Good riddance to scald. Everyone vying for Scald is saying "it lets bulky water types get set up on by Mence/Haxorus/Abomasnow/etc." First of all, WHY would a player be bad enough to stay in on one of those mons with ur Suicune or Alomola? They deserve to get up on. Do what GOOD players do, and predict the switch in to the set up mon, and pull a double. Secondly, the game being decided because your Suicune got a lucky burn on the Haxorus while he was setting up, is not the kind of game that promotes winning due to skill and prediction and thinking long term. I went though a ton of the league matches recently, and the amount of EVERY game just being Keldeo spamming Scald wars vs Slowbro Scald wars vs Groudon Lava Plume wars, vs Ho Oh Sacred Fire wars, vs Heatran Lava Plume wars, makes league matches awful. Special Attackers are NOT switch ins. A special attacker with life orb (say, Latios) does not appreciate losing 1/4 of their health every time they attack, just because they got an unlucky burn on the Scald switch in. Why do you see Keldeo's constantly scalding the Lati switch ins instead of us just doubling into their Heatran/Ttar/Ferro? Even if Scald doesn't decide games, it does make games considerably harder for the players who got first-turn burned when it shouldn't.
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No Scald Ladder
- Thread starter Sam
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Or you could just start early, they do give ample enough time, and get reqs from there rather than rushing it minutes to midnight XD That way you can pace yourself in how many wins or losses per day you can handle.
Only replying to this point because the other ones are fine.
This is a pretty shitty argument against scald, equating its 30% chance of burning is entirely different to an OHKO's move chance of straight fainting a mon. OHKO moves meant a scarf articuno could sweep your team in 6 turns if you were unlucky enough. Scald burns (while still really dumb) will almost never have as big an impact on the battle as landing an OHKO move.
Alright, I guess the weirdest thing to me is that UU is the meta game that decided to look into scald first, because, of all the meta games I've played, it is the easiest to fit a dedicated response to scald on any given team (maybe barring Suicune, but I'll get into that latter). There are a huge number of Pokemon in the UU meta game that absolutely don't care about switching into scald, and some number that even punish the scald user for using it too liberally. Meta relevant threats that fall into this category include Heracross (guts), Machamp (guts), Vaporeon (water absorb), Toxicroak (water absorb), Shaymin (grass-type, natural cure), Roserade (grass-type, natural cure), and Reuniclus (magic guard). That list includes things that benefit from or don't care about scald burns, and doesn't even account for Special attacking water resists (such as Hydreigon or Rotom-C) that while they don't appreciate the residual burn damage, they appreciate the chance to switch in and fire off nukes. Given the fact that there is such a diverse selection of Pokemon fitting on every play style from Stall to Hyper Offense (and that doesn't even include clerics that can fit on the bulkier playstyles), it is pretty clear, at least imo, that scald is not broken in UU. The only thing that gets kind of shaky when switching into scald is if the user is Suicune. But this is due to the fact that it is capable of running moves like Ice Beam and Extrasensory to deal with potential Scald switch ins. Other Bulky Waters don't really have this option given their low offensive pressure, so the only Pokemon that really makes Scald more difficult to account for in team building is Suicune (I don't think Suicune is broken, I just think its better than other bulky waters, lol).
So that leaves the option of Scald being uncompetitive if it were going to be suspected / banned. I really don't agree with this either (although this is a little more subjective to be fair). Comparing Scald to moves previously banned for being uncompetitive, that leaves OHKO moves and the more recently banned Swagger, Scald doesn't really fit into this category (imo). Swagger, for example, was a move that had a 50% chance of giving the abuser a free turn, and given it was commonly used by Prankster Pokemon with Foul Play also had priority, and also doubled as a Swords Dance for their damaging attack. I don't think Swagger and Scald are comparable due to the fact that Swagger is pretty clearly much more uncompetitive then Scald (higher rate of negative effect and the other effects). So that leaves Scald vs. OHKO moves, which I also think aren't truly all that comparable. While its true that both moves have a 30% chance for the negative side affect to kick in, there is a huge difference between a Pokemon being burned and a Pokemon being dead. Aside from the fact that the only counter play to OHKO moves are Sturdy users, a much more limited, and a much less diverse group then the group mentioned in the first paragraph, there is also the fact that a dead Pokemon is much more serious than a burned one (burn doesn't even cripple half of the mons, they can run lum berry, etc.). At the end of the day Scald is just one of those moves that has a 30% chance to status a Pokemon, with a key difference of hitting the switch in super effectively (unlike Lava Plume), I don't really see this as uncompetitive so much as just a really strong move that Pokemon should be using if access to it (like Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Baton Pass in some cases, etc.).
