13 Golbat and the Haircut Brothers can be manipulated to come. Also, Return is a very strong move to spam, especially when your friendship level is high. I might be overrating it, though.

Slowpoke suffers from the Marill syndrome of BW2 ; although it can be obtained early (or in Marill's case, it's pre-evo), you would want to catch it later due to its painful initial stages. Difference is, Azumarill, although no speed demon, hits very very hard and has a lot of good match-ups. I might be a bit harsh on Slowbro but it doesn't seem to justify A rank, perhaps B if you obtained it later.

No problem for the analysis of eggs.
 
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Colonel M

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Oh, I see why you said Level 15-18 now. Though from what I can tell Golbat can only be caught at minimum Level 16 on Route 42:

Source

This is also a Crystal only thing. Just so we're clear on that too.

I seriously never knew about this until today. Almost 10 years later and I learn something new about GSC. Who would have thunk?
 
Well, you probably didn't spend these 10 years playing GSC non-stop then (I know I did plenty of other things).

I'm only aware of L13 Golbat in Mt Mortar, Crystal-exclusive, but whether you get a Crobat at L21 or L16 shouldn't be of essence to his tiering. B tier is probably sound enough at this point unless there's an observable change of trend in the tiering process. I had a very comfortable experience with Crobat evolving in the early 20s without utilising the haircut brothers' services.
 

Colonel M

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Moved Zubat to B and Bellsprout to D (I dont think anyone will really object much on Bellsprout).

I feel the main discussions should pan to these individuals and possible tier list placings:

- Mareep to A: thus far I think atsync and I agree on it, though Lucchini does have some doubts (Speed in particular, which is a problem for Mareep). I think despite the Speed issue it contributes well - it can even contribute beyond many Electric-types because it has an actual Electric-type move that isn't ThunderShock and has access to some secondary coverage (Fire Punch, DynamicPunch). A lot of its gym performances are pretty good and it has some solid contributions in the Elite 4 / Kanto too.
- Chikorita to remain B or move to C: Chikorita is a Pokemon we really need to think about a bit more. By no means will I say Chikorita is garbage enough to drop anywhere lower than C. Unlike 90% of the Grass-types in this game Chikorita has an actual STAB Grass-type attack and can actually evolve outside of stone conditions. It has capability of learning Earthquake and Body Slam (the latter naturally) and it can at least support the team with screens / Poisonpowder (though that's about it). The problem is comparatively to many B Tier Pokemon it looks really bad:

- Mareep, who is currently in B, mops the floor against Chikorita 9 times out of 10. The only exception are Ground-types.
- Zubat, who has recently joined in B, has access to a stronger Return earlier in the game while having STAB Fly - which has less resistances overall than Chikorita's STAB Razor Leaf has. As an added bonus Crobat's typing makes it pretty comparable durably to Meganium.
- Jynx arrives late; however, it is pretty good for Claire and can be a great assistance against Lance. Jynx also has some usability against Will and Bruno since it resists's Will's STAB Psychic attacks while having STAB Ice Punch for Xatus and Exeggutor. For Bruno you could Lovely Kiss plus STAB Dream Eater everyone he has (I dont even think Onix really stands a chance).
- Lapras arrives later than Chikorita. Lapras does have access to STAB Icy Wind through Pryce and, eventually, STAB Ice Beam. This doesn't even include STAB Surf which is obtainable as soon as you have Lapras and potential access to Zap Cannon or Thunder.
- Spearow joins roughly the same time as Chikorita (or could be later) and it actually has some pretty strong advantages earlygame with STAB Peck hitting a lot of Pokemon super effectively in some routes, Sprout Tower, and Bugsy.

I mean I'm not saying a person can't find comparisons with these Pokemon (or others in B) against Chikorita to make it look like Chikorita is about equal, but it's really hard for me to see some of them. That's why I want more discussion going on about it.

- Ho-oh (S) and Lugia (G) to B: Something I've forgotten about the opposite cover legendaries are that they arrive at an extremely high level (70!!!) which means for their remainder period of the game they can just shitstomp everything that stands. Aside from joining very late (after you clear Snorlax) they do require a hefty detour. Still, they almost solidify a victory against Red since they're probably the Pokemon closest to Red's levels. Basically they would move to B merely for having no work needed (aside from going to catch them) and they come instantly great.

