I'm actually very excited to see how this will turn out. I know that our immediate assumption is Giratina=OP. Why? Because he's on the f*cking cover of Pokemon Platinum! But, Zygarde is one of the shittiest legendaries out there (take note of arcticuno, regigigas, and phione, as they are also very shitty.) and he's probably the mascot of the upcoming Pokemon games. My point? People are immediately assuming this is crazy because they are putting a legendary mascot into non-Uber competitive use, but in reality, this should have happened a while ago at the end of the banning-spree that happened a few months ago. Giratina checks Megazard Y, Venusaur-M, Serperior, Manectric-M, and Choice-locked Azumarril, and Lando. While not too absurd stats for Ou, they still are able to counter top-tier threats. Unbanning this pokemon will be a better option rather than banning pokemon that get checked/countered by him. Still a bit shaky, I mean, amazing HP and decent offense might mean this will be an offensive pokemon that cannot be taken down, so I hope this doesn't end up as an Aegislash that gets banned directly after unban.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
That will most likely not be true since the thing DOES still have a team around it. The fact that it completely stuffs a lot of the current meta, and has few negatives going for it on pretty much whatever team possible, well... we will have the most dangerous Pokemon to deal with since Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick... except at least Greninja was made out of paper... not so with Giratina who can spread burn, deal high levels of damage, have mixed sets, the hands down best hazard remover, has a great typing and ability, all of which can cater to any single team since it is BETTER than most other options. The thing is nuts. :/
Well I mean except when Zygarde does get a game it will represent, it'll probably have a new form and it'll become a much better Pokemon than it is now, so that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.
And besides, we know that Giratina is the mascot of Pokemon Platinum, and we know that's irrelevant. Kyurem-B is the mascot of Pokemon Black 2. And yet it's manageable in OU. We know it's a legendary, and we know that's irrelevant. We're saying it's broken because it has far too many good qualities especially blanket checking much of the tier while having good bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and being able to put nice little dents in everything with great coverage plus a decent support movepool. Read some other posts but yeah this thing has way too much going for it to be good for the tier.
God bless Haunter and the council for bringing Giratina-O to OU. Let's face it the few hours of Giratina-O meta has been more entertaining than the current meta we had. Giratina brings a new freshness to the really really boring and predictable meta we currently have.
1. Current Meta = You can build a solid team yet 1 Pokemon you can't cover comes in and completely ruins you team, you lack something to take a hit as well as something to scare it off.
2. Giratina-O meta = You can build a Solid team and if you encounter a really difficult Pokemon you can always fall back to Giratina-O as a meatshield and have a chance at the least to still shift momentum and give you a playable chance
I've been saying this for a very long time after the Aegislash ban that what the meta really really needed was a bulky ghost. Ghost typing offensively has few resists, like wise with Defensive wise. The current direction of this meta is headed toward a very boring and bland and unrewarding game where you have a specific set group of Pokemon you have to pick from in order to have even a chance at winning. Giratina-O completely changes that. It expands teambuilding and moves the meta from Match Up based to a 1 Team Can Win All Without Gimmicks, which is in my opinion is a meta leaning toward balance than the current one we have.
In Closing, all those raging over Giratina, just relax and enjoy it while it' s here. Try rebuilding you're team instead of using the same set of 20 WayOverused Pokemon, lots of unviable mega's can now become viable. For example Absol can magic bounce will o wisp/ thunder wave giratina and through the use of protect you can also scout for aurasphere and plan your game accordingly.
Thanks again for the Giratina-O present ^^ I'm very happy :D
1. Current Meta = You can build a solid team yet 1 Pokemon you can't cover comes in and completely ruins you team, you lack something to take a hit as well as something to scare it off.
2. Giratina-O meta = You can build a Solid team and if you encounter a really difficult Pokemon you can always fall back to Giratina-O as a meatshield and have a chance at the least to still shift momentum and give you a playable chance
I've been saying this for a very long time after the Aegislash ban that what the meta really really needed was a bulky ghost. Ghost typing offensively has few resists, like wise with Defensive wise. The current direction of this meta is headed toward a very boring and bland and unrewarding game where you have a specific set group of Pokemon you have to pick from in order to have even a chance at winning. Giratina-O completely changes that. It expands teambuilding and moves the meta from Match Up based to a 1 Team Can Win All Without Gimmicks, which is in my opinion is a meta leaning toward balance than the current one we have.
In Closing, all those raging over Giratina, just relax and enjoy it while it' s here. Try rebuilding you're team instead of using the same set of 20 WayOverused Pokemon, lots of unviable mega's can now become viable. For example Absol can magic bounce will o wisp/ thunder wave giratina and through the use of protect you can also scout for aurasphere and plan your game accordingly.
Thanks again for the Giratina-O present ^^ I'm very happy :D
Alright, I can already tell this has the potential to get ugly. Frankly, I'm not the best player in the world by ANY stretch of the imagination, so someone can probably counter these arguments better than me, especially since it's past midnight here and I don't even know why I'm still awake. So, I'll cherry pick a few things and leave it at that for now.
EDIT: Also, are you sure about that info about Gira-O's usage in Ubers? Because I just checked the Ubers viability ranking thread and it says that Gira-O is A Rank, while Gira-A is C+ Rank. That doesn't explicitly talk about usage, but it raises a few questions. Like, for example, why consider one of the (supposedly) more viable Pokemon in the tier for unbaning instead of something less viable? I mean, I know each tier is different, so what's low tier in Ubers could conceivable be better in OU than something high tier in Ubers would be, but this just seems kind of fishy to me.
Thank you, kind sir. :P
And which OU-viable water type that routinely runs Ice Beam is going to be able to OHKO Giratina? No, I'm asking that as a serious question. I'd really like to know.
Uh, that's not how Knock Off works. Knock Off only gets the damage bonus if the item CAN be removed. And, if you read my whole post, you'll notice that I admit that there are a number of Fairies capable of taking it on.
First off, Giratina doesn't take damage from any kind of Spikes, so that helps it already. Plus, Rest actually can be a pretty good recovery move when combined with Sleep Talk and Calm Mind. Would the name for that set be CroGira?
