No Scald Ladder

[Machi]

There are a few non-gimmicky answers to Scald that surprisingly nobody has brought up yet, including but not limited to Safeguard (this move is just as good as dual screens for HO teams and it's a crime it's not used more often), sun teams (40 BP Scald suddenly looks much less attractive and there is no shortage of sun abusers in UU), RestTalk and Shed Skin.

I don't get why people outright refuse to try these solutions out when they have been fine with a momentum-killing 20 BP move to deal with entry hazards for years.

http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/shedskin.shtml

Of these only Scrafty is in UU, and struggling at that... So if it wasn't recommended it wasn't out of being lazy as you so claim.

Funny thing about rest-talk is that the most common user is in itself one of the most common users of scald :P That said I think it is obvious why people don't readily recommend this, unlike other answers posted, since it eats up move slots and is RNG based, all while succumbing to a new status (Sleep) which can be exploited.

Whereas sun well is both a pro and con in itself, like any weather teams but generally this just out right a bad match up for any water type. It is not a splashable answer and caters to a more particular style of play.

I also think you're stretching yourself with rapid spin in so much that you had other options to outright prevent hazards which isn't exactly the same in this context, whereas Scald isn't exactly as preventable (as I said it fulfills the role of status and offense in one convenient move).

Another thing is while rapid spin does kill hazards it has a monopoly, prior to defog, to utility - and it is not as if everybody is comfortable with rapid spin so don't be so certain about it.

 

[Sam]

So I just wanted to clear some things up here. I see a lot of debate about whether or not Scald deserves to be banned for x reason and that's not really the point of this test, or even these thread. We're not suspecting Scald, and as of now how no immediate plans to either. As I've said in the OP, we are going to be using this ladder to help us determine future actions to take regarding Scald. However, whatever happens is way down the line. For now, our only concern is how the metagame of this ladder turns out and how the removal of Scald affects UU. If you have any strong opinions of Scald one way or another, the time may come to share those at some point. In the meantime, focus on this ladder. Talk about how lack of Scald affects things. That's what this thread is for. Don't discuss whether or not Scald deserves to be banned as this isn't the time or place for that.

 

[jamashawalker]

While I havent been able to dable with the Scaldless ladder, I am curious what are people's opinions on set up sweepers in the metagame? Can DD Haxorus sweep more effeciently? Can heracross now run Moxie without fear of being stopped from Suicune? For that matter does Toxicroak lose some it's viability now that bulky waters now have to run ice beam for coverage?

 

[Schpoonman]

I still haven't seen DD Haxorus, but I've seen a not-insignificant amount of Scarf Hydreigon and Salamence, so I'd say he actually has just as much trouble sweeping.

I don't think Heracross' classic sets really want to change their ability, even without Scald. He's obviously too slow to really sweep Swords Dance, and he doesn't get something like Agility (which would be an absolute NIGHTMARE with Moxie, Jesus). So the only time he can properly snowball is with a Scarf, so I think you still want Guts for basically every other set.

I'm seeing a lot less bulky waters in general, and those that I'm still seeing tend to give Toxicroak trouble, so I'd say he has a little bit more trouble now.

 

[Wanka]

While I havent been able to dable with the Scaldless ladder, I am curious what are people's opinions on set up sweepers in the metagame? Can DD Haxorus sweep more effeciently? Can heracross now run Moxie without fear of being stopped from Suicune? For that matter does Toxicroak lose some it's viability now that bulky waters now have to run ice beam for coverage?

Some really good sweepers that have emerged form being already good to becoming even more reliable sweepers are mons like mega abomasnow and feraliagtr. Gatr can run a multitude of sweeper sets and Obama just eats teams alive after an SD. Those are the main 2 Ive seen, however Ive also seen things like DD mence which can run a life orb with no fear on no scald ladder now making really powerful and slurpuff who can safely Bellydrum on waters now as well. Those are some of the better options as of late.

