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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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It needs to be acknowledged that this "no Scald" ladder is a acquiescence to many players that want Scald banned without the shitty policy implications that go with it. These ladders were created with a bias in mind, and not simply to test out random shit, which was previously what a bunch of people wanted LC suspects to become. We should not be adding another pointless ladder on the whims of a select few people that mostly lack experience in LC
I don't really want to get into a policy argument but I think it's kinda necessary since UU and company keep setting up idiotic precedents.
We are not going to ban Knock Off; there is absolutely no reason to do so. It has been noted numerous times that it is a balancing move considering how important items are in this metagame. Same goes for Berry Juice as I have yet to see a legitimate argument made for its ban.
I don't really want to get into a policy argument but I think it's kinda necessary since UU and company keep setting up idiotic precedents.
We are not going to ban Knock Off; there is absolutely no reason to do so. It has been noted numerous times that it is a balancing move considering how important items are in this metagame. Same goes for Berry Juice as I have yet to see a legitimate argument made for its ban.
I agree with the end of this post. not the beginning. UU is looking at Scald because it's a move that literally balances games on the 30% chance of a burn - sometimes it's a "2 chances to burn; hit you win, dont get it you lose", others it's "spam scald and if you get a burn nothing's breaking you gg". It's happening in UU specifically because Bulky waters are so abundant that these situations happen disconcertingly often - it's similar to (iirc) koko's support for a Scald ban in BW because bulky water rainstall mons either got burns or lost. So we disagree on the topic of the validity of a Scald test, but we do agree that nothing brought up in lc has similar validity behind it. Knock Off, Bj, Evio, all are distinctly skill-based and balancing elements of the meta that are fully predictable and do not ever cause games to be decided by almost literal coinflips (.7 x .7 + .49 chance a scald burn doesnt happen in 2 uses, thats symbolic). Any claim to "this is similar to the scald testban" is a false equivilency in every sense besides "this is a ladder without a specific element" - there's no policy comparison between a luck-reducing change and a random metagame change.boo836 said:
if were suggesting bullshit though im waiting for my abra-free cancer-free ladder
Games being decided on Scald burns ought to be treated as situational, not the norm. Frankly, many Pokemon are able to check Scald users rather well. These complaints of it being impossible to break past would not exist if you stopped expecting physical sweepers to beat them. I would not expect special sweepers to break through Chansey. Bulky waters ought to be considered as being in a similar boat.
Luck might be uncompetitive in nature, but luck is present in nearly all aspects of Pokemon, from rolls to speed ties, to crits, to secondary effects. We need to examine the results of these outcomes, not simply the fact that there's luck involved. For instance, Swagger caused a coin flip which would lead to many mons being capable of beating anything but specialized checks. Scald's outcome is a decent burn chance, which allows bulky waters to check many physical n sweepers. However, Scald's presence has not stopped the use of physical sweepers, and it still leaves said bulky waters open to the grass and electric types around.
Tl; dr scald ladder is dishonest and really no different than a knock off ladder. The scale of luck involved isn't even any different than lava plume or body slam lmao
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can you stop talking like this, being closed-minded like this is simply a negative influence on the metagame. Many people, including top players despise how scald burns damage the games fluid motions as it turns some games into who burns first. Do not compare two different subjects just to attempt to end meaningful discussion. You're not the decider so please stop acting like it.
Scald doesn't damaget fluidity of the game any differently than Knock Off. That is to say neither do. Merely, they can affect the tempo of the game, hence LC's fast pace playing. That said, games coming down to a Scald burn are again situational at best, and due to poor teambuilding at worst.
I was not acting like I'm the "decider", I was stating common sense. Nobody on council would support a knock off ban, and I don't see experienced players that support it either.
W/e we're off topic anyways. The most important point was that these "experiments" are blatantly biased and ought to be avoided. Nevertheless, heysup is right that we shouldn't be arguing on what wasn't nominated.
