np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

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After laddering for a bit, I don't really have a problem with Giratina, it's weaker than some of the other dragons in the tier (Latios for example), and can be checked quite easily. The only problem is its extreme bulk, which you almost need a strong SE attack to wither it down to KO range. If this is in fact a real suspect test, I would probably like to see Giratina stay in the tier, more as a balancing factor and put some more originality into teams rather than seeing the same 7 or 8 pokemon on a team every game.
 

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A set that's impressing me lately is a hone claws physical wallbreaker/cleaner. Shadow force hits so hard it's not even funny, and a hc boosted shadow sneak is also pretty impressive. So far it's working for me.
 
After laddering for a bit, I don't really have a problem with Giratina, it's weaker than some of the other dragons in the tier (Latios for example), and can be checked quite easily. The only problem is its extreme bulk, which you almost need a strong SE attack to wither it down to KO range. If this is in fact a real suspect test, I would probably like to see Giratina stay in the tier, more as a balancing factor and put some more originality into teams rather than seeing the same 7 or 8 pokemon on a team every game.
If Giratina-O is unbanned, you'll see the same 1 Pokemon on every team instead of the same 7-8. It is weaker than Latios, but people shouldn't be trying to use Giratina-O as an all out attacker or offensive defogger because that doesn't play to its strength which is its incredible bulk. I'm surprised that there are not more people using Rest on Giratina-O because it is so hard for most top threats to even 3HKO it (Specs Keldeo can't even 3HKO specially defensive variants with Icy Wind for example). If you just want to nuke shit with Draco Meteor, use Latios. If you want to wall half the tier, use a defensive Giratina-O with Rest. Like Suicune, Giratina-O has the bulk to pull off Rest and the pseudo immunity to status is really nice.

Edit: To elaborate more on which sets I think are good and will be good, I've had a lot of success with defensive RestTalk with Shadow Ball and Will-O-Wisp, but Dragon Tail might be able to replace one of those moves. I also think using the CroCune set with Shadow Ball instead of Scald could be effective (there are only 3 really viable Normal types in the tier, Mega Lopunny, Chansey, and Diggersby, and "CroTina" might be able to PP stall Chansey). I could also see CM + Rest + Shadow Ball + Aura Sphere / Will-O-Wisp being a good set because most special attackers can't even 4HKO Giratina after a CM and burned physical attackers won't be able get past Giratina before it wakes up again. If there is one thing I'd recommend: don't use Defog on Giratina. Giratina has such a great movepool and wasting one slot on a utility role is not very good. The rest of the team should support Giratina, not the other way around.
 
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Excuse me but how is stall supposed to beat a Giratina-O? It's offensive movepool makes it wildly unpredictable. While bulkier variants have access to rest and it cannot have it's item removed.

On the other hand, having to bring Giratina-O to check top threats is not the way to go (remember how aegislash countered many dangerous threats)? I believe Giratina-O would make many pokemons unviable in OU and it's going to centralize the metagame a lot.

Keep it uber.
 

Grim

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Excuse me but how is stall supposed to beat a Giratina-O? It's offensive movepool makes it wildly unpredictable. While bulkier variants have access to rest and it cannot have it's item removed.
Fairy-types, especially (Unaware) Clefable and defensive Sylveon, are the best answers to Giratina-O as they hit it super effectively and are immune to Dragon. It can use Iron Tail to lure them in though, so they're not completely safe switch ins despite generally being safe. Mandibuzz is also a great answer as it only really fears Thunderbolt which 2HKOes after Stealth Rock but I doubt that anyone actually uses that, especially since Mandibuzz is not that common anyway.
 
Excuse me but how is stall supposed to beat a Giratina-O? It's offensive movepool makes it wildly unpredictable. While bulkier variants have access to rest and it cannot have it's item removed.

On the other hand, having to bring Giratina-O to check top threats is not the way to go (remember how aegislash countered many dangerous threats)? I believe Giratina-O would make many pokemons unviable in OU and it's going to centralize the metagame a lot.

Keep it uber.
Stall actually doesn't have that tough of a time dealing with Giratina because its raw power isn't good enough to break walls and it doesn't have Taunt. Chansey and most Fairies don't care that much about any of its attacks (Fairies do have to watch out for the odd Iron Head though). Rest makes it so that stall teams can't just wear it down with residual damage, but stall teams need to have a way to deal with other Pokemon which don't care about residual damage anyway. Unaware Clefable is usually a good answer to Giratina-O.
 