I was gonna have a longer reply to this section, but after misspelling "quote" as "quatoe" three consecutive times when trying to make the quote tags, I'm not sure that's a really good idea right now. So, what I will say is, with most Pokemon, those arguments would be correct, but when you have well over 400 HP even without investment and decent defenses, it becomes significantly easier to run sets without recovery. I won't say that it's not something that needs to be taken into consideration, and I may have gotten a bit carried away with some of it, but I think it can still be very good in most of those roles. If you can provide replays or other evidence to prove me wrong, I'll certainly concede the point.
EDIT: Also, are you sure about that info about Gira-O's usage in Ubers? Because I just checked the Ubers viability ranking thread and it says that Gira-O is A Rank, while Gira-A is C+ Rank. That doesn't explicitly talk about usage, but it raises a few questions. Like, for example, why consider one of the (supposedly) more viable Pokemon in the tier for unbaning instead of something less viable? I mean, I know each tier is different, so what's low tier in Ubers could conceivable be better in OU than something high tier in Ubers would be, but this just seems kind of fishy to me.
I agree that the meta is limbo stuck, and it's definitely becoming annoying for me, but I don't think this is the best way to fix it. I have no idea what is, so I can't help much there, but something tells me this suspect test is ultimately not gonna accomplish much either.
My apologies, I was actually going for just-plain regular aggressiveness. :P
One-liner posts are prohibited in this thread. Now you have to give yourself an infraction. :)ginganinja
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To be honest I liked a lot this idea to test some Ubers. Kyurem-W could be next I guess. I don't know why people are stressing out so much, though, suspect barely started so everything said is still just theorymon. Maybe Giratina-O can fit OU without centralizing it a lot, in a sense it offers reliable checks to offense while still being a semi-slow mon so it's not really screwing up teams alone. Maybe his combination of movepool + bulkiness + excellent typing is too much.
Now that I think about it, the only ghosts in the current meta are Gengar and Mega Sableye. This could potentially be the bulky ghost XY OU needs, because no matter how good m-sableye is, he still requires your only mega slot.
So yea stop being so skeptical about it and try to adapt your teambuilding once in your life.
edit: didn't realize this is potentially april fools, I hate you all
Now that I think about it, the only ghosts in the current meta are Gengar and Mega Sableye. This could potentially be the bulky ghost XY OU needs, because no matter how good m-sableye is, he still requires your only mega slot.
So yea stop being so skeptical about it and try to adapt your teambuilding once in your life.
edit: didn't realize this is potentially april fools, I hate you all
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Pardon the history lesson but it all ties into my next sentence.
This whole "We shouldn't check broken shit with broken shit" argument is completely ignorant. In the past, this would get brought up quite often because a base stat of 100 was considered solid by OU standard, but then BW came and blew that notion out of the water. All if a sudden speed tiers began changing and there was a power creep with shit like Haxorus in OU and Chandelure in UU along with permanent weather adding power to many mons' moves. Oh, and lets not forget how we decided to finally unban Garchomp, who's speed tier and power were once considered just gamebreaking enough along with its luck-based Sand Veil ability and Mew, who has an absolutely beast movepool and solid stats. After a year or two B2W2 came out and made things even more ridiculous when we decided it was a good idea to allow Kyurem-Black into OU; a mon with a BST of 700 and 170 of that in attack, but since it had a barren physical movepool and everyone decided to slap a choice band on it, people thought it was ok. Of course it turned out to be a lot better than initially expected since people smartened up and decided to have it go mixed instead. On top of this, base 108 speed was known as the standard and powerful ass mons like Tornadus, Landorus, Terrakion, Keldeo, among others roamed OU till the end, except Lando of course.
Now we enter XY, and we get Mega Evo's which completely kick in the door in terms of anything pokemon that we had ever known. We have mons with base 170+ attacking stats and base 130+ speeds roaming around in the beginning until we finally ban M-Lucario, M-Kanga, and M-Gengar (I forget what order) and everything was good for a while. Also, previously banned mons like Thundurus and Excadrill were perfectly manageable in this new meta along with no complex ban on Rain+Swift Swim and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak being legal. Pseudo legendaries were always OU but this was the first time we had any in the lower tiers and that should speak volumes in regards to the power creep. 600 BST pokemon who's stats weren't simply 100 across the board were not seeing enough usage to be in the top tier of play. It didn't last too long until previous broken mons like Deo-D and Genesect saw their way out of OU and newcomers M-Mawile and Aegislash wound up with the same fate. However, a new evil was upon us in the form of ORAS, which brought Ubers to be a "tier" with M-Rayquaza getting hit with the ban hammer, and M-Salamence had people running Scarfed Greninja until that got hit with the Uber stamp of approval. Luckily, some good came out when Greninja finally got banned (good fucking riddance) and the tier began feeling like a nice place to play in. However, new megas formes of Gallade, Diancie, Lopunny, Metagross, Slowbro, and Altaria have been making huge waves with, I think, Mega Metagross receiving a suspect test but ultimately remaining in OU.
Now I haven't been on lately because of irl shit but it sounds like to me things have been a little boring around here and there's a lot of threats to prepare for now and it seems impossible to be ready for the majority of them. Before I went on hiatus I kinda felt the same way because regardless of how nice of a team was built, there were always, not only one, but quite a few mons that could run through it with ease. This finally brings us to this point today where Giratina-O was announced as the new suspect and people have their panties in a bunch and have been posting the same old arguments from previous gens and thinking they still apply when pokemon with base 100 speed was considered the standard and they only had 1 ability. ADV and DPP players are probably going to consider this a tough pill to swallow but the gap in power between Ubers and OU has obviously closed in the generation shifts since Ubers has really only had cover legendaries added to their tier until this gen with all the mega's coming into play. I could be wrong but I feel like the main philosophy for OU has been to test OU mons to see if they were broken instead of testing Ubers mon in OU to see if they weren't broken, and I think the latter is the philosophy we should start taking into heavier consideration because of the shortening gap of power between the main tier of play and its ban list. I hope other previously banned mons from prior gens get a test in OU but that'san estrogen convention a story for a different day.
