Victini [QC:0/3]

[blinkie]

Analysis approved by Lolk

Overview
########

• Can function as a speed safety net for Trick Room teams that have problems with threats outside of Trick Room
• Unique in that it can both set up and hit hard in Trick Room
• Works well as a nuke against problematic Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Landorus-T, and Escavalier
• Can threaten most Wide Guard users such as Aegislash and Hitmontop
• Has problems against Rain teams as it is threatened by common Rain abusers such as Mega Swampert
• Loses to Mega Camerupt, a common Trick Room Mega, in Trick Room
• Bad defensive typing that stacks common weaknesses with other Trick Room setters, but has good bulk
• Is not too reliable of a main setter, and should be used as a secondary or tertiary setter, with a reliable setter such as Cresselia as the main setter
• Can get past or severely hurt many common Intimidate users
• Finds a somewhat niche use in Trick Room teams, as it is rather under-prepared for
• Can be a fast nuke with Choice Scarf
• Does extremely well against Sun with a Scarf
• Outspeeds and can dent the entire unboosted metagame

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: V-create
move 2: Bolt Strike
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Final Gambit
ability: Victory Star
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

• V-create is Victini's main STAB move and the speed drop is somewhat offset by the use of a Choice Scarf
• Bolt Strike targets Water-types and also hits other threats such as Mega Charizard Y for huge damage
• U-turn lets Victini switch out of bad matchups and bring in the appropriate teammate
• Final Gambit can take down or severely damage a foe, paving the way for a teammate

Set Details
========

• 252 Attack EVs are standard to maximize Victini's power
• 132 HP EVs are possible to net the OHKO on Togekiss with Final Gambit
• 172 HP EVs can be used along with 148 Attack EVs to OHKO Politoed with Final Gambit, but it misses out on the guaranteed OHKO on Aegislash
• 108 HP EVs are possible if the OHKO on Togekiss is not as important, as it will OHKO standard Substitute Heatran
• 188 Attack EVs give Victini as much power as possible behind its main attacking moves
• 252 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature make Victini as fast as possible, although an Adamant nature is possible to ensure KOs on foes such as Mega Charizard Y
• A Choice Scarf can offset the speed drops from V-create and also allows Victini to outspeed faster and frailer threats

Usage Tips
========

• Be cautious of using V-create too much, as it drops Victini's defense and speed, making it easy to revenge kill
• Do not overestimate Victini's capabilities, as it fails to get OHKOs on threats such as Landorus-T and can then be hit back hard
• Try not to reveal Final Gambit too early, as your opponent can take advantage of this to fodder the wrong Pokemon
• If you predict a switch to a foe Victini can't hurt, it is a good idea to use U-turn
• The threat of a V-create can force the use of Protect or a switch, so try and capitalize on this with Victini's partner
• Not revealing Victini's Choice Scarf can potentially pay off later in the game

Team Options
========

• A Feint user such as Hitmontop or Mega Pinsir can be helpful in order to hit foes using Protect trying to scout Victini
• Victini has a very good matchup verus Sun teams but a very bad matchup against Rain teams, so partners such as Mega Abomasnow, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W are recommended
• Victini switches in and out a lot, so a bulky sponge like Escavalier or Hitmontop works well with it
• Intimidate users can reduce Victini's damage output, so partners that can take advantage of this such as Milotic and Bisharp are recommended

Trick Room Attacker
########
name: Trick Room Attacker
move 1: V-create
move 2: Protect
move 3: Bolt Strike
move 4: Zen Headbutt / Taunt / Trick Room
ability: Victory Star
item: Flame Plate
evs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Def
nature: Brave

Moves
========

• Click V-create, watch stuff die, nukes and 2HKOs stuff like Lando-T etc, main nuke move
• Protect for staying alive while partner finishes stuff off
• Bolt Strike hits most bulky waters such as Gyarados but unfortunately cannot hurt Mega Swampert
• Zen Headbutt can be used since it does not have stat drops, but does not hit any important targets, also Bolt Strike hits harder on neutral targets while V-create is stronger even on resists
• Taunt can prevent Trick Room from going up if you don't want it, or can stop annoying moves such as Spore from Breloom
• Trick Room is an option if your team needs more backup Trick Room setters, but its common weaknesses make this hard to do