One interesting mon I've been using as a Gira lure is Foul Play Diggersby. Remember how Mega Mawile was pissing everyone off because it got Huge Power Foul Play? The way Foul Play works is that it uses the opponent's attack stat but the user's item, burn status, and in the case of Huge / Pure Power, ability. So effectively when Diggersby uses Foul Play it doubles in power. This is great because people expect Gira to be a perfect switch-in since it's immune to Diggersby's STABs and resists its common coverage moves. Foul Play takes advantage of this by OHKOing max attack variants (even without rocks) and 2HKOing special attacking variants. It also outspeeds most of the Giratina sets that have been running around while being immune to Shadow Sneak. Try it out. Foul Play also pretty much maims everything offensive while his STABs and Fire Punch destroy most defensive mons.


Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Foul Play
- Quick Attack / Fire Punch
Bad thing is it cannot switch into aura sphere. It's basicly a lure set which isn't a counter.. just a soft check. Not to mention diggers is somewhat mediocre generally.

The meta has not changed that much since Aegislash got banned, so it wouldn't make much sense to retest it. Additionally, it does not really solve the Landorus-I problem which is one of the reasons why Giratina-O was chosen.
If the meta didn't change then that's the perfect reason to bring him back. Our goal with getting rid of aegislash was to change the meta.. well that obviously didn't work. In ORAS that might be a massive change to reintroduce to keep fairies and mega metagross at bay.. which honestly would be a really smart move bringing him back. We might have a balanced meta if he returns once again.

However lando-I is the main issue here, giratina is dropping to check broken. Seriously, we need to get our shit together and suspect lando-I not introduce broken to check broken.. if lando-I or even keldeo are broken get rid of them not introduce an overcentralizing factor.. Atleast aegislash only bothers a couple fairies and metagross but even so it can barely eat EQ's or coverage switching into them. Giratina single handedly deals with 2/3s of the meta depending on it's set.. whether it's walling, RKing, luring, or sweeping.

Whelp.. looks like volcarona who just rose to A- is going back to the C ranks..

EDIT:
RoyalDispenser He did say it was a lure in his post, never that it's a counter lol.
So let's slap lures on our teams to handle one centralizing threat.
 
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One comparison I think needs to stop being used is the comparison of Giratina-O to a Mega. The use of its item slot is the only particular resemblance I see.

- The item itself boosts the power of Giratina's STAB moves, compared to the Mega Stone inducing the form change and nothing else.
- Giratina is Giratina-O at the outset of the battle. Megas still need a turn to change, which in some cases can be very limiting to them (see Altaria or Zard's SR weakness and Base Diancie's awful speed)
- Giratina-O does not occupy your Mega Slot. One thing that is limiting about Megas is that because of the one-per-team limit, you can't use them alongside each other (imagine the kind of defensive cores you could make otherwise with Zard-X and Venusaur, for example). Giratina-O is able to support and be supported by other Megas because it lacks that stipulation.

The net result is that Giratina-O is significantly more splashable than any Mega Pokemon, since it can fulfill its row without limiting tem-building beyond typing overlap or such like any other regular Pokemon. That said, Giratina-O brings a LOT in that one slot, arguably more versatile than some Megas, between playing a bulky wall, a Mixed Attacker, an offensive utility mon, among others people will no doubt manage to find through experimentation.

Despite my dismissal of such comparisons, I think what makes Giratina-O so effective in the current Meta is similar to why everyone was hyped about Mega Sableye: Role compression. Sableye was a big deal to Stall teams in early ORAS because he provided hazard control, excellent defensive synergy, pseudo-status immunity, was able to spread status himself, and could serve as a win-condition or utility mon with CM or Knock Off.

Giratina-O, similarly, can be a wallbreaker itself, a bulky attacker/tank, an outright wall, a blanket check to some of the hardest hitting wallbreakers in the tier, and provide either Hazard Removal or Status depending on if you run Defog or WoW, all on more or less one set with some EV tweaking. Its massive bulk (uninvested I believe it still outstrips Heatran, for example) and pretty good typing (The weaknesses suck, but most Dark moves are KO, Ghost is mostly on Gengar, which leaves Ice, Dragon, and Fairy, easily covered by a teammate, not to mention Levitate giving it Spikes immunity) make it incredibly difficult to crack while it lays into the opponent with high BP moves such as Outrage or Draco Meteor, not to mention phenomenal coverage while it's absorbing blows.

