I could see it going to S-. Soul Dew makes them stupidly strong/bulky and serve as a check to numerous threats in the Ubers metagame.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PISTOLERO
- Start date
- Status
Reffrey
Banned deucer.
Whoa guys. Kick flyceus back up to C. It works better than steel and psychic arceus forms. Bird spam is nice. So what if salamence and ho-oh do it better. I've seen decent teams with flyceus, and it is a nice calm mind user. With high bulk and some special attk evs it can set up some calm minds and sweep with its stab judgment. It can also have recover + refresh. Ik I've mentioned this before. Pretty much a garbage mon but better than C- rank. Honestly I'm tired of talking about flyceus though.
Because of Ho-oh and Salamence doing it better Arceus flying is D ranked, that's where outclassed become go.
You're not bringing up any arguments you're just saying you think they deserve the rank, also don't double post
Arceus-Flying isn't D ranked it's C- ranked. You must have gotten confused with arceus-fire.
Reffrey
Banned deucer.
Sorry dude I was typing that in school on my kindle and I only had 1% battery on it. Didn't have time to bring up arguments.
Why is this thing ranked exactly? If Gothitelle had been taken off the list, then it's only fair to take this thing off as well. In addition to the problems Goth faced which was that there was really nothing left to trap anymore, Wobbufett also suffers from the fact that it can't do jack shit to pokes like Mega Diancie (Has to play a guessing game for what move its going to use since Encore won't work, and it is also setup bait for sets that use Calm Mind) and if it hasn't gotten Safeguard up, it is completely shut down by any form of Residual damage, just about any Wall with Toxic. It's completely outclassed by Mega Gengar, who is not a pokemon who heavily relies on what the opponent wants to use first as a move, and can actually do stuff to the pokes I just mentioned and can actually do damage to some Ghost types
I agree Gengar is a better trapper and all, but saying Wobbufett is outclassed by it technically isn't true thanks to the opportunity cost to using Mega Gengar due to it taking up a Mega slot. Admittedly it's a small niche, but is an important one as it forms part of the reason ever to use Wobbufett at all, particularly as it allows you to use something like Salamence or Blaziken which incidentally are two more mons that just love a free turn to start setting up and sweeping house.Wobbufett B --> C-/Unranked (Former only if latter is impossible to do right now)
Why is this thing ranked exactly? If Gothitelle had been taken off the list, then it's only fair to take this thing off as well. In addition to the problems Goth faced which was that there was really nothing left to trap anymore, Wobbufett also suffers from the fact that it can't do jack shit to pokes like Mega Diancie (Has to play a guessing game for what move its going to use since Encore won't work, and it is also setup bait for sets that use Calm Mind) and if it hasn't gotten Safeguard up, it is completely shut down by any form of Residual damage, just about any Wall with Toxic. It's completely outclassed by Mega Gengar, who is not a pokemon who heavily relies on what the opponent wants to use first as a move, and can actually do stuff to the pokes I just mentioned and can actually do damage to some Ghost types
hi i'm better at this tier than I am at XY so i'll actually comment after playing in SPL
Wobbuffet from B to B+
This thing is absolutely ridiculous on offense, especially with Mega Mence. If Wobb gets in on support Arceus, CM Arceus, etc. they have the choice of attacking and dying or spamming Recover / Defog / Calm Mind and turning themselves into set-up bait. Early game, Mence can use the free set-up to blow holes into Tina-O / Groudon / etc, and mid to late game it can use them to sweep. Since heavy offense often doesn't use a scarfer, strong opposing scarfers can be very problematic. Wobb fixes any worried about being cleaned up by Scarf Xerneas, Genesect (lol), or what have you. It's also an excellent Mewtwo check, a Pokemon that was underused in SPL due to opportunity cost but is still an extremely good and versatile Pokemon that can terrorize most offensive teams. I know Dice likes Custap, but Leftovers is perfectly viable if you want an extra set-up opportunity in exchange for a potential clutch late-game Destiny Bond or Encore. I used Wobb + Mence twice in SPL vs. mm2 and Problems, and they did severe damage vs both teams before Wobb was frozen by Ice Beam. Excellent Pokemon, I cannot believe some are seriously pushing for C+ or below.
Mega Aerodactyl from C+ to B-
This has a very clear niche on HO hazard stacking teams from checking Ho-Oh once, revenging mm2y and many Scarf users, and by far most importantly getting both SR and Defog on the same set. It's not a great Mence check by any means but at least it cannot set up on you! It isn't outclassed at all in its role, which is why I argue for B- instead of C+, although Aero isn't gonna fit onto anything that isn't HO so I won't argue for B. It also revenged weakened EKiller since they are usually Jolly and take good damage from Stone Edge, so there's that. Aero bops Diancie with Earthquake, but gets smashed by Sableye unfortunately.
