The problem is with so many moves and so many Pokémon, it can take a very long time to make more accurate battle animations and it would take up a lot of space.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Nida :
Past The Story: While I don't think it would have fixed everything with Zinnia (honestly from what we heard about the Draconians I would say Zinnia's behavior is a bit odd. They believe that sacrifice is necessary to complete goals, Zinnia was getting ready to sacrifice herself (Zinnia didn't have the Aqua/Magma Suit like we did, she would have died once her and Rayquaza probably before they even left the planet's atmospere)), you'd think that would have her acting more serious and focused on her goal. But if at Sky Pillar had she explained who Aster was and maybe a bit into what being a Lorekeeper actually meant it (and her thoughts and opinions on it) would have helped at least know the emotional weight that she bears.
Maybe Zinnia actually doesn't believe in her people's thought on sacrifice or at the very least doesn't want to sacrifice herself after seeing/knowing what happened to Aster, but at the same time the pressure of responsibility of being Lorekeeper and the sadness of having lost Aster makes her want to die if it would mean being with Aster; thus she's conflicted with not wanting to follow an old and out-dated tradition but at the same time just wants her pain and suffering to end. That would have been an interesting take on her character, even explaining her odd behavior as she's trying to rebel from her people though still knows that she needs to follow her responsibilities or else the world is going to end (though as a result she inadvertently caused the end of the world herself for being so rash). That way when the player reveals they could take on the role of Lorekeeper and NOT die, it shows Zinnia there IS an alternate answer; and combined with her grandmother telling her her duty as Lorekeeper is done as its time she followed her own path the player could feel proud knowing they helped a character who was on the brink of despair find new hope. BUT OH WELL! Let's just keep her mysterious so that she can act emo and philosophical randomly.
Karxrida :
DLC Block: Because its not like Game Freak is run by people who can change their mind (well, maybe not for this gen)... Also I can name a few instances of (free) DLC. Pokemon Ranger: Shadow of Almia let you download extra missions and Pokemon Conquest let you download special character stories.
jordanthejq12 :
False Contact: Sadly I don't think we'll ever see actual physical contact... BUT that doesn't mean they can't use camera trickery to make it seem like contact was made. I'd be all for seeing from an angle shot the attacking Pokemon's model in front of the defending Pokemon's model doing a physical looking attack and the opponent reacting to it. It would require exact timing but I think its possible. Of course they still aren't making contact, but it'll at least look like they are instead of the attacking Pokemon doing a dance move on its spot and we then cut the opponent's spot where we see them react to it.
Near Hit: Wouldn't mind seeing something like the defending Pokemon like moving to the side to dodge the attack when it misses or for moves the user is immune to them just not being effected by the move (or even doing a taunt just to rub it in).
Rosen :
Repel After One: Though it wouldn't hurt to have more Pokemon in the cave as well. :P
Speaking of the Zubat family, I was messing around with the Pokedex today and saw the size comparison between your character and Corbat... CORBAT'S HUGE! It's bigger then most Pokemon you thought would be big, like the starters! Heck, even Golbat is oddly big!
Past The Story: While I don't think it would have fixed everything with Zinnia (honestly from what we heard about the Draconians I would say Zinnia's behavior is a bit odd. They believe that sacrifice is necessary to complete goals, Zinnia was getting ready to sacrifice herself (Zinnia didn't have the Aqua/Magma Suit like we did, she would have died once her and Rayquaza probably before they even left the planet's atmospere)), you'd think that would have her acting more serious and focused on her goal. But if at Sky Pillar had she explained who Aster was and maybe a bit into what being a Lorekeeper actually meant it (and her thoughts and opinions on it) would have helped at least know the emotional weight that she bears.
Maybe Zinnia actually doesn't believe in her people's thought on sacrifice or at the very least doesn't want to sacrifice herself after seeing/knowing what happened to Aster, but at the same time the pressure of responsibility of being Lorekeeper and the sadness of having lost Aster makes her want to die if it would mean being with Aster; thus she's conflicted with not wanting to follow an old and out-dated tradition but at the same time just wants her pain and suffering to end. That would have been an interesting take on her character, even explaining her odd behavior as she's trying to rebel from her people though still knows that she needs to follow her responsibilities or else the world is going to end (though as a result she inadvertently caused the end of the world herself for being so rash). That way when the player reveals they could take on the role of Lorekeeper and NOT die, it shows Zinnia there IS an alternate answer; and combined with her grandmother telling her her duty as Lorekeeper is done as its time she followed her own path the player could feel proud knowing they helped a character who was on the brink of despair find new hope. BUT OH WELL! Let's just keep her mysterious so that she can act emo and philosophical randomly.
Karxrida :
DLC Block: Because its not like Game Freak is run by people who can change their mind (well, maybe not for this gen)... Also I can name a few instances of (free) DLC. Pokemon Ranger: Shadow of Almia let you download extra missions and Pokemon Conquest let you download special character stories.
jordanthejq12 :
False Contact: Sadly I don't think we'll ever see actual physical contact... BUT that doesn't mean they can't use camera trickery to make it seem like contact was made. I'd be all for seeing from an angle shot the attacking Pokemon's model in front of the defending Pokemon's model doing a physical looking attack and the opponent reacting to it. It would require exact timing but I think its possible. Of course they still aren't making contact, but it'll at least look like they are instead of the attacking Pokemon doing a dance move on its spot and we then cut the opponent's spot where we see them react to it.
Near Hit: Wouldn't mind seeing something like the defending Pokemon like moving to the side to dodge the attack when it misses or for moves the user is immune to them just not being effected by the move (or even doing a taunt just to rub it in).