 

[Schpoonman]

Saying Slurpuff can safely Drum is misleading, since I'm hearing a lot about Vaporeon and Suicune running Roar now.

 

[Wanka]

Saying Slurpuff can safely Drum is misleading, since I'm hearing a lot about Vaporeon and Suicune running Roar now.

yes ty that is quite true they are running roar now. None the less its becoming more common

 

[aim]

All these DD Dragons haha being forced to run ice beam on all my bulky waters and even then i get stomped my Yache Berrys. Interesting to see how much damage surf can do to mons. I find myself missing the burn on fat mons like fore/umbreon/empoleon. Rain too is incredibly strong. M-pert beats seismitoed since no scald burn haha unless toxic tect shenanigans. Ladder is fun but i find myself missing scald

 

[Kink]

played like 10 battles. no scald is fun, but that's all it is, fun not to get burned.

which made me think of a couple things during my 12 hour shift at work...

annoying does not mean broken.

scald is annoying.

like really annoying.

can't say it's anything beyond that.

but we'll see how I feel down the road.

 

[Tymano]

Scald is annoying

Pokes that use scald are bulky defensively.

Pokes that use scald are annoying such as suicunt.

If non defensive pokemon were the ones to use scald, we wouldn't consider it annoying as much.

This leads me to conclude that although scald is annoying, most of it is from the pokemon that tend to use scald, such as cune and vape, who wall anything burnt to death.

 

[Lucipurrr]

Saying Slurpuff can safely Drum is misleading, since I'm hearing a lot about Vaporeon and Suicune running Roar now.

I literally JUST talked to Csb about this earlier. Slurpuff Needs to get off that Belly drum to be an OP slum-dog killionaire. Slurpuff is a great pokemon with good sweeping potential in UU, but with Roar becoming more dominate on No Scald, it's slowly losing it's viability there.

 

[Schpoonman]

Scald is annoying

Pokes that use scald are bulky defensively.

Pokes that use scald are annoying such as suicunt.

If non defensive pokemon were the ones to use scald, we wouldn't consider it annoying as much.

This leads me to conclude that although scald is annoying, most of it is from the pokemon that tend to use scald, such as cune and vape, who wall anything burnt to death.

I'd like to address this post, because it understates how ubiquitous Scald is. UU is for good reason sometimes referred to as Bulky Water: The Tier. We have a higher concentration of good Water-types in circulation than any other tier, with 7 in S and A ranks in the viability rankings. There are 38 Pokemon (not all of whom are UU mind you, but that's irrelevant) in S and A. So nearly one in five of the 40 best Pokemon in the tier can and probably will be carrying Scald. Most of those seven are defensive, but there's also Mega Blastoise, who hardly relies on netting a burn to inflict damage, but he still commonly runs Scald over Water Pulse because a 30% chance to burn is far far more effective than a 30% chance to confuse. Forgive me if this counts as off topic, but Keldeo runs Scald in OU over Surf specifically because spamming Scald does more than enough damage and burn damage can very quickly add up.

Maybe there is a bias in UU because all our good Water-types want to run bulky sets where the burn chance is preferable, but I think a line is crossed when Swampert goes from using Waterfall on his very much superior base 110 Attack to Scald off uninvested base 85 Special Attack because of one move.

EDIT: Could you clarify what you mean, YABO? How does Entei's presence make Surf superior to Waterfall?

 

[YABO]

I'd like to address this post, because it understates how ubiquitous Scald is. UU is for good reason sometimes referred to as Bulky Water: The Tier. We have a higher concentration of good Water-types in circulation than any other tier, with 7 in S and A ranks in the viability rankings. There are 38 Pokemon (not all of whom are UU mind you, but that's irrelevant) in S and A. So nearly one in five of the 40 best Pokemon in the tier can and probably will be carrying Scald. Most of those seven are defensive, but there's also Mega Blastoise, who hardly relies on netting a burn to inflict damage, but he still commonly runs Scald over Water Pulse because a 30% chance to burn is far far more effective than a 30% chance to confuse. Forgive me if this counts as off topic, but Keldeo runs Scald in OU over Surf specifically because spamming Scald does more than enough damage and burn damage can very quickly add up.