I think that the ladder is definitely going to be interesting, and I have no problem with UU looking to explore a meta game without scald, just as last generation there was an OU ladder with no Stealth Rock. I really hope UU decides not to suspect / ban Scald at the end of the day, but I may try my hand at the ladder to see what the meta game looks like w/o scald. :o
So that leaves the option of Scald being uncompetitive if it were going to be suspected / banned. I really don't agree with this either (although this is a little more subjective to be fair). Comparing Scald to moves previously banned for being uncompetitive, that leaves OHKO moves and the more recently banned Swagger, Scald doesn't really fit into this category (imo). Swagger, for example, was a move that had a 50% chance of giving the abuser a free turn, and given it was commonly used by Prankster Pokemon with Foul Play also had priority, and also doubled as a Swords Dance for their damaging attack. I don't think Swagger and Scald are comparable due to the fact that Swagger is pretty clearly much more uncompetitive then Scald (higher rate of negative effect and the other effects). So that leaves Scald vs. OHKO moves, which I also think aren't truly all that comparable. While its true that both moves have a 30% chance for the negative side affect to kick in, there is a huge difference between a Pokemon being burned and a Pokemon being dead. Aside from the fact that the only counter play to OHKO moves are Sturdy users, a much more limited, and a much less diverse group then the group mentioned in the first paragraph, there is also the fact that a dead Pokemon is much more serious than a burned one (burn doesn't even cripple half of the mons, they can run lum berry, etc.). At the end of the day Scald is just one of those moves that has a 30% chance to status a Pokemon, with a key difference of hitting the switch in super effectively (unlike Lava Plume), I don't really see this as uncompetitive so much as just a really strong move that Pokemon should be using if access to it (like Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Baton Pass in some cases, etc.).
I think that the ladder is definitely going to be interesting, and I have no problem with UU looking to explore a meta game without scald, just as last generation there was an OU ladder with no Stealth Rock. I really hope UU decides not to suspect / ban Scald at the end of the day, but I may try my hand at the ladder to see what the meta game looks like w/o scald. :o
252+ Atk Choice Band Trevenant Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 374-444 (92.5 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
cb trevenant isnt bad either
You read that wrong, I'm not getting swept by them but I find it annoying, i run HO myself and other types, the tier is ok but there are a los of physicall attacker spam it is ridiculous
Trev gets natural cure so it doesn't really care about scald burns anyway. The band set has other issues like being sloooow and shadow claw being pretty weak even with a band.
I think he cares more about burns because it affects his ability to scare out Water-types like Shaymin and Roserade can do. Yes, he can switch out to cure the burn, but that doesn't help when he's in on them WITH a burn and Wood Hammer isn't netting the KOs it needs to net.
Scald doesn't hurt UU. On the contrary, it helps to make UU more interesting by adding in an extra aspect. By being afraid of scald burns, players have to think and plan ahead more for mons that burns cripple. In addition, as other people have mentioned in this thread, there are many mons in UU that can safely switch into scald. Without scald, I feel that UU would be more stale as a tier.
Can you justify that or give more concrete evidence as to why you believe that? I personally believe that a scald-less tier would open up a lot more opportunities for offensive mons to shine (stuff like Haxorus, Feraligatr, Virizion, Salamence, and Mega Swampert) which wouldn't be able to before. When is the last time you saw a Haxorus on the ladder? Personally, I see one maybe 1 out of every 50 games; in a scald-less metagame, pokemon that previously got bullshitted out of setting up on a resisted water move from a defensive pokemon can setup on those pokemon and force the other person to play smarter. I think if anything, a metagame without scald would be less stale and open up more opportunities for lesser-used pokemon to shine.
Also, I don't really understand the first part of your statement. "By being afraid of scald burns, players have to think and plan ahead more for mons that burns cripple." What does that mean? I assume it means that by being afraid of burns, the players have to consider that switching a Salamence into a scald from a Suicune could be a risky venture because they might be burned. However, the "planning ahead" argument loses its merit when you consider that without scald play would be much more thought-out and well planned. Instead of just clicking scald and crippling the other team, sometimes burning something that would otherwise sweep late-game, players have to plan out what they are going to do and should the situation arise where the player has a Vaporeon in against a Mega Abomasnow that can setup an SD, the player can't just mindlessly click Scald and burn the Mega Abomasnow and revenge kill it with something that could live an Ice Shard at neutral but not at +2.
tl;dr: scald is a move which creates less diversity in the metagame, centralizing around these so-called "bulky-waters", while removing it creates smarter and more well-thought out play in the long run.