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I don't know how you would know what members of the council would or would not support considering that you are not on the council. How about when we have these discussions, we stop saying "nobody agrees with" or "everybody thinks that" or "it's obviously" or any other conversation ending, debate killing, overly grandiose buzz words. Clearly not everyone feels the same way about specific elements of the tier since people have chimed in with different thoughts and ideas as to what they think should or should not be a part of Little Cup. You, along with many others that participate in these threads try and act like you're puporting facts as opposed to opinions. Stop stifling discussion by presenting your argument or opinion as if it is the debate winning statement. You don't "win" a debate--you support your arguments better than those with a differing opinion.
i know actually quite a few solid players who question the power of knock off within the metagame. i, for one being on the council, don't support a knock off ban as of right now, but i definitely wouldn't rule it out of the question. sure as hell would rather discuss it over bp.
I have never, ever seen any player that has been on council support a knock off ban, hecause there's absolutely no reason to do so whatsoever. The "power" of the move serves to help dismantle defensive Pokemon. It does not make defensive teams unviable, it merely balances them. Similarly, Berry Juice basically doubling a mon's field presence is pretty horseshit offensively and defensively. Knock Off becomes a vulnerability to them.
I daresay I've supported myself enough. The viability and presence of defensive teams despite knock off and volt turn existing easily invalidates the notion that knock off is umbalancing. Add on the fact that I drew my opinion about a council decision based upon the views of virtually every experienced player I know.
LC in its current form without knock off would have to have its name changed to "Stall, the metagame. I completely agree here. LC's niche is the offensive nature of the meta, which it has been for years. BW was arguably the slowest LC meta due to eviolites introduction, and because of the knock off buff not yet happening. I would not support anything that would attempt to slow down the meta. Offense was what drew me to it in the first place.
Yeah, a knock off less ladder would be equivalent to having a ferrothorn vs ferrothorn (or chinchou vs chinchou without water type moves) Because LC would lose all of its offense due to the loss of removing eviolite. The meta would be really slow and with how balanced our current meta is, would be extremely boring to play. This could cause a negative reaction from every competitive player ever due to the fact that little cup needs an offensive meta, which is nonexistent without knock off
A knock off less ladder would be more in line with BW LC, only worse. In BW LC there was weather that wore down opposing (and your) teams, hazards which were difficult to remove due to the very powerful spinblocker in Misdreavus, and just frankly more power in Murkrow and pre-Base Power nerf moves. Even then there were a few mons (like Mienfoo) who still ran Knock Off purely for utility purposes, since back then it wasn't doing much if anything in the way of damage.
In this current generation we gained a few very good defensive mons in the form of Pumpkaboo and Spritzee who would frankly be very difficult to really break without Knock Off, and with Berry Juice legal SturdyJuice would be very threatening without Knock Off, and especially RecycleJuice. I see little benefit towards creating an interesting metagame by banning Knock Off, and instead actually believe it would result in a worse one.
In this current generation we gained a few very good defensive mons in the form of Pumpkaboo and Spritzee who would frankly be very difficult to really break without Knock Off, and with Berry Juice legal SturdyJuice would be very threatening without Knock Off, and especially RecycleJuice. I see little benefit towards creating an interesting metagame by banning Knock Off, and instead actually believe it would result in a worse one.
Burn is amazing tbh so I've been REALLY liking Ponyta. When the threat is inside you can just throw out Wisps and the only thing that doesn't mind burns in the top ranks are the two Fire-types and Timburr. Even stuff like Chinchou (depends on set ofc) won't like it because the residual damage really help wear it down for sweeps. Another big thing about Wisp spam is there's no Lefties to mitigate it. Also Flame Body trolls anything that tounches you, especially the two S ranks. And the thing is Pony is so fast so you can just stay in on SE moves and cripple the opponent, though rip if you miss. Also Wisp spam team with Hex Gastly (there's no level restriction right) sounds coolaf.
What do you think would happen if Eviolite was banned? How would it affect meta?
If Eviolite was banned then suddenly a whole lot more things become seriously threatening. Shell Smashers become much harder to stop, Zig becomes a monster with pursuit support, and in general everything would shift towards a more offensive metagame.