The reasoning to suspect Giratina-O was:
"the abundance of defensively oriented teams led us to believe that a mixed attacker with great defensive and offensive typing will probably give back some vivacity to the tier."

However, the thing many of us have noted, and the opening did as well, Giratina-O's arguably greater contribution to a team is how many potent threats it can check in one slot. I don't play as much on high ladder, but 23 of the Pokemon in S-A ranks are primarily found on offensive playstyles or play offensive roles, compared to 7 that primarily play support or defensive (not counting Mons that could do either such as Mega Altaria or Mega Scizor). That just makes me surprised to find that the metagame is evidently more defensive than offensive apparently. I just fail to see then how introducing Giratina-O will move the metagame away from defense rather than towards it.

Last time I saw the viability thread, many people were noting how hard pressed defensive teams were to deal with things like Mega Metagross and Landorus-I (I think M-Latias moved from A- to A just for being a consistent answer to the latter). If, despite that sentiment, Defensive teams are indeed dominating, I feel like Giratina-O would only make them moreso, since it brings so much utility as well as stopping so many of these otherwise problematic attackers. Giratina-O's offenses and coverage aren't anything defensive teams probably aren't ready to deal with (Kyurem-B presenting at least as much trouble from a raw power perspective), but offense is going to need to put a lot of work into breaking the demon dragon. Defense doesn't have any one mon that can be pointed to as hugely responsible for its success, but offense has monsters on its side like Keldeo, the Genies, and Mega Metagross: 2 of which were banned last gen and are or have been S-Ranked this one, another S-Ranked since its inception (discounting the Salamence month), and another that dominated last Gen and continues to be a top threat despite losing something in almost every transition (XY cost it rain, ORAS hurt its speed tier). Offense has more mons that either have been or that could warrant suspect testing (I have no opinion on whether they should or not), yet defense is the dominant playstyle, which I just find very odd to comprehend.

With all that said, I'm not sure how big of a fan I am of the idea of suspecting a Pokemon just for the sake of shaking up the tier rather than them being outright unhealthy for the metagame. If defensive teams are becoming more abundant, is that a sign of the tier being stale? Perhaps, but in my experience, Defensive playstyles are more consistent to play with and win with for a skilled player, since the playstyle is meant to last and thus is more prepared to recover from mispredictions. Despite this, I'm seeing a lot of experimentation, tons of posts in the "Good Cores" thread and team ideas that convince me plenty of people are experimenting and interested to see what they can try. Maybe the overall playstyle of the metagame is sitting securely, but I don't feel like the tier is significantly centralized, as it was with the presence of other suspects like Deoxys (HO), Mawile, or Aegislash (just around him in every playstyle). Giratina-O, if it does enter OU, has clear potential, whether or not it breaks the Metagame as things like Salamence or Kangaskhan did, very much centralize the tier around having to play with and against him in virtually every match. Maybe it'd be less match-up reliant, but if every match up is basically "Giratina vs Anti-Giratina", "Giratina v Giratina", or "Anti-Gira v Anti-Gira", that sounds like an even more potentially stale metagame.

I'm not sure I'll have time to ladder, nor do I think I'd make Reqs if I did, but I thought as a lurker of many years I should share my thoughts on this suspect. If Giratina-O proves to indeed help the metagame's health and diversity, I'll welcome and use it with open arms, but this is something very experimental and seldom tested we're toying with.
 

Grim

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Stall actually doesn't have that tough of a time dealing with Giratina because its raw power isn't good enough to break walls and it doesn't have Taunt. Chansey and most Fairies don't care that much about any of its attacks (Fairies do have to watch out for the odd Iron Head though). Rest makes it so that stall teams can't just wear it down with residual damage, but stall teams need to have a way to deal with other Pokemon which don't care about residual damage anyway. Unaware Clefable is usually a good answer to Giratina-O.
Faires are good answers, but Chansey is actually literally set up fodder for the Substitute + Calm Mind set which is arguably the most threatening set, especially to stall.

RoyalDispenser He did say it was a lure in his post, never that it's a counter lol.
 
From my point of view, it wouldn't be out of place. It has no boosting moves, nor does it have reliable recovery. The Defog/WoW combo is nice, but I doubt it will be ground breaking. I guess the Griseous Orb does cushion it from Knock Off, which is a bonus, but honestly the typing isn't great in the first place to deal with serious threats like Bisharp who either outspeed bulky variants or contrastingly underspeed (but hit harder) speedy variants.