Rosen :
Repel After One: Though it wouldn't hurt to have more Pokemon in the cave as well. :P
Speaking of the Zubat family, I was messing around with the Pokedex today and saw the size comparison between your character and Corbat... CORBAT'S HUGE! It's bigger then most Pokemon you thought would be big, like the starters! Heck, even Golbat is oddly big!
We have already had this fucking conversation in a different thread, but I'll repeat what I said about this before for those who haven't read it.
1.) Those games were handled by different developers with different standards. Also from what I could gather from Wikipedia and Bulbapedia, they had no direct input (if any) from Game Freak (Conquest gave them a "very special thanks" but that was it).
2.) I'm like 90% sure they were on-cart so you could get them with an Action Replay if you wanted.
Shut the fuck up about DLC, it's not happening in the main series games unless GF does a 180 with their philosophy.
Last edited:
To be fair, they did have a very mild bit of "DLC" in HGSS and BW. Though in those cases it's less "download this access key for crap on the cartridge" and more "if you bring in this event Pokemon you'll gain access to it". Anyone remember how Celebi and the Shiny Legendary Beasts worked in those two games? Celebi gave a whole 5 minute storyline about Giovanni in HGSS and, in a lesser note, allowed you to get Zorua. The Shiny Legendary Beasts allowed you to find out the secret of Lostlorn Forest.
The HGSS one in particular has a feel of DLC and I wouldn't mind DLC like that being explored in the future. Could you imagine a Pokemon Z where having Volcanion in your party allowed you to gain access to the other portions of the power plant that you couldn't get into in Pokemon X and Y? Maybe there will be something mildly interesting there. I could see Game Freak doing that kind of "DLC" again.
But I'm getting off topic...
My opinion on Zinnia is that she's cute and has a good battle music. I tried to pay less attention to her as a character but more as an infodumping device that just so happens to apparently have her own problems. I forgot the whole Aster being named after a lost love thing because she was only useful to give explanations of the universe. I only remember her rambling on about things she wouldn't know unless she's crazy skilled with the math (long story short, in my headcanon, she knows about different universes from her job as Lorekeeper and can calculate using the Space Center's notes that it would end up in the RSE world, but I'm trying to justify too much here). Literally to me, Zinnia's just there to force the plot out of the hands of competent scientists and onto the hands of the Player Character while explaining the whole messed up Pokemon Storyline. That is all I took out of her character. And it would probably be better if others did too. It'll make people less angry about completing the Delta Episode (I have one friend that literally refuses to because of her).
She refuses to because of Zinnia's character? Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike her, as I said before. But she's nothing spectacular, nor is she properly an original character. Like you said, she's just an info dumping device and little else, and really she came out of oblivion with her story and all of the random lore. Her personality is entirely forced upon the player through battle and while she's kind of fun and eccentric, the contrast between those traits and when she's "serious" and telling the player about Rayquaza is pretty drastic. It just doesn't fit very well. Still, that didn't bother me too much, and I think reading so much into a character ruins the gameplay for most, and the same goes for your friend.
My friend reads into everything too much. She refused to play Skyrim's Dawnguard expansion because of Serana until she found out and proceeded to mod her into a mudcrab because of the same sort of Mary-Sue traits that apparently so seriously turn her off.
So this isn't just an unrelated post about that, let me change the topic:
Out of all the legendary trios, I really hated the Regis because they seemed to just lack anything resembling a "personality". It looked like they were trying to build up a story behind them, but it just felt lacking and didn't explain much about them other than they existed and were then locked up. Why were they made or anything like that? They just were created and then locked up. And it doesn't help that "unlocking" their caves was a pain in the ass.
Also, I didn't particularly mind roaming Pokemon in Gens II-V. It actually saved me a lot of money. I can just bring them down to 1 HP and put them to sleep. Then I would save and reset every time I missed. It also allowed me to catch them in whatever ball I wanted.
Plus, in Gen III it didn't help that Wobbuffet practically walled Lati@s at the level they were encountered. And Wobbuffet in the Safari Zone was around the same level so you could just spray a repel, put Wobbuffet in the front, and keep chucking balls until you caught it.
Karxrida:
Whoa, calm down, we're not being that serious and its nothing to get angry/upset about. I still stand by that Game Freak can change their mind. Will they? That's up to them and it probably won't be anytime soon (if ever), but they make the games and therefore they can do whatever they want. Philosophies sometime change, especially over time when the older people holding those philosophies leave and new people with different philosophies come in and rise through the ranks.
Now I will say I did bring up arguable examples, however I would argue that Game Freak at least had to agree for them to do that. If DLC is against their philosophy they wouldn't allow other developers they licensed the franchise out to to include it.
However, I can see you don't like talking about DLC, so let's end it here with agreeing to disagree and that as of right now Pokemon isn't going to have any DLC elements.
Mew King:
surely they wouldn't create additional locked off areas to the power plant which look interesting to go to without having a plan for us to go there in some way. Maybe not in XY obviously, but I have hopes in XY2 especially with Volcanion's event as you said.
Sides To Zinnia: I'm more disappointed in the wasted potential with Zinnia. Yeah, she's there to dump off info and maybe to act contrary, but at the same time if does feel like they were trying to do something with her character (otherwise why have her break down to your character?) and her attitude doesn't really fit the tone at that moment.
But she's up and gone now and Hoenn (as is the rest of the Pokemon World) is safe so I guess that's all that matters. And who knows, now that she's free of her duties they may be able to develop her character if they decide to use her again.
