Introducing the OU (no Mega) Ladder

[Wargreymon]

Oh god, if that happens.... I think smogon would be butthurt about no ban on meta :(
Also why don't we make a ladder for ubers no twave, ru no cress, nu no hariyama? This is a really stupid way for bannning things. IMO for uu, just suspect suicune, don't ban scald. But this will actually be fun, unless they actually reintroduce every mega except metagross

I was kidding haha. This tier isn't for suspect testing anything, it seems to be more like a fun experiment for the community. A no mega OU tier actually sounds pretty cool. It'll be interesting to see how this meta develops and see what pokemon turn out to be much stronger when megas aren't around. I'm not looking forward to knock off spam though, considering it already does my head in.

 

[doughboy]

I hate to sound like a killjoy, but what is this meant to accomplish? I highly doubt that we're leading in to a "ban all megas in OU" proposal (please just let us know if this is the case), so is this actually just a side-metagame with no planned relevance to the official environments?

As far as my 2 cents, it sounds like a pretty awful metagame to me. Mega evolutions were a really nice jolt to the Gen 6 metagame that I very much enjoyed and I see no appeal in getting rid of them. Ofc it's no skin off my back, I just won't play there.

Who cares if it accomplishes anything, its a nice fun mixup to see what the current OU metagame would be like without Mevo's.

pharaohcalvin pretty much covered every big change in the transition from BW to XY. I would also include the introduction, nerf, and loss of certain items in the metagame. Assault Vest is a noteworthy competitive item that patched up the Sp. Def of certain pokemon (Tangrowth). We also suffered a nerf to the type-boosting gems (thanks VGC Latios). In early BW, they were traditionally seen as "noob" items because the power boost from Life Orb, the plates, and the choiced items were more consistent. However, later in Gen 5 people were coming up with really cool ways to use them just to give a sweeper or lure just that little extra power to break through a target. Some examples include SD Rock Gem Terrakion, Fighting Gem Focus Punch Breloom, and Draco Meteor Dragon Gem Garchomp. TBH I really miss having that option. Lastly, up until recently we didn't have certain berries like the Custap Berry. Custap Berry was pretty big for offensive teams because they had a consistent SR+Spikes lead after Deo-D was banned.

Oh yeah I also miss the dream world. It was really cool to have the metagame get a new mon every couple of months like Moxie Mence.

 

[New Light]

I like this idea. It should largely take care of the matchup issue people are always complaining about.

 

[Slowking88]

I have just laddered to #1 in the no mega tier and I don't really like it. I have not experienced the BW metagame myself, but I heard that a lot of people are simply reusing those teams. I feel that without megas the standard pokes (land, ferro, rotom, tran, keldeo and what have you) are extremely good in this metagame. I used a team of rotor-w, landorus, bisharp, latios, ferro and keldeo and it was incredibly easy to ladder, but of course I understand that the meta has to settle. I personally do like the idea of slowly introducing lower tier metas, even though that does feel a bit like banning.

 

[Karxrida]

I have just laddered to #1 in the no mega tier and I don't really like it. I have not experienced the BW metagame myself, but I heard that a lot of people are simply reusing those teams. I feel that without megas the standard pokes (land, ferro, rotom, tran, keldeo and what have you) are extremely good in this metagame. I used a team of rotor-w, landorus, bisharp, latios, ferro and keldeo and it was incredibly easy to ladder, but of course I understand that the meta has to settle. I personally do like the idea of slowly introducing lower tier metas, even though that does feel a bit like banning.

The ladder is literally 2 hours old. Give people some time to figure stuff out before just writing it off as boring.

 

[Slowking88]

The ladder is literally 2 hours old. Give people some time to figure stuff out before just writing it off as boring.

Yes I get that, I just forgot to mention it, that's why I already added that to my post, but that does not mean that when a metagame has adapted to deal with very strong pokemon aka the metas, if those are taken away, other pokemon will run rampant. I never called the meta boring, just that I don't like it, I probably should have added the word yet but oh well..