After playing on the suspect ladder, it's clear that it will take some time to uncover the best set for Giratina-O in OU, just like it took time for people to come up with one for Kyu-B. Spreads for G-O have always been based on the pokemon in Ubers so it's going to be difficult to know what spreads to use aside from typical max/max spreads. Moveset changes are most definitely going to have to happen if it wants to be used to its fullest potential as well. I started out with a DM/Shadow Sneak/WoW/Defog on a bulky offense team and I wasn't doing too well with it and then I got popped by a SubCM perfect coverage G-O and switched mine to that and it has been doing better with that set. I don't think it's a mon you can literally throw on a team to fill a gaping hole and expect it to be fixed, but it definitely can fit on a lot of teams due to its movepool, stats, ability, and typing. Right now, I'm leaning towards it being kept in OU, but we'll see how long that lasts.
TL;DR: The ways of older gens cannot be applied to ORAS due to the decreased gap of power between Ubers and OU, so mons previously deemed uncontrollable by OU standards back in the day can actually feel right at home if given the chance in OU. So people need to let go of the past and stop assuming cover legendaries need to be quickbanned when their stats and movepool rival those of mega's in OU now. Give Giratina an unbiased chance instead of using dumbass arguments like "broken shouldn't check broken" when broken isn't what broken used to be.
This whole "We shouldn't check broken shit with broken shit" argument is completely ignorant. In the past, this would get brought up quite often because a base stat of 100 was considered solid by OU standard, but then BW came and blew that notion out of the water. All if a sudden speed tiers began changing and there was a power creep with shit like Haxorus in OU and Chandelure in UU along with permanent weather adding power to many mons' moves. Oh, and lets not forget how we decided to finally unban Garchomp, who's speed tier and power were once considered just gamebreaking enough along with its luck-based Sand Veil ability and Mew, who has an absolutely beast movepool and solid stats. After a year or two B2W2 came out and made things even more ridiculous when we decided it was a good idea to allow Kyurem-Black into OU; a mon with a BST of 700 and 170 of that in attack, but since it had a barren physical movepool and everyone decided to slap a choice band on it, people thought it was ok. Of course it turned out to be a lot better than initially expected since people smartened up and decided to have it go mixed instead. On top of this, base 108 speed was known as the standard and powerful ass mons like Tornadus, Landorus, Terrakion, Keldeo, among others roamed OU till the end, except Lando of course.
Now we enter XY, and we get Mega Evo's which completely kick in the door in terms of anything pokemon that we had ever known. We have mons with base 170+ attacking stats and base 130+ speeds roaming around in the beginning until we finally ban M-Lucario, M-Kanga, and M-Gengar (I forget what order) and everything was good for a while. Also, previously banned mons like Thundurus and Excadrill were perfectly manageable in this new meta along with no complex ban on Rain+Swift Swim and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak being legal. Pseudo legendaries were always OU but this was the first time we had any in the lower tiers and that should speak volumes in regards to the power creep. 600 BST pokemon who's stats weren't simply 100 across the board were not seeing enough usage to be in the top tier of play. It didn't last too long until previous broken mons like Deo-D and Genesect saw their way out of OU and newcomers M-Mawile and Aegislash wound up with the same fate. However, a new evil was upon us in the form of ORAS, which brought Ubers to be a "tier" with M-Rayquaza getting hit with the ban hammer, and M-Salamence had people running Scarfed Greninja until that got hit with the Uber stamp of approval. Luckily, some good came out when Greninja finally got banned (good fucking riddance) and the tier began feeling like a nice place to play in. However, new megas formes of Gallade, Diancie, Lopunny, Metagross, Slowbro, and Altaria have been making huge waves with, I think, Mega Metagross receiving a suspect test but ultimately remaining in OU.
Now I haven't been on lately because of irl shit but it sounds like to me things have been a little boring around here and there's a lot of threats to prepare for now and it seems impossible to be ready for the majority of them. Before I went on hiatus I kinda felt the same way because regardless of how nice of a team was built, there were always, not only one, but quite a few mons that could run through it with ease. This finally brings us to this point today where Giratina-O was announced as the new suspect and people have their panties in a bunch and have been posting the same old arguments from previous gens and thinking they still apply when pokemon with base 100 speed was considered the standard and they only had 1 ability. ADV and DPP players are probably going to consider this a tough pill to swallow but the gap in power between Ubers and OU has obviously closed in the generation shifts since Ubers has really only had cover legendaries added to their tier until this gen with all the mega's coming into play. I could be wrong but I feel like the main philosophy for OU has been to test OU mons to see if they were broken instead of testing Ubers mon in OU to see if they weren't broken, and I think the latter is the philosophy we should start taking into heavier consideration because of the shortening gap of power between the main tier of play and its ban list. I hope other previously banned mons from prior gens get a test in OU but that's
After playing on the suspect ladder, it's clear that it will take some time to uncover the best set for Giratina-O in OU, just like it took time for people to come up with one for Kyu-B. Spreads for G-O have always been based on the pokemon in Ubers so it's going to be difficult to know what spreads to use aside from typical max/max spreads. Moveset changes are most definitely going to have to happen if it wants to be used to its fullest potential as well. I started out with a DM/Shadow Sneak/WoW/Defog on a bulky offense team and I wasn't doing too well with it and then I got popped by a SubCM perfect coverage G-O and switched mine to that and it has been doing better with that set. I don't think it's a mon you can literally throw on a team to fill a gaping hole and expect it to be fixed, but it definitely can fit on a lot of teams due to its movepool, stats, ability, and typing. Right now, I'm leaning towards it being kept in OU, but we'll see how long that lasts.
TL;DR: The ways of older gens cannot be applied to ORAS due to the decreased gap of power between Ubers and OU, so mons previously deemed uncontrollable by OU standards back in the day can actually feel right at home if given the chance in OU. So people need to let go of the past and stop assuming cover legendaries need to be quickbanned when their stats and movepool rival those of mega's in OU now. Give Giratina an unbiased chance instead of using dumbass arguments like "broken shouldn't check broken" when broken isn't what broken used to be.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
I'm fairly certain this is a joke, given that Giritina-O is A-ranked in Ubers, but if not, then I think we should really examine the concept of "If Pokemon x holds item y, then it is allowed in OU."