Regi Key: It does feel like we're missing something to the story of the Golem Trio. Regigigas sort of fill in some gaps they you can conclude that the Golem Trio are meant to be keys relating to Regigigas... but keys to what? To seal Regigigas? If so does that mean they would fight against Regigigas? Or is Regigigas their master and they follow its orders. But would that mean Regigigas made them? So what are they keys to then if Regigigas is the one who controls them?
We're missing their relationship with Regigigas and possibly other details. They feel almost like an ancient alien artifact in a way, maybe that's the point?
And I would have liked their puzzles to maybe be a bit more complex and sort of related to their theme (and maybe even answer some of our questions about them on the way), like a sort of mini-dungeon. Maybe even let them use the braille they put in a bit more.
Roaming Legends: As long as I have a map on the bottom screen it's not a big problem. Honestly I kind of wish they had the Legendary follow a path instead of being to suddenly teleport across the map when it feels like it (or you fly to where it is). It would make it feel like you're actually chasing after it.
But I think everyone would agree with me that the Legendary Bird chase in XY was BS! You not only needed to find it a dozen times but it ran before you could do anything. Then it goes to the Sea Spirit's Den when you can finally battle it. Why have me encounter it dozen of times it I can't do anything to it? Why not just let me interact with it on the overworld, it'll save me some time at the very least.
Whoa, calm down, we're not being that serious and its nothing to get angry/upset about. I still stand by that Game Freak can change their mind. Will they? That's up to them and it probably won't be anytime soon (if ever), but they make the games and therefore they can do whatever they want. Philosophies sometime change, especially over time when the older people holding those philosophies leave and new people with different philosophies come in and rise through the ranks.
Now I will say I did bring up arguable examples, however I would argue that Game Freak at least had to agree for them to do that. If DLC is against their philosophy they wouldn't allow other developers they licensed the franchise out to to include it.
However, I can see you don't like talking about DLC, so let's end it here with agreeing to disagree and that as of right now Pokemon isn't going to have any DLC elements.
Mew King:
surely they wouldn't create additional locked off areas to the power plant which look interesting to go to without having a plan for us to go there in some way. Maybe not in XY obviously, but I have hopes in XY2 especially with Volcanion's event as you said.
Sides To Zinnia: I'm more disappointed in the wasted potential with Zinnia. Yeah, she's there to dump off info and maybe to act contrary, but at the same time if does feel like they were trying to do something with her character (otherwise why have her break down to your character?) and her attitude doesn't really fit the tone at that moment.
But she's up and gone now and Hoenn (as is the rest of the Pokemon World) is safe so I guess that's all that matters. And who knows, now that she's free of her duties they may be able to develop her character if they decide to use her again.
Regi Key: It does feel like we're missing something to the story of the Golem Trio. Regigigas sort of fill in some gaps they you can conclude that the Golem Trio are meant to be keys relating to Regigigas... but keys to what? To seal Regigigas? If so does that mean they would fight against Regigigas? Or is Regigigas their master and they follow its orders. But would that mean Regigigas made them? So what are they keys to then if Regigigas is the one who controls them?
We're missing their relationship with Regigigas and possibly other details. They feel almost like an ancient alien artifact in a way, maybe that's the point?
And I would have liked their puzzles to maybe be a bit more complex and sort of related to their theme (and maybe even answer some of our questions about them on the way), like a sort of mini-dungeon. Maybe even let them use the braille they put in a bit more.
Roaming Legends: As long as I have a map on the bottom screen it's not a big problem. Honestly I kind of wish they had the Legendary follow a path instead of being to suddenly teleport across the map when it feels like it (or you fly to where it is). It would make it feel like you're actually chasing after it.
But I think everyone would agree with me that the Legendary Bird chase in XY was BS! You not only needed to find it a dozen times but it ran before you could do anything. Then it goes to the Sea Spirit's Den when you can finally battle it. Why have me encounter it dozen of times it I can't do anything to it? Why not just let me interact with it on the overworld, it'll save me some time at the very least.
Last edited:
I agree. This was easiest in DPPt, imo, because you could run along the boundary of Route 205 and Valley Windworks, watching as Cresselia/Mesprit transitioned around the region and eventually into one of the two sections, making it incredibly simple to snipe one of them in the grass. Of course, what sucked was finding that one of them appeared on the opposite side of the boundary you had just crossed...
Dark gets a gym next gen. I'm calling it right here. Just like Flareon with no moves, the lack of a Dark gym has gone memetic to the point where I don't think GameFreak can ignore it any longer.
Also, I kinda like the Pikaclones and think there was some real wasted potential, especially the newest addition to the line. If only Dedenne got Dazzling Gleam...it would still suffer from terrible BST and movepool issues, but that typing! Five resists and one immunity versus only two weaknesses (Electric canceling out the Steel weakness), and offensively it's not too bad either. GameFreak really could have made something out of this mon--maybe an evolution next gen and, for the love of Arceus, give it Dazzling Gleam!
Also, I kinda like the Pikaclones and think there was some real wasted potential, especially the newest addition to the line. If only Dedenne got Dazzling Gleam...it would still suffer from terrible BST and movepool issues, but that typing! Five resists and one immunity versus only two weaknesses (Electric canceling out the Steel weakness), and offensively it's not too bad either. GameFreak really could have made something out of this mon--maybe an evolution next gen and, for the love of Arceus, give it Dazzling Gleam!
Over the years, I've come to accept that the Dark Type is never getting a gym, not while it's name and many of the Pokemon and the moves listed under it have such negative connotations in Japan. If you ever see it as a Gym, the gym leader will most likely be working for the villains.