Yes it's hard to take down, but in this gen it has a further and very commonly occurring new weakness (fairy). It would see it's way onto to teams because of the sheer utility, but having it on your team also compromises WoW/Volt Switch (Rotom variants) and Defog/U-turn or Volt Switch (mainly Scizor or Zapdos) pivots that are also crazily handy.

Overall, it seems like a good candidate for OU to me.
 

Srn

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the thing is gira-o just happened to have the typing, ability and the bulk to fit what ou really needs. i agree on that gira-o is extremely versatile, strong and ofc i understand people thinking this is stupid. but hey why not try something new instead off bashing this supect test from the get go? we should all be able to think outside off the box, ppl are acting like gira-o already is unbanned and stating such as the meta is shit atm, ofc it is shit atm when u drop a new pokemon as significant and metagame changing as gira-o what would u expect? lets see how ppl will adapt to it in the two following weeks when ppl can actually back up their opinion on it, and stop bashing it for being "top uber material" we all know that, be a little open minded please.
Bluwin fren, i realy understand where you'er coming from.
This mon makes teambuilding literally 14 times easier. Being able to check practically every relevant wallbreaker in one damn slot makes every kind of playstyle exponentially easier to build. Yes, it eliminates the matchup problems that currently riddles the tier. Yes, it mitigates the power creep a little with its insane bulk and typing. Yes, it certainly makes the meta quite a bit less stale. Yes, it is ridiculously fun to use. But is it really worth it? At what point is all these benefits worth warping the entire tier around a single mon?

I say there's a pretty fine line between introducing a good defensive mon to shake things up and having everything centered around beating it. I mean, how many landos, char-y's, and serperiors have you seen on the ladder? Conversely, how many fairies and weaviles have you seen? Chances are that I could grab a team real quick of giratina-o+5 gira-o checks and pretty much get reqs. Sure, the meta's stale, but atleast it was centered around the same small group of pokemon instead of around just ONE.

I"m not bashing it just b/c its uber, i was pretty open minded when i first heard this thing was dropping. Hell i had to calm down for 10 minutes to organize all the sets i was thinking of. But when it comes right down to it, I don't think the metagame is going to change in a favorable way. I could be terribly wrong but I seriously don't see how one mon so stupidly bulky and powerful will be healthy or introduce more variety for this tier. The only variety we'll be seeing is the variety of sets giratina-o can run...
 
Bluwin fren, i realy understand where you'er coming from.
This mon makes teambuilding literally 14 times easier. Being able to check practically every relevant wallbreaker in one damn slot makes every kind of playstyle exponentially easier to build. Yes, it eliminates the matchup problems that currently riddles the tier. Yes, it mitigates the power creep a little with its insane bulk and typing. Yes, it certainly makes the meta quite a bit less stale. Yes, it is ridiculously fun to use. But is it really worth it? At what point is all these benefits worth warping the entire tier around a single mon?

I say there's a pretty fine line between introducing a good defensive mon to shake things up and having everything centered around beating it. I mean, how many landos, char-y's, and serperiors have you seen on the ladder? Conversely, how many fairies and weaviles have you seen? Chances are that I could grab a team real quick of giratina-o+5 gira-o checks and pretty much get reqs. Sure, the meta's stale, but atleast it was centered around the same small group of pokemon instead of around just ONE.

I"m not bashing it just b/c its uber, i was pretty open minded when i first heard this thing was dropping. Hell i had to calm down for 10 minutes to organize all the sets i was thinking of. But when it comes right down to it, I don't think the metagame is going to change in a favorable way. I could be terribly wrong but I seriously don't see how one mon so stupidly bulky and powerful will be healthy or introduce more variety for this tier. The only variety we'll be seeing is the variety of sets giratina-o can run...
I completely agree with this, but I also want to point out that it makes the meta less stale for now. Like all new meta's they have a tendency to seem more diverse than the last, no matter if they actually are or not in the long run. That is because people are still trying out new stuff and finding what works.

The more and more I play, read and hear what other people have to think about Gira-O in OU, the more more I see it has a bad idea. I am 100% convinced that we are just trading our small group of overlords for one grand overlord if we allow Gira-O into the OU.
 