It's not a slippery slope, as Giratina-O is a seperate mon a la the Rotoms and Shaymin-S. It just so happens that it requires a specific item to stay in that forme.
"After removing from the metagame numerous offensive powerhouses, we realized that the time had come to invert the course. Presently, the OU metagame is stale and the abundance of defensively oriented teams led us to believe that a mixed attacker with great defensive and offensive typing will probably give back some vivacity to the tier."
I support the cause but Giratina-O is in no way accomplishing that. It's mixed stats 120/120 aren't THAT good considering it can't hold a life orb. It will have a hard time against the likes of Cleff and Ferrothorn and is likely to suffer from severe 4MSS(Tbolt for Azu, HP Fire for Ferro, EQ for Heatran, Dragon STAB, Ghost STAB, possibly Defog and so on). On the other hand, it's bulk is simply too good and support moves like WoW,Dtail, and Defog is just going to make this thing another Defensive behemoth leading to an even more defensive metagme.
I support the cause but Giratina-O is in no way accomplishing that. It's mixed stats 120/120 aren't THAT good considering it can't hold a life orb. It will have a hard time against the likes of Cleff and Ferrothorn and is likely to suffer from severe 4MSS(Tbolt for Azu, HP Fire for Ferro, EQ for Heatran, Dragon STAB, Ghost STAB, possibly Defog and so on). On the other hand, it's bulk is simply too good and support moves like WoW,Dtail, and Defog is just going to make this thing another Defensive behemoth leading to an even more defensive metagme.
I think Giratina-O would be a fantastic addition to the OU metagame. Now I'll be honest, when I first saw the post, I thought it was an early April Fool's joke. Not only have we been on a trend for only banning pokes from OU and never bringing them back, but of all the pokes to bring back a poke with amazing 150/100/100 bulk and fantastic typing seemed a little far'fetched. However, after doing some research and reading up on Giratina-O, it really makes good sense.
Firstly, Giratina-O is severely limited in its moveset options due to its small movepool as well as its limitation to only using a Griesous Orb, an item which is essentially a weaker Life Orb. Not to mention Giratina, despite having fantastic bulk lacks and reliable form of recovery due to lack of leftovers as well as hp restoring moves such as recover/roost. It's only method of recovering is either rest, which leaves you vulnerable to being gimped by a Bisharp or some other set-up sweeper that can OHKO it, or Pain Split, which given its 150 HP, is almost always disadvantageous. Thus Giratina can really only be used as a tank, and not a wall by any means. In addition, Giratina-O is easy set-up fodder for the likes of Clefable, which does not care about Draco Meteors or being burned. Not to mention in the case of Shadow Ball: 252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Thus guaranteeing Clefable 1 Calm Mind and a Soft-Boiled. Thus Clefable can easily outpace Giratina's Shadow Balls with Calm Minds and Soft-Boileds. On the other side of the coin, Giratina has fantastic 120/120 offensive stats, which with its mandatory Griesous Orb, makes its Draco Meteor hit quite hard, as well as make its Shadow Ball a generally spammable move. Alas, Giratina has crippling flaws in the offensive department as well, due to its mediocre 90 Speed stat, and its lack of access to speed boosting moves or a Choice Scarf makes revenge-killing it quite easy. In addition, despite Giratina hitting like a truck, Latios hits even more so like a truck, with Latios's Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor hitting harder than Giratina-O's, and Latios is far faster, being in the 110 Speed Tier where most threats are these days.
Now that I've laid out all of Giratina-O's flaws that make it worthy of being brought down a tier, I will lay out all the aspects that make Giratina-O a good poke for OU. Firstly, Giratina-O serves as a check, and in some cases a counter, to a huge number of threats in OU, including Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Charizard-Y, Volcarona and many others. 3 of those threats are S-Ranks, and 1 of those threats, namely Landorus-I really lacks any good counters in OU. With Giratina-O in OU, many of these threats would have an answer which currently there are few and far between for many of them. Giratina-O would make balance-style team-building much easier as many of the most common threats could be dealt with using Giratina-O. In addition many of the lesser used pokes in OU may rise as additional methods of dealing with Giratina-O such as Weavile or Mega Absol, for those who don't use bulky fairies or Bisharp. Ultimately, Giratina-O would stabilize the metagame significantly, while eliminating the need to ban pokes such as Landorus-I. Overall, I think this is a good Suspect Test choice if nothing else, and I'm excited to see how it plays out on the ladder.
Firstly, Giratina-O is severely limited in its moveset options due to its small movepool as well as its limitation to only using a Griesous Orb, an item which is essentially a weaker Life Orb. Not to mention Giratina, despite having fantastic bulk lacks and reliable form of recovery due to lack of leftovers as well as hp restoring moves such as recover/roost. It's only method of recovering is either rest, which leaves you vulnerable to being gimped by a Bisharp or some other set-up sweeper that can OHKO it, or Pain Split, which given its 150 HP, is almost always disadvantageous. Thus Giratina can really only be used as a tank, and not a wall by any means. In addition, Giratina-O is easy set-up fodder for the likes of Clefable, which does not care about Draco Meteors or being burned. Not to mention in the case of Shadow Ball: 252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Thus guaranteeing Clefable 1 Calm Mind and a Soft-Boiled. Thus Clefable can easily outpace Giratina's Shadow Balls with Calm Minds and Soft-Boileds. On the other side of the coin, Giratina has fantastic 120/120 offensive stats, which with its mandatory Griesous Orb, makes its Draco Meteor hit quite hard, as well as make its Shadow Ball a generally spammable move. Alas, Giratina has crippling flaws in the offensive department as well, due to its mediocre 90 Speed stat, and its lack of access to speed boosting moves or a Choice Scarf makes revenge-killing it quite easy. In addition, despite Giratina hitting like a truck, Latios hits even more so like a truck, with Latios's Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor hitting harder than Giratina-O's, and Latios is far faster, being in the 110 Speed Tier where most threats are these days.
