GSC In-Game Tier List

[Lucchini]

The changes that really need to happen right now:

Staryu (C) up from D to A.
Spearow and Teddiursa up from B to A.
Cubone up to B seems fine.
The Oddish variants should be united into one entry because they're pretty much equally poor.

And I think it couldn't hurt to move Sneasel up to D for a surprisingly good performance against Claire, Will, Lance and Sabrina, among others.

 

[Colonel M]

I can agree to some of them (the Sneasel one I want to look at a little bit but I might concede to it), but the Staryu (C) is a big jump so that one might need explanation unless you had a playthrough with it).

 

[atsync]

I can understand the sentiment about Chikorita being in the same tier as some of the other C-tier Pokemon seeming a bit odd, but to be honest that doesn't bother me that much. It would bother me if we were talking about the higher tiers because I think defining the boundaries between those tiers properly is far more important, but as you go further down you're basically distinguishing "shitty Pokemon" from "very shitty Pokemon", but who cares about that if they're all shitty and not worth using? But if Chikorita does drop and it's still a problem for people we can just start dropping some C-tiers down, or perhaps just try and find a way to split the current C-tier into two separate tiers.

I personally feel that 6 tiers isn't enough for this list anyway, but I probably go more into that over the weekend!

Regarding Tangela, I'm pretty sure that it is possible to get it before the Team Rocket arc in Goldenrod since I think the only requirement for being able to head east of Mahogany is to obtain 7 badges. That doesn't really add much to Tangela's viability considering it's not doing much of note to Team Rocket anyway, but it's something to keep in mind when discussing stuff like Jynx, Swinub and all the others that are locked away for the first 7 gyms since the lower levels of some of the Team Rocket grunts does reduce the burden, if only slightly, of being caught at the low levels that those Pokemon are at when you get them.

I'm going to assume that we don't have a problem with exploiting phone calls by changing between daylight savings (that's how it works right?) to get evolutionary stones more easily in Crystal? That's the only way I would consider A-tier for Staryu and even then I'm not sure it should be THAT high.

EDIT: Also Sneasel is already D-tier in Crystal. It obviously isn't getting out of E-tier in GS because it can't be obtained until Mt. Silver.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm personally a heavy proponent of Mareep to A, it's always one of my staple mons and never disappoints in that regard. Great coverage, best available Electric type, early game availability, faster than you think to as it gains EVs from the start so it doesn't get outsped as often. Great matchups in a lot of the game and the ability to take on mons a lot of others can't (Poliwrath, Kingdra, Lance). Good bulk to support when it does get outsped and obviously great power.

I've seen this debated and never been swayed by the B rank arguments, they seem to center a lot on it's low speed and level 30 evolution which imo are silly arguments. Speed isn't really a factor when evs are considered and when a lot of the faster mons (flyings, waters) are one's you OHKO and can't hit you that hard anyway. Evolution is very average and is a pretty shitty argument when you have a water route Flaaffy should be cleaning right before Chuck around the time your top mons are hitting 30.

 

[atsync]

I've had a go over S, A and B tiers and I have some comments. Don't know whether people will agree but this is just how I feel looking at the list as it is now.

Overall I think that the Pokemon we have in the higher tiers now probably do belong there (mostly), but I'd say the biggest issue I have with the list is the current A tier. I personally feel that about half of the Pokemon in it right now don't deserve to be there. I'd prefer A to be a bit smaller and I would change S and A to something like this:

S

Abra
Totodile

A

Cyndaquil
Geodude
Lapras
Magmar
Mareep
Spearow
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper

I think cases could also be made for the Red Gyarados (not necessarily as powerful as other Waters but it's obtained around the same time as Lapras if you go east of Ecruteak first, it requires no grinding whatsoever and it comes with Thrash and Surf for good power right away) and Psyduck (not really that different from/worse than Lapras if you go with Route 35 Golduck). But aside from those, I think the rest of A tier should just drop to at least B.

I also had a look into possibly dropping things out of B tier since the tier would be a tad large if those Pokemon dropped, but I think it's a bit hard to justify dropping any one Pokemon without dropping several others since many of them seem to be on around the same level (particularly the Waters). Sudowoodo does stick out to me as a potential drop to C though. I'll admit that I also wouldn't have any issue dropping Ho-oh/Lugia/Suicune further either, but I think B tier is ok for them. They don't get to see much action during the parts of the game that actually matter and actually obtaining them is inconvenient but they all perform really well in the parts they are available and I think B tier is justifable. I feel similarly about Jynx.

There might be some other lower tiered Pokemon that could rank higher or lower (e.g. I can't find a reason why Stantler should be in D when Tauros and Miltank are much higher - Stantler is functionally identical to them overall and actually has an advantage in that it's more than twice as common as both of them combined and also comes slightly higher-leveled). But I haven't really gone over the current low tiers thoroughly. It might actually be easier to just leave the lower tiered Pokemon for now and just revisit each one's tiering as they write-ups are submitted rather than try to sort them all out in one go...