The only time you'll ever see the Dark Type used in great numbers is by the villain team and bosses, and by the Elite 4 as one of the greatest challenges the player has to prevail over on the way to becoming Champion, and even then the Elite Four members who use Dark Types are dodgy, with Karen being a member of Team Rocket in the manga, Sidney being a suspected Team Magma member and Grimsley being a fricken vampire(Gamefreak WTF?!).
My dream to face a Dark type gym is dead, lol, what am I talking about, it was never alive to start with.
The only time you'll ever see the Dark Type used in great numbers is by the villain team and bosses, and by the Elite 4 as one of the greatest challenges the player has to prevail over on the way to becoming Champion, and even then the Elite Four members who use Dark Types are dodgy, with Karen being a member of Team Rocket in the manga, Sidney being a suspected Team Magma member and Grimsley being a fricken vampire(Gamefreak WTF?!).
My dream to face a Dark type gym is dead, lol, what am I talking about, it was never alive to start with.
Last edited:
I wish that they had more of a story, too, but when compared to the other back stories of legendaries it doesn't seem all that odd. I never really understood what the purpose of the legendary birds was in the games (not the movie), while Latios and Latias don't really seem to have a story or purpose either (again, excluding the movie). If it eases your mine any, I like to think of their backstory being something like this, even if it isn't official.
Wait wasn't Grimsley just the Heir to a fallen household due to to gambling issues?
Zany Zinnia: another example of good story ideas bungled by poor implementation. Episode Delta suffered for poor pace, it was too short to do half of the plot it wanted to, so everything came out rushed. Why was Zinnia so sure the asteroid would strike alter-Hoenn? And where the heck did the heir of a dying race in a cave with a box of scraps get an education in Poke-quantum mechanics? Who the heck was Aster and why should I care? How can Zinnia take the moral high-horse when she was going to wreck the planet's ecosystem? And given how easily we summoned the dragon, why wasn't that the go-to plan? And why is Steven just laying down and taking this abuse like a [classy gentleman]?
Heck, in the race for biggest Mary Sue, I think the player is the winner. We just sat there and fought a few tiny, simple battles, fed a dragon a rock and then BOOM hero of the land. And we're treated as the chosen one from the get-go, whether or not we even agree with Zinnia's speech.
The only thing that redeemed it was the Brendan/May scenes. They were sweet and said way more with less words. Take notes Gamefreak!
Regarding Dark-type gyms, I don't know why the embargo has been up, but hopefully they'll do one someday. Although regarding the pasts of the Elite Four Dark Trainers, I think you are crossing canon with the manga. Karen, Sidney, and Grimsley don't have any evil connotations in the games at all.
And the manga makes everything darker, and I mean EVERYTHING.
Heck, in the race for biggest Mary Sue, I think the player is the winner. We just sat there and fought a few tiny, simple battles, fed a dragon a rock and then BOOM hero of the land. And we're treated as the chosen one from the get-go, whether or not we even agree with Zinnia's speech.
The only thing that redeemed it was the Brendan/May scenes. They were sweet and said way more with less words. Take notes Gamefreak!
Regarding Dark-type gyms, I don't know why the embargo has been up, but hopefully they'll do one someday. Although regarding the pasts of the Elite Four Dark Trainers, I think you are crossing canon with the manga. Karen, Sidney, and Grimsley don't have any evil connotations in the games at all.
And the manga makes everything darker, and I mean EVERYTHING.
Dark-type Gym:
Actually Daemul, though it is called Evil-type its more referring to them fighting dirty rather than being villain evil (I'm sure there are some exceptions (Malamar, Spiritomb), just like there are some exceptions to the opposite (Absol, Umbreon, Pangoro)). And as you noted there have been Elite Four members of the Dark-type who while have a bit of moral ambiguity (Karen is a bit of a rebel in her view of things, Sidney is styled after the punk genre, and Grimsley is a gambler who openly encourages you to do whatever possible to win). Infact the Elite Four member who is outright a villain (or part of a villain team, not counting the manga since we're talking about the games) is Malva and she's a Fire-type specialist (she doesn't even use a Houndoom on her team). So why can't we have a morally ambiguous Gym Leader? Like maybe it can be a street gang who don't like the law or government but do care for their home town. Maybe have it be a lawyer who you're told would do anything to win a case, similar Grimsley, though he justifies it saying that's his job (and maybe even throw in an Ace Attorney reference like him saying its a duty of a lawyer to believe their client is innocent and he'll let the evidence prove him right or wrong). Heck, maybe surprise us by just ignoring that aspect of Dark-type and focus on another like maybe have them be an astrologer who likes looking into the deep darkness of space (and before you say anything, Umbreon is a Dark-type yet that just seems to be because it prefers the night and darkness than because it fights dirty).
Will there be a Dark-type Gym next gen? Who knows. There was no Dark-type specialist this gen (aside from the remake, and who what XY2) so you can say Dark-type took its turn being one of the types "out". Though, as I noted, XY2 could surprise us.
Though just because they finally realized it would be a good idea to give Flareon Flare Blitz doesn't mean they'll rectify all their odd decisions. Plenty of Pokemon are still missing moves which they honestly should have (your mentioned Dedenne not having Dazzling Gleam), some Abilities still suck, some Pokemon of certain types need moves that don't exist to use their type(s) effectively, and there's a whole other thread of annoyances which goes deeper.
Legend Mystery:
True, though the Golem Trio & Regigigas have very lore about them at least they have some lore. Let's see what the lore behind the Legendaries are:
Huh, so it seems like early and extra Legendaries didn't really get much lore, but recent major Legendaries do have quite a bit of lore connected to them.
