Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

[Prinz]

Yeh damn Feraligatr is a bit too much, didnt even know it was already released and I must say it's just too powerful for that tier lol. I don't think it's the right place to talk about it and the new releases tho, so I will just say my opinion about the suspected mons now.

About Mega Steelix I won't say much as everyone almost said everything about it, and from what I have seen from the post people made, it's quite clearly that almost everyone agrees that it needs to leave the NU tier.

Otherwise, about Heliolisk I have seen people that support it to not be banned too, tbh my NU experience isn't really good but from what I have seen playing a bit the tier in the last few days, while Heliolisk is quite frail and doesn't really like to tank hits, the combination of speed, special attack and coverage seems a bit too much for the NU tier in my eyes. It's also a really great mon to take momentum during a battle, as ground-type mons can't really switch-in on it cus it usually runs Surf that would punish em otherwise. To me it looks a bit as the Greninja of the NU tier, frail, weak to priority move, and can't really switch-in on anything but when it does, it's speed + attacks + coverage isn't something easily to handle for anything so if I get to chance to vote, I'll probably vote ban on this one, as well as on Mega Steelix.

 

[Orphic]

There were some who supported a typh suspect prior to these releases, do you guys think with typh now checking itself a suspect won't be necessary? Or more necessary now every team will require a typh to check the opposing typh?

Vileplume needs to watch out even more for ice punch gatr, even physical defensive plume will likely be a 2hko now!

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

So... I've never played NU before this suspect test. Last time was like B/W1 NU. I went into this shit completely clueless of the meta and threw together a team from the viability rankings, so yay they are actually useful once every full moon. I still haven't gotten reqs, but w/e I only started on it yesterday and I guess it's over now?

Anyways, with that said. I ran a team with the two suspects and Healing Wish Mesprit as a back-up. Now, it's well-known that Healing Wish is a move that gets better and better the more broken the mons in a tier is, which is why I wanted to check it out. And honestly speaking, it worked alright. Since I also had an Archeops on the team, I quickly found out that the suspects are heavily prepared for, and my M-lix only occasionally did something else than putting up rocks and die and Heliolisk was just a mon I didn't excel at using (I am a defensive player by nature, using offense isn't my thing generally speaking) so it was often used to simply revenge-kill something or clean up late-game rather than grab momentum for me. However, Archeops was my team's MVP, performing excellently in a meta seemingly weak to Flying STABs (Like, M-lix preys on Archeops' counters). Making an excellent mon into an anti-meta mon in many ways is an interesting effect.

M-Lix is an interesting mon, really. Walls half the meta, loses to 25% of it, and can potentially be lured by the remaining part. Being the powerful mon it is, the meta will adjust to it rather than him sneaking in as an anti-meta pokemon and centralize it around himself. I often saw teams with three checks to him and three mons that lost to him out there, which obviously isn't a desirable meta. And with Healing Wish support, he is outright monsterous to face. I luckily didn't face a single team with Healing Wish support for him from like 25 games yesterday (which is all of my knowledge of the meta lol), because yeah my main way of beating him was Typh or my own M-lix. Or a 2hko on switches with Heliolisk. I still had three mons that really couldn't touch opposing M-lix (There is a pattern, I know it!) But yeah, one Healing Wish could turn the game completely around. And as I said earlier, that proves an unhealthy metagame by extension. Don't get me wrong, Healing Wish is a good move as it is, but it's even better with brokemons (I remember running Dual Healing Wish support in the Mega Kang era of OU for instance).

Heliolisk... well, my best way of beating it was with my own I noticed. Not really intentional in any way, but that's how it ended up. Whoever won the second speedtie won the game usually. I didn't run any other offensive checks to it, which I in hindsight should've accounted for, but yeah w/e. It's a good mon, but I don't want to say it's too good. It's iffy.

But hey, I'm completely new to this meta and you'll probably not hear from me in a good while, so take my post with a grain of salt.