Set Details
========

• Flame Plate is the preferred item to make V-create as strong as possible, getting the OHKO on Sylveon and Thundurus
• The EVs allow Victini to live Sucker Punch from Life Orb Bisharp
• The rest is dumped into Attack along with a Brave nature to make Victini as strong as possible, the Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs make it faster in Trick Room
• Shuca Berry can be used to tank Earthquakes better, then move the 40 Defense EVs into HP, notably it lets Victini survive Landorus-T's Earthquake after a V-create

Usage Tips
========

• Use V-create on bulky targets your partner cannot break through although keep in mind the stat drops
• Predict the use of Protect on targets expecting V-create and hit the other foe instead
• Use V-create to drop you speed in Trick Room, as it will make you faster
• Although Victini loses to most Rain sweepers, it can still hit some hard with Bolt Strike
• Victini becomes prone to being targeted after too many stat drops so use Protect to take the hits or switch out

Team Options
========

• A reliable answer to Rain teams, such as Mega Abomasnow is mandatory for Victini
• Backup Trick Room setters such as Cresselia and Mega Slowbro are appreciated as this makes Trick Room stay up longer
• Bisharp and other Dark-types threaten Victini, so partners such as Conkeldurr and Mega Mawile who can threaten them work well
• As Victini threatens most Wide Guard users, spread attackers such as Sylveon and Rhyperior make for good teammates
• Bulky teammates that can sponge hits after Victini is forced out such as Escavalier and Cresselia can also be helpful

Other Options
########

• Colbur Berry lets Victini take Sucker Punch better from Mega Kanghaskan and Bisharp
• Grass Knot for Mega Swampert and Gastrodon
• Substitute can help with dodging Sucker Punch and also can be used on predicted Protect from the foe
• Glaciate is a viable option to slow down opponents, however this should not be used in conjunction with Trick Room
• Will-O-Wisp can burn common switch ins such as Mega Swampert

Checks & Counters
########

• **Typing Advantage**: Pokemon such as Mega Swampert and Gastrodon can easily switch in on anything Victini has and then threaten it out with their STAB moves, Rock-types such as Rhyperior and Rhydon can also switch in safely. Mega Camerupt also has an immunity to Bolt Strike and can tank two V-creates safely

• **Opposing Weather**: Rain can mess up Victini as it drastically reduces the damage output of V-create, Victini's main move

• **Intimidate**: Although Victini can get past most Intimidate users, such as Landorus-T, repeated Intimidates especially from bulky Pokemon such as Scrafty will eventually force it out

 

[blinkie]

QC ready, I didn't include some pokemon such as Rotom-W in C&C as they can barely stomach 2 V-creates and die after a bit of prior damage

 

[SpaceBass]

For what its worth, it gets Will-O-Wisp. It allows it to attempt to try burn Megaswamp on the switchin.

 

[Bughouse]

Yeah Victini can do so much more than this TR set viably. Not sure exactly where the rest of QC wants to take this yet, so let us talk it over.

 

[Darkmalice]

Scarf definitely deserves a set

 

[Stratos]

vcreate bolt strike final gambit uturn jolly scarf, it absolutely tears apart sun teams and is useful everywhere else

 

[blinkie]

Ok I will add in the scarf set later today, EV spread is kind of a filler atm

 

[Bughouse]

Tini can also vaguely attempt a bulkier spread with great accuracy on Willo and it also has Glaciate which can be kinda good.

But I'm leaning towards saying this is probably just OO material.

Scarf is legit though. I been using that for about a year, long before it was cool ;P

 

[blinkie]

Ok added in Scarf set, still not really sure about EVs tho

 

[SpaceBass]

The EVs seem fine, they just beat Scarf Genesect for V-Create and Swift Swim Ludi to Final Gambit it if need be.