 

[Karxrida]

Yes I get that, I just forgot to mention it, that's why I already added that to my post, but that does not mean that when a metagame has adapted to deal with very strong pokemon aka the metas, if those are taken away, other pokemon will run rampant. I never called the meta boring, just that I don't like it, I probably should have added the word yet but oh well..

You are still judging it based off of a couple hours of experience. Let the meta develop to the point where it has a consistent playerbase and strategies before making any calls on its enjoyability.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

See, I have a question about this. . . I like the idea behind it, I think we can all agree Megas REALLY tilted the metagame, and I personally dislike their inclusion, despite enjoying them as a whole. However, I want to know something, this is an official tier no? Just, without Megas, ezpz, makes sense. However, if something proves to be borked as all hell landorus I'm talking to you would it be dealt with in both tiers, the megaless tier, or what would happen? I'm sure there will be mons that are absolutely ridiculous with the megas gone. Also, if it's also based on usage, I'm sure other Pokemon will rise in usage with certain megas gone, will they become OU, or will their usage mean nothing? It really comes with quite a bit of confusion, at least for me. I'm just curious if this version of OU will hold any substance when looking at "broken" Pokemon and Pokemon rising in usage.

 

[Gary]

Yes I get that, I just forgot to mention it, that's why I already added that to my post, but that does not mean that when a metagame has adapted to deal with very strong pokemon aka the metas, if those are taken away, other pokemon will run rampant. I never called the meta boring, just that I don't like it, I probably should have added the word yet but oh well..

Dude the ladder literally just came out and I'm still seeing people using shit like Gallade, Ambipom, and Beedrill in the top part of the ladder. Judging the metagame this early when a meta hasn't even developed makes literally zero sense. Being #1 in a 2 hour ladder infested with people using extremely gimmicky shit is about as impressive as beating a bunch of ingame teams with a team of Ubers. Just wait until the ladder is coming to a close before judging how diverse/stale a meta is.

 

[MrAldo]

As a guy who always hated the introduction of megas to the metagame in 6th gen, I love this idea. Will certainly try this out, sounds like a pretty lovely experiment. The "You need a mega" comment always gives me a bit of a headache so this is a relief.

 

[SupremeDirt]

My immediate thought is that if this is going to become an official meta Landorus will probably have to go. Knock Off might also be a little overbearing but I can see it being fine tbh, it'll take some time playing with it to see for sure.

So happy this exists now, OU was just getting to the point it was unplayable.

 

[Redolent]

I don't agree with the idea that stall will suffer for this. Yes, it has lost some good options like Mega Sableye/Slowbro/Venu, but it also benefits from a significant reduction in the number of dangerous wallbreakers. The Megas of Gardevoir, Heracross, Pinsir, Charizard X (SD/Outrage variants) & Y, Taunt/Sub Gyara, Houndoom, Medicham, Garchomp and Gallade to some extent are excellent at breaking down defensive cores and can't all be prepared for by any one team.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of great anti-stall mons still around.

 

[AM]

I haven't played enough games to formulate a thorough opinion as of yet but from what I have been able to play in the short time I can tell you that stall is in no way suffering from this to the extent people have described. Knock Off really sucks though in this meta because it's a no opportunity cost move and many of the megas like M-Venusaur use to be used as Knock Off absorbers but this isn't a trait exclusive to megas and I'm positive teams can be built in a way to incorporate natural Knock Off absorbers such as Clefable and Chesnaught. I like the fact that the win conditions aren't so extreme to the point that in 1 turn it's a game changer on the level of say Zard-X or M-Metagross which takes away the intense burden of team-building that was being manifested by all these megas in one tier at a time. Lando-I is a very powerful threat in this meta-game though with access to Knock Off and the already established power it brings to the table so we'll be seeing this a lot on offensive and bulky offense teams.