Also on the Johto additions: Feraligatr pls go, Typh should still stick to Blaze unless your team is Typh weak.

 

[Teddeh]

The calcs are clear, gatr has double the power now however since it's running sheer force and life orb, no more torrent AJ sweeps and the DD set becomes 10000% better. As far as typh goes, it's hidden ability has made it worse in my opinion since you can no longer come in and spam eruptions if you're facing opposing typh and if you choose to run flash fire, you lose your blaze boosted fire blast which had the power to make it an S rank mon. As far as other fire types are concerned; magmortar + pyroar both are basically untroubled by this change since pyroar outspeeds typh unless scarf flash fire becomes a thing and magmortar is bulky enough to take any hit and still be typh 1 on 1. However i've not used either.

 

[Kurona]

There were some who supported a typh suspect prior to these releases, do you guys think with typh now checking itself a suspect won't be necessary? Or more necessary now every team will require a typh to check the opposing typh?

Vileplume needs to watch out even more for ice punch gatr, even physical defensive plume will likely be a 2hko now!

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Flash Fire doesn't make Typhlosion any more suspect-worthy than it already was. It's honestly not that big of a chance; and I think it'd actually prefer blaze to have a guaranteed power boost after being worn down. The most you can say is that people won't just mindlessly shoot off fire attacks against a team with Typhlosion.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright, so, first, hello! I've yet to be around this part of the forum in quite some time. But, I've finally decided to get my ass back into NU. My gawd, was it disturbing. I'll try to refrain from prolonging my reasoning as it has likely been said well over 1000 times, but here goes.

Mega Steelix
My lord, this thing is just obnoxious. It has the bulk to avoid damn near any OHKO that isn't coming from Typhlosion or Camel, and has the power of a 20 Ton truck thanks to Heavy slam, and earthquake. The simple combo of its STAB is more than enough to terrorize the meta, and put huge dents in pretty much any and everything. If only that's where it ended. . . See, thanks to its insane power, it simply needs to run Dual STAB to be pretty damn near prepared on the offensive side. Leaving two slots open for it to do whatever it wants. Which is typically Stealth Rock and roar, but while laddering, I saw far too many other things being ran. Truth is, whatever can stop it from being an overly terrifying offensive presence, has a tough time dealing with it defensively. Overall, this thing is just FAR too much for the NU tier in its current state, and honestly just needs to go.
Ban

Heliolisk
Not much needs to be said about this thing other than, it's the slightly weaker version of Greninja in OU. I know, that's over shooting it, but it really is just a game of pick what to dent. On my team of 6, I had one Pokemon that could reliably take its hits, and that was SpDef Zweilous. Everything else died, and in a majority of teams I faced, I realized it was the case for them too. And if Heliolisk didn't kill it upon switching in, it killed it next turn. Even Zweilous didn't exactly enjoy taking Hyper Voices, which did typically about 30%, and even then I ran into a few Focus Blast Heliolisk along the way. It really does have something for everything, and its power is just obnoxious thanks to LO. Add all of this on top of its insane speed, and you have a huge problem on your hands. Heliolisk was fun while it lasted, but it's time it gets to getting.
Ban

On to Ty and Gatr.

 

[HJAD]

Just gonna post my quick opinions; on gatr and typh that is. For all those who want gatr and typh quickbanned (not so much typh but there has been quite some clamour for a gatr quick ban), I would immediately disagree and say that although gatr ( I'm gonna speak about this first) got quite a healthy buff from sheer force, this doesn't immediately make it qb worthy.