Crystal Lugia is a little weaker (Level 60) but still - functional and roughly the same idea.
- Swap Bellossom and Vileplume's tier placements: Fireburn brought it up long ago. Forgot about it. Dont really have an objection.
 
It all boils down to how much you want to punish mons for being slowmons. The thing Golem has going for him is having the typing that is still effective in this generation when it comes to hard-walling stuff. Flaafy resists electric, flying and steel moves, which doesn't make it awfully useful defensively even if its non-speed bases are very good. It's also not attacking as well as Golem because of the learnpool difference (75 BP move for Flaafy / 100 BP move for Golem).

I also wouldn't give ANY credit to Dynamicpunch access whatsoever. You brought up playing the game 10 years ago, and that's the last time I recall trying seriously including that move in my movesets. Let's say it never helped me out against Karen's Umbreon as I intended. I shudder when I see Zap Cannon mentioned too (dreadful availability too).

Meganium, on the other hand, has some really good stats, stats that if you saw on a water-type Pokemon, you'd send them to A tier at least without even looking at their natural movepool. But it's not a water-type and is instead a really disadvantaged type. Still, what it does have going for it would be: 1) early accessibility as a starter, 2) good bases, 3) very early Razor Leaf with a very high BP when first learnt, 4) access to Earthquake/Iron Tail for much-needed coverage since you only have Razor Leaf left if you're not seriously considering using the Sunnybeam combo. I'd say it's not worse than Crobat who is tied to very specific actions (making a Friend Ball) in a very specific game (Crystal), but its failure to compete with the other two starters amplify its weaknesses in our eyes. We could go as far as send it to D tier, or E tier, if we dwell on how much it fails in contrast to Cyndaquil or Totodile, but I say we just keep it in B for the things it DOES do well. The dual screens does provide utility for teams consisting of mons below S/A tier after all, as you could have difficulty dealing with certain threats well.

Jynx loses to Chikorita in availability and comes at a very low level, making it hard to raise so that it performs well in those Johto lategame matchups. Lapras is hard to catch if you're not manipulating time. Spearow is indeed better than Chikorita to an extent it could warrant a tier difference, but I think it's Spearow who's going up instead (remember also that little chart in Excel I showed, which depicts how being normal/flying bolsters damage).

And I think Gloom's evolutions are both equally crappy (and I believe somebody agreed with this idea when I expressed it earlier in the thread, so it's not me being tendentious) - no distinction on the tier list needed.
 

DHR-107

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Chikorita is *horrible*

It has to be C or worse. It has 0 matchups, doesn't really beat a single gym mon until Poliwrath (maybe Reflect shenanigans can help against Miltank), does OK against Pryce all things considered and his horrible against Claire. Even against Team Rocket its poor because of the sheer number of Poison/Flying/Fire types they carry. Early Razor Leaf is great, but that's basically its entire movepool until Body Slam. The only other gym leaders it pulls weight against are in Kanto, where it does pretty well wherever Bulbasaur does in RBY... (Brock/Misty/Surge)

In terms of cost, there is utterly no reason to use Chikorita over either of the other two starters. The entire game is rough on the poor little thing, especially the start where you kinda need your Starter to be pulling its weight. Grass in general is pretty horrible typing in GSC, especially considering the Pokemon available that are Grass, and no gym matchup in Grass' favour.
 
C-Tier is where we have things like Hoothoot, Venonat and the odd eggs. I don't think any of these make good company to Chikorita.

Razor Leaf isn't Chikorita's only move. You could take Mud-Slap for Magnemites (and that's about all it's good for; maybe you could use it in Morty's gym too) and Headbutt for things that resist grass. Water Pokemon are extremely common in trainer battles so Chikorita has a unique niche, and, for whatever it's worth, it's the best grass-type in this game.