Oh, and to comment on Crystal Cubone, I actually think B tier sounds about right for it. STAB Bonemerang at level 25 is just too good even if Cubone is pricey, and at the very least it shouldn't have too much trouble on routes and it has a few good match-ups (Jasmine being its best Johto one by far).

 

[Lucchini]

Staryu is the best user of STAB Surf if we worry about the special attack and speed stats of the user. Golduck has slightly lower stats, but can learn Ice Punch (Staryu waits for Icy Wind, and sorta has a shortage of its favourite moves until Kanto). In Crystal you get the Water Stone much earlier with some time manipulation, so I think Staryu should rise to the same tier as Psyduck and Suicune.

I don't see why Wooper and Teddiursa would make it to A-tier but Gyarados and Tauros wouldn't. Gyarados > Wooper and Tauros > Teddiursa seems like the right way to compare these to me (they do share the typing at least partially). Red Gyarados comes at a substantial level lead and has better speed and generally higher stats than Quagsire. Tauros is fully evolved and faster than Teddy (who waits for his evolution a good bit, but it is... bearable).

Stantler should be closer to Tauros/Miltank, agreed, but it hasn't really got much to offer besides inaccurate sleeping and being available for Whitney. Its TM movepool is a bit poorer, with no access to Surf (Tauros) for pesky rock/grounds or Shadow Ball (Miltank) for the very occasional ghost. Its defensive bases are noticeably poorer, especially physical defence, so I guess it's somewhere in the middle between Tauros/Miltank and, uh, Aipom/Raticate/Furret? Probably closer to the former two though, and has no place in D tier.

And why should Sudowoodo drop? Rock is a spectacular offensive type in Johto, and Sudowoodo actually learns the most powerful rock-type move (Geodude will never learn Rock Slide). It can also afford taking super-effective water or grass-type advantage sometimes, and isn't weak to ice-type moves, making it viable against Pryce and more suitable for ice-move users found on Claire's, Will's or Lance's teams.

I'm a bit concerned Sudowoodo and Geodude aren't in the same tier actually, but Geodude does boast a three gym availability lead (even if I would rather use Spearow/Totodile/Cyndaquil in the first gym and not bother grinding Geodude for Rock Throw), which could explain the tier difference. Two is really pushing it, though - they're mostly so similar. Sudowoodo requires no training, which could be noted to its advantage.

I'm personally a heavy proponent of Mareep to A, it's always one of my staple mons and never disappoints in that regard. Great coverage, best available Electric type, early game availability, faster than you think to as it gains EVs from the start so it doesn't get outsped as often. Great matchups in a lot of the game and the ability to take on mons a lot of others can't (Poliwrath, Kingdra, Lance). Good bulk to support when it does get outsped and obviously great power.

I've seen this debated and never been swayed by the B rank arguments, they seem to center a lot on it's low speed and level 30 evolution which imo are silly arguments. Speed isn't really a factor when evs are considered and when a lot of the faster mons (flyings, waters) are one's you OHKO and can't hit you that hard anyway. Evolution is very average and is a pretty shitty argument when you have a water route Flaaffy should be cleaning right before Chuck around the time your top mons are hitting 30.

"Best available Electric type" is sorta like stating Chikorita is the best grass-type available - the competition is far from strong.

I don't think a lv. 30 evolution is such a big deal (look at Feraligatr in S tier and Typhlosion just one tier below), but Mareep line's speed is bad and is only marginally better than that of the Geodude line. Unlike that line, Mareep also has the much poorer defensive typing with just resistances to electric, steel and flying - not the most common offensive types around. When it's outsped, you can expect it to take quite a lot of chip damage and require a lot of potions.

Relying on Thunderpunch as the most powerful STAB is also kind of a problem, and Thunder is both expensive and inaccurate as a far more powerful alternative.

I think Wooper is really borderline A/B tier, too, now that we've established it doesn't get Earthquake a whole lot earlier than you can learn it by TM (it does enable you to have two EQ users on one team).

 

[Karxrida]

Disclaimer: I have not played any of these games in about 10+ years and this is pure theorymon.

If we're going to raise Staryu (C) based off of Phone manipulation getting the Water Stone, I think that Eevee (Vaporeon) should also rise for similar reasons.

Pros
-Strongest Water in the game with Base 110 Special Attack
-Great 130/60/95 bulk lets it eat up hits
-Easy to get a hold of as Eevee
-Not TM dependent, as it naturally learns the Dark-type Bite and Ice-type Aurora Beam
-In the Medium Fast EXP group (Staryu is in the Slow group)

Cons
-Slow with Base 65 Speed
-Bite comes at Level 30 so you won't be beating other Waters with it super-fast, while Aurora Beam comes at Level 36

 

[Lucchini]

Yeah, Crystal Vaporeon also needs to rise (and I'd argue Espeon, Crystal Jolteon / Flareon also need to get a slight rise, as well) for being one of the hardest-hitting waters, with mostly bearable speed.

Surf is just about all it needs, with Icy Wind to 2HKO dragons while taking only one hit in return.