I've seen a lot of posts of people saying how people haven't had much trouble with Giratina-O on the suspect ladder and therefore it should be OU. I'd just like to say one thing: Most people don't know how to f***ing use Giratina-O because it literally just got introduced to OU yesterday. Once it gets some actual playtesting, I hope people will find the good sets and EV spreads for it. Otherwise I predict this will happen:

  1. People use shitty Giratina sets for the next two weeks.
  2. Giratina gets unbanned because people don't have much trouble with said shitty sets.
  3. People will eventually find the good Giratina sets.
  4. People will call for a suspect test to ban Giratina-O when people actually know how to use it.
Honestly, this suspect test should be longer than two weeks because we are dealing with something that hasn't been used at all in OU. I don't think Mega Mawile was considered a very good threat the first few weeks of XY OU and then people started to wise up. I can see this coming from a mile away and I don't want to be telling people "I told you so" in a couple of months.

Edit: Wow, this post has gotten a lot of attention. Valantine's post on page 19 shows what I am talking about. Once people get over running shit like Draco Meteor and Defog, I think Giratina's true potential will be realized. Hex + T-Wave sounds really interesting because it is the only ghost type besides Rotom which gets that combo. With 150 / 100 / 100 defenses and 120 / 120 offenses backed by Griseous Orb, and a decent but not great 90 base speed, people will find options with Giratina-O's terrific movepool to overcome whatever "mitigating factors" it might have. Hopefully, people will have to face some of the better sets to get reqs and will change their tune about how "underwhelming" Giratina-O is.
 
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Bluwin fren, i realy understand where you'er coming from.
This mon makes teambuilding literally 14 times easier. Being able to check practically every relevant wallbreaker in one damn slot makes every kind of playstyle exponentially easier to build. Yes, it eliminates the matchup problems that currently riddles the tier. Yes, it mitigates the power creep a little with its insane bulk and typing. Yes, it certainly makes the meta quite a bit less stale. Yes, it is ridiculously fun to use. But is it really worth it? At what point is all these benefits worth warping the entire tier around a single mon?

I say there's a pretty fine line between introducing a good defensive mon to shake things up and having everything centered around beating it. I mean, how many landos, char-y's, and serperiors have you seen on the ladder? Conversely, how many fairies and weaviles have you seen? Chances are that I could grab a team real quick of giratina-o+5 gira-o checks and pretty much get reqs. Sure, the meta's stale, but atleast it was centered around the same small group of pokemon instead of around just ONE.

I"m not bashing it just b/c its uber, i was pretty open minded when i first heard this thing was dropping. Hell i had to calm down for 10 minutes to organize all the sets i was thinking of. But when it comes right down to it, I don't think the metagame is going to change in a favorable way. I could be terribly wrong but I seriously don't see how one mon so stupidly bulky and powerful will be healthy or introduce more variety for this tier. The only variety we'll be seeing is the variety of sets giratina-o can run...
Initially, the Pokemon that have the biggest issues with Giratina-O will decline in usage, but as the metagame learns to adapt to GiraO, then their usage will go up, though probably not as high. Suspect ladder is a simple way of testing GiraO's effect on the metagame in the short term. Look at Mega Sableye: everybody hyped it up to the point where it was almost suspected. Now, people have learned to adapt to it. While GiraO is far more diverse than Mega Sableye, Pokemon like Volcarona, Diggersby, Keldeo, and Landorus are capable of learning to adapt to Gira-O through changing sets, teammates, etc.


I can understand why GiraO's immense bulk and capabilities could be considered overpowering, but we are looking at this from a too pre-judgmental perspective. We need to understand that while GiraO is extremely good, we still have not explored much how the long list of Pokemon that are checked by it adapt to its presence in the metagame.
 
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Ok i think i've changed my opinion on this. After suspecting and viewing others arguments, i feel it may be best for GO to remain in Ubers. It's not because of it's tankiness, attacking stat, versatility, great support moves. All those are supporting my viewpoint, but the thing that makes me feel that this thing should remaine in Ubers is because of how easy it is to use. There is no risk to using this thing at all. At least some megas (even megagross to some extent) had some risk to them because you only get one and you may be passing up another mega that could provide something important to your team. With GO, there's no risk. And what fun is a game without some risk v. reward.
 