Haxorus not being seen in UU is more due to it being outclassed by Salamence. It's speed leaves it outsped by other UU threats as well. I wouldn't say Haxorus' lack of presence is due to scald (which it can run a lum berry for) but because of other mons that threaten it's position. For your second argument, you could reason that for sacred fire as well. I understand what you mean, but I still feel that scald isn't hurting the UU metagame.
In the no scald tier, bulky waters are not as common making stuff like maero darmanitan and feraligator really good atm. This is really fun... for now but I dont believe this will be healthy in the uu tier and for smogon as a whole. Hikari this would be fun as a random tour in uu but this can not become a pernament thing. Banning scald is banning the prevelancy of bulky waters. Have you ever seen the disney movie Heracles? Remember all those demons in the lightning jail? Pretent Zeus is the bulky water types. If we ban zues, all the monsters get out and ruin the earth. So many things become op with no scald. We become a whole new meta which means more bans and more suspect tests. Well, that doesnt sound too bad but the point is not what this does to uu meta but what it does to smogon. We ban scald then pu bans knock off then lc bans eviolite then ru bans choice scarf then hackmons bans wonder guard. Wow all this sounds really fun but for how long? We can start something way bigger than we thought and its not healthy. We have counters to bulky waters. Sure they are annoying but they are not unfair.
Earlier in the thread there was some discussion whether we should ban other stuff like sacred fire, steam eruption, and even wil o wisp. Banning wil o wisp is just plain stupid because we have plenty of stuff that can deal with it. As Hikari stated earlier, sacred fire and steam eruption are not common and if they were, then this scald thing would be the least of our problems. If sacred fire was really op then entei would be banned... but its not. Scald is really unique in the sense that what ever cant get burned takes super effective damage from it. Its a rotom wash in a move. Rrotom wash is really really good at doing what it does but it will never be banned because its not op. Its just really annoying. We have banned stuff that is really annoying in the past; swagger, multiple baton passes, evasion. Do these things out rank scald? Absolutely! We dont have a lot of anti confusion tactics, not every team should have roar, and we dont have a good pokemon move that always hits that exceeds 60 base power... except vital throw i think. These annoying things were banned because we didnt have enough resources to keep them at bay. With scald we do. We have water absorb, natural cure, and dry skin. Plus most grass and electric pokemon are special attackers. To be honest, I dont care if scald gets banned. Im scared of what may go with it. Ou is already following in our footsteps. Whats stopping smogon from an overconstricting rebirth?
Summary: I believe no scald uu should be a special fun tour thing and not something for a pokemon tier.
Earlier in the thread there was some discussion whether we should ban other stuff like sacred fire, steam eruption, and even wil o wisp. Banning wil o wisp is just plain stupid because we have plenty of stuff that can deal with it. As Hikari stated earlier, sacred fire and steam eruption are not common and if they were, then this scald thing would be the least of our problems. If sacred fire was really op then entei would be banned... but its not. Scald is really unique in the sense that what ever cant get burned takes super effective damage from it. Its a rotom wash in a move. Rrotom wash is really really good at doing what it does but it will never be banned because its not op. Its just really annoying. We have banned stuff that is really annoying in the past; swagger, multiple baton passes, evasion. Do these things out rank scald? Absolutely! We dont have a lot of anti confusion tactics, not every team should have roar, and we dont have a good pokemon move that always hits that exceeds 60 base power... except vital throw i think. These annoying things were banned because we didnt have enough resources to keep them at bay. With scald we do. We have water absorb, natural cure, and dry skin. Plus most grass and electric pokemon are special attackers. To be honest, I dont care if scald gets banned. Im scared of what may go with it. Ou is already following in our footsteps. Whats stopping smogon from an overconstricting rebirth?
Summary: I believe no scald uu should be a special fun tour thing and not something for a pokemon tier.
Removing Scald doesn't lower the viability of bulky waters in this aspect. The meta still needs time to adapt and will likely have water mons resurface in order to keep dealing with Darm, Entei, etc.
As is reinforced in every suspect test thread. Broken things keeping broken things in check does not constitute a balanced metagame.
Slippery slope logical fallacy, try again.
Sacred Fire is a really fucking good move. If it was widespread it would be getting a similar treatment as Scald most likely. As it stands, three pokemon learn Sacred Fire. One is BL, albeit for different reasons, one is uber and really fucking good because Sacred Fire is physical now, and one is our beloved Entei who is one of the best mons in UU because of Sacred Fire.