Actually Daemul, though it is called Evil-type its more referring to them fighting dirty rather than being villain evil (I'm sure there are some exceptions (Malamar, Spiritomb), just like there are some exceptions to the opposite (Absol, Umbreon, Pangoro)). And as you noted there have been Elite Four members of the Dark-type who while have a bit of moral ambiguity (Karen is a bit of a rebel in her view of things, Sidney is styled after the punk genre, and Grimsley is a gambler who openly encourages you to do whatever possible to win). Infact the Elite Four member who is outright a villain (or part of a villain team, not counting the manga since we're talking about the games) is Malva and she's a Fire-type specialist (she doesn't even use a Houndoom on her team). So why can't we have a morally ambiguous Gym Leader? Like maybe it can be a street gang who don't like the law or government but do care for their home town. Maybe have it be a lawyer who you're told would do anything to win a case, similar Grimsley, though he justifies it saying that's his job (and maybe even throw in an Ace Attorney reference like him saying its a duty of a lawyer to believe their client is innocent and he'll let the evidence prove him right or wrong). Heck, maybe surprise us by just ignoring that aspect of Dark-type and focus on another like maybe have them be an astrologer who likes looking into the deep darkness of space (and before you say anything, Umbreon is a Dark-type yet that just seems to be because it prefers the night and darkness than because it fights dirty).
Will there be a Dark-type Gym next gen? Who knows. There was no Dark-type specialist this gen (aside from the remake, and who what XY2) so you can say Dark-type took its turn being one of the types "out". Though, as I noted, XY2 could surprise us.
Though just because they finally realized it would be a good idea to give Flareon Flare Blitz doesn't mean they'll rectify all their odd decisions. Plenty of Pokemon are still missing moves which they honestly should have (your mentioned Dedenne not having Dazzling Gleam), some Abilities still suck, some Pokemon of certain types need moves that don't exist to use their type(s) effectively, and there's a whole other thread of annoyances which goes deeper.
Legend Mystery:
True, though the Golem Trio & Regigigas have very lore about them at least they have some lore. Let's see what the lore behind the Legendaries are:
Winged Mirages: Nothing, they just exist. Its said their master is Lugia though how they serve it is never mentioned.
Mewtwo: Made by a team of scientists (the scientists working for Team Rocket was something added by other media, in the games it was ambiguous who the scientists were doing it for) to be the ultimate weapon. According to the journal entries in the Pokemon Mansion it was either a Mew they performed genetic experiments on or it was cloned, depends on the adaption.
Mew: It's the origin to all Pokemon, having evolved into all the Pokemon species in the WAY past.
Legendary Beasts: The original were three Pokemon who got trapped and perished when Brass Tower burned down. Ho-Oh resurrected them to serve it, turning them into powerful creatures representing the tower's destruction (Raikou the lightning that struck the tower, Entei the resulting fire that burned it down, and Suicune the rain that put the fire out). How they serve Ho-Oh isn't mentioned.
Tower Duo: Ho-Oh and Lugia perched on the two original towers in Goldenrod City. Ho-Oh perched on the Tin Tower where Pokemon were said to "awaken" (a possible reference to being born) to the east while Lugia perched on the Brass Tower where Pokemon were said to go to "rest" (a possible reference to death). Also a possible illusion to the sun which rises in the east (marking the beginning of the day) and sets in the west (marking the beginning of night). What their role on the tower is mentioned, though people came to the tower to commune with them. 150 years before Gen II games the Brass Tower burned down and both Pokemon flew off to parts unknown.
Celebi: Guardian of the forest, it does so by time traveling. It has a shrine built for it in Ilex Forest. It sometimes brings Pokemon or Pokemon Eggs with it through its time traveling.
Golem Trio: The Sealed Chamber has a writing in braille that talks about how ancient people feared a sealed a Pokemon they owed all to. They then tell those with courage and hope to open the door to the eternal Pokemon. Until Gen IV the writing was mysterious though then came Regigigas in Snowpoint which sort of completed the legend. We'll talk more about it there, but long story short they and Regigigas saved Snowpoint, Regigigas fell asleep, and the Golem Trio turned to pillars of rock, ice, and steel; presumably to guard it.
Eon Duo: No known lore behind them, they just exist.
Weather Trio: ORAS expanded onto their legend so I guess you can say it feels the most "complete"? In ancient times the world was overflowing with natural energy which Primal Groudon used to create the land and Primal Kyogre used to create seas that make up Hoenn. Eventually the two Primal Pokemon started fighting over the energy until Rayquaza stopped them which sent them into a slumber. Thousands of years later a meteorite hit the planet releasing the energy once more and awakening Groudon and Kyogre who Primal Devoled and started fighting again. The people remembered how Rayquaza saved their ancestors so preyed to it allowing it to Mega Evolve. Mega Rayquaza stopped the Primal Pokemon and they fell to a deep slumber once more. Mega Rayquaza then flew away (in a delta shape) back into the planet's atmosphere.
Jirachi: Every 1,000 years it awakens from its hibernation and is able to grant wishes for a week. There's additional stuff like it being able to woken up early if sung to by a pure voice and that when it wakes up any wish written on its tags it'll immediately grant, but that's just fluff.
Deoxys: No lore really. It's a virus that traveled on a meteor that had lasers shot at it and it mutated into a Pokemon.
Lake Guardians: Arceus' second set of creations, after creating the universe and Pokemon planet it made the Lake Guardians to give the inhabitants spirit and consciousness. Uxie gave knowledge, Mesprit gave emotion, and Azelf gave willpower. After giving their gifts they dived deep down into the great lakes of Sinnoh to slumber. They also seem to have the power to summon the Creation Trio and working together they can contain one of them, but no more than that.