Maybe there is a bias in UU because all our good Water-types want to run bulky sets where the burn chance is preferable, but I think a line is crossed when Swampert goes from using Waterfall on his very much superior base 110 Attack to Scald off uninvested base 85 Special Attack because of one move.

To be fair, even on the No Scald ladder I find Surf to be more effective on Pert as a more reliable way of dealing damage given Entei's enormous popularity.

 

[ryan]

EDIT: Could you clarify what you mean, YABO? How does Entei's presence make Surf superior to Waterfall?

You can switch Swampert into Sacred Fire without having to worry about both of your attacks becoming terrible.

 

[aim]

You can switch Swampert into Sacred Fire without having to worry about both of your attacks becoming terrible.

why are you reggie LOL

 

[Zartres10]

I literally JUST talked to Csb about this earlier. Slurpuff Needs to get off that Belly drum to be an OP slum-dog killionaire. Slurpuff is a great pokemon with good sweeping potential in UU, but with Roar becoming more dominate on No Scald, it's slowly losing it's viability there.

Even on the normal ladder, roar's becoming more common, I've noticed (rip my slurpuff).

 

[Aasgier]

For some reason, the idea popped into my mind that this idea was casted by Nitendo and they are now looking how to nerf Scald in Gen VII, and they're using Smogon to come up with suggestions they could use.

 

[BenzMafia]

I don't like Waterfall on Swampert either because it is weak but was using a different move instead. You should be familiar if you were playing during the Zygarde meta.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 236 Def / 32 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

Swampert's STAB moves alone have simply bad coverage whereas ground & ice are amazing together. This allows you to beat Salamence instead of being a set up fodder. (I know you can phaze it but what if it is the last mon?). Ice beam is chosen over ice punch due to the presence of intimidate. I guess you can fit surf for rotom-h and the rare moltres/fletch somewhere over roar or sr if you have another setter.

 

[Lucipurrr]

Even on the normal ladder, roar's becoming more common, I've noticed (rip my slurpuff).

Roar was common a while back, a lot of good bulkmons were running it, but it died down for some reason? I'm happy to know it's returning on No Scald and MLG Ladder. It's a great move, especially when you roar someone into a rage quit.

 

[Nysyr]

Even on the normal ladder, roar's becoming more common, I've noticed (rip my slurpuff).

Means more folks are adapting to making correct plays instead of hoping for hax to bail them out.

Sometimes hoping for hax is the correct play

If its your only out, sure. But formulating a team and strategy around getting scald burns is far from a competitive way to approach a meta. Example: if your only way to deal with 'Snow is to click scald with Suicine on switches instead of having a solid counter. Sure you'll get the scald burn a fair amount of time, but what happens when the coin doesn't land in your favour?

Literally like 60% of the games I observed on the ladder were decided by scald burns on switchins that were clearly obvious, but fishing for scald burns (while not optimal) was so mindless to do and potentially rewarding I would rarely ever see a double switch. It reminds me of Bpass, its basically removes the aspect of switching out because lolscaldburns.

 

[aim]

Sometimes hoping for hax is the correct play

 

[Jimmy L]

So I totally just read through this entire thread wow. Don't play much UU but I intend to start today. Will try both ladders and base my opinions on that.

Scald is annoying as hell. Broken-annoying? I have no idea.

 

[Patrick1088]

So, playing on the ladder a bit. I've been having with with Mega Swampy/Sharpedo. Both are fantastic late game cleaners (whether running CB Swampy/Mega Pedo or Mega Pert/LO Pedo). I like running both since they have a tendency to overpower the same checks they share.