I feel like building around a win condition requires a bit more effort now, which I prefer in this meta rather than our current ORAS meta where your win-condition in a lot of cases was just a behemoth that blanket checked a portion of the tier by being on the team alone which at times I found a bit unhealthy and somewhat lazy. I can't say for sure that I enjoy this meta as of yet because it's two different metas with different variations of threat control and builds but I do enjoy the concept of this and looking forward to play more games on my free time.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Knock Off looks to be bs but we will have to see. Gothitelle seems even more annoying/broken cos it can just trick shit if mega stones didnt existing and just no skill the fuck out of you. Infact Trick in general too.

Anyway most megas are ridiculous so this pleases me. Their stats are basically that of a psuedo uber pokemon and i dare say they are only ou on the premise they share the same name as Ou and below pokemon. They often have better typing, stats and movepool and abilities than that of ubers. Take Mega metagross for example a 700BST pokemon allowed in OU. Idc that it wasnt banned, but just seriously think about that 700bst and its movepool and abilities. In gen 4 or 5 this thing would have been quick banned never mind suspected and to think mega pokemon like this are now the "norm" and acceptable in ou speaks volumes about the insane power creep which imo is not healthy for balance. Im really looking forward to laddering in this metagame anyway (i havent laddered properly since BW because of the power creep) and imo strives towards a balanced metagame that doesnt force team match ups. Its a great decision and takes into account what most people want in a metagame and i like the fact they can choose which one to play.

 

[Red Cat]

Mega evolutions are the reason why I basically gave up on OU. They are indeed much more powerful than non megas because most of them have the advantage of being really powerful, really fast, and fairly bulky all at the same time without having to worry about LO recoil or being choice locked. If there were no limit on the number of Pokemon you could mega evolve per match, megas would probably make out most of the usage in OU (just look at the viability rankings). The only reason some megas don't see more usage is not because they are bad, but because of the opportunity cost of not being able to use other megas.

Obviously because of what I said above, I am happy to see this ladder. I would like to see this ladder stay no mega rather than reintroduce them, because then it will just end up like the OU ladder if we use the same criteria to determine whether a mega evolution is broken or not. I know Mega Abomasnow sucks and won't make an impact, but why even start going down that road? If things like Landorus and Knock Off have to be banned (obviously the ladder has just started so I'm not suggesting that we suspect them already; I'm just speculating.) to keep the ladder mega free, I'd rather do that than reintroduce megas to try to check those things. Anyway, this ladder sounds like it will be fun in theory because it will be like Gen V except with no weather wars, better hazard removal, and more Pokemon to check Dragon types, which are basically the things most people were asking for at the end of Gen V before the mega evolutions came along and ruined Gen VI at least in my opinion.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

My initial thoughts on this tier are that knock off is overpowered with the major buff it got in gen 6. It has literally become a move anyone can freely spam. However I am excited about thi tier because OU is just getting boring and this can (and is) definitely freshining it up. I honestly would prefer for the tier to remain mega free rather than gradually adding back megas to it.

 

[Disaster Area]

I definitely see this as interesting.

The problems with OU as it stood most probably was the match-up issue, or in essence how you can't cover for every threat that you're realistically going to meet. I think in some sense this is a natural consequence of having sooooo many pokemon available, and the introduction of megas introduced another 20 or so I dunno of a similar power level that meant this issues was really added to.

I don't think this is even meant to solve that issue, it's more to answer the question 'what if', and gives us more data. It lets us see how megas are affecting the metagame as a whole.

[04:22] +KristophV: yeah i have no idea what their endgame really is with the megas thing but
[04:22] +KristophV: yeah i follow
[04:22] ~Piexplode: yeah I think that
[04:22] ~Piexplode: they don't really know
[04:22] ~Piexplode: the 'endgame'
[04:22] ~Piexplode: this is more feeling it out
[04:22] ~Piexplode: at the opposite extreme
[04:22] +KristophV: with the megas thing i almost 'get it'
[04:23] +KristophV: almost in a like, items in smash kind of way
[04:23] +KristophV: where it's such a big and widespread change, you can't help but wonder what it would be like if you 'toggled it off'
[04:23] ~Piexplode: true.. I've not followed smash but I've played the game so I can imagine the scenario

as it is though myself (and my friend) neither of us are particularly OU-playing or particularly good at that but we sorta get what's going on and will follow with curiosity. Although I've quoted them in this it doesn't mean any of the opinions i present outside of the quote represents theirs :x

 

[Swede]

Ok real post time (sorry mods), I think that Bisharp has what it takes to wreack havoc in this metagame. Walls like Mega Sableye and Venu are gone, and three fairy types that were able to beat it 1v1 and usually forced bisharp to use sash to survive (diancie, gardevoir, and Altaria) left. Knock Off is obviously supreme, and the only offensive pokemon I can think of that destroys it on a hard switch is Keldeo.