Creation Trio: Arceus' first creations, they created the universe by Dialga causing time to flow and Palkia causing space to bend. Giratina is in charge and maintain the Distortion World were there's no time and space is unstable. Giratina also has control over anti-matter.
Lunar Duo: They just seem to exist with no real lore. There's stories about them, but nothing you would really call a legend. Darkrai can cause unwaking nightmares which Cresselia's feather is able to awaken you from. A Lunar Wing, a wing from a Cresselia, also seems to be able to summon Cresselia.
Sea Guardians: No real lore either. They just exist.
Heatran: No lore, just exists. It can be summoned by the Magma Stone.
Regigigas: Continuing off the Golem Trio's part of the legend, Regigigas and the Golem Trio appeared from a bright blue light to stop a volcano that was going to destroy Snowpoint. After saving Snowpoint, as I mentioned, Regigigas fell into a deep slumber and the Golem Trio turned into pillars of rock, ice, and steel; presumably to guard it. Also in the past Regigigas pulled the continents with giant ropes.
Shaymin: Not much is known about Shaymin except for its deeds. Floaroma Town used to be an infertile wasteland until Shaymin uses it power to make it fertile and full of flowers. Those who show gratitude to their Pokemon in front of the white rock on Route 224 (Sinnoh) will cause the Seabreak Path, a straight piece of land covered in flowers that separates the seas, to appear and gives them access to the Flower Paradise, and island covered in flowers that is home to Shaymin.
Arceus: In the beginning there was nothing but a chaotic void. From the void an egg appeared which hatched into Arcues. Arceus used its power to create the Creation Trio thus creating the universe. It then created the Lake Guardians to give the universe spirit and consciousness. It then fell into a deep slumber in the Hall of Origins. Using the Azure Flute on the peak of Spear Pillar would create an ethereal stairway to the Hall of Origin where a now awakened Arceus awaits.
Victini: No deep lore. The earliest lore we know of is of the man who wanted to protect Victini so created the Liberty Garden lighthouse and placed it in there.
Swords of Justice: There was a war long ago that created a forest fire which put many wild Pokemon in danger. The original three Swords of Justice appeared to save them; Terrakion shaped a passage in the earth, Virizion protected them from sparks and embers with its speed, and Cobalion led the wild Pokemon to safety. However the forest burned down and they found one Pokemon left alone, Keldeo. They adopted Keldeo and together they fought back the human armies. Whenever human conflict would ever threaten Pokemon again, they'll appear to stop the fighting and restore peace.
Forces of Nature: Long ago, Thunderus and Tornadus started fighting with each other in their Therian Forms causing destruction to the land with thunderbolts and strong winds. Landorus appeared in its Therian Form to stop and punish them for fighting. To thank Landorus, the people made a shrine to it in the Abundant Shrine. The Reveal Glass is also an item in their lore somewhere which lets them switch between their Therian and Incarnate Forms, but no one knows which is their true forms.
Tao Trio: Long ago twin heroes and a powerful dragon who allied with them formed the Unova region. However each brother sought to follow a different path with their created region, the older brother wanted one of truth while the younger brother wanted one of ideals. They began to fight and not wanting to choose a side, the dragon flew up into the sky and split itself into the dragon of truth, Reshiram, and the dragon of ideals, Zekrom. The two dragons fought alongside their respective hero but realizing that they were equal in power decided there was no right or wrong path. However years later the sons of the heroes fought over truth and ideals again using the dragons, causing massive damage to Unova before vanishing.
At the time the original dragon split, what was left of that dragon became Kyurem and it fell back to the planet as an icy meteor near Lacunosa City, landing and creating the Giant Chasm. There it waited until the time a hero came and helped make it whole again by reuniting it with Reshiram and Zekrom. It would occasionally go to Lacunosa City to snatch a human or Pokemon to eat, thus the city built a wall to protect themselves so it stopped.
Somewhere in there is also the DNA Splicer, some ancient people must have realized Kyurem existed or that Reshiram and Zekrom may one day want to become whole to built a way to do so.
Meloetta: And back to little to no lore. In ancient times it sang and danced filling people's hearts with joy. However when sorrow darkened the world it lost its red dancing shows and forgot the Relic Song.
Genesect: It has no lore, it was a prehistoric Pokemon, said to be the fiercest predator of its time, that Team Plasma resurrected and rebuilt into a cyborg with a cannon on its back. N stopped the project, though some scientists continued and created Genesect and its Drives.
Mortality Duo: Now from what I can tell they actually don't have to do with anything about the Kalos War. They just seem to exist with Xerneas able to give eternal life. When it reaches the end of it gives off its remaining life energy into its surrounding, creating a forest by doing so, and transforms into a tree for 1,000 years until it can resurrect itself. On the flip side is Yveltal, who while wasn't part of the Kalos War did have a war of its own where it went around attacking castles. When its about to die it absorbs the life energy of everything around it, killing whoever gets caught, and turns into a cocoon for 1,000 years until it can resurrect itself.
Zygarde: It'll probably get its story told in XY2. As of right now we only know it protects the environment and when its in disarray it'll release its secret power to restore it.
Diancie: I don't think there's any lore attached to Diancie. It just exists, having originally being a Carbink before going through a sudden transformation and becoming their queen.
Hoopa: No real lore except about what its done. It has secret lairs all over the place of things it had taken for its own, rumors of there being mountains of treasure it had stolen from kings and barons. In recent times there was an organization that thought to use its power. However things started to vanish and the members got scared so hauled up in their HQ. When things stopped vanishing they discovered the HQ was transported to a middle of a desert. The organization decided to disband.