The Scald-less ladder is pretty different from the regular ladder. I find the former to be less relying on that 30% chance of burn, which is the sole reason to really using Scald. Otherwise Surf would be more viable. I think some of the mons more affected by the lack of scald are Suicune, Tentacruel and Empleon. I haven't seen too many of these the past few days, but that could just be me. Has anybody tried Suicune in a similar role without Scald? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too different than with Scald and the overall ability to deter physical attackers while boosting it's Sp Def to obscene levels. But, I think Tenta and Empoleon were hurt a lot by no Scald. They do rely on that 30% chance of burn since they their physical defense is average at best (80/65 for Tenta and 84/88 for Empoleon). They need to fish for the burn in order to better check physical attackers like Salamence, Haxorus, etc.. Without it, they are at risk of getting picked off with an easy earthquake.

There are a few other mons that have been hurt by Scald whether directly or indirectly; Toxicroak (still on OK check to Mega Stoise, which is pretty much unaffected by no Scald since it has Water Pulse, which is pretty much Surf + confusion), Gastrodon, Helioisk (recent rise in usage). Another mon that I've been playing with is Slowking. I've been trying it on the regular ladder as a CM user with Scald/Psyshock (ala Slowbro, just slightly less phy. bulk). Scald is essential on that set to punish physical attackers while boosting uncontrollably. But, unlike Suicune, it doesn't have that huge 100/115/115 defenses, so it's harder to boost while physical bulk stays average.

Here are some questions that I've been thinking about during this ladder:

Is the threat of Scald really enough to quell titans like Mence, Hax and Gatr?
Is this just a case of broken checking broken?
If Scald had a lower chance of burn, would we be having this separate ladder?
Should we start looking into other moves that have that same, or higher, percentage; Thunder, Sludge Bomb, etc..
Should we take the 30% burn as just another calculation along with the the rest of the game's key numbers; 10% Crit, 20% Crit for Stone Edge, 20% of Sp Def drop from Shadow Ball, etc...?

On a separate, but related note, we had Jirachi in the UU tier for the longest time in XY and ORAS. Jirachi's Iron Head had a 60% chance of flinching. Despite the number of Iron resist at the time (Entei, Chandelure, Suicune, Swampert, Slowbro/king, Mega Aggron, etc..) it was still an effective mindless clicking. There were arguments saying well Steel attacking is walled by a lot of things, so that was a key factor in my opinion why Togekiss got the ban awhile back. Flying STAB and ability to mindlessly click Air Slash had few real checks. Rachi and Kiss are long gone, but the comparison is worth noting. Scald's 30% of burn despite having numerous clerics (blissey, Umbreon, Florges), water absorbers (Toxicroak, Helioisk, Gastrodon) and boosting mons that don't care (Sub Mence, CroCune, Lum Berry Boosters, etc...) that are available in the tier.

Sorry to blab, I just wanted to post what was going through my mind during this ladder.

 

[silenced]

So, playing on the ladder a bit. I've been having with with Mega Swampy/Sharpedo. Both are fantastic late game cleaners (whether running CB Swampy/Mega Pedo or Mega Pert/LO Pedo). I like running both since they have a tendency to overpower the same checks they share.

The Scald-less ladder is pretty different from the regular ladder. I find the former to be less relying on that 30% chance of burn, which is the sole reason to really using Scald. Otherwise Surf would be more viable. I think some of the mons more affected by the lack of scald are Suicune, Tentacruel and Empleon. I haven't seen too many of these the past few days, but that could just be me. Has anybody tried Suicune in a similar role without Scald? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too different than with Scald and the overall ability to deter physical attackers while boosting it's Sp Def to obscene levels. But, I think Tenta and Empoleon were hurt a lot by no Scald. They do rely on that 30% chance of burn since they their physical defense is average at best (80/65 for Tenta and 84/88 for Empoleon). They need to fish for the burn in order to better check physical attackers like Salamence, Haxorus, etc.. Without it, they are at risk of getting picked off with an easy earthquake.