 

[Bughouse]

Overview
Unique in that it can both set Trick Room AND be a Physical nuke in room
Should not be main way or only way to set room (i.e. only use on full TR, not semi-TR). Needs a primary setter for full TR (you still want something super reliable like Cress or Diancie as the primary setter). Maybe even use Tini as a third setter, with 2 primary setters.
Not particularly slow until you've gotten a V-Create off
Good 100/100/100 bulk but terrible defensive typing

Stuff about Choice Scarf too, since that now has a set.



Trick Room Attacker
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 290-344 (85 - 100.8%)
You forgot to factor in dubs spread reduction. Victini barely needs any bulk to live this hit. I don't know what calc you used...

The strongest hit Tini wants to live is LO Bisharp's Sucker Punch
You definitely want 252 Atk since Tini is there to spam V-Create
Therefore the spread should be imo 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Def Brave
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Victini: 299-354 (84.2 - 99.7%)

Personally I'd like to see Flame Plate be the item:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 294-346 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 352-415 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%)
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 322-381 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 366-432 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Choice Scarf
set is simple and right
even if the set is right, I will probably have comments on the way you've written it up at some point


Other Options
Remove Final Gambit as it's now on the Scarf set
Add Glaciate, which is a cool move
Don't even mention Heat Wave

 

[blinkie]

Overview
Unique in that it can both set Trick Room AND be a Physical nuke in room
Should not be main way or only way to set room (i.e. only use on full TR, not semi-TR). Needs a primary setter for full TR (you still want something super reliable like Cress or Diancie as the primary setter). Maybe even use Tini as a third setter, with 2 primary setters.
Not particularly slow until you've gotten a V-Create off
Good 100/100/100 bulk but terrible defensive typing

Stuff about Choice Scarf too, since that now has a set.



Trick Room Attacker
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 290-344 (85 - 100.8%)
You forgot to factor in dubs spread reduction. Victini barely needs any bulk to live this hit. I don't know what calc you used...

The strongest hit Tini wants to live is LO Bisharp's Sucker Punch
You definitely want 252 Atk since Tini is there to spam V-Create
Therefore the spread should be imo 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Def Brave
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Victini: 299-354 (84.2 - 99.7%)

Personally I'd like to see Flame Plate be the item:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 294-346 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 352-415 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%)
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 322-381 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Flame Plate Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 366-432 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Choice Scarf
set is simple and right
even if the set is right, I will probably have comments on the way you've written it up at some point


Other Options
Remove Final Gambit as it's now on the Scarf set
Add Glaciate, which is a cool move
Don't even mention Heat Wave

lol done now, a bit late cause I forgot...

 

[Darkmalice]

state 0 Spe IVs on the Trick Room set

With Shuca Berry, it's worth noting that it lets you survive Earthquakes even after using V-create, which Victini would otherwise not survive:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. -1 56 HP / 200 Def Victini: 360-426 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (adjusted for Doubles)


I would move that Def on the Scarf set to HP. Lets you OHKO other 100 base HP Pokemon with only 4 HP EVs - you'd hate to miss the KO by 1 point.

In set comments, mention alternate EV spread of 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe in order to outpace Lando-T whilst having more HP for Final Gambit. Max Speed is better though (whilst this spread does OHKO 4 HP Mega Kang and 4 HP Garchomp, Kang will damage you through Fake Out and/or Sucker Punch, and Chomp isn't relevant these days).


I would also swap the order of the two sets, as the Scarf set is more common in higher level / tournament play.

 

[Bughouse]

if we're gonna do a set comments with HP, these are some alternatives: 108 HP / 216 Atk / 184 Spe, which gives it enough HP for a Final Gambit kill on the standard SubTran, while 132 nails Togekiss, and 172 HP ensures you can take out Politoed, which can be awesome if you're in a weather war, and no Bolt Strike doesn't do nearly enough.