Forretress from C to B-
Already talked about this, but it's a good lead despite being terrified of Darkrai. Most Taunt users despise Gyro Ball (Mewtwo / Deo-S / Aero) and like Aero, it can beat 1 out of the 2 viable Magic Bounce users. Custap Berry FTW.
Alomomola from Unranked to C-
I brought offense during SPL because I didn't want my games to drag on for very long, but anyone who playtested with me knows I like Stall quite a bit in ORAS. Alomomola is an excellent Ho-Oh switchin (since phys def Toxic is not relevant at all in this meta) that can pass giant Wishes to its teammates. It also gets Knock Off to aggravate STAG users, particularly Gengar switches. You should still use this with a Flying resist bc Brave Bird pressures it immensely, and this struggles to wall Salamence since they often carry Refresh. This also annoys Life Orb Extremekiller, Primal Groudon, Kangaskhan, and to a much lesser extent SD Groundceus. It's sorta decent in a physically oriented metagame, but struggles to fit Scald onto its moveset bc it needs Toxic, and is obviously set-up bait for a fair number of Pokemon. It's viable though. Dice if you read this, FUCK YOU lol this is getting ranked.
Mega Kangaskhan from B+ to C+
OK sorry Dice, that was uncalled for. I'll apologize by arguing for Kanga's demotion. What niche does Kanga fulfill in this metagame??? Aero has SR + Defog, Mega Gengar has Shadow Tag, Sableye and Diancie have Magic Bounce, Mewtwo X and Y are both still deadly as hell and provide great speed, coverage, and potential set-up opportunities for Xern etc. with Taunt, Scizor gives Stall teams a Pursuit user and Xern revenge killer, and Mega Salamence is rather good. Even Blaziken is pretty cool with HP Ice, it can lure and kill things just like Kanga can and gets Speed Boost to pull off cleans, something Kanga will never do. Sorry, but spamming Fake Out and hitting fairly hard with normal STAB isn't enough for this to be B+, especially with its embarrassing lack of synergy. It's countered by a great Pokemon (Ghost Arceus), has severe 4MSS, and is vulnerable to Rocky Helmet shenanigans. Most important, Kangaskhan does not hit hard enough to overloads Extremekiller's checks, which is the main reason why you'd use it. Lugia, phys def Yveltal, Ghost Arceus, defensive Salamence, etc will stonewall this mon unless you get exceptionally lucky with crits or Crunch defense drops. IDK why you'd ever use this on balance with the terrible defensive typing it offers, but SPL All Star Steelphoenix can defend this if he wants. Fake Out is nice when you face the sample team I guess, but Sableye is a better anti-sample team mon anyway. This Pokemon is mediocre.
I'd also move the following, though fell less passionately about them:
Greninja down from C+ to C (dice and I determined that forry is usually better)
Palkia down from B+ to B (VERY dangerous Pokemon, but I tried my ass off trying to make a team where it fit and never did...hardly checks any top threats)
Heatran down from C to Unranked (seriously i'd use Omastar before this, what the hell is it reliably checking besides fucking CM Fairyceus? Hack and Dice also hate this.)
Aegislash down from B to B- (slightly overrated as a Pursuit trapper, Problems doesn't like it either, Gengar can still beat you or severely hurt you with Hypnosis / Shadow Ball / the rare Will-O-Wisp and I'd rather use Scizor than Aegislash 95% of the time despite the opportunity cost of using a Mega. Also Primal Groudon exists now)
Wobbuffet from B to B+
This thing is absolutely ridiculous on offense, especially with Mega Mence. If Wobb gets in on support Arceus, CM Arceus, etc. they have the choice of attacking and dying or spamming Recover / Defog / Calm Mind and turning themselves into set-up bait. Early game, Mence can use the free set-up to blow holes into Tina-O / Groudon / etc, and mid to late game it can use them to sweep. Since heavy offense often doesn't use a scarfer, strong opposing scarfers can be very problematic. Wobb fixes any worried about being cleaned up by Scarf Xerneas, Genesect (lol), or what have you. It's also an excellent Mewtwo check, a Pokemon that was underused in SPL due to opportunity cost but is still an extremely good and versatile Pokemon that can terrorize most offensive teams. I know Dice likes Custap, but Leftovers is perfectly viable if you want an extra set-up opportunity in exchange for a potential clutch late-game Destiny Bond or Encore. I used Wobb + Mence twice in SPL vs. mm2 and Problems, and they did severe damage vs both teams before Wobb was frozen by Ice Beam. Excellent Pokemon, I cannot believe some are seriously pushing for C+ or below.