Bite and Aurora Beam aren't really great coverage - Bite comes at L30 when you've probably got used to using STAB Surf to wreck most things (SE Bite is still weaker than a neutral Surf) and Aurora Beam comes at L35, when Vaporeon probably has been taught Icy Wind, whose debuff makes it more practically useful. Unless you're using the TM on a Nidoroyal, Vaporeon is getting it as your team's water-type of choice.

 

[Random Passerby]

Anything else that needs to be tested? I can give the game another run. However, I only do up to the Elite Four and didn't do Kanto

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah, Crystal Vaporeon also needs to rise (and I'd argue Espeon, Crystal Jolteon / Flareon also need to get a slight rise, as well) for being one of the hardest-hitting waters, with mostly bearable speed.

Surf is just about all it needs, with Icy Wind to 2HKO dragons while taking only one hit in return.

Bite and Aurora Beam aren't really great coverage - Bite comes at L30 when you've probably got used to using STAB Surf to wreck most things (SE Bite is still weaker than a neutral Surf) and Aurora Beam comes at L35, when Vaporeon probably has been taught Icy Wind, whose debuff makes it more practically useful. Unless you're using the TM on a Nidoroyal, Vaporeon is getting it as your team's water-type of choice.

I can't see Jolteon or Flareon rising, mainly because they won't have any STAB until level 52 unless you pony up 5,500 coins for Thunder/Fire Blast (4000 coins in Crystal for Thunderbolt/Flamethrower).

 

[Lucchini]

For Jolteon, you want to keep it unevolved until lv. 30 when it learns Bite as Eevee, then evolve it so it has a second special move to use besides electric moves (mainly the inaccurate Thunder, I suppose). It can use STAB normal-type moves before then.

Flareon might as well evolve immediately, take Mud-Slap for Morty's gym, and then shortly afterwards Shadow Ball and Iron Tail TMs going off its 130 base attack. It can probably go without Fire Blast until the end of the game, should there be competition for that money in your party. Pity about no Dig access until next gen, though.

Not the mons I'd recommend to everybody, really, but they should still leave D tier, where they reside with such wonders like Gligar, Togepi, Tangela and the odd eggs.

Speaking of D-tier, shouldn't Onix be given some credit for its evolution (available after Whitney, but more realistically after you get the Thief TM)? We all know Golem has a great typing for this game, but Steelix's typing is even better (and it has the same earlygame as Geodude just with less power and more defence). Looks like a B-tier to me.

I'd also drop Gligar to E tier - it's a lot worse than some E-dwellers like Corsola and Houndour, I think. You wait so long to catch it, and why? Just to use Sludge Bomb and Iron Tail?

 

[Colonel M]

Im willing to listen more to Jolteon and Flareon but... waiting until Level 30 as an Eevee is pretty bleh. At best you can go with Return STAB and Headbutt. Even then Eevee is kind of meh as a combatant. Ill look into it but I think if the trainer is seriously considering Jolteon and Flareon going to the Game Corner ASAP seems mandatory.

Vaporeon and Staryu can rise up (C anyway). Ill agree to those.

Im thinking Im going to raise Mareep to A. Being the best Electric is a bit more rewarding than being the best Grass-type. This is undermiming that Ampharos has Fire Punch at its disposal and, though meh in Speed and typing resists, it still has good durability to back it up. Nevermind Electric actually is useful offensively throughout the game where Chikorita has really crummy points. Like okay I'll give Grass-type is actually nice against Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types but let's think about this from a realistic standpoint. There are a lot of Pokemon (Flying-, Poison-, Bug-, Steel-, and Grass-types). A lot of these - Poison in particular, are shockingly common throughout the game. I mean at least being the best Electric-type has some meaning in here. Being the best Grass-type is being first in the Special Olympics race.

Steelix, IIRC, still has some credibility here. Onix is about C at the very best here. Onix without trade is good up until about Morty where it sort of falls off into nonexistence. Its offense is crap, its durability gets questionable as the game progresses, and the only real "setup move" it has to help itself is Screech (which has so-so accuracy on top of it).

I have 0 objection for E Gligar. Gligar is really crap in this game.

I've had a go over S, A and B tiers and I have some comments. Don't know whether people will agree but this is just how I feel looking at the list as it is now.

Overall I think that the Pokemon we have in the higher tiers now probably do belong there (mostly), but I'd say the biggest issue I have with the list is the current A tier. I personally feel that about half of the Pokemon in it right now don't deserve to be there. I'd prefer A to be a bit smaller and I would change S and A to something like this:

S

Abra
Totodile

A

Cyndaquil
Geodude
Lapras
Magmar
Mareep
Spearow
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper

I think cases could also be made for the Red Gyarados (not necessarily as powerful as other Waters but it's obtained around the same time as Lapras if you go east of Ecruteak first, it requires no grinding whatsoever and it comes with Thrash and Surf for good power right away) and Psyduck (not really that different from/worse than Lapras if you go with Route 35 Golduck). But aside from those, I think the rest of A tier should just drop to at least B.