The new hold item of choice would be Berry Juice, and about 80% of mons would run it in the absence of Eviolite ala ADV Sitrus Berries. Scarf would become more popular as well, since its disadvantage in lack of bulk would be gone, and highly offensive mons would be capable of breaking through much more.
Overall it'd be a bit like DPP LC except a whole lot more threatening. Also it'd kill what momentum stall has begun to get.
The new hold item of choice would be Berry Juice, and about 80% of mons would run it in the absence of Eviolite ala ADV Sitrus Berries. Scarf would become more popular as well, since its disadvantage in lack of bulk would be gone, and highly offensive mons would be capable of breaking through much more.
Overall it'd be a bit like DPP LC except a whole lot more threatening. Also it'd kill what momentum stall has begun to get.
I've been doing a little thinking about sacrificial moves lately, but I am wondering if the rest of you consider any of them aside from Memento viable. Although losing a member of your team can be a hefty price to pay, the four suicide moves have spectacular effects and when used properly, they can neutralize threats to your team or allow a teammate an opening to set up and sweep.
Here is my concise analysis of the sacrifice moves:
Memento
Power: --
Type: Dark
Effect: User faints. Lowers foe's Attack and Special Attack by two stages.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Using Memento in order to provide a teammate an opportunity to set up is a reasonably common strategy in LC given the ferocity of some of the sweepers. A Memento user is paired with a teammate such as Zigzagoon or Omanyte, excellent sweepers that are sometimes too frail to set up without support. Each of the three common users of the move are fast enough to use it and can provide ample support for their teammates; Diglett traps the Steel-types that Zigzagoon cannot beat while allowing its Extreme Speed to secure more OHKOes by setting up Stealth Rock. Stunky traps Ghost-types, Gothita, and Abra, allowing for Zigzagoon or a Fighting-type sweeper to benefit from its Memento support. Cottonee's Prankster means it will almost always successfully use Memento. In addition, it can beat some of the Fighting- and Water-types that check most Shell Smash sweepers.
Healing Wish
Power: --
Type: Psychic
Effect: User faints. The next Pokemon sent in is fully healed and cleared of status. This effect takes place before entry hazard damage.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Healing Wish is used less than Memento considering there are much fewer viable users, and it does not necessarily allow a frail Pokemon an opportunity to set up. However, a Healing Wish user's teammate can be used much more recklessly, as any chip damage and status conditions will all be undone when the move is used -- provided the intended recipient does not faint. Bulky Pokemon that can take hits are good recipients of Healing Wish, as they can effectively take and deal twice as much damage and even act as status absorbers for their teammates. Bulk Up Timburr and Calm Mind Spritzee are two examples of set-up sweepers, and provided they are kept clear of Knock Off, they remain capable of grinding opposing teams to dust. Bulky Pokemon that lack recovery also enjoy being afforded a second life by Healing Wish, such as Skrelp, Ferroseed, and Pancham.
Destiny Bond
Power: --
Type: Ghost
Effect: If the user faints as a direct result of a attack, the for faints also
Viable Users:
Applications:
The goal of a Destiny Bond user is to simply to bring down a foe. Most of the viable users of the move are very fast and strong, meaning that they can ordinarily take down a few foes before being taken down themselves, usually bringing down a final foe along with them -- ordinarily a check. Houndour and Carvanha can be revenge-killed by Fighting-types, but if they are taken down by Destiny Bond, then this allows its teammates weak to Fighting some breathing space and perhaps even an opportunity to sweep late-game.
Explosion
Power: 250, 100%
Type: Normal
Effect: Regular attack. User faints upon execution.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Explosion is much more niche than the other suicide moves, as the users of the move are very situational. Voltorb uses the move as a suicide rain-setting lead, Pumpkaboo seldom uses the move except for on Trick Room teams as a suicide lead, and Pineco is used as a suicide lead on hyper offense teams. Explosion is not used in order to secure sweeps or open up opportunities for setup, or even necessarily bring down checks to its teammates. It is simply used to bring in a teammate into an advantageous field condition, however, the damage it does can allow for a teammate to easily pick off a damaged foe. However, there are examples of Pokemon that can score surprise KOes with Explosion. Scarf Analytic Magnemite is fantastic at forcing switches, and its Explosion can put a heavy dent in many switch-ins, particularly Chinchou.