"0 matchups" is an understatement, and you did mention the times the Pokemon can be useful yourself. Pryce, all of whose mons are hit SE by Razor Leaf, has Icy Wind, which reduces Meganium's (likely not Bayleef at this point) speed and leads to it getting hit by more Icy Winds or, much worse, Piloswine's Blizzard.

I don't think a "good matchup" is something so straightforward in the first place. Are you always going first and OHKOing? Can you reliably solo a gym leader without using items or switching out? Do you have major contributions in a gym while working as part of a team? Do you contribute to other team members in a major or minor way? Gym performance can be graded, and there is never a case where Chikorita is a complete 0 - in the first gym, it can take on Pidgey for example (the utility of slowly beating Metapod and Kakuna when up against Bugsy is much more dubious however).

Defensively, Chikorita's typing is quite comparable to Cyndaquil's typing in-games. Cyndaquil is hit SE by Mud-Slap in the first gym, and then Miltank's Rollout. Poliwrath packs Surf (resisted by Bayleef/Meganium) and so does a half of Clair's line-up (Meganium is only weak to Ice Beam from one of the Dragonairs). Steelix has Rock Throw if you're taking too long when taking it out with.... Ember. Bayleef/Meganium also doesn't mind being hit by Thunderbolt from Jasmine's Magnemites and one of the Dragonairs in the last gym.

As for looking at picking an inferior starter as a "cost" - well, there'd be no reason to use Cyndaquil when Totodile is an option either, would there? Chikorita's flaws are more or less clear to everyone but let's not selectively turn every part of its existence into one giant flaw.
 

DHR-107

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C-Tier is where we have things like Hoothoot, Venonat and the odd eggs. I don't think any of these make good company to Chikorita.
I guess this is true enough. It is a lot better than stuff like venonat/Hoothoot (who should be murdered imo).

"0 matchups" is an understatement, and you did mention the times the Pokemon can be useful yourself. Pryce, all of whose mons are hit SE by Razor Leaf, has Icy Wind, which reduces Meganium's (likely not Bayleef at this point) speed and leads to it getting hit by more Icy Winds or, much worse, Piloswine's Blizzard.

I don't think a "good matchup" is something so straightforward in the first place. Are you always going first and OHKOing? Can you reliably solo a gym leader without using items or switching out? Do you have major contributions in a gym while working as part of a team? Do you contribute to other team members in a major or minor way? Gym performance can be graded, and there is never a case where Chikorita is a complete 0 - in the first gym, it can take on Pidgey for example (the utility of slowly beating Metapod and Kakuna when up against Bugsy is much more dubious however).
I am aware of how the matchups work. Meganium is just "ok" against Pryce considering the lowish levels of Pryce's mons and how weak Icy Wind is. At just Lv 32 (minimum for Meganium), the only mon it has issues with is Dewgong, and thats more because of Dewgongs bulk. Seel is 2HKO'd and Piloswine is very close to be. Aurora Beam is a lot scarier to Meganium. Dewgong deals ~35%. With some healing its possible. Meganium is horrible against pretty much every other gym.

Good match up imo is just any reasonable contest where your mon will come out on top. Meganium might have good matchups against random trainers [and the random Gym mon like Pidgey and Poliwrath], and that's good. But against the principle trainers (Gym leaders/Bosses etc), it falls flat on its face. Cyndaquil flat out beats on Bugsy, can hold its own Vs Morty, beats Jasmine and can take down Piloswine (off the top of my head). I'd say Cynda has better matchups (not as good as Toto who basically beats the whole game) than Chikorita.

Defensively, Chikorita's typing is quite comparable to Cyndaquil's typing in-games. Cyndaquil is hit SE by Mud-Slap in the first gym, and then Miltank's Rollout. Poliwrath packs Surf (resisted by Bayleef/Meganium) and so does a half of Clair's line-up (Meganium is only weak to Ice Beam from one of the Dragonairs). Steelix has Rock Throw if you're taking too long when taking it out with.... Ember. Bayleef/Meganium also doesn't mind being hit by Thunderbolt from Jasmine's Magnemites and one of the Dragonairs in the last gym.