I just think once you've made that decision of giving up some power/speed to boost the HP it probably makes sense to go for a specific target and not just "have more HP."

 

[Darkmalice]

132 HP / 188 Atk / 184 Spe I feel would be the best to mention then.

I prefer the above, as sometimes it really helps to get a quick KO on Togekiss before it causes chaos with speed support or Tailwind. Generally I find teams naturally have Pokemon that can quickly threaten Heatran or don't really need it quickly enough to warrant a sac against it; you also get boned if Heatran for some reason runs extra EVs (unlikely though). 172 HP has two problems; Politoed is commonly paired with Ludicolo, and a wise Ludicolo user would typically Fake Out Victini turn 1 in case it's a Scarf set, the second being that with now 148 Atk, it no longer has a guaranteed OHKO on Aegislash with V-create (down to 81.3% chance, which is still high, but if you don't KO, Aegislash can OHKO Victini).

108 HP and 172 HP can still be mentioned with the downsides mentioned. They're more advisable if you really need the aforementioned threats removed ASAP.

 

[blinkie]

Ok implemented the changes

 

[Darkmalice]

Ok implemented the changes

For the record, that spread I made was to be mentioned in Set Comments. The main spread should still be 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

 

[blinkie]

Ok changed

 

[Bughouse]

blinkie

long check

• Can function as a speed safety net for Trick Room teams that have problems with threats outside of Trick Room

not really, TR tini is quite slow with 0 ivs and negative speed nature

• Unique in that it can both set up and hit hard in Trick Room

Unique in doing so /physically/ I believe I mentioned Reuniclus before, and Chandelure kinda counts too. But Tini is the only Physical one.

• Has problems against Rain teams as it is threatened by common Rain abusers such as Mega Swampert

Not quite, Scarf Tini outruns most weather mons, who usually EV to outrun Scarf Lando-T

• 252 Attack EVs are standard to maximize Victini's power
• 132 HP EVs are possible to net the OHKO on Togekiss with Final Gambit
• 172 HP EVs can be used along with 148 Attack EVs to OHKO Politoed with Final Gambit, but it misses out on the guaranteed OHKO on Aegislash
• 108 HP EVs are possible if the OHKO on Togekiss is not as important, as it will OHKO standard Substitute Heatran
• 188 Attack EVs give Victini as much power as possible behind its main attacking moves

^this is all a mess. The options should be the main set: 252 Spe / 252 Atk / 4 HP OR the extra set comment 132 HP / 188 Atk / 184 Spe (which OHKOs Togekiss, still outruns jolly scarf lando-t, and then puts the rest in Atk)
Don't even mention the 108 or 172 HP benchmarks in particular. Just say that Tini can invest even more in HP beyond 132 EVs to gain a few other Final Gambit KOs at the cost of power or speed.

• 252 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature make Victini as fast as possible, although an Adamant nature is possible to ensure KOs on foes such as Mega Charizard Y

No don't even mention Adamant. You don't want to risk being outsped by Jolly Lando-T


Usage Tips
========

• Be cautious of using V-create too much, as it drops Victini's defense and speed, making it easy to revenge kill

No V-Create is the spam move. It's just that you need to switch out at some point.

• Try not to reveal Final Gambit too early, as your opponent can take advantage of this to fodder the wrong Pokemon

I mean, if you reveal it... you're dead. Unless you reveal it on a protect I /guess/

• Not revealing Victini's Choice Scarf can potentially pay off later in the game

Nah, Tini is expected to be scarf usually. Not surprising at all.

Team Options
========

• Victini has a very good matchup verus Sun teams but a very bad matchup against Rain teams, so partners such as Mega Abomasnow, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W are recommended

Nah put the best Rain counter here: KyuB (these work together really, really nicely). Also consider your own Charizard-Y. Sun powers up V-Create even more and helps stop rain, though it type stacks an unfortunate Rock weakness.