Now that I've laid out all of Giratina-O's flaws that make it worthy of being brought down a tier, I will lay out all the aspects that make Giratina-O a good poke for OU. Firstly, Giratina-O serves as a check, and in some cases a counter, to a huge number of threats in OU, including Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Charizard-Y, Volcarona and many others. 3 of those threats are S-Ranks, and 1 of those threats, namely Landorus-I really lacks any good counters in OU. With Giratina-O in OU, many of these threats would have an answer which currently there are few and far between for many of them. Giratina-O would make balance-style team-building much easier as many of the most common threats could be dealt with using Giratina-O. In addition many of the lesser used pokes in OU may rise as additional methods of dealing with Giratina-O such as Weavile or Mega Absol, for those who don't use bulky fairies or Bisharp. Ultimately, Giratina-O would stabilize the metagame significantly, while eliminating the need to ban pokes such as Landorus-I. Overall, I think this is a good Suspect Test choice if nothing else, and I'm excited to see how it plays out on the ladder.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Rotom and Shaymin don't require a held item to change forme. Can you really unban Giratina holding a Griseous Orb but not its base forme?
Don't think that I am completely reciting a post but sorry if i missed a post or 2.
Anyways, I think that we are looking at this suspect in the wrong way. Giratina-O shoudn't be unbanned because it is another check to lando i and keldeo. It should be unbanned because it is not broken, with those traits mentioned being bonuses (albeit really big ones). I am not saying giratina-o is broken because that is not true in the slightest. Pretty much gonna repeat the fact that giratina is underwhelming (I used shadow ball/draco/shadow sneak/roar for the moveset if that means anything). I really did not expect too much from giratina, but it just doesn't put in work in the ~15 matches I have played with it. One of the reasons is that, while people are like, "oh yay lando-i and keldeo check," people don't realize that it loses to some common threats. It loses to bisharp if it doesn't have Aura Sphere, which I don't think the 3 attack sets can fit in, same thing with ttar, did I mention it can be pursuit trapped? Although there are a lot of things that Giratina disappointed me with, there are a few things that are pretty cool about it. Obviously having pretty much the mon that has the greatest chance of beating lando is nice, and beating non-subcm keldeos is another good trait. As for the 150 hp, it's nice although I heavily heavily disagree with people saying this thing doesn't die. Also I don't see how this is a joke in any way, considering that it isn't broken in the slightest. I feel that i had too high expectations for gira-o and it didn't meet said expectations, it is still a pretty good mon of course, but not a total monster that destroys everything(well at least figuratively).
Yes this is a pretty similar post to other no-ban posts, but there isn't really much to argue considering this is the first day lol. Also, I was shocked how teambuilding is pretty much unchanged from a normal team. I mean yeah you have to take into account giratina o and run a clefable/bisharp/ttar usually, but it's not like those are bad mons that doesn't fit on nearly every team archetype.
Sorry if this is a bad post although I don't think of it as one.
Anyways, I think that we are looking at this suspect in the wrong way. Giratina-O shoudn't be unbanned because it is another check to lando i and keldeo. It should be unbanned because it is not broken, with those traits mentioned being bonuses (albeit really big ones). I am not saying giratina-o is broken because that is not true in the slightest. Pretty much gonna repeat the fact that giratina is underwhelming (I used shadow ball/draco/shadow sneak/roar for the moveset if that means anything). I really did not expect too much from giratina, but it just doesn't put in work in the ~15 matches I have played with it. One of the reasons is that, while people are like, "oh yay lando-i and keldeo check," people don't realize that it loses to some common threats. It loses to bisharp if it doesn't have Aura Sphere, which I don't think the 3 attack sets can fit in, same thing with ttar, did I mention it can be pursuit trapped? Although there are a lot of things that Giratina disappointed me with, there are a few things that are pretty cool about it. Obviously having pretty much the mon that has the greatest chance of beating lando is nice, and beating non-subcm keldeos is another good trait. As for the 150 hp, it's nice although I heavily heavily disagree with people saying this thing doesn't die. Also I don't see how this is a joke in any way, considering that it isn't broken in the slightest. I feel that i had too high expectations for gira-o and it didn't meet said expectations, it is still a pretty good mon of course, but not a total monster that destroys everything(well at least figuratively).
Yes this is a pretty similar post to other no-ban posts, but there isn't really much to argue considering this is the first day lol. Also, I was shocked how teambuilding is pretty much unchanged from a normal team. I mean yeah you have to take into account giratina o and run a clefable/bisharp/ttar usually, but it's not like those are bad mons that doesn't fit on nearly every team archetype.
Sorry if this is a bad post although I don't think of it as one.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
You know I tried to keep quiet here, but for the first time ever I will post.
For those that don't know me I am Omari P / Omari P alt, currently ranked like top 20 ish on the ladder
Normally for the smogon bans, I try to understand where people come from and I come to realize, most of you are bitches. Please excuse my language, but hear me out. Many of the previous bans extend from a mon being able to run many sets and people not knowing what it has. But you know who also can do that? Mew/Victini/Celebi/Gard/Altaria/ etc. A lot of mons. In fact aegislash was wrong fully banned because people didn't want to straegize. They just wanted to draco something and win. But anyway back to the topic at hand. The main mons people seem to have a problem with are Lando-I and mega-metagross. I see the issue with Lando-I as it's a huge threat, however it became a huge threat because of the banning of the teenage mutant ninja. Now I agree with it's ban, however we must realize that when you ban something, others rise. Now on to my analysis
Analysis of The current Metagame
The current metagame is unbalanced as most would agree. However this is due to the presence of many broken mons that no one talks about ( I'm looking directly at you mega lopunny, mega slowbro, and mega metagross). I know it's fun to use broken mons but jesus christ these arguments are mostly "use ___" or use "____." If I'm forced to use a mon just so that little shit wont 6-0 my team, don't you think that's a little... idk.. over centralizing to the point where everyone is using the same mons. That's where the game is headed if this continues. Bringing a mon down that is A+ in ubers seems ridiculous imo. And for what? To check 2/3rds of the metagame. Since when did that become a thing? Oh yea people don't want to talk about how broken a mon is so let's bring down a mon from ubers. I'm waiting on the day when mons like darkrai are brought into ou and people have the argument "We have fairy types now and blah blah blah." Have of these arguments are garbage and to be honest I haven't said much fact either so I will do that below.