As for looking at picking an inferior starter as a "cost" - well, there'd be no reason to use Cyndaquil when Totodile is an option either, would there? Chikorita's flaws are more or less clear to everyone but let's not selectively turn every part of its existence into one giant flaw.
Either way, If Toto is S and Cynda is A, Chikorita should be B. Its the worst of the starters by a mile.
 

atsync

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I don't have any issue with Chikorita staying in B. Obviously it's the worst starter (and that's already reflected by it being in B considering Totodile and Cyndaquil rank higher than that) but I don't think it's as devastatingly poor as some people seem to think it is. And as for those comparisons to other B-tiers...well, I don't necessarily think Jynx is "better" than Chikorita to the extent that you could rank it higher (although comparing them is difficult when they have basically nothing in common) and to be fair, Lapras, Mareep, and Spearow have all been proposed as possible A-tiers at some point in this thread and if that does end up happening then those comparisons don't really mean much for Chikorita's status as B-tier.

- Ho-oh (S) and Lugia (G) to B: Something I've forgotten about the opposite cover legendaries are that they arrive at an extremely high level (70!!!) which means for their remainder period of the game they can just shitstomp everything that stands. Aside from joining very late (after you clear Snorlax) they do require a hefty detour. Still, they almost solidify a victory against Red since they're probably the Pokemon closest to Red's levels. Basically they would move to B merely for having no work needed (aside from going to catch them) and they come instantly great.

Crystal Lugia is a little weaker (Level 60) but still - functional and roughly the same idea.
The team you are using by the time you reach Kanto will generally "shitstomp everything that stands" just fine without those guys so realistically you aren't gaining a whole lot from going for them, but to be fair you do gain something for Red, and Blue as well (pretty much the only other trainer post-Elite 4 who I would consider even remotely challenging).

If Snorlax, another Kanto-only high-level catch, is in B tier then you could make a case for these guys too. But to be honest I don't really agree with Snorlax in B to begin with for reasons mentioned by Mekkah earlier in this thread, specifically about how much of a joke the opponents in Kanto are compared to those in Johto. I wouldn't go so far as to just dump literally every Kanto-exclusive Pokemon in the lowest tier (although most of them do belong there) but I do feel that Johto is more important than Kanto and the tier list could reflect that better.

However I'm also interested in tiering things consistently and if you decide that Kanto performance is more valuable than I do then that's fine, in which case Silver Ho-Oh and Gold (and possibly Crystal but that's more of a stretch) Lugia COULD rank alongside Snorlax - all of them are late-game additions that don't require the extensive grinding that all the other Kanto Pokemon require and overall I'd say there is an argument for them to be in the same tier. But even then Snorlax is sufficiently leveled enough upon capture that it would be as good in Kanto as the rest of your team that already beats practically everything just fine, so really all your getting over Snorlax for the lengthy detour that Ho-Oh and Lugia demand of you are better/grind-less match-ups on Red and Blue.

So...I guess what I'm saying is that I'm interpreting Snorlax's current placement as you placing more value on performance in Kanto, in which case I'd say that placing Ho-Oh and Lugia in B is acceptable, but that I don't really agree that Kanto (the ONLY part where Ho-Oh and Lugia get to do ANYTHING) should factor into tiering that much.
 
I think Snorlax can be considered slightly worse than most of your mons in Kanto because it's so slow that it's going to get hit by everything before it attacks. It's not gamebreaking but it costs time.
 
I sorta think the same thing, but why are we judging Johto performance to be more important than the Kanto matchups? Is it because of how easy Kanto is, or because it's technically postgame? In HG/SS, there are actual challenging trainers in Kanto, and the gym leaders' levels are considerably higher. Is it just a GSC thing, or a general division into "maingame" and "postgame" with us drawing the line at becoming the champion?
 

Colonel M

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Better solution is probably just to throw Snorlax to C. Still values the contribution it can bring to Red and Co. but emphasizes that it still has issues.
 