 

[Red Cat]

Ok real post time (sorry mods), I think that Bisharp has what it takes to wreack havoc in this metagame. Walls like Mega Sableye and Venu are gone, and three fairy types that were able to beat it 1v1 and usually forced bisharp to use sash to survive (diancie, gardevoir, and Altaria) left. Knock Off is obviously supreme, and the only offensive pokemon I can think of that destroys it on a hard switch is Keldeo.

Knock Off is more potent now that it is guaranteed to claim one of your Pokemon's items, but from my experience on the ladder, it isn't a stupidly broken move. People have to remember what Knock Off really is: a 97.5 BP move on the first attack and a 65 BP move after your Pokemon has already lost its item. You just have to carry a Knock Off sponge on your team: a Pokemon which doesn't really need its item to function. Gliscor can activate its Toxic Orb and come in on any Knock Off after that. Terrakion can trade its item for a +1 attack boost. Quagsire doesn't appreciate taking the first Knock Off from Bisharp, but then takes pitiful damage from every Knock Off afterward. I'll try to think of more examples later, but remember that even in OU, at least 5 of the 6 Pokemon on a team don't like losing their item to Knock Off. Some popular mega evolutions are not very good at tanking Knock Off, such as Mega Metagross, but teams with those Pokemon are still able to function. Obviously Knock Off is something you have to prepare for, but it can be done without resorting to gimmicks such as Sticky Hold. As some people before have mentioned, Trick and Switcheroo are perhaps bigger problems than Knock Off because a Pokemon on your team is forced to take the unwanted item.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Knock Off is more potent now that it is guaranteed to claim one of your Pokemon's items, but from my experience on the ladder, it isn't a stupidly broken move. People have to remember what Knock Off really is: a 97.5 BP move on the first attack and a 65 BP move after your Pokemon has already lost its item. You just have to carry a Knock Off sponge on your team: a Pokemon which doesn't really need its item to function. Gliscor can activate its Toxic Orb and come in on any Knock Off after that. Terrakion can trade its item for a +1 attack boost. Quagsire doesn't appreciate taking the first Knock Off from Bisharp, but then takes pitiful damage from every Knock Off afterward. I'll try to think of more examples later, but remember that even in OU, at least 5 of the 6 Pokemon on a team don't like losing their item to Knock Off. Some popular mega evolutions are not very good at tanking Knock Off, such as Mega Metagross, but teams with those Pokemon are still able to function. Obviously Knock Off is something you have to prepare for, but it can be done without resorting to gimmicks such as Sticky Hold. As some people before have mentioned, Trick and Switcheroo are perhaps bigger problems than Knock Off because a Pokemon on your team is forced to take the unwanted item.

I have to agree with this, Knock Off is powerful, but I don't see it as game breaking. Of course, this opinion may change as the meta becomes more define but for now I just see it as a solid move to be wary of.

However, on the subject of Trick and Switcheroo, I have to disagree. Trick and Switcheroo require you to carry an item that is able to cripple another pokemon, limiting options on what you giv ethem, and even then..you might give someone an item they like.