I'm a little weary on some of the big powerhouses of Normal-types like Tauros and Miltank dropping from A to B myself. Something to note is that these two hit really fucking hard - and there's also Fearow who I've been contemplating about putting around the A Tier myself (Fearow only really falls off super late game). Friendship Ball Tauros and Miltank practically become quick nukes with access to a plethora of moves that help cover against Pokemon that otherwise trouble Normal-types in general too. I'm also going to say that Gyarados is pretty A Tier as well.

My change would be so:

S

Abra
Totodile

A

Cyndaquil
Geodude
Lapras
Magikarp
Magmar
Mareep
Miltank
Spearow
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper

I could question Psyduck myself but really it seems pretty solid since it gets the upper hand with Ice Punch and is actually in a decent Speed bracket. I'll see what others have to say.

I also had a look into possibly dropping things out of B tier since the tier would be a tad large if those Pokemon dropped, but I think it's a bit hard to justify dropping any one Pokemon without dropping several others since many of them seem to be on around the same level (particularly the Waters). Sudowoodo does stick out to me as a potential drop to C though. I'll admit that I also wouldn't have any issue dropping Ho-oh/Lugia/Suicune further either, but I think B tier is ok for them. They don't get to see much action during the parts of the game that actually matter and actually obtaining them is inconvenient but they all perform really well in the parts they are available and I think B tier is justifable. I feel similarly about Jynx.

Much like Lucchini mentioned I think Sudowoodo in C is kind of gimping it. Sudowoodo does have some nasty downfalls but it actually has a great movepool to compensate (Low Kick, Rock Slide, Dig / Earthquake via TMs). Though it comes later than Geodude and Onix it probably stands a little better in midgame than the two and then becomes mildly worse late-game.

There might be some other lower tiered Pokemon that could rank higher or lower (e.g. I can't find a reason why Stantler should be in D when Tauros and Miltank are much higher - Stantler is functionally identical to them overall and actually has an advantage in that it's more than twice as common as both of them combined and also comes slightly higher-leveled). But I haven't really gone over the current low tiers thoroughly. It might actually be easier to just leave the lower tiered Pokemon for now and just revisit each one's tiering as they write-ups are submitted rather than try to sort them all out in one go...

I'll probably raise Stantler to B or C pending on how people want to sway the argument. I didn't really notice he was that more mild in comparison to Tauros and co.

Oh, and to comment on Crystal Cubone, I actually think B tier sounds about right for it. STAB Bonemerang at level 25 is just too good even if Cubone is pricey, and at the very least it shouldn't have too much trouble on routes and it has a few good match-ups (Jasmine being its best Johto one by far).

Sounds good.

I think the potential issue is B starts to pile up but I think that's the worst so far. We can discuss others like Slowpoke dropping to C if Psyduck goes to B (and maybe some C mons to D).

 

[Lucchini]

Im willing to listen more to Jolteon and Flareon but... waiting until Level 30 as an Eevee is pretty bleh. At best you can go with Return STAB and Headbutt. Even then Eevee is kind of meh as a combatant. Ill look into it but I think if the trainer is seriously considering Jolteon and Flareon going to the Game Corner ASAP seems mandatory.

Teddiursa also waits until lv. 30 to evolve, but he does have 80 base strength (same as Miltank haha) and Dig access.

This mostly only applies to Jolteon - Flareon can evolve right away and just hit stuff with physical moves (his coverage isn't that great however).

Vaporeon and Staryu can rise up (C anyway). Ill agree to those.

Why only C? They seem quite comparable to Golduck, and have better availability than Suicune in the same tier (one of the really questionable A-tier residents IMHO).

Im thinking Im going to raise Mareep to A. Being the best Electric is a bit more rewarding than being the best Grass-type. This is undermiming that Ampharos has Fire Punch at its disposal and, though meh in Speed and typing resists, it still has good durability to back it up. Nevermind Electric actually is useful offensively throughout the game where Chikorita has really crummy points. Like okay I'll give Grass-type is actually nice against Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types but let's think about this from a realistic standpoint. There are a lot of Pokemon (Flying-, Poison-, Bug-, Steel-, and Grass-types). A lot of these - Poison in particular, are shockingly common throughout the game. I mean at least being the best Electric-type has some meaning in here. Being the best Grass-type is being first in the Special Olympics race.

I think we needn't focus so intensely on who's the best Pokemon of a particular type. Imagine Celebi were playable (okay, his in-game moveset would kinda suck but still), becoming the game's best grass-type in Meganium's place. In Diamond/Pearl, Infernape is the best fire-type, but it's as good as it is because of the qualities it possesses not because it beats Ponyta in the pointless contest for the game's best fire-type.

So we should ask again, is Ampharos really good enough for A-tier and is letting it into the tier lowering the standards for possible future candidates? Because a lot of other Bs would probably want the same position due to not being much (if at all) worse.