Initially, the Pokemon that have the biggest issues with Giratina-O will decline in usage, but as the metagame learns to adapt to GiraO, then their usage will go up, though probably not as high. Suspect ladder is a simple way of testing GiraO's effect on the metagame in the short term. Look at Mega Sableye: everybody hyped it up to the point where it was almost suspected. Now, people have learned to adapt to it. While GiraO is far more diverse than Mega Sableye, Pokemon like Volcarona, Diggersby, Keldeo, and Landorus are capable of learning to adapt to Gira-O through changing sets, teammates, etc.


I can understand why GiraO's immense bulk and capabilities could be considered overpowering, but we are looking at this from a too pre-judgmental perspective. We need to understand that while GiraO is extremely good, we still have not explored much how the long list of Pokemon that are checked by it adapt to its presence in the metagame.

The issue lies in how they can adapt? Diggersby is a lure but struggles against the rest of the meta. Volcarona get's OHKO'd by shadow force and can be phazed while HP ice after a quiver dance does I think a 3HKO at best.. depending on damage rolls.

EDIT:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 202-238 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO (Now you're fucked by paired waters)
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 174-205 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 348-409 (105.7 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 156-185 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 265-313 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 178-210 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 267-315 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Adjusting those sets and EVs for avoid OHKO's and such only leads your pokemon more vulnerable to something else (IE, taking speed EVs off volc to avoid the OHKO so lando kills it.. removing giga drain for HP ice so keldeo and rotom kill it... etc.)

We knew sableye could be dealt with, without having to adjust any pokemon sets. We found serperior and volcarona could easily deal with him without having to run anything stupid besides their standard sets (like Hp ice...) Giratina is basicly forcing some of them to run special coverage and team support just for him.

Usually our answer lies in dragging something from UU.. however that is not the case as nothing particularly in the lower tiers is becoming more viable with his presence. I don't see any viability rising, only dropping with the addition of giratina. I see suicune potentially with the crocune set having icebeam being a decent answer.. but phazing still.
 
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I've been watching some replays. There's Giratina spam everywhere and people are adapting already (seems it's centralizing but the hype counts as well).

I've seen some shadow force users and that hits like a truck. Clefable just isn't reliable. The meta in't prepared for physical ghost spam, and griseous orb boost makes it worse. Oh and please, don't bring chansey here, it can't do sh*t vs Giratina.

I'm convinced it's a big nope in OU.
 
Hi, on mobile so this post will look bad :^(

I feel everyone that is complaining about Gira-O being on every team were never around when new pokemon are released, this is always the case, except this time it's an Ubers Poke!!!!! Who wouldn't want too try this thing out in OU for the first time.

I'm not saying if it is unbanned it won't be common, it will probably be near #1 Usage, but not as used as it is now.
 
Hi, on mobile so this post will look bad :^(

I feel everyone that is complaining about Gira-O being on every team were never around when new pokemon are released, this is always the case, except this time it's an Ubers Poke!!!!! Who wouldn't want too try this thing out in OU for the first time.

I'm not saying if it is unbanned it won't be common, it will probably be near #1 Usage, but not as used as it is now.
I see where your coming from, but once again the reason GO shouldn't be in OU is because of just how easy it is to use on teams. There is no risk to using this thing. And granted, I will agree with u that the suspect test is flawed in some ways considering that this might be the only chance to use GO in OU, hence why there is a lot of GO's, but I still think this thing is way too easy to be used in OU and would probably create more centralizing.

Also enough with the "April's fools day joke" jokes guys, its not very funny.
 
Mega Gardevoir really shines in destroying Giratina-Origin at the moment (insane fairy power + higher speed than Giratina-Origin). Any sets trying to be funny with substitute gets destroyed promptly by hyper voice. Actually, Mega Gardy ohko most variants; the most specially defensive types will get KO-ed after stealth rock damage I believe.

Still, this does not steer from the fact that Giratina-Origin has pretty insane bulk.
Until your gard takes a shadow sneak to the face on the switch with it's impressive 68/65 physical defense stats. Yeah, gard isn't really an answer
 
Okay I'm really tired of seeing this argument so I'm gonna say it now: If you can't see why they picked Giratina-O over any other suspect, you shouldn't be talking in this thread, let alone voting. It clearly walls top threats while being a force with quite a few significant and obvious flaws. Stop saying that there are better suspects and etc as well. because it isn't relevant to Giratina. Every other post has one of the two so I just wanted to say that.