• Victini switches in and out a lot, so a bulky sponge like Escavalier or Hitmontop works well with it

It'd be better to put something even bulkier and with recovery here. Maybe Cress or Milotic. Hitmontop can still work nice, but that's for Fake Out and Feint, not bulk really.


Moves
========

• Bolt Strike hits most bulky waters such as Gyarados but unfortunately cannot hurt Mega Swampert

Meh no one cares about Mega Pert. Remove that downside. It's not that common or good.

• Zen Headbutt can be used since it does not have stat drops, but does not hit any important targets, also Bolt Strike hits harder on neutral targets while V-create is stronger even on resists
• Taunt can prevent Trick Room from going up if you don't want it, or can stop annoying moves such as Spore from Breloom
• Trick Room is an option if your team needs more backup Trick Room setters, but its common weaknesses make this hard to do

^Make TR the primary slash and don't downsell it. Tini is bulky enough to live plenty of hits and get it up. Remove Taunt from this set I think. Tini can use it but I don't quite see the point on TR.



Set Details
========

• Flame Plate is the preferred item to make V-create as strong as possible, getting the OHKO on Sylveon and Thundurus
• The EVs allow Victini to live Sucker Punch from Life Orb Bisharp
• The rest is dumped into Attack along with a Brave nature to make Victini as strong as possible, the Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs make it faster in Trick Room
• Shuca Berry can be used to tank Earthquakes better, then move the 40 Defense EVs into HP, notably it lets Victini survive Landorus-T's Earthquake after a V-create

^Slash Safety Goggles on the overall set and talk about it here. Gogs Fire Types are good in general for royally screwing with Spore users and it makes a lot of sense on a TR user too: see Gogs Cress. It can work well for Tini too.
Also explain what you mean by the Shuca Berry EVs comment. Show me the calcs plz since I don't see your point.



Usage Tips
========

• Although Victini loses to most Rain sweepers, it can still hit some hard with Bolt Strike

This is the TR set... who cares about Rain Sweepers

• Victini becomes prone to being targeted after too many stat drops so use Protect to take the hits or switch out

Eh, Tini getting slower from V-Create means its actually going first more often in TR. TR Tini if you're lucky can spam V-Create for 3 or 4 straight moves. Much less of an issue than for scarf set.



Team Options
========

• A reliable answer to Rain teams, such as Mega Abomasnow is mandatory for Victini

Not exactly mandatory, but sure it can work well.

• Backup Trick Room setters such as Cresselia and Mega Slowbro are appreciated as this makes Trick Room stay up longer

No not mega slowbro. And In fact Tini probably wants to be on a team with TWO other TR setters. It probably wants a Cress and one other thing (Diancie?) as Victini is mostly being used to spam V-Create and cannot necessarily be counted on to get TR up.



Other Options
########

• Grass Knot for Mega Swampert and Gastrodon

No. Neither is all that relevant or common. At all.


Checks & Counters
########

• **Typing Advantage**: Pokemon such as Mega Swampert and Gastrodon can easily switch in on anything Victini has and then threaten it out with their STAB moves, Rock-types such as Rhyperior and Rhydon can also switch in safely. Mega Camerupt also has an immunity to Bolt Strike and can tank two V-creates safely

Again... stop with the Mega Pert and Gastro mentions. Replace with Rotom-W. The other mons are fine.

Some other general comments:
TR fire spam can be quite nice, but as TR typically wants Mega Camerupt, TR Tini is probably better used with Ampharos or Mawile (or frankly just Kanga), hence why it's not that commonly seen

Generally upsell the scarf set more I think. Scarfers above 91 speed are nice and ScarfTini has seen some good evidence in its favor recently.

 

[Stratos]

blinkie are we going to have to reassign this one too

srk youll have to take this one if we do because ive never used TR victini because its terrible

 

[blinkie]

blinkie are we going to have to reassign this one too

srk youll have to take this one if we do because ive never used TR victini because its terrible

Yeah I will drop this too

 

[shaian]

probably locked and moved because op is gone

edit: 90% sure i messed up somewhere