And wrt the usefulness of the electric typing offensively - well, so many things learn Thunderpunch, don't they? Typhlosion, Magmar, Alakazam, Gengar, Nidos, Ursaring... You also have Spark Lanturn and Lapras who could always take the Thunder TM for the Rain Dance combo. All of them are faster than Ampharos and bring other appealing qualities to the game.

Steelix, IIRC, still has some credibility here. Onix is about C at the very best here. Onix without trade is good up until about Morty where it sort of falls off into nonexistence. Its offense is crap, its durability gets questionable as the game progresses, and the only real "setup move" it has to help itself is Screech (which has so-so accuracy on top of it).

It might still kill some things as quickly as Geodude due to being way faster. Outspeeding Gastlies in Morty's gym is one of the examples of this utility (and then you just one-shot them with Dig). And you just trade-evolve the thing when it starts getting weak in comparison to your other mons. It's likely your best steel-type in this game, and being a steel-type has never been bad.

My change would be so:

Any particular reason why you (and atsync as well I guess) left out the Nidos out of A tier? I agree their place isn't cemented there but it could probably use some discussion.

Much like Lucchini mentioned I think Sudowoodo in C is kind of gimping it. Sudowoodo does have some nasty downfalls but it actually has a great movepool to compensate (Low Kick, Rock Slide, Dig / Earthquake via TMs). Though it comes later than Geodude and Onix it probably stands a little better in midgame than the two and then becomes mildly worse late-game.

Sudowoodo and Graveler are about even in the lategame I'd say. Sudowoodo has the better typing and actually a strong rock-type move (because relying on Rock Slide sucks).

I think the potential issue is B starts to pile up but I think that's the worst so far. We can discuss others like Slowpoke dropping to C if Psyduck goes to B (and maybe some C mons to D).

Slowbro/king have Surf, Ice Punch and Confusion for fighting-types so I don't see a problem with keeping them in B. Unlike Golem and Ampharos though, you don't have much hope for them outspeeding even the slowest things, but there's always the Quick Claw.

Overall, I find the lack of water-types in A-tier a bit bizarre considering how Surf's availability gives them a huge advantage over any other typing in the game (normal-types need the Friend Ball to achieve a similar neutral damage output). Crystal Starmie, Crystal Vap and Golduck should all be in A, maybe Lapras as well because of natural Ice Beam. The A-waters that nobody seems to have any problem with being there (Wooper, Suicune) are the really questionable ones IMHO.

And I wouldn't worry about some tiers being "too small" or "too big". As long as the Pokemon inside are sorted correctly, that's just the way things really are.

 

[Colonel M]

Why only C? They seem quite comparable to Golduck, and have better availability than Suicune in the same tier (one of the really questionable A-tier residents IMHO).

This is my mistake - I meant Crystal only - not C tier.

So we should ask again, is Ampharos really good enough for A-tier and is letting it into the tier lowering the standards for possible future candidates? Because a lot of other Bs would probably want the same position due to not being much (if at all) worse.

And wrt the usefulness of the electric typing offensively - well, so many things learn Thunderpunch, don't they? Typhlosion, Magmar, Alakazam, Gengar, Nidos, Ursaring... You also have Spark Lanturn and Lapras who could always take the Thunder TM for the Rain Dance combo. All of them are faster than Ampharos and bring other appealing qualities to the game.

While the access to ThunderPunch is still great there is a point that they're also using it as a coverage move - much like Ampharos is with Fire Punch. Though many of those Pokemon are good with it some of them also sport lackluster Special Attack in comparison (Ursaring at 75, Nidoking at 85). Don't get me wrong - these Pokemon are worthy of A tier and a couple other Water-types will likely get up there as well (just need more of a debate behind them). I mean yeah some of these Pokemon are faster than Ampharos, but comparatively are also weaker in damage as well.

Yes Ampharos is slow and defensively Electric isn't -as- useful as Rock / Ground; however, Ampharos boasts a lot of power behind its dual punches (110 base Special Attack) and still has modestly good durability with chances of outspeeding some Pokemon. Input from others aside from Lucchini / Cloverleaf / myself would help (atsync recommends A too). Seems majority leans A Mareep more than B atm though.

It might still kill some things as quickly as Geodude due to being way faster. Outspeeding Gastlies in Morty's gym is one of the examples of this utility (and then you just one-shot them with Dig). And you just trade-evolve the thing when it starts getting weak in comparison to your other mons. It's likely your best steel-type in this game, and being a steel-type has never been bad.

We already know Steelix is good. But Onix without access to trading to evolve it still grows terrible lategame. I mean yeah I guess I could extend its uses up to Jasmine but eventually it gets to the point where it can't really pull its weight anymore with 45 base Attack and needs that evolution to be good (which isn't always available for it per se).

Any particular reason why you (and atsync as well I guess) left out the Nidos out of A tier? I agree their place isn't cemented there but it could probably use some discussion.

I'm on the fence with Nidos.

They're pretty strong but their evolution does require a hell of a detour as well (something that does have a negative impact in a way). One really big issue is aside from Mud Slap it doesn't even get a good STAB until Earthquake late game - which is just before the Elite 4. The versatile moveset helps as well as a good defensive typing (especially against Team Rocket).