Reason Why This Shouldn't Be In OU
1) There is 0 Drawback for using this mon
2) Unlike most tanks and walls in the game, Giratina is NOT passive. It can take many hits and oko right back. 120/120/90 isn't bad at all. And you know who else has stats like that genesect. YUP.
3) No reliable recovery doesn't matter for most sets - If you run bulky ( max HP) almost nothing in the tier can oko you bar latios, and little can 2hko oyu.
The calm mind will run the tier, as it does right now in the suspect
4) No Good comes from this move other than a massive use of mega aud ( checks it)
5) No pokemon on a team should check a good opponents entire team. NO POKEMON
6) Limits team building? This shit limits play styles, team building, enjoyment, hax rolls, crit misses, global warming, etc. NO reason to be in Ou
7 With this logic we should also bring down palkia, ho-oh, darkrai, zekrom,deoxys-d, mewtwo , lugia, the entire cast of glee, and the survivors of the uchiha clan just because they should shake the meta game up.
8) the suspect test tier is god awful. This isn't even bias, it's objectively unenjoyable and terrible
Well that's all i have to say. I hope this is a joke, if not I've lost faith in half the community. Thank you
Also P.S. #MEGASABLEYESUSPECT2K15
For those that don't know me I am Omari P / Omari P alt, currently ranked like top 20 ish on the ladder
Normally for the smogon bans, I try to understand where people come from and I come to realize, most of you are bitches. Please excuse my language, but hear me out. Many of the previous bans extend from a mon being able to run many sets and people not knowing what it has. But you know who also can do that? Mew/Victini/Celebi/Gard/Altaria/ etc. A lot of mons. In fact aegislash was wrong fully banned because people didn't want to straegize. They just wanted to draco something and win. But anyway back to the topic at hand. The main mons people seem to have a problem with are Lando-I and mega-metagross. I see the issue with Lando-I as it's a huge threat, however it became a huge threat because of the banning of the teenage mutant ninja. Now I agree with it's ban, however we must realize that when you ban something, others rise. Now on to my analysis
Analysis of The current Metagame
The current metagame is unbalanced as most would agree. However this is due to the presence of many broken mons that no one talks about ( I'm looking directly at you mega lopunny, mega slowbro, and mega metagross). I know it's fun to use broken mons but jesus christ these arguments are mostly "use ___" or use "____." If I'm forced to use a mon just so that little shit wont 6-0 my team, don't you think that's a little... idk.. over centralizing to the point where everyone is using the same mons. That's where the game is headed if this continues. Bringing a mon down that is A+ in ubers seems ridiculous imo. And for what? To check 2/3rds of the metagame. Since when did that become a thing? Oh yea people don't want to talk about how broken a mon is so let's bring down a mon from ubers. I'm waiting on the day when mons like darkrai are brought into ou and people have the argument "We have fairy types now and blah blah blah." Have of these arguments are garbage and to be honest I haven't said much fact either so I will do that below.
Reason Why This Shouldn't Be In OU
1) There is 0 Drawback for using this mon
2) Unlike most tanks and walls in the game, Giratina is NOT passive. It can take many hits and oko right back. 120/120/90 isn't bad at all. And you know who else has stats like that genesect. YUP.
3) No reliable recovery doesn't matter for most sets - If you run bulky ( max HP) almost nothing in the tier can oko you bar latios, and little can 2hko oyu.
The calm mind will run the tier, as it does right now in the suspect
4) No Good comes from this move other than a massive use of mega aud ( checks it)
5) No pokemon on a team should check a good opponents entire team. NO POKEMON
6) Limits team building? This shit limits play styles, team building, enjoyment, hax rolls, crit misses, global warming, etc. NO reason to be in Ou
7 With this logic we should also bring down palkia, ho-oh, darkrai, zekrom,deoxys-d, mewtwo , lugia, the entire cast of glee, and the survivors of the uchiha clan just because they should shake the meta game up.
8) the suspect test tier is god awful. This isn't even bias, it's objectively unenjoyable and terrible
Well that's all i have to say. I hope this is a joke, if not I've lost faith in half the community. Thank you
Also P.S. #MEGASABLEYESUSPECT2K15
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Except genesect had download, u-turn, and could hold a choice scarf. Not really a good ban argument there.
We can't really judge giratina by it's base stats, weaknesses, movepool, or anything.. what we can judge is the combination of versatile movepool, excellent typing, great ability, and high base stats that put him over the edge. As well as generally being a major dominate force that ruins the viability of 80% of the pokemon in OU.
It's the package of the pokemon itself, not specific traits it shares with another.
Since april fools is soon i was really laughing but apparently it is true, true or not it's actually a good thing to think about and I after giving some thoughts about it, i'm glad that smogon finds a way to balance a metagame without talking about that BS Aegislash mon, an unban of Giratina is actually is good initiative and i wasn't aware of it at all.
Looking back at it, Giratina will be decent in the metagame but not amazing : quite slow, no recovery, defogger weak to pursuit, can't snowball because clefable/altaria etc will wall/outdamage it...it's like a CMSableye with a really crappy recovery move but a tspikes resistance. I'm not a fan of the fact that rapid spinn is dead with that mon since Tentacruel / Starmie are not doing anything to it, but i think this mon is absolutely not broken in the metagame at the moment.
I don't agree with the fact that Giratina-O will be a great check to Zard-Y / Lando-I though. Without rest, The mild/rash mixed will take a crapload on fire blast / dragon pulse (it's stupid in this meta but it might 2HKO too lazy to calc). Lando-i can 3HKO with psychic/ 2HKO with cm the mild set too. I know that i am talking about the mixed set only but the spD wouldn't have any utility in this meta : no leftovers, no recovery since restalk+defog = dead coverage so a mixed/offensive defog might be the best set, and you can't check jack with that kind of set.
Serperior is not really threatening and i'd rather have a way to not play ferrothorn every team to check Diancie rather than having another check to it.
I'm not against an unban to be honest.