I would love to hear your opinions on suicide moves and the strategies you have developed with them.
Here is my concise analysis of the sacrifice moves:
Memento
Power: --
Type: Dark
Effect: User faints. Lowers foe's Attack and Special Attack by two stages.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Using Memento in order to provide a teammate an opportunity to set up is a reasonably common strategy in LC given the ferocity of some of the sweepers. A Memento user is paired with a teammate such as Zigzagoon or Omanyte, excellent sweepers that are sometimes too frail to set up without support. Each of the three common users of the move are fast enough to use it and can provide ample support for their teammates; Diglett traps the Steel-types that Zigzagoon cannot beat while allowing its Extreme Speed to secure more OHKOes by setting up Stealth Rock. Stunky traps Ghost-types, Gothita, and Abra, allowing for Zigzagoon or a Fighting-type sweeper to benefit from its Memento support. Cottonee's Prankster means it will almost always successfully use Memento. In addition, it can beat some of the Fighting- and Water-types that check most Shell Smash sweepers.
Healing Wish
Power: --
Type: Psychic
Effect: User faints. The next Pokemon sent in is fully healed and cleared of status. This effect takes place before entry hazard damage.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Healing Wish is used less than Memento considering there are much fewer viable users, and it does not necessarily allow a frail Pokemon an opportunity to set up. However, a Healing Wish user's teammate can be used much more recklessly, as any chip damage and status conditions will all be undone when the move is used -- provided the intended recipient does not faint. Bulky Pokemon that can take hits are good recipients of Healing Wish, as they can effectively take and deal twice as much damage and even act as status absorbers for their teammates. Bulk Up Timburr and Calm Mind Spritzee are two examples of set-up sweepers, and provided they are kept clear of Knock Off, they remain capable of grinding opposing teams to dust. Bulky Pokemon that lack recovery also enjoy being afforded a second life by Healing Wish, such as Skrelp, Ferroseed, and Pancham.
Destiny Bond
Power: --
Type: Ghost
Effect: If the user faints as a direct result of a attack, the for faints also
Viable Users:
Applications:
The goal of a Destiny Bond user is to simply to bring down a foe. Most of the viable users of the move are very fast and strong, meaning that they can ordinarily take down a few foes before being taken down themselves, usually bringing down a final foe along with them -- ordinarily a check. Houndour and Carvanha can be revenge-killed by Fighting-types, but if they are taken down by Destiny Bond, then this allows its teammates weak to Fighting some breathing space and perhaps even an opportunity to sweep late-game.
Explosion
Power: 250, 100%
Type: Normal
Effect: Regular attack. User faints upon execution.
Viable Users:
Applications:
Explosion is much more niche than the other suicide moves, as the users of the move are very situational. Voltorb uses the move as a suicide rain-setting lead, Pumpkaboo seldom uses the move except for on Trick Room teams as a suicide lead, and Pineco is used as a suicide lead on hyper offense teams. Explosion is not used in order to secure sweeps or open up opportunities for setup, or even necessarily bring down checks to its teammates. It is simply used to bring in a teammate into an advantageous field condition, however, the damage it does can allow for a teammate to easily pick off a damaged foe. However, there are examples of Pokemon that can score surprise KOes with Explosion. Scarf Analytic Magnemite is fantastic at forcing switches, and its Explosion can put a heavy dent in many switch-ins, particularly Chinchou.
I would love to hear your opinions on suicide moves and the strategies you have developed with them.