The reason why it isn't qb worthy, is because gatr STILL isn't uncounterable. The likes of Poliwrath, Ferroseed and more bulky waters like Frillish (crunch kinda kills but we dont even know what set it runs) can still counter gatr and mitigate it from the match (unless you sack it for whatever reason). Previous NU teams could have just ran 1 fast grass type in order to keep gatr in check, and it was effective way of doing so however, now, gatrs best set by far is dd, SD gains nothing apart from a slightly boosted waterfall and ice punch, these checks like lilligant can no longer safely check the gatr.
Another reason why I don't think gatr is quickbannable is because it actually lost something in the transition from torrent to sheer force. Its item. Now, all gatr will be stuck with sheer force life orb dd set, although this cannot be disadvantage in itself, its now lost its free item slot from before. Whereas before it could have run lum berry, rindo berry and wacan berry (mystic water is not going to be argued since its outclassed now) it could heal status or become a specialist mon. Now with life orb, gatr can't eat status like before, or eat a volt switch/giga and claim a life. This, now matter how insignificant, affects its sweeping potential.
My final argument to why gatr shouldn't be quickbanned is that it will really only run 1 set from now, the sheer force life orb DD set with 3 attacks or sub + 2 attacks. Although, this doesn't affect its sweeping capability vs unprepared teams, it allows for more specialist counters to be used or even lures. This does depend on how much the meta has to adjust but its still a reason for gatr not to be quickbanned.
My conclusion is: don't quickban gatr, and all those asking for one to stop. I personally want to see how the meta will adjust and if necessary a suspect test at a later date.

As far as typh is concerned, i personally think it just got worse. Now if your a typhlosion and you see a typhlosion on the other team. You cant freely spam eruption/fire blast like you used to. Losing Blaze is also kinda a big deal because imo part of what makes typh so scary is that it can hit really hard at full HP with eruption and at low HP, it still packs a punch with blaze boosted fire blast for even more power. Now, so many 50/50s will be caused by people running blaze to bluff the flash fire set and those running flash fire due to bring particularly weak to typh itself. As a result, I don't see typh being as prevalent as I used to see it and due to this fact I won't only say no qb, but I dot think its even suspect worthy anymore. But hey, I've been wrong before ;]

 

[El Coqui]

Is there particular reason Heliolisk dropped in the first place? Usage or just being outclassed by Jolteon? Yeah its powerful and annoying to deal with but I would see it as a healthy change to the NU meta, allowing for maybe a reemergence of some sets and an inclusion of new mons to the meta.

Mega-Lix....well frankly since the last tier change he's been running amok with no real checks. Not even Quagsire and Claydol, probably the best current checks to it can safely come in since they get pulverized by Heavy Slam.

As an aside about Gatr....I don't feel quickbanning is needed at all. Virizion and Heliolisk at the moment are good offensive checks (albiet as long as Gatr has yet to DD). Plus there were several things that walled/checked Gatr before and that may have only lessened by a little (Quagsire anyone???? Unless GiftGatr remains a thing)

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

Is there particular reason Heliolisk dropped in the first place? Usage or just being outclassed by Jolteon? Yeah its powerful and annoying to deal with but I would see it as a healthy change to the NU meta, allowing for maybe a reemergence of some sets and an inclusion of new mons to the meta.

Mega-Lix....well frankly since the last tier change he's been running amok with no real checks. Not even Quagsire and Claydol, probably the best current checks to it can safely come in since they get pulverized by Heavy Slam.

Jolteon has a smaller movepool but much higher speed and baton pass which helps pass boosts like charge beams, sub and puvot out against ground types

 

[El Coqui]

Jolteon has a smaller movepool but much higher speed and baton pass which helps pass boosts like charge beams, sub and puvot out against ground types

So with that said wouldn't Helio, if it ascends, go back to poor usage? I have played little RU so I don't know that meta too well but do believe Helio could add to the changing NU meta if it would be ignored in RU

 

[Bowtie Addo]

We don't really care of what happens to it after it gets banned, the problem is what it is doing to the metagame right now.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

So with that said wouldn't Helio, if it ascends, go back to poor usage? I have played little RU so I don't know that meta too well but do believe Helio could add to the changing NU meta if it would be ignored in RU

Regardless of whether its usage in RU would be low or nonexistent doesn't matter. It's a terror in NU, and that's all that matters.