Looking back at it, Giratina will be decent in the metagame but not amazing : quite slow, no recovery, defogger weak to pursuit, can't snowball because clefable/altaria etc will wall/outdamage it...it's like a CMSableye with a really crappy recovery move but a tspikes resistance. I'm not a fan of the fact that rapid spinn is dead with that mon since Tentacruel / Starmie are not doing anything to it, but i think this mon is absolutely not broken in the metagame at the moment.
I don't agree with the fact that Giratina-O will be a great check to Zard-Y / Lando-I though. Without rest, The mild/rash mixed will take a crapload on fire blast / dragon pulse (it's stupid in this meta but it might 2HKO too lazy to calc). Lando-i can 3HKO with psychic/ 2HKO with cm the mild set too. I know that i am talking about the mixed set only but the spD wouldn't have any utility in this meta : no leftovers, no recovery since restalk+defog = dead coverage so a mixed/offensive defog might be the best set, and you can't check jack with that kind of set.
Serperior is not really threatening and i'd rather have a way to not play ferrothorn every team to check Diancie rather than having another check to it.
I'm not against an unban to be honest.
Firstly, the viability of a mon in Ubers should never have any bearing on whether said mon should be allowed in OU. For example, Klefki is a solid A rank in Ubers but is allowed in OU, while Reshiram is in C- rank and is Uber. Secondly, Giratina-A and Giratina-O are considered separate Pokemon, as Karxrida stated. Unbanning Giratina holding a Griseous Orb is unbanning Giratina-O but keeping Giratina-A banned, hence why it's not a complex ban.
Also, I can say with near certainty that this is not an April Fool's joke. It's just a case of horrifically bad timing. Besides, they would have waited until April 1st if it really was a joke.
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A quick update.
Giratina is not as broken in the OU metagame as I originally believed. I'm currently 10-0 on the suspect ladder. Throughout these games, Pokemon that would usually run through my team with ease, now need to tread carefully. (A great example is Metagross. Another GREAT example: Landorus-I/T.)
This does not mean Giratina can freely switch in whenever it feels like. There are still a lot of things Gira needs to worry about. I've run into problems with Scarf-Tar, Lati@s, Metagross, (Especially after a boost.) speedy Dragons, and some forms Heatran. (Depending on the set you're running, Heatran may or may not be a major problem.) So the picture that many users have been painting of Giratina as this "great unstoppable wall" that can essentially switch into anything it pleases isn't necessarily true. However, do not mistake or underestimate Giratina because of this. Playing against Giratina is a challenge. It's coverage is un-resisted. It is versatile. It is a Pokemon that keeps the opponent thinking and on his (or her) toes at all times. I can't help but wonder if that's a bad thing... or if that's what this game was all about in the first place.
I will say that I am glad that Landorus, Keldeo, Jirachi, Breloom, Celebi and friends aren't exactly unstoppable thorns in my side at the moment. However, I am a bit worried that these same Pokemon will see a severe decline in usage. I can't say what my opinion is for a fact yet. I'm still not sure if this is some kind of twisted joke... but if it isn't, I would potentially like to see more of this. I believe a decent amount of Pokemon this generation were unjustly banned and it made the meta incredibly stale in my opinion. This may be just what the meta needs after all.
tl;dr - I don't know if Giratina is unhealthy for the meta atm. I do know however that this is the most fun I have had laddering in ages.
(Here is a quick replay for anyone that is interested in the type of team i've been running with Giratina. Very close match that shot me up to 10-0. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221700629)
Giratina is not as broken in the OU metagame as I originally believed. I'm currently 10-0 on the suspect ladder. Throughout these games, Pokemon that would usually run through my team with ease, now need to tread carefully. (A great example is Metagross. Another GREAT example: Landorus-I/T.)
This does not mean Giratina can freely switch in whenever it feels like. There are still a lot of things Gira needs to worry about. I've run into problems with Scarf-Tar, Lati@s, Metagross, (Especially after a boost.) speedy Dragons, and some forms Heatran. (Depending on the set you're running, Heatran may or may not be a major problem.) So the picture that many users have been painting of Giratina as this "great unstoppable wall" that can essentially switch into anything it pleases isn't necessarily true. However, do not mistake or underestimate Giratina because of this. Playing against Giratina is a challenge. It's coverage is un-resisted. It is versatile. It is a Pokemon that keeps the opponent thinking and on his (or her) toes at all times. I can't help but wonder if that's a bad thing... or if that's what this game was all about in the first place.
I will say that I am glad that Landorus, Keldeo, Jirachi, Breloom, Celebi and friends aren't exactly unstoppable thorns in my side at the moment. However, I am a bit worried that these same Pokemon will see a severe decline in usage. I can't say what my opinion is for a fact yet. I'm still not sure if this is some kind of twisted joke... but if it isn't, I would potentially like to see more of this. I believe a decent amount of Pokemon this generation were unjustly banned and it made the meta incredibly stale in my opinion. This may be just what the meta needs after all.
tl;dr - I don't know if Giratina is unhealthy for the meta atm. I do know however that this is the most fun I have had laddering in ages.
(Here is a quick replay for anyone that is interested in the type of team i've been running with Giratina. Very close match that shot me up to 10-0. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221700629)
Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
It WOULD of been a bit obvious if they did it on april 1st, though.
yea the viability of a mon in a different metagame with a different set of pokemon shouldnt be accounted for here.
leremyju
Banned deucer.
I've laddered a bit and I can say this metagame is cancer for both balanced and stall. Giratina O fails to shine vs offense. It gets worn down and lacks reliable recovery and there are many stronger and faster pokemon that beat it on HO and offense in general. However it terrorizes balance. It cockblocks spinners like Excadrill and Starmie, the latter common to check Keldeo on balance. It also freely spreads Will o Wisp on slower pokemon. I haven't used stall on the ladder because that's gay, so I don't know Giratina vs stall matchup.
EDIT: some people saying Giratina O helps teambuilding. What do we give up to have an easier time teambuilding? Is this not the essence of "broken checking broken". I've said this a billion times (AM even deleted a post of mine saying it), if there are certain pokemon restricting teamguilding (Mmeta, lando I) maybe we should suspect those instead of Giratina. Now I know this suspect is about Giratina and not other pokemon, but idk why the council thinks this is the right step for the metagame because it isn't.