Mega Aerodactyl from C+ to B-
This has a very clear niche on HO hazard stacking teams from checking Ho-Oh once, revenging mm2y and many Scarf users, and by far most importantly getting both SR and Defog on the same set. It's not a great Mence check by any means but at least it cannot set up on you! It isn't outclassed at all in its role, which is why I argue for B- instead of C+, although Aero isn't gonna fit onto anything that isn't HO so I won't argue for B. It also revenged weakened EKiller since they are usually Jolly and take good damage from Stone Edge, so there's that. Aero bops Diancie with Earthquake, but gets smashed by Sableye unfortunately.
Forretress from C to B-
Already talked about this, but it's a good lead despite being terrified of Darkrai. Most Taunt users despise Gyro Ball (Mewtwo / Deo-S / Aero) and like Aero, it can beat 1 out of the 2 viable Magic Bounce users. Custap Berry FTW.
Alomomola from Unranked to C-
I brought offense during SPL because I didn't want my games to drag on for very long, but anyone who playtested with me knows I like Stall quite a bit in ORAS. Alomomola is an excellent Ho-Oh switchin (since phys def Toxic is not relevant at all in this meta) that can pass giant Wishes to its teammates. It also gets Knock Off to aggravate STAG users, particularly Gengar switches. You should still use this with a Flying resist bc Brave Bird pressures it immensely, and this struggles to wall Salamence since they often carry Refresh. This also annoys Life Orb Extremekiller, Primal Groudon, Kangaskhan, and to a much lesser extent SD Groundceus. It's sorta decent in a physically oriented metagame, but struggles to fit Scald onto its moveset bc it needs Toxic, and is obviously set-up bait for a fair number of Pokemon. It's viable though. Dice if you read this, FUCK YOU lol this is getting ranked.
Mega Kangaskhan from B+ to C+
OK sorry Dice, that was uncalled for. I'll apologize by arguing for Kanga's demotion. What niche does Kanga fulfill in this metagame??? Aero has SR + Defog, Mega Gengar has Shadow Tag, Sableye and Diancie have Magic Bounce, Mewtwo X and Y are both still deadly as hell and provide great speed, coverage, and potential set-up opportunities for Xern etc. with Taunt, Scizor gives Stall teams a Pursuit user and Xern revenge killer, and Mega Salamence is rather good. Even Blaziken is pretty cool with HP Ice, it can lure and kill things just like Kanga can and gets Speed Boost to pull off cleans, something Kanga will never do. Sorry, but spamming Fake Out and hitting fairly hard with normal STAB isn't enough for this to be B+, especially with its embarrassing lack of synergy. It's countered by a great Pokemon (Ghost Arceus), has severe 4MSS, and is vulnerable to Rocky Helmet shenanigans. Most important, Kangaskhan does not hit hard enough to overloads Extremekiller's checks, which is the main reason why you'd use it. Lugia, phys def Yveltal, Ghost Arceus, defensive Salamence, etc will stonewall this mon unless you get exceptionally lucky with crits or Crunch defense drops. IDK why you'd ever use this on balance with the terrible defensive typing it offers, but SPL All Star Steelphoenix can defend this if he wants. Fake Out is nice when you face the sample team I guess, but Sableye is a better anti-sample team mon anyway. This Pokemon is mediocre.
I'd also move the following, though fell less passionately about them:
Greninja down from C+ to C (dice and I determined that forry is usually better)
Palkia down from B+ to B (VERY dangerous Pokemon, but I tried my ass off trying to make a team where it fit and never did...hardly checks any top threats)
Heatran down from C to Unranked (seriously i'd use Omastar before this, what the hell is it reliably checking besides fucking CM Fairyceus? Hack and Dice also hate this.)
Aegislash down from B to B- (slightly overrated as a Pursuit trapper, Problems doesn't like it either, Gengar can still beat you or severely hurt you with Hypnosis / Shadow Ball / the rare Will-O-Wisp and I'd rather use Scizor than Aegislash 95% of the time despite the opportunity cost of using a Mega. Also Primal Groudon exists now)
diancie master race^
I'm gonna go ahead and nominate Deoxys for Chansey Rank and Arceus-Ice for B-.