Volcanion: Not much lore, but apparently it used its steam power to blow up a mountain in Kalos which created a plain that allowed people to build Lumiose City.
Mewtwo: Made by a team of scientists (the scientists working for Team Rocket was something added by other media, in the games it was ambiguous who the scientists were doing it for) to be the ultimate weapon. According to the journal entries in the Pokemon Mansion it was either a Mew they performed genetic experiments on or it was cloned, depends on the adaption.
Mew: It's the origin to all Pokemon, having evolved into all the Pokemon species in the WAY past.
Legendary Beasts: The original were three Pokemon who got trapped and perished when Brass Tower burned down. Ho-Oh resurrected them to serve it, turning them into powerful creatures representing the tower's destruction (Raikou the lightning that struck the tower, Entei the resulting fire that burned it down, and Suicune the rain that put the fire out). How they serve Ho-Oh isn't mentioned.
Tower Duo: Ho-Oh and Lugia perched on the two original towers in Goldenrod City. Ho-Oh perched on the Tin Tower where Pokemon were said to "awaken" (a possible reference to being born) to the east while Lugia perched on the Brass Tower where Pokemon were said to go to "rest" (a possible reference to death). Also a possible illusion to the sun which rises in the east (marking the beginning of the day) and sets in the west (marking the beginning of night). What their role on the tower is mentioned, though people came to the tower to commune with them. 150 years before Gen II games the Brass Tower burned down and both Pokemon flew off to parts unknown.
Celebi: Guardian of the forest, it does so by time traveling. It has a shrine built for it in Ilex Forest. It sometimes brings Pokemon or Pokemon Eggs with it through its time traveling.
Golem Trio: The Sealed Chamber has a writing in braille that talks about how ancient people feared a sealed a Pokemon they owed all to. They then tell those with courage and hope to open the door to the eternal Pokemon. Until Gen IV the writing was mysterious though then came Regigigas in Snowpoint which sort of completed the legend. We'll talk more about it there, but long story short they and Regigigas saved Snowpoint, Regigigas fell asleep, and the Golem Trio turned to pillars of rock, ice, and steel; presumably to guard it.
Eon Duo: No known lore behind them, they just exist.
Weather Trio: ORAS expanded onto their legend so I guess you can say it feels the most "complete"? In ancient times the world was overflowing with natural energy which Primal Groudon used to create the land and Primal Kyogre used to create seas that make up Hoenn. Eventually the two Primal Pokemon started fighting over the energy until Rayquaza stopped them which sent them into a slumber. Thousands of years later a meteorite hit the planet releasing the energy once more and awakening Groudon and Kyogre who Primal Devoled and started fighting again. The people remembered how Rayquaza saved their ancestors so preyed to it allowing it to Mega Evolve. Mega Rayquaza stopped the Primal Pokemon and they fell to a deep slumber once more. Mega Rayquaza then flew away (in a delta shape) back into the planet's atmosphere.
Jirachi: Every 1,000 years it awakens from its hibernation and is able to grant wishes for a week. There's additional stuff like it being able to woken up early if sung to by a pure voice and that when it wakes up any wish written on its tags it'll immediately grant, but that's just fluff.
Deoxys: No lore really. It's a virus that traveled on a meteor that had lasers shot at it and it mutated into a Pokemon.
Lake Guardians: Arceus' second set of creations, after creating the universe and Pokemon planet it made the Lake Guardians to give the inhabitants spirit and consciousness. Uxie gave knowledge, Mesprit gave emotion, and Azelf gave willpower. After giving their gifts they dived deep down into the great lakes of Sinnoh to slumber. They also seem to have the power to summon the Creation Trio and working together they can contain one of them, but no more than that.
Creation Trio: Arceus' first creations, they created the universe by Dialga causing time to flow and Palkia causing space to bend. Giratina is in charge and maintain the Distortion World were there's no time and space is unstable. Giratina also has control over anti-matter.
Lunar Duo: They just seem to exist with no real lore. There's stories about them, but nothing you would really call a legend. Darkrai can cause unwaking nightmares which Cresselia's feather is able to awaken you from. A Lunar Wing, a wing from a Cresselia, also seems to be able to summon Cresselia.
Sea Guardians: No real lore either. They just exist.
Heatran: No lore, just exists. It can be summoned by the Magma Stone.
Regigigas: Continuing off the Golem Trio's part of the legend, Regigigas and the Golem Trio appeared from a bright blue light to stop a volcano that was going to destroy Snowpoint. After saving Snowpoint, as I mentioned, Regigigas fell into a deep slumber and the Golem Trio turned into pillars of rock, ice, and steel; presumably to guard it. Also in the past Regigigas pulled the continents with giant ropes.
Shaymin: Not much is known about Shaymin except for its deeds. Floaroma Town used to be an infertile wasteland until Shaymin uses it power to make it fertile and full of flowers. Those who show gratitude to their Pokemon in front of the white rock on Route 224 (Sinnoh) will cause the Seabreak Path, a straight piece of land covered in flowers that separates the seas, to appear and gives them access to the Flower Paradise, and island covered in flowers that is home to Shaymin.
Arceus: In the beginning there was nothing but a chaotic void. From the void an egg appeared which hatched into Arcues. Arceus used its power to create the Creation Trio thus creating the universe. It then created the Lake Guardians to give the universe spirit and consciousness. It then fell into a deep slumber in the Hall of Origins. Using the Azure Flute on the peak of Spear Pillar would create an ethereal stairway to the Hall of Origin where a now awakened Arceus awaits.
Victini: No deep lore. The earliest lore we know of is of the man who wanted to protect Victini so created the Liberty Garden lighthouse and placed it in there.