 

[cyanize]

Now for HJAD all the people saying not to quickban Gatr , you gotta remember that special Gatr is now completely viable being stronger and faster than Samurott.
Calcs:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 149-177 (39.1 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 192-227 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ok samurott's hydro is stronger)

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO
vs.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 105-125 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

grass knot varies, but you get the point

But the thing that set special Gatr apart which allows it to BLAST (pun completely intended) through a lot of it counters is access to Focus Blast.

More calcs:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 265-312 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Feraligatr Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 380-452 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (ik it's not FB but FB 2HKO's anyway)
252+ SpA Life Orb Feraligatr Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 322-380 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 231-274 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (weezing gets 2HKO'd by +1 Waterfall anyway)

So now not only is it crazy strong it also has viable versatility in its special moveset and is p much unstoppable until you find out what its moveset is. Hell, if you REALLY wanted to you could run mixed. I'm sure a lot of people would prefer to NOT have this thing in the meta.

also screw sheddy cuz it gets rock slide

 

[El Coqui]

We don't really care of what happens to it after it gets banned, the problem is what it is doing to the metagame right now.

I'd just say its one of the many mons changing the meta is all. I haven't finished testing (2200 coil) but I have played with and against it several times. It's less morphing the meta around it than Mega-Lix and like I said it may, along with the other new mons/releases, provide further good changes to the meta

 

[RoseColoredCampusLife]

Now for HJAD all the people saying not to quickban Gatr , you gotta remember that special Gatr is now completely viable being stronger and faster than Samurott.
Calcs:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 149-177 (39.1 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 192-227 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ok samurott's hydro is stronger)

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO
vs.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 105-125 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

grass knot varies, but you get the point

But the thing that set special Gatr apart which allows it to BLAST (pun completely intended) through a lot of it counters is access to Focus Blast.

More calcs:

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 265-312 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Feraligatr Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 380-452 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (ik it's not FB but FB 2HKO's anyway)
252+ SpA Life Orb Feraligatr Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 322-380 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 231-274 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (weezing gets 2HKO'd by +1 Waterfall anyway)

So now not only is it crazy strong it also has viable versatility in its special moveset and is p much unstoppable until you find out what its moveset is. Hell, if you REALLY wanted to you could run mixed. I'm sure a lot of people would prefer to NOT have this thing in the meta.

also screw sheddy cuz it gets rock slide

Why show calcs against a never before seen arceus variant? Besides that, gatr is so much more viable as a physical attacker due to overall power and because of access to moves like sd and dd. Plus as long as mantine and toad see usage in NU I don't think many people with opt to use a special gatr.

 

[Sonzinho]

Mega Steelix: It has so many great deffensive capacities and offensive ones, it is a perfect ace to get added in various game styles 'cause it does what it has to do with effectiveness . It sets up SR, resists só many hits and it gives all the damage back, including its ability to phaze the foe's team. beyond the main moveset he can run to Curse Restalk, Rock Polish or even put it on a sand team and take advantage of their ability. The lack of recovery is offset by the ability to defeat things with its enormous power, few come into his punches and can not do it for long because soon fall by the sheer force of the serpent and the hazards. Considering all this I vote on BAN.