The issue arises when important matches are determined from dodging 10 Scald burns in a row or from landing 10 Scald burns in a row. The debilitating effect of the move has been a critical factor in deciding many tournament and high level matches. The threat of switching anything aside from your own water-type into a Scald prevents a lot of different options in game and often leads to cases where whoever burns whom first is in a ridiculously favorable position.
Again, slippery slope is not a good way to phrase your argument. Smogon as an entity isn't deciding what is and isn't banned, they provide the means for the general populace to decide.
Also, it's not a fucking suspect test. Stop treating it like it is.
After playing some games on the ladder, I have to say I vastly prefer this meta without Scald to the one with it. A few threats like Gatr and Mence do seem a bit more prominent now, but it's not like Scald was reliably keeping any of them in check in the first place. If anything it just means they don't have to run Lum or try to play around a 30% chance anymore. I'm wondering what other people are using to stop Feraligatr now, in particular. It doesn't seem to have very many solid answers that aren't exploitable with slight movepool changes, especially now that it can pretty much set up for free on most bulky waters without needing to risk a burn or use Substitute. All in all, I think this is a very neat idea and I'm really enjoying the extra freedom in playing and teambuilding.
Too busy to check this thread for one day and stuff like CB Trev and references to Greek Mythology start to emerge...
But, I think as far as Scald goes, the meta would shift completely from a bulky water/bulky offensive meta it has established itself as for a good part of XY/ORAS to a more HO/ bulky steels,fairies and water types. HO is obviously more prevalent due to no Scald Burns, so you start to see more boosting mons and Life Orb > Lum Berry. So, the meta will become more offensive to say the least. On the defensive side, you need a more solid answer to these boosters. Aromatisse, Granbull, Mega Aggron, Florges, Doublade, etc.. will rise up. Bulky Waters will still have their niches (CroCune, Support Tenta/Empleon, Wish Passing Alo, etc...), but they are not able to stand up to physical attackers as easily (especially in the case of our support mons) thanks to loss of Scald.
As somebody said before, Scald is one of the best tools for bulky waters for the combined effects of decent power BP and that key 30% chance to burn, and it assists them in checking more stronger threats. But, broken things shouldn't check broken things.
But, I think it's the heyday for dragons in this ladder. We've seen the heavy dragon era before and the checks/counters that we had before are, for the most part, still relevant. I'm more concerned for Feraligatr tbh....
But, I think as far as Scald goes, the meta would shift completely from a bulky water/bulky offensive meta it has established itself as for a good part of XY/ORAS to a more HO/ bulky steels,fairies and water types. HO is obviously more prevalent due to no Scald Burns, so you start to see more boosting mons and Life Orb > Lum Berry. So, the meta will become more offensive to say the least. On the defensive side, you need a more solid answer to these boosters. Aromatisse, Granbull, Mega Aggron, Florges, Doublade, etc.. will rise up. Bulky Waters will still have their niches (CroCune, Support Tenta/Empleon, Wish Passing Alo, etc...), but they are not able to stand up to physical attackers as easily (especially in the case of our support mons) thanks to loss of Scald.
As somebody said before, Scald is one of the best tools for bulky waters for the combined effects of decent power BP and that key 30% chance to burn, and it assists them in checking more stronger threats. But, broken things shouldn't check broken things.
But, I think it's the heyday for dragons in this ladder. We've seen the heavy dragon era before and the checks/counters that we had before are, for the most part, still relevant. I'm more concerned for Feraligatr tbh....
It would be cool if Gamefreak made it so that water types couldn't be burned by scald. That way the move would still retain its power and overall annoyance but it would be much less "herp derp" and would promote actual thinking during a match because your opponent has a scald switch in that can't get burned and crippled. Considering they made this change with electric types and paralysis, it doesn't seem too far-fetched or illogical.
Probably just wishful thinking though, Gamefreak and logic aren't things that go together more often than not.
Edit: Forgot to mention, water types would still get burned by will o. Just not scald.
Probably just wishful thinking though, Gamefreak and logic aren't things that go together more often than not.
Edit: Forgot to mention, water types would still get burned by will o. Just not scald.
Im just glad you read the whole thing. Sorry for all the slippery slope. The reason I dont want this to go to the general populace is becsuse they vote for what ever satisfies them rught now. They dont think about long term no scald. They think, "I just lost a win condition to a scald burn, scan bald!" Im just trying to say what might happen if it goes to a vote. People on the forums are not the majority. And yes I am taking this like a suspect test. Im trying to establish creative thought in the readers so they dont automatically think they will ban scald if it ever comes to that.