It sucks that Nidoking can't even learn Sludge Bomb. Holy shit what was Gamefreak on during development of this game!?!

Sudowoodo and Graveler are about even in the lategame I'd say. Sudowoodo has the better typing and actually a strong rock-type move (because relying on Rock Slide sucks).

For Graveler yes. For Golem - I'd rather use Golem.

Overall, I find the lack of water-types in A-tier a bit bizarre considering how Surf's availability gives them a huge advantage over any other typing in the game (normal-types need the Friend Ball to achieve a similar neutral damage output). Crystal Starmie, Crystal Vap and Golduck should all be in A, maybe Lapras as well because of natural Ice Beam. The A-waters that nobody seems to have any problem with being there (Wooper, Suicune) are the really questionable ones IMHO.

I was a bit in debacle on where the Crystal Starmie and Vaporeon would go (was awaiting further input). Golduck is probably A anyway - just awaiting others' input just in case.

Lapras is kind of a shaky one that I'm on-the-fence with A and B. I really want to say it's A but no one has really made an argument to be A either (at least from what I recall off the top of my head). Wooper is slow but defensively has one of the better typings in the game and offensively isn't slouching either. STAB Dig / Surf really helps Quagsire throughout the game until it gets Earthquake. Ice Punch too.

I think eventually A will look something like this:


A
Cyndaquil
Eevee (Vaporeon) (C)
Geodude (Trade)
Lapras
Magikarp
Magmar
Mareep
Miltank
Psyduck
Spearow
Staryu (C)
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper

Suicune probably will just stick to B. Slowbro seems pretty B too since it is godawful slow.

As for the others I think Jolteon and Flareon have cases to be C but any higher requires a bit more input / testing probably. Flareon is really dependent on TMs (aside from Return) and Jolteon really craves Thunder to get going. I probably will put Stantler to B but will leave open dropping it to C. Poliwrath (C) and Politoed might be A material too but again no one has really said much about these guys either. Poliwrath needs to be Level 35 for STAB Submission - else it's locked to DynamicPunch for Fighting-type STAB. At least Earthquake and Return exist for it? Politoed has good stats behind its Surfs and shit. Both have Ice Punch too.

 

[Lucchini]

I did mention that other users of Thunderpunch have strengths that Ampharos lacks. Everyone sans Ursaring is considerably faster, Ursaring and Nidoking are also potent physical attackers, and just about everyone has superior coverage (Typhlosion and Magmar have the same fire/electric thing going on).

Also, because of the gap between STAB Thunderpunch and STAB Surf, a lot of waters with middling special attack stats will be dealing the same damage (or more) as Ampharos with Thunderpunch. The main point is that sluggish mons should be punished for it, and it should be somehow reflected in the tier list.

Oh wait, I never did claim Onix on his own deserves a tier rise. You didn't specify 'Onix (No Trade)' in the list so I thought both traded and tradeless Onixes are worth the same in your book. Onix may as well stay in D (though he has that earlygame utility going for him). So how about rising Steelix to B or even A tier (He's in C now)? His post-Morty game is far better than Golem's because of that typing - even when both don't have very impressive special defence stats, Steelix can afford to switch into somebody like Will just because he resists just about everything. STAB Iron Tail is also a whole lot stronger than STAB Rock Throw when we talk about a secondary STAB to Earthquake, and Steelix's physical defence is so high that he easily do things like stay in against a fighting or ground type.

Nidoking didn't have a good non-EQ STAB until 3rd gen, so GSC didn't introduce anything new there. In RBY, he relies on coverage moves even more and he always topped the RBY tier lists. He does evolve later and with a bit more difficulty here, but the elemental punches come at no cost at all, and he can be a pretty good user of Icy Wind when up against dragon users and the like.

Lapras's main boon is having two 95 BP STABs (giving it great coverage to boot), STABs that it gets effortlessly might I add. Have a look at the current residents in S/A tiers - not a single one of them can boast the same. Ho-Oh comes a little close with Sacred Fire/Fly, but Fly is "only" 70 BP.

Poliwrath doesn't really deserve A-tier because it's a defensive mon and Submission is such a crap move because of its hit rate, power and recoil. It's not a good alternative to Machamp as a fighter at all. Politoed is also mostly defensive, but has higher special stats to make better use of Surf and Ice Punch. He can also exist in every game as long as you can trade, but it shouldn't affect their tier positions. Poliwrath's only advantage over Politoed is that it gets 10 more base attack for stronger Earthquake (which both can learn).

Flareon's coverage doesn't really have a huge opportunity cost to it. Shadow Ball and Iron Tail aren't highly contested TMs, and Flareon is one of the best users these moves could hope to find. If we can justify Typhlosion getting Fire Blast lategame, then I think we could do the same for Flareon and have him rise to B tier. Jolteon is a lot more limited, sadly.