There are a few other mons that have been hurt by Scald whether directly or indirectly; Toxicroak (still on OK check to Mega Stoise, which is pretty much unaffected by no Scald since it has Water Pulse, which is pretty much Surf + confusion), Gastrodon, Helioisk (recent rise in usage). Another mon that I've been playing with is Slowking. I've been trying it on the regular ladder as a CM user with Scald/Psyshock (ala Slowbro, just slightly less phy. bulk). Scald is essential on that set to punish physical attackers while boosting uncontrollably. But, unlike Suicune, it doesn't have that huge 100/115/115 defenses, so it's harder to boost while physical bulk stays average.

Here are some questions that I've been thinking about during this ladder:

Is the threat of Scald really enough to quell titans like Mence, Hax and Gatr?
Is this just a case of broken checking broken?
If Scald had a lower chance of burn, would we be having this separate ladder?
Should we start looking into other moves that have that same, or higher, percentage; Thunder, Sludge Bomb, etc..
Should we take the 30% burn as just another calculation along with the the rest of the game's key numbers; 10% Crit, 20% Crit for Stone Edge, 20% of Sp Def drop from Shadow Ball, etc...?

Only casually have I been mucking around on the no scald ladder (somehow no matter what I make ends up being stupidly weak to ice moves...), but suicune is still pretty good. Defensive sets aside, CM chestorest or CM 3 attacks is still pretty nasty, and a fun bulky sweeper to use.

Tentacruel is pretty bad. Only viable set might be acid spray + 3 attacks, as it makes the most of its movepool and speed. Empoleon is best used as a bulky attacker probably.

The first two questions you ask really make me think. On one hand, people might just take the risk anyway in running LO DD salamence/gatr and bet against the burn on the regular ladder, or mitigate the risk somewhat with something like healing wish shaymin. On the other hand, its the mental psyche out that scald provides as to why DD mence does not tear new arseholes as it was feared the first time it was suspected in UU. It's a dangerous mind game that I feel emphasizes risk vs reward, i.e you risk getting burned in order to put in a game-ending sweep or punch serious holes in a defensive core.

Broke checking broke though? That I will say no to. Gatr hates scald, but the bulky waters that take it on outside of alomomola and crocune can still retaliate hard, phaze, or boost alongside it and take it down. Mence and haxorus have always had the capabilities to punish scald users in their own ways, whether it be SD Lum haxorus boosting past the burn or refresh mence healing it off. There have always been ways for both the stat booster and the scald user to bypass their problems, but I don't think you can force the players to make that choice. They have to learn it themselves from playing the ladder, and realising 30% =/= 100%. If they still can't do that...well you can't help everyone on UU's ladder.

I'll pass on questions 3 and 4, but for your last, I say take the 30% into account. As irritating as the numbers game is at times, at the end of the day, I'm happy enough that there at least exists a wide variety of answers for all team types that help mitigate/punish the 30% issue, as opposed to things you absolutely cannot do a damn thing about outside of extreme gimmicks (e.g crits and freeze)

 

[Jaguar360]

Speaking of Empoleon, I made a pretty interesting set for it for this ladder.
Empoleon @ Air Balloon
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog / Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot / Flash Cannon

With 111 Sp. Atk, running a more offensive spread for Empoleon isn't such a bad option. Air Balloon allows it to be immune to Spikes when Defogging and/or temporarily check or at least come in on stuff like Flygon, Gligar, Haxorus, Krookodile, Salamence, etc. Hydro Pump is pretty strong on Empoleon, 2HKOing Mega Aggron and providing a good STAB. Grass Knot 2HKOes Suicune and Milotic after Rocks and beats Gatr, Pedo and Swampert as well. The EV spread outspeeds defensive Rotom-H.