Deoxys: I mean, it's completely and utterly outclassed, which is in accordance with the description of "Chansey rank". With what Sweep posted above, it's only "niche" (which, let's be honest, was nigh-on irrelevant then and is even more irrelevant now) is gone, and there is absolutely 0 reason to use it over Deoxys-S/A.
Arceus-Ice: It fits better within the confines of "B" rank than "C". As we talked about in the Ubers chat, it has the legitimate niche of bringing a check to Salamence on more offensive, fast paced teams, yet still requires a degree of team support. Other than that, it has a harding hitting, 100% accurate ice stab, which is offensively spectacular in this meta. I think it's at least as good as Greninja, who we've got slotted in there.
Deoxys: I mean, it's completely and utterly outclassed, which is in accordance with the description of "Chansey rank". With what Sweep posted above, it's only "niche" (which, let's be honest, was nigh-on irrelevant then and is even more irrelevant now) is gone, and there is absolutely 0 reason to use it over Deoxys-S/A.
Arceus-Ice: It fits better within the confines of "B" rank than "C". As we talked about in the Ubers chat, it has the legitimate niche of bringing a check to Salamence on more offensive, fast paced teams, yet still requires a degree of team support. Other than that, it has a harding hitting, 100% accurate ice stab, which is offensively spectacular in this meta. I think it's at least as good as Greninja, who we've got slotted in there.
Chansey Rank is for non ubers only, we can't rank Deoxys that even if we wanted to, also nice double post
where does it say that? and double posting is what all the cool kids do
I don't remember when, but I believe Fireburn once said that D rank was for ubers that where shit and Chansey Rank was for non ubers that where shit
A rule like this doesn't make any sense to me. The point of the viability ranks is to measure the viability of Pokemon and generally speaking, what tier the Pokemon is doesn't matter in this equation. If Deoxys-N is just as bad as chansey, then it should be ranked the same rank as it, not receive a slightly higher rank just because its Uber.
From what I understand, D rank is for Uber monster that has no point in using (because they are COMPLETELY outclassed by something else in Uber), but they are still Uber because they break OU. And Chansey rank is for monsters that are NOT Uber, is again completely outclassed and no point in using, yet still miraculously see usage on the ladder. Simply put, monsters in both ranks should never be used, just that their identity (read: tier) are different.
Edit: The current D rank description should probably change from "barely viable" to something like "not viable despite Uber in ID"
Again, I don't see the point of having two separate ranks when they basically describe the same thing. The fact is that in both cases, the mon is trash and should never be used and tier placement won't change that.
there seems to be confusion about "chansey rank" so i'll clear it up.
chansey rank is a joke. chansey rank was originally our way of stopping the question that popped up every 2 pages of the xy viability thread (why blissey > chansey?) and now its just there to showcase pokemon that are "blacklisted from discussion" more or less, see: pokemon rejected for analyses, mega latis, chansey itself. D rank is where the absolute shitters of the tier go, those that cant find their way onto a team for any serious (or viable) reason but cant drop to OU. C rank is niche mons that can do the odd thing. hopefully that clears things up. also "dropping to chansey rank" isnt a thing. dont suggest it because its a joke rank. if you think something is so unbelievably bad that it cant even go in c- rank then suggest it for D, although this rank is more or less for the mons that are uber but cant be used viably at all, so thats not possible unless OU bans something thats atrocious in ubers. if you see a c- rank mon that just outright sucks these days suggest it goes from c- to unranked just like sweep has suggested with Heatran above (which i agree with). kangaskhan taking a large drop is also something i can agree with because the meta just doesnt work for it and in comparison to mence it just outright sucks ass, C+ seems alright.
chansey rank is a joke. chansey rank was originally our way of stopping the question that popped up every 2 pages of the xy viability thread (why blissey > chansey?) and now its just there to showcase pokemon that are "blacklisted from discussion" more or less, see: pokemon rejected for analyses, mega latis, chansey itself. D rank is where the absolute shitters of the tier go, those that cant find their way onto a team for any serious (or viable) reason but cant drop to OU. C rank is niche mons that can do the odd thing. hopefully that clears things up. also "dropping to chansey rank" isnt a thing. dont suggest it because its a joke rank. if you think something is so unbelievably bad that it cant even go in c- rank then suggest it for D, although this rank is more or less for the mons that are uber but cant be used viably at all, so thats not possible unless OU bans something thats atrocious in ubers. if you see a c- rank mon that just outright sucks these days suggest it goes from c- to unranked just like sweep has suggested with Heatran above (which i agree with). kangaskhan taking a large drop is also something i can agree with because the meta just doesnt work for it and in comparison to mence it just outright sucks ass, C+ seems alright.