 

[Random Passerby]

My two cents on these :

Mareep : A rank
Mareep is one of the Pokemon that can actually contribute meaningfully from the moment you obtain it and never really struggles much throughout the game. By Goldenrod, you have Thunder Punch and later, Fire Punch when you hit Lv30, meaning it is never strapped for coverage, especially when you can beat up Swimmers and Water Pokemon from Olivine to Cianwood. Yes, Ampharos is slow but base 55 Speed is not unsalvageable, especially in-game where your opponent has no EVs and probably of a lower level anyway. As for important matches, it wins vs Falkner, Bugsy, Chuck , Jasmine (watch out for Steelix's EQ), Pryce (lose to Piloswine) and has a better match-up against Claire's Kingdra. It can also be relied to deal damage to Whitney and Morty with its decent bulk and strong attacks. In the Elite 4, Ampharos also has an easy time going up against Will and Koga while providing an answer to Lance's Gyarados, Charizard and Aerodactyl.

Lapras : A rank
Lapras, like Mareep is a good Pokemon to use especially in a game where you are handed the Disc One Nuke HM 03 about halfway through the game (after Morty). You'll have Surf by the time you get it so Lapras has a good move to spam right away and it comes at a level which is comparable to your party if you catch it at the first available opportunity. Lapras also comes with Body Slam for neutral coverage and Sing to put foes to sleep so it never struggles for moves until STAB Ice Beam (and you can even use the Icy Wind TM on it if you want to have Speed Control). The only thing holding Lapras back is its bad match-up against the immediate 2 Gyms (Chuck has Super-Effective STAB Primeape and Poliwrath while Magnemite's Thunderbolts will sting if you don't OHKO). Against Pryce, it can win against Piloswine but will struggle to damage Dewgong. However, after the rough patch, it has an easy time against Claire. It can also defeat Will's Xatu, Koga, Karen's Murkrow and Houndoom as well as Lance (watch out for Gyarados). Base 60 Speed is workable and even if Lapras is outsped, it has decent bulk to take those hits anyway.

Suicune (C) : A rank
Suicune comes at Lv40, which is probably above your party by the time you obtain it. You'll also have Surf by the time you get it so Suicune has a good move to spam right away. Suicune also gets the Icy Wind move for Water / Ice coverage and can get Aurora Beam literally one level after you get it. Suicune is also one of the few Waterfall users in GSC, which is a niche it holds over Lapras and Quagsire. By virtue of being a Legendary, Suicune also has great stats across the board and has good match-ups against Claire, Will, Koga, Bruno and Lance. Even if Suicune is walled by Water-types, very few Water trainers exist in the game and you can teach Suicune Strength to have some normal coverage anyway. While it comes late, Suicune's performance in the game warrants an A rank for me.


Ho-oh (G) : A rank
Ho-oh comes at Lv40, which is probably above your party by the time you obtain it. It comes with STAB Sacred Fire and you can teach it Fly so that it can have powerful moves to spam on both offensive ends. Ho-oh also has access to Earthquake which it can use to defeat Rock-types that wall its dual STAB. Ho-oh's great stats also allows it to easily win against Claire and the Elite Four. It only struggles against Lance but Ho-oh's great movepool and good performances warrants an A

By the way, why is Gastly ranked so high? It has no STAB move except Lick (until Morty) and it comes from it's far weaker Attack stat. It also has troubles against Falkner (Mud-Slap), Whitney (Rollout), and Morty (Shadow Ball). Does the coverage from the Elemental Punches carry enough power to last through the game (since you don't have STAB) ?

 

[DHR-107]

Flareon's coverage doesn't really have a huge opportunity cost to it. Shadow Ball and Iron Tail aren't highly contested TMs, and Flareon is one of the best users these moves could hope to find. If we can justify Typhlosion getting Fire Blast lategame, then I think we could do the same for Flareon and have him rise to B tier. Jolteon is a lot more limited, sadly.

Where is the earliest Fire Stone Located? I know you get Eevee in Goldenrod, but I thought the stones were not available until Celadon City (Ie, the very latter part of the game?). Are the stones available much earlier in Crystal?

Pretty much agree with the other changes that have been made so far. I am not sure if Lapras should be as high as A considering you need to get it on a specific day of the week. Probably as close to Magikarps cost as I can think and Gyara is basically god in almost every game.

Are we sure we can get away with having a 2 mon S Tier?

 

[Random Passerby]

Where is the earliest Fire Stone Located? I know you get Eevee in Goldenrod, but I thought the stones were not available until Celadon City (Ie, the very latter part of the game?). Are the stones available much earlier in Crystal?

Pretty much agree with the other changes that have been made so far. I am not sure if Lapras should be as high as A considering you need to get it on a specific day of the week. Probably as close to Magikarps cost as I can think and Gyara is basically god in almost every game.

Are we sure we can get away with having a 2 mon S Tier?

In Crystal, you can get the Fire Stone from Schoolboy Alan (he stands near the Sudowoodo you have to battle). (Abusing the DST is the best way to do this).