EDIT: some people saying Giratina O helps teambuilding. What do we give up to have an easier time teambuilding? Is this not the essence of "broken checking broken". I've said this a billion times (AM even deleted a post of mine saying it), if there are certain pokemon restricting teamguilding (Mmeta, lando I) maybe we should suspect those instead of Giratina. Now I know this suspect is about Giratina and not other pokemon, but idk why the council thinks this is the right step for the metagame because it isn't.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
Dude calm mind giratina destroys clefable, and alataria loses to iron head set. It can't even oko with +1 return if running max HP.
All base 680 stat total Box Legendaries start out banned unless we unban them. Kyurem-B is an example, which was suspected and unbanned in Gen V during the BW2 meta.
I encountered this thing on the ladder a few times and i've seen enough to establish an initial stance.
This thing is busted. Even though it could probably be thrown on a defensively balanced team or even a stall team with good effect, it's the offensive sets that stand out as ridiculous to deal with. First off, Griseous Orb isn't a waste of an item as it gives G-O a pseudo life orb boost(x1.2) to its STABs. Normally this would be far inferior to Life Orb because of the lack of power behind coverage moves, but G-O is capable of destroying so much with its STABs alone. A mixed set with Draco Meteor/Dragon Claw and Shadow Force/Shadow Ball is excellent for punching holes in a team, while leaving room for whatever coverage moves or utility moves best fit your team. It's already known that STAB ghost is difficult to handle from a defensive standpoint, especially for balanced and offensive teams as demonstrated by Aegislash and Gengar. G-O has about as much power behind its ghost STAB as its supposed competition, backed by an even more powerful dragon STAB and excellent mixed stats giving it a closer resemblance to Aegislash.
Something interesting that was mentioned on a previous page is that G-O's raw stats + Griseous Orb give it roughly the same defensive and offensive numbers as the pseudo 50/150/150/150/150/60 stats Aegislash is claimed to have. Added benefits include having zero dependency on HP EVs, greater speed, no stance BS and an overall better movepool. Downsides include item restriction and an arguably worse typing (?). I severely underestimated G-O's base stats, which resulted in tragedy when I first encountered it on the ladder. The following happened, which ultimately resulted in a loss for me:
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 157-186 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- did like 38% aka 0
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 322-381 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- got easily ohko'd after recoil
I also found out the hard way that Shadow Force bypasses protect lol. I'm well aware that G-O's strongest STABs have downsides, though I don't think Shadow Force's 2-turn mechanic is all that bad considering it ignores protect, hits incredibly hard and has few switch-ins in and of itself. G-O still has the option of falling back on its 80 BP and priority STABs, all of which are reliable and powerful. You could even run stuff like offensive RestTalk w/ Shadow Claw and Dragon Tail and have it put in serious work vs half the tier. Because I actually encountered it and had like zero switchins to f'ing Shadow Claw other than Clefable who was almost 2HKO'd by it anyway.
Call this a knee jerk reaction, but I was originally accepting of the idea of a Giratina-O suspect. And I still support the idea, don't get me wrong. I just think the subject in question has no business in OU. More thoughts to come at a later time.
This thing is busted. Even though it could probably be thrown on a defensively balanced team or even a stall team with good effect, it's the offensive sets that stand out as ridiculous to deal with. First off, Griseous Orb isn't a waste of an item as it gives G-O a pseudo life orb boost(x1.2) to its STABs. Normally this would be far inferior to Life Orb because of the lack of power behind coverage moves, but G-O is capable of destroying so much with its STABs alone. A mixed set with Draco Meteor/Dragon Claw and Shadow Force/Shadow Ball is excellent for punching holes in a team, while leaving room for whatever coverage moves or utility moves best fit your team. It's already known that STAB ghost is difficult to handle from a defensive standpoint, especially for balanced and offensive teams as demonstrated by Aegislash and Gengar. G-O has about as much power behind its ghost STAB as its supposed competition, backed by an even more powerful dragon STAB and excellent mixed stats giving it a closer resemblance to Aegislash.
Something interesting that was mentioned on a previous page is that G-O's raw stats + Griseous Orb give it roughly the same defensive and offensive numbers as the pseudo 50/150/150/150/150/60 stats Aegislash is claimed to have. Added benefits include having zero dependency on HP EVs, greater speed, no stance BS and an overall better movepool. Downsides include item restriction and an arguably worse typing (?). I severely underestimated G-O's base stats, which resulted in tragedy when I first encountered it on the ladder. The following happened, which ultimately resulted in a loss for me:
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 157-186 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- did like 38% aka 0
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 322-381 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- got easily ohko'd after recoil
I also found out the hard way that Shadow Force bypasses protect lol. I'm well aware that G-O's strongest STABs have downsides, though I don't think Shadow Force's 2-turn mechanic is all that bad considering it ignores protect, hits incredibly hard and has few switch-ins in and of itself. G-O still has the option of falling back on its 80 BP and priority STABs, all of which are reliable and powerful. You could even run stuff like offensive RestTalk w/ Shadow Claw and Dragon Tail and have it put in serious work vs half the tier. Because I actually encountered it and had like zero switchins to f'ing Shadow Claw other than Clefable who was almost 2HKO'd by it anyway.
Call this a knee jerk reaction, but I was originally accepting of the idea of a Giratina-O suspect. And I still support the idea, don't get me wrong. I just think the subject in question has no business in OU. More thoughts to come at a later time.
Calm mind Clefable destroys giratina, Unaware clefable destroys giratina, Clefable can heal, Giratina can't really because restalk is random. You can't fit every move in Giratina-O's movepool bro, offensive will have shadow sneak to RK / DM / EQ or Earth power or aura sphere / hp fire / shadow ball / defog...it's already too much to fit in. Psychic Latios can 2HKO bold clefable too, it's called a lure set. There is no way such a bad coverage move will be viable other than hitting one or two mons, I don't see why you would use it tbh, it doesn't prove anything.
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