Chikorita is *horrible*

It has to be C or worse. It has 0 matchups, doesn't really beat a single gym mon until Poliwrath (maybe Reflect shenanigans can help against Miltank), does OK against Pryce all things considered and his horrible against Claire. Even against Team Rocket its poor because of the sheer number of Poison/Flying/Fire types they carry. Early Razor Leaf is great, but that's basically its entire movepool until Body Slam. The only other gym leaders it pulls weight against are in Kanto, where it does pretty well wherever Bulbasaur does in RBY... (Brock/Misty/Surge)

In terms of cost, there is utterly no reason to use Chikorita over either of the other two starters. The entire game is rough on the poor little thing, especially the start where you kinda need your Starter to be pulling its weight. Grass in general is pretty horrible typing in GSC, especially considering the Pokemon available that are Grass, and no gym matchup in Grass' favour.
Although Chikorita has poor match-ups, it is actually the best Grass-type in the game (screw Bellsprout / Oddish / Sunkern). C tier is where garbage Pokemon like Venonat and Hoothoot lie and I feel Chikorita is much better than them. In fact, it is comparable to the mons in B tier such as Jynx, Mareep, etc.

Jynx: Comes late and underlevelled (although should be able to defeat the Dragonaires). Meganium has a better match-up against Kingdra though.

Mareep: Slow and has to tank hits before hitting back. Also, relying on Thundershock until LV30 sucks.

Slowpoke: I pointed out its flaws before in this page so ....
 
I sorta think the same thing, but why are we judging Johto performance to be more important than the Kanto matchups? Is it because of how easy Kanto is, or because it's technically postgame? In HG/SS, there are actual challenging trainers in Kanto, and the gym leaders' levels are considerably higher. Is it just a GSC thing, or a general division into "maingame" and "postgame" with us drawing the line at becoming the champion?
Ease of Kanto. It's very hard to differentiate between 'mons when you're fighting trainers with Pokémon 10-20 levels lower than yours. So Johto is what should make the difference.
 
Ease of Kanto. It's very hard to differentiate between 'mons when you're fighting trainers with Pokémon 10-20 levels lower than yours. So Johto is what should make the difference.
Shouldn't we punish slowmons more if the OHKO requirements are so easy to meet in this game?
 

atsync

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Just wanted to say that while I still favour Chikorita in B, I don't really have a huge problem with it dropping to C either. I get the sense more people than not would like to see it drop and I don't really want to slow this project down even more by arguing for something I don't really feel that strongly about.

Sometime during the week I'm planning on going through the higher tiers and commenting on where everything sits at the moment. Just at a glance there are some things I'm not so sure about, but I'll wait until I can get some time to put a proper post together before I comment further.

Better solution is probably just to throw Snorlax to C. Still values the contribution it can bring to Red and Co. but emphasizes that it still has issues.
I'm fine with this.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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I moved Snorlax to C.

I'm in the boat of putting Chikorita to C but I think - much like Lucchini and some others have stated, it is hard to really see Chikorita in a tier with Pokemon like Hoothoot and Venonat. Perhaps this could call for them to drop, but even so Chikorita is one of those Pokemon that do contribute every now and then and comes to the trainer for free even if the trainer was dumb enough to choose it over the other two starters. Let's remember that currently Totodile is in S and Cyndaquil is in A. I point to these Pokemon because they have the same availability and currently are a tier or two apart from Chikorita.

Even if we agree that Grass-types as a whole are rather... crummy Chikorita does have some grounds of being somewhat useful since it is the only real relevant Grass-type in Johto. The others are okay but they usually require evolutionary stones (Oddish, Bellsprout, Exeggcute), lack stats and / or a movepool to really work well (Hoppip, Sunkern, Paras), or unavailable (Bulbasaur, Celebi). Note there is also Tangela who actually flew right under my radar but it isn't even available until after Team Rocket in Radio Tower which at that point Grass-types aren't even needed outside of Kanto which as mentioned is rather short.

Though much like atsync said I understand we shouldn't delay this project much further; however, I believe we can continue discussing this while still moving forward. Aside from Chikorita and possibly a few outliers I don't think many have really raised huge objections to anything else about the tier list and I can't really think of many myself (maybe like Cubone to B, Mareep to A, or Magmar down to A but that's about it).
 
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