 

[Pendulum Swing]

I'll be honest, i'm really enjoying this new meta,more than the normal oras ou. I have done 15 games and now i think i'm quite good at this. Like Cheek Pouch said it's fantastic spamming knock off with BandCrawdaunt (and with others in general) against lots of switch in like ferrothorn(about 70%), breloom (85%) and a lot of other bulky pokemons that handle water attacks. It's a bit like BW2, but with fairies, defog, and no weather wars. Now there's not a MegaSomething that wrecks your entire team, of course matchup still exist, but now it's not so hard to deal with if you are an average player and you have a good team. I'm really curious to see what is going to happen :3

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

so far ladder has been quite disappointing in its quality.
I've managed to ladder to twelfth with a team with no hazards, not every mon having 4 moves or ev'd. (didn't feel like making a new team so used a rough draft one to test ladder and managed to get quite high.
I've seen several bad rain teams, genie spam, knock off spam, a bunch of teams with pokemon that can mega but with no stone. Also a lot of forfeits.

Honestly i'm just not getting a good representation of what the meta should look like. The few games that i did have that were good I liked not having to worry about some mega behemoth.

Yes I realize this is still quite early, but hopefully ladder quality steps up.

 

[TheTabKey]

So after playing for a while on the ladder it feels like people are just taking their Gen 5 weather teams and adding Klefki lol
Haven't seen many fairies at all except for Azumarill
The Knock Off Spam is real and Crawdaunt is a monster w/ Sticky Web

But the fact that you don't go into battle wondering which Charizard you're facing, which of a few Pokemon is their mega, or wondering how you're going to play around a certain mega Pokemon is wonderful. Every good battle I've had so felt so much more skill dependent than team match up dependent. Unfortunately I'm seeing like the same handful of Pokemon (Bisharp, Keldeo, Landorus, Crawdaunt, Lati@s, and a few others) just with different teams but hopefully it balances out soon. A lot of hyper offense teams as well which gets boring to play against but hopefully that balances out as well.

 

[astroshagger]

Can someone explain to me what the long-term goal of this is? Or rather, can someone explain how it's not just a quick way to suspect every mega that people whine about? I get that the administration doesn't like the M-Meta suspect outcome, but wut? Also, is this something that could potentially supplant the current OU ladder?

To me this is operating under the erroneous assumption that any sort of power creep / mechanical advancement in a game should be resisted. If this ladder proceeds by the methods you outlined above you are 1.) making the game-state more complex by introducing a new tier with a different set of principles and 2.) proceeds to make the game even more restricted for each one of those individual tiers. If you want to make a Mega-less OU tier, that's fine, but slowly re-introducing Megas back in is an extremely long, stilted, and complicated process that is likely to piss a lot of people off (because people like using their favorite mons). How exactly do we go about reintroducing mons? Reverse suspect tests? If people don't like Megas then make a new tier where they aren't allowed instead of sacrificing the current tier which a lot of people are enjoying. Removing megas does not prevent match-up dependence. Look at the current viability rankings right now and observe how many non-Megas saturate the S and A tiers:

Landorus I
Landorus T
Keldeo
Azumarill
Bisharp
Clefable (multiple sets)
Gengar
Gliscor
Heatran
Latios
Latias
Slowbro
Talonflame
Thundurus
Celebi
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Rotom
Tyranitar
Starmie
Scizor

Eliminating megas exacerbates matchup dependence because a lot of pokemon can successfully be used with and without their mega-stones. When you yank away the diversity that MEvos provide as a mechanic, you produce a more linear, less creative, and BORING game. A mega-less meta is a meta characterized and downright defined by discrete threats with little or no variability associated with them. Prepare to see Lando I+T, Azumarill, and Latios on literally every team.

M-Evos are fun and fucking awesome. Why is a community that venerates "making the game fair + fun for everyone" attempting to yank away one of the coolest and most re-invigorating mechanics that has ever been introduced? I have been lurking smogon since 2007 and this is literally the worst idea I have ever seen the Administration entertain let alone actually implement. Pokemon is a game not a math problem that needs to be ruthlessly tested and optimized so please just let us have some fucking fun.

TBH, I'm kinda afraid that the administration is running the whole show while making us believe we have any say in the matter. "You can vote for what you want, as long as you agree with us".

 

[G-Beast]

This sounds like an interesting metagame to play, while I don't use Pokemon Showdown I will certainly be trying it out over wifi and locals.