As for Lapras, I don't think getting it on a specific day warrants a penalty since you can just change the time anyway. Also, Lapras has significantly higher Special Attack for Surf and can run STAB Ice Beam effectively while Gyarados needs to rely on moves without STAB since it has a dreadful Special Attack stat. That's not to mention Gyarados has a bad movepool in this game.

 

[Colonel M]

The problem with S Tier is that Totodile and Abra (Trade) really stand out. I dont think anyone else can really claim the fame on that.

Random Passerby since we mentioned Ho oh and Suicune - thoughts on Lugia as well?

II also dont see how Poliwrath is really terrible. Unlike Machamp Poliwrath actually has some good moves to coincide with and Submission is more for "just in case" purposes. Accuracy of the move is so so and so is the recoil, but come on even Machamp isnt really rolling that much better (nnegative priority moves, one with a weight requirement, late Cross Chop).

I might concede the drop to B Gastly (Trade) but I wouldn't drop it much lower since it can cheese through the game at certain points.

PS - Steelix B tops. Getting a Metal Coat is still a pain in the ass.

 

[Random Passerby]

Lugia? On paper, it looks decent since it comes at a high level and has STAB Aeroblast but you might want to give it Fly since Aeroblast only has 5 PP. Then, you would choose between Surf / Hydro Pump to give coverage against Rock and Ground types. With Lugia's bulk and Recover, it is easy to see it wins vs Claire (Flying STAB) , Will (Shadow Ball or just spam Flying STAB) , Koga (Fly) and Bruno (Fly + Water moves). Karen is a bad match-up but Lugia wins vs Vileplume and Gengar (and might win vs Houndoom if taught Surf / Hydro Pump). Against Lance, Lugia wins against Charizard and Aerodactyl (if it has Surf) but struggles to do anything against Dragonite (unless taught Icy Wind or Blizzard). Can be A though.

As for Sudowoodo, you get it at Lv20, which is about the same as your team. It has the same match-up as Geodude but Sudowoodo also has Rock Slide which is the strongest Rock-type move in the game (which Geodude doesn't). While it does have almost the same movepool as Geodude (and thus similar match-ups), Sudowoodo doesn't have STAB on Dig / Earthquake in exchange for not being weak to Ice (meaning it takes on Pryce's Dewgong and maybe Will's Jynx better) although still shaky since it has a low Sp. Def. It should be one tier below Geodude though since Geodude is available much earlier and hits harder.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Well after playing through Gold/Silver now like 1000 times I have to say it again: Normal and Water Types, due to Return, STRENGTH(after 3 Badges) and of course, SURF makes any of these super potent ingame (the moment you realize Bidoof would be a god in GSC...)

I finished my Tentacruel / Girafarig / Raticate / Primeape run: Rankings are: A, A-B(more B), C, WORSE THAN MACHOP

 

[Random Passerby]

I'm not too sure about Tauros and Miltank in A though. Sure, you have a nuke in STAB Return (or Strength) but it has horrible match-up issues when you first obtained it. Once you get it, you face Morty, whom you can't touch with your STAB (Miltank might try with Rollout but it's shaky. Tauros's Pursuit won't do shit to Gengar with it's pitiful 40 SpA) . Then, you face Chuck who has a type advantage over you. And right after that, you need to fight Jasmine, who resists your STAB and has high defensive stats. Granted, your match-ups become better after that but the first few hurdles downgrade them to B for me.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

I'm not too sure about Tauros and Miltank in A though. Sure, you have a nuke in STAB Return (or Strength) but it has horrible match-up issues when you first obtained it. Once you get it, you face Morty, whom you can't touch with your STAB (Miltank might try with Rollout but it's shaky. Tauros's Pursuit won't do shit to Gengar with it's pitiful 40 SpA) . Then, you face Chuck who has a type advantage over you. And right after that, you need to fight Jasmine, who resists your STAB and has high defensive stats. Granted, your match-ups become better after that but the first few hurdles downgrade them to B for me.

You do realize however that for ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME they wreck the enemies. Put a Psychic and a water type in your team and you are golden. Please consider that I defeated Red with a ca. level 55 Tauros and Kadabra simply because first is super strong ingame.

(They would honestly be S ranked if they weren't so "bad" for the gyms. That's why they are A in my opinion)

 

[atsync]

Going to assume I'm in the minority here but if I was going to use a Normal-type on my team, I'd much rather use Spearow, Rattata or Sentret, not Tauros or Miltank.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Going to assume I'm in the minority here but if I was going to use a Normal-type on my team, I'd much rather use Spearow, Rattata or Sentret, not Tauros or Miltank.

I played through the game with Raticate / Rattata, I needed to grind it in the beginning to Level 7 and it sucked except in the beginning with OPFang (also it gets Dig and Iron Tail)
Sentret is the worst possible pokemon in the game. I still remember how I regret using it and I reseted the game after I got the 4 Badge. I think Sentret is in Butterfree category of bad.

Spearow is awesome though. Drill Peck Boys (also ingame gift for easy training)