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Uhh, I think the first "viable user" listed for Explosion should be Stunky, personally. Explosion Stunky is actually quite cool if you don't particularly want to sacrifice Stunky to help set up a sweeper. I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying Memento is the most viable option in the four moves listed, rather I'd say it's the most used because it helps frail sweepers that everybody enjoys using, I am looking at you Zigzagoon, Omanyte, Shellder, and Fletchling, a chance to come in and finish the game after a few threats have been taken out, which effectively minimizes risk in the form of hax. However, Destiny Bond does have potential to be just as damaging to the opponent as Memento does, as Destiny Bond can essentially remove from battle something that directly threatens your team. I'd say people see Destiny Bond as "less useful" than Memento because it requires a lot more prediction than just coming on something you outspeed (or a wall/pivot like Chinchou/Foongus/Vullaby).
The move listed here that I think deserves a more notable mention is Explosion, honestly. Explosion Stunky, as I said, is definitely a cool niche in Stunky's arsenal that has been undermined due to the existence of Memento in its movepool. However, there are other holders of Explosion that could potentially use it to some benefit. Analytic Choice Scarf Magnemite, for some reason, comes to mind in this front: What better way to rid your opponent of the ever-so-frightening Chinchou than Explode in its face as it switches in to block your Volt Switch? However, I will admit that Explosion Pumpkaboo could be a cool trick, especially on Pumpkaboo-Small due to it being more offensive in general.
(On a side note, I think you should mention Gothita as a threat Stunky helps remove, rather than only listing Abra as a Psychic-type)
The move listed here that I think deserves a more notable mention is Explosion, honestly. Explosion Stunky, as I said, is definitely a cool niche in Stunky's arsenal that has been undermined due to the existence of Memento in its movepool. However, there are other holders of Explosion that could potentially use it to some benefit. Analytic Choice Scarf Magnemite, for some reason, comes to mind in this front: What better way to rid your opponent of the ever-so-frightening Chinchou than Explode in its face as it switches in to block your Volt Switch? However, I will admit that Explosion Pumpkaboo could be a cool trick, especially on Pumpkaboo-Small due to it being more offensive in general.
(On a side note, I think you should mention Gothita as a threat Stunky helps remove, rather than only listing Abra as a Psychic-type)
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Suicide TR Pumpkaboo gives me an interesting look at my own preferences regarding sacrificial moves. It gets access to both Destiny Bond and Explosion, and while I have used both, I prefer Destiny Bond despite its reliance on prediction and potential to waste TR turns. I have used Destiny Bond on other Pokemon, and I find myself liking the move so much simply because it is less expected. Carvanha, for example, is an excellent revenge killer and sweeper, but it's less known for its ability to take down things it wouldn't normally -- like Mienfoo, Chinchou, Skrelp, and Foongus. Nabbing a revenge-kill and a counter revenge-kill in two turns can rapidly shift the tide of most battles, and this is true for any Destiny Bond user.
It's also good to mention that Drifloon actually gets Memento too, which coupled with Unburden makes a low hp Floon perhaps one of the most dangerous utilitymons out there. Imma turn this into praise for Drifloon, perhaps one of the most underrated mons in this meta! Fully defensive Floon has a bevy of support options like above mentioned Memento and Destiny Bond, Baton Pass, Defog, Will o Wisp, and so much more! I recently made a mono Ghost team with the help of Jac and supplied my own Drifloon. A funny thing is is that Drifloon, with a combination of Destiny Bond and Unburden, can actually reliably switch into and beat Pawniard (the only member of my team capable of doing so). All in all, Floon is a great mon in this meta
idk where else to put this so
http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Enter_the_Dragon_Type_Wi-Fi_competition_announced
"Participants that battle three times and record a win or loss in each battle will receive Amaura with its Hidden Ability Snow Warning. It will be level 10 and will have the moves: Growl, Powder Snow, Thunder Wave and Rock Throw. After the rankings are released on March 27, Amaura will be available for participants."
I think it's legal now.
http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Enter_the_Dragon_Type_Wi-Fi_competition_announced
"Participants that battle three times and record a win or loss in each battle will receive Amaura with its Hidden Ability Snow Warning. It will be level 10 and will have the moves: Growl, Powder Snow, Thunder Wave and Rock Throw. After the rankings are released on March 27, Amaura will be available for participants."
I think it's legal now.
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