Ok, here's my thoughts - nominating Mamoswine for C+ (maybe higher).
I know there are better and faster wallbreakers already in Ubers, but Mamo's ability to break practically every defensive 'mon or set commonly seen in the tier merits at least C rank if not higher.
It might seem useless to provide calcs of Mamoswine against Pokemon weak to its STABs, but that's the whole point of this thing - P-Don, Yveltal and Giratina are all 2HKOed, while Lugia has a chance to be 2HKOed through Multiscale. Even defensive Ho-oh, Ferro, M-Sableye, Xern and 252 Hp Arceus formes are 2HKOed.
Not only that, it has a chance to OHKO megamence with Ice Shard (with SR even defensive variants will fall).
I know there are better and faster wallbreakers already in Ubers, but Mamo's ability to break practically every defensive 'mon or set commonly seen in the tier merits at least C rank if not higher.
It might seem useless to provide calcs of Mamoswine against Pokemon weak to its STABs, but that's the whole point of this thing - P-Don, Yveltal and Giratina are all 2HKOed, while Lugia has a chance to be 2HKOed through Multiscale. Even defensive Ho-oh, Ferro, M-Sableye, Xern and 252 Hp Arceus formes are 2HKOed.
Not only that, it has a chance to OHKO megamence with Ice Shard (with SR even defensive variants will fall).
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 109-130 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- 10.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
what set are you using lol
mamo might be strong but its got a totally trash movepool that leaves it really vulnerable to revenge killing, alongside a bad speed tier. pdon yveltal and giritina might be 2hkod, but they all beat it 1v1? mamos bad as an sr setter and pretty trash as a wallbreaker.
anyways, what is hippowdon doing in c? what exactly is its niche? an e-killer check? pardon my ignorance but idk.
Tbh if I was going to argue for ranking Mamo, it'd be more on the basis that it can revenge kill Mence to a degree no matter how many Dragon Dances it has, which is something that's exceedingly rare in current Ubers.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 270-328 (81.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Salamence: 224-270 (56.9 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That second spread is one I remember off the top of my head so might not be entirely accurate, idk. Tbh I haven't seen that many bulky DD Mence recently as with the current trend towards Hyper Offense they tend to be offensively invested like in the first spread. It only breaks Lugia in theory, as most Lugia spreads will run Speed aimed at beating base 90s, leaving Mamo behind, meaning they can Roost so that they're no longer weak to Icicle Crash, and proceed to LO and potentially Toxic stall it out. Physically Defensive Yveltal will eat one hit from it and then 2HKO with Foul Play+Sucker Punch. I mean Yveltal doesn't love the encounter and can potentially be at ~40% as well as have rocks up on it's side if the mamo user predicts well so I guess that's something.
I guess if you want to be really pedantic about it, you could say Mamoswine has a niche as a good revenge killer to Offensive Megamence no matter how many boosts it has obtained but requires support to check defensive DDMence, which is disappointing. I'm not sure that's worth enough to rank it, but I guess that's about as much of a niche as the likes of Bug Arceus have so maybe down in D or something would be best.
On Hippowdon, I'm not too sure why that's even ranked. I did have a go with a Rocky Helmet set, aimed at wearing down common physical attackers in the metagame such as Mence, Ho-oh locked into Brave Bird etc. but it was kind of lacking. The trouble I found was that I wanted all of EQ / Slack Off / Rock move / Ice Fang / Whirlwind / Toxic on one set and as such, whatever you decide to go with is always going to fare badly vs something. The best set I ended up getting was EQ / Whirlwind / Slack Off / Stealth Rock because at least by setting rocks and phazing Mence+Ho-oh you can do something back to them I guess but you lose to just about every Defogger in the meta so in the end it just wasn't worth using over don or other Stealth Rock users.
I can second this, I've actually used Mamoswine in Ubers. 90% of the time Lugia just outstalls with Roost spam while Yveltal can just kill it with Foul Play + Sucker Punch. However, it does have a small niche where it can revenge kill offensive Mega Mence, and it has the right STAB to damage Primal Groudon and some other Flying mons. Stone Edge can snipe Ho-ohs while Superpower does a respectable amount to Arceus. However, as DM said, it requires a ton of support and it's only a gimmick at best so D rank at most for me.Freeroamer said:
- Status