Heliolisk: When Heliolisk dropped out to NU i was curious about how good it would be, and it was TOO good. Its high SpA and Spe and acess to great STAB moves and a nice coverage makes it really scary, he can scout with Volt Switch against his counters (Gourgeist, for exemple) and puts a Fire mon or any other to check his counters, Ground-Types who's not SpD Torterra can suffer from Grass Knot/Surf or even Hyper Voice, he's a great pivot to gain momentum and blessed with his high speed he can easily revenge and do astronomical damage or just scout with Volt Switch, he's really broken because his lure-nature movepool and high offensive bases, i vote ban.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Guys Heliolisk usage in RU hardly matters in this test. Plus Heliolisk is a genuinely good Pokemon anyways in RU so you're free to use Heliolisk there and in fact it is actually really good there and is just as good as, if not better than Jolteon in RU because it has far superior coverage over Jolteon in RU and its ability and typing help it check relevant threats in RU such as Doublade and Clawitzer. It won't be ignored in RU, maybe by the ladder scrubs but it'll definitely be used because it is both good and viable in RU, if anything it will still be seeing at least 2% usage if not more. It's also being used by UU players and is a rising threat there too. We should be looking only at how Heliolisk performs in this tier, and it is banworthy for reasons that have been stated by many people, including myself, so... (PS: Mega Steelix is incredible in RU as well).

Again, as an overall point I should be making here: a Pokemon's performance in a higher tier is completely irrelevant when suspecting stuff. What matters is whether a Pokemon breaks a certain tier. Mega Lucario is pretty bad in Ubers and yet that didn't stop it from getting banned from OU. Same with Mega Mawile, who frankly is pretty terrible in Ubers yet was broken beyond doubt in OU.

I think you should get where I'm going with this. Basically, never use a Pokemon's potential performance in a higher tier as a basis for not banning it from a tier that it breaks.

 

[Senpai D.M]

Thoughts After Reqs; Mega Lix; is so fat and unhealthy for the meta half mons wont see much play because of it, also did I mention its fat? It can run offensive sets or even rest talk and nothing can stop it once it gets to set up and taking out its only counters. Ban

Heliolisk; Is a fast mon that can last although how fragile it is thanks to how strong it is. It can wear down best checks upon switch ins and volt switch out without a problem. my problem with Heliolisk is its too fast and strong for the tier it can just sweep teams late game. Ban

 

[Brawlfest]

sheer force gatr hype

 

[CanadianWifier]

I have played one game "post bans" against raseri, and we both had Special SF Gatr (it did work on both sides, wish I saved replay) and we had one of those Typh stay in on a Typh situation where we both give eachother Flash Fire. New meta is looking refreshing at the very least, we'll have to wait and see just how unhealthy Typh and Gatr become now, lol.
(not that it matters as gatr will be stolen from us in 3 months anyways)

 

[kay]

Just run EQ Typhlosion with Charcoal. Problems solved!

 

[Raseri]

go vote frens

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-stage-4-suspect-voting.3531049/

unless you didnt qualify

 

[watashi]

on gatr: the only real benefit it got was sheer force ice punch to break through some counters. waterfall is nice but its not using that against its switch ins and crunch is useless. on top of that mantine, quagsire, and prinplup have a lot easier time since its not running lum anymore. plus no torrent means it'll actually be easier to revenge kill it with rotom and stuff

as for special its bad lol

 

[New Light]

I've got a feeling that Gatr's gonna rise to RU via usage pretty soon even if it's not banned.

 

[Punchshroom]

on gatr: the only real benefit it got was sheer force ice punch to break through some counters. waterfall is nice but its not using that against its switch ins and crunch is useless.

The more notable boon of Sheer Force is that DD Gatr is no longer worn down by its own Life Orb (unless it uses EQ), removing one of the primary issues DD Gatr had that SD Gatr didn't. That said, I do agree with you that most of the more solid Gatr counters still hold up despite the Sheer Force boost it got, such as Poliwrath, Ludicolo, Tangela, and Ferroseed.

on top of that mantine, quagsire, and prinplup have a lot easier time since its not running lum anymore. plus no torrent means it'll actually be easier to revenge kill it with rotom and stuff

I mean I would still totally run Lum on SD Gatr (albeit now with Sheer Force over Torrent); the question is if SD is still worth using right now. Also I'd probably keep an eye out for SubDD Gatr, since it can nab some free turns against things that would like to status it, such as Weezing, Gourgeist, and bulky Waters such as Mantine, Qwilfish, Pelipper, and Prinplup (Grass Knot Prinplup @3@).