A lot of people keep referencing Sacred Fire as being comparable to Scald, but let's not forget that Fire types being immune to burn as well as resistant to Sacred Fire makes them a pretty safe switch in to a predicted Sacred Fire from Entei. Of course you might have to dance around its coverage but that's the same for any offensive mon. Scald on the other hand hits the one type that would be immune to it's side effect SE, meaning the number of pokemon that can switch in to it with 0 fear is incredibly limited and is what makes it so ridiculously spammable. I'm not saying everyone runs Fire types to switch into Sacred Fire or w/e but I just wanted to point out that this is what I find to be potentially uncompetitive about Scald compared to all the other 30% or higher moves, without a Water immunity or some way of negating burn, there is literally no mon that appreciates switching into it. This has probably already been said somewhere but I've seen quite a few mentions of Sacred Fire in the last couple of pages I've read so just wanted to make what I feel is the difference clear.
Glad we can experiment with things like this!
He hit the vr part right on the nail lol
Anyways, i've seen some arguments that really seem to be jumping the gun. First of all, we all need to remember that this ladder is here to probe at potential impacts if scald were to get banned. Instead of just stating unnecessary shit about Scald that every fucking person in the pokemon community knows about (not just the uu folks, because this is a widespread issue), we need to instead . Whether this takes another week or another ~2 months for this ladder to figure this shit out, then we can figure out as a community whether removing scald from this metagame (and ru/nu/pu) will ultimately make things much healthier for the communities as opposed to keeping scald here. Right now I am just not seeing a proper ground as to make these judgments, and that's me standing on the sidelines here.
We'd also like to see some valued input from the lower tier folks on what will happen to those metagames since our ultimate decision will most definitely cause a significant impact on those metagames.
Just like usage is not considered a valid argument when discussing a potential ban, distribution should not be considered either. If mons like Suicune or Swampert are too good with Scald, then ban them. If the next best thing that learns Scald is still too good, then ban that too. The issue here isn't the move itself, but the fact that many bulky water types learn it. If Shift Gear was suddenly handed over every good steel type, would that make the move broken, or said steel types? KlinkKlang is perfectly manageable with SG, so I guess it's the latter, just like Protean Keckleon is fine but Protean Greninja is broken, and so on.
LMAO, inb4 NO TOXIC and NO SUBSTITUTE. Cos this seems like it is going to Suspect Ladder XD
No. Scald is in no way "too good". Scald is being evaluated because it has the ability to force gamebreaking luck in a way no other move does. In that sense, distribution does matter - if Lava Plume burns / not burns became sole difference in multiple high-leverage battles, then they would be looked at as well. Degree matters; Swagger was banned, but Confuse Ray is still allowed, due to the former's greater omnipresence as well as the difference in mechanics (I consider the +2 attack boost with Swagger comparable to the fact Scald gets super-effective damage on the sole type which cannot be burned). I don't like the arguments "you cant ban a move!" and "hax is part of pokemon!"; both are false. Moves have been banned, particularly when they cause gamebreaking luck. What makes Scald interesting is using it reflects a conscious decision on the part of the player to attempt to garner hax. Nearly all (all?) Pokemon with Scald get Surf, a move with similarly perfect accuracy and higher base power. There's no reason to use Scald over Surf aside from the chance to burn. Therefore, I think it's appropriate to view Scald as an inherently luck-based move - it's only value is found in the 30% burn chance. From that standpoint, the question needs to be: "Does Scald force an unreasonable number of game-deciding luck scenarios?" This factors in the entire spectrum of the move: which mons use it, which mons are unaffected by it, which (and how common are) situations would a Scald burn constitutes an undue factor of luck (that decides the outcome) in a UU game. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong btw but it just seems to me people are arguing over the validity of even looking at Scald, instead of examining / debating if the move itself is uncompetitive due to luck.QueenOfHax said:
In NU, Scald is not really a problem because every team has something that can switch into it. Water Absorb/Storm Drain users are common, but even Flareon can take many scalds and so can Vileplume or Roselia. And then I'm not talking about Gurdurr, which is a huge threat in NU and you really do not want that mofo to get a Guts boost, because if your Psychic-type runs Psyshock (for Hariyama, which also has Guts but often runs Thick Fat), Gurdurr sets up all over it if your name isn't Xatu and then proceeds to sweep.
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