On the subject of Giratina, I've played a couple of games on and off alts and I'm really surprised to say it's kinda underwhelming. It's a fantastic mon for what it was dropped to do (wall Keld, Lando, etc) but it really can't do anything that makes me think it's definitively broken. Defensive lacks worthwhile recovery (rest is okay, pain split is straight up garbage lol 150 HP isn't helping it much there), and offensive has a hard time outpacing and killing stuff it really wants to. I'm really leaning no ban at the moment, assuming I decide to get reqs of course.
 
Okay I'm really tired of seeing this argument so I'm gonna say it now: If you can't see why they picked Giratina-O over any other suspect, you shouldn't be talking in this thread, let alone voting. It clearly walls top threats while being a force with quite a few significant and obvious flaws. [...]
Also, I personally don't like the "it stops the team match-up issue", because this is just wrong. EVERYONE will have a Gira on its team and it will become the new Greninja of OU (you build your team of 5 Pokis and slap Gira on it the way you want it to act depending on what your other 5 Pokis lack). Gira will be overcentralizing as fuck and just worsen the current problem of OU; you either have the correct check/ counter to the according Gira set or your "dedicated check" will be just sitting there doing nothing xD
 
After some testing I can say Giratina is pretty everywhere (capt. obvious) - it will be the hype, it will be the slighty advantage it offers in one single slot -
I can't avoid a comparison with previous bans because precedents are really important, so I noticed it holds both genesect and aegislash's features:

- multiplicity of sets: the time is accomplice to this together with hype but there's not an accurate rate of viable sets (in terms of "what fits better in what kind of playstyle" etc, everything's so confused yet) so there are several situation when, facing Giratina, you have literally no idea of what to do; does it burns? calm mind? sub? dtail? coverage lure?
This reminds a lot Genesect, even if (for god's sake) it ain't got U-Turn.
- Kinda godly stats + typing: that combo let it fit in every team. Seriously, do u need something can defog, resist Keldeo? Put Latias. Now you're weak to Bisharp so you have to put something else etc --> Put Giratina and don't think at everything else. Ok, it might not be that easy reasoning of course, there will be always something threatening but the teambuilding issues would be slighty reduced using Giratina, like Aegislash did in old XY times.

Now I laddered and I partecipated at suspect threads, and I clearly remember those features were ban-worthy reason. What changed?
"We need to balance the metagame" yeah but why did you debalance it earlier then? I'm pretty disappointed at this unexpected shift of ban philosophy. I thought the way Council was running consisted in get out "overpowered mons", then checking at other "overpowered" mons and on and on

Besides that, Giratina does its job well. The issue is that it does its job too much well.

I can't see other than overcentralization in "no ban" choose, but I'm still confused.
I would really like to listen the direct opinion of Council members like McMeghan and gr8astard about this, it might persuade unsure minds like mine lol
 
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This entire suspect just seems absurd. The thing has an incredible 150/100/100 bulk meaning it will be around for a long time and can take super effective hits. Now unlike most walls, this thing isn't passive what so ever packing 120/120 offenses which allows it to be extremely offensive especially with dragon and ghost stabs. Now this thing does do an incredible job at check things like lando-t as said in the suspect however it does more than just check a couple top tier threats. Giratina-O checks 2/3 of the meta which is just stupid if you want the metagame to balanced. Now this thing does have good counters (namely clefable) and is checked by many fairies and the faster dragons, however it is stupidly easy to just pair this thing up with mega metagross who beats all of Giratina-O's checks and counters. Also there is no reason not to use this thing. It has the movepool and stats to fit on literally every team in OU and with no cost to the team.
 
Bad thing is it cannot switch into aura sphere. It's basicly a lure set which isn't a counter.. just a soft check. Not to mention diggers is somewhat mediocre generally.
First of all, you don't know what a lure is. Lures are used on offensive teams to lure out and dispose of mons that wall or check a given sweeper, allowing them to sweep. Remember how Gira is being suspected because it checks a lot of nigh-uncheckable things? Well, get rid of an opposing Gira and those mons can sweep. Foul Play Diggersby is an effective lure for Giratina-O. Lures are never counters. Like, by definition. If you're trying to lure pokemon A with pokemon B, then if B counters A, it's not going to lure it in. By the way, offensive teams don't even strive to counter things. Now, it's true that Diggersby isn't top-tier OU, but it is able to O/2HKO everything, while maintaining strong priority against offensive teams. It has flaws, but as a wallbreaker it's nearly unmatched. Like, it gets spikes and literally nobody uses them because why spike when you can just kill everything? Seriously. That's the reason.
 
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