Swords of Justice: There was a war long ago that created a forest fire which put many wild Pokemon in danger. The original three Swords of Justice appeared to save them; Terrakion shaped a passage in the earth, Virizion protected them from sparks and embers with its speed, and Cobalion led the wild Pokemon to safety. However the forest burned down and they found one Pokemon left alone, Keldeo. They adopted Keldeo and together they fought back the human armies. Whenever human conflict would ever threaten Pokemon again, they'll appear to stop the fighting and restore peace.
Forces of Nature: Long ago, Thunderus and Tornadus started fighting with each other in their Therian Forms causing destruction to the land with thunderbolts and strong winds. Landorus appeared in its Therian Form to stop and punish them for fighting. To thank Landorus, the people made a shrine to it in the Abundant Shrine. The Reveal Glass is also an item in their lore somewhere which lets them switch between their Therian and Incarnate Forms, but no one knows which is their true forms.
Tao Trio: Long ago twin heroes and a powerful dragon who allied with them formed the Unova region. However each brother sought to follow a different path with their created region, the older brother wanted one of truth while the younger brother wanted one of ideals. They began to fight and not wanting to choose a side, the dragon flew up into the sky and split itself into the dragon of truth, Reshiram, and the dragon of ideals, Zekrom. The two dragons fought alongside their respective hero but realizing that they were equal in power decided there was no right or wrong path. However years later the sons of the heroes fought over truth and ideals again using the dragons, causing massive damage to Unova before vanishing.
At the time the original dragon split, what was left of that dragon became Kyurem and it fell back to the planet as an icy meteor near Lacunosa City, landing and creating the Giant Chasm. There it waited until the time a hero came and helped make it whole again by reuniting it with Reshiram and Zekrom. It would occasionally go to Lacunosa City to snatch a human or Pokemon to eat, thus the city built a wall to protect themselves so it stopped.
Somewhere in there is also the DNA Splicer, some ancient people must have realized Kyurem existed or that Reshiram and Zekrom may one day want to become whole to built a way to do so.
Meloetta: And back to little to no lore. In ancient times it sang and danced filling people's hearts with joy. However when sorrow darkened the world it lost its red dancing shows and forgot the Relic Song.
Genesect: It has no lore, it was a prehistoric Pokemon, said to be the fiercest predator of its time, that Team Plasma resurrected and rebuilt into a cyborg with a cannon on its back. N stopped the project, though some scientists continued and created Genesect and its Drives.
Mortality Duo: Now from what I can tell they actually don't have to do with anything about the Kalos War. They just seem to exist with Xerneas able to give eternal life. When it reaches the end of it gives off its remaining life energy into its surrounding, creating a forest by doing so, and transforms into a tree for 1,000 years until it can resurrect itself. On the flip side is Yveltal, who while wasn't part of the Kalos War did have a war of its own where it went around attacking castles. When its about to die it absorbs the life energy of everything around it, killing whoever gets caught, and turns into a cocoon for 1,000 years until it can resurrect itself.
Zygarde: It'll probably get its story told in XY2. As of right now we only know it protects the environment and when its in disarray it'll release its secret power to restore it.
Diancie: I don't think there's any lore attached to Diancie. It just exists, having originally being a Carbink before going through a sudden transformation and becoming their queen.
Hoopa: No real lore except about what its done. It has secret lairs all over the place of things it had taken for its own, rumors of there being mountains of treasure it had stolen from kings and barons. In recent times there was an organization that thought to use its power. However things started to vanish and the members got scared so hauled up in their HQ. When things stopped vanishing they discovered the HQ was transported to a middle of a desert. The organization decided to disband.
Volcanion: Not much lore, but apparently it used its steam power to blow up a mountain in Kalos which created a plain that allowed people to build Lumiose City.
Huh, so it seems like early and extra Legendaries didn't really get much lore, but recent major Legendaries do have quite a bit of lore connected to them.
1) Okay, let the Dark-type Gym Leader be part of the villainous team. We are used to the concept since Generation I and we are, and always have been, fine with that.
2) Why not have a Dark-type Gym Leader to show us that maybe the type was misrepresented when it was named. That would be cool and it would be a reminder not to judge a book by its cover. Especially since we have seen good characters used Dark-type Pokémon on their teams, even though they weren't Dark-type specialists (Steven, Cynthia, Wallace).
3a) By the time Karen was in the Elite Four in the Adventures manga, she had left Team Rocket. In fact, that was the whole point of the Johto Elite Four. Also, the Kanto Elite Four were straight up villains when they first showed up in Adventures.
3b) I don't know where you got Sidney being a suspected Team Magma member from (it wasn't the games or Adventures) and just because Grimsley's design is based on vampires doesn't make him one.
3c) Adventures does not equal the canon of the games. The Elite Four is evidence enough of that. And then there's Zapmolcuno:
Oh I wish the DNA Splicers would let me make this a reality.
I never understood this concept that Dark belongs in the Elite Four as a challenging battle. I will use X and Y to illustrate this, but I need to establish a few facts first:
Yes, in Gold and Silver, Dark would have been a bit difficult to fight since it had only two weakness (Bug and Fighting) with good moves being somewhat rare (unless you used Heracross). Nowadays, decent Bug and Fighting moves are easy to come by and we have a new type to use, Fairy, and it has at least four common and usable moves used through playthroughs in the form of Draining Kiss, Play Rough, Moonblast, and Dazzling Gleam.
Now, on to my X and Y example:
By the time you get to the fourth gym (whose Pokémon are ~30-35), you easily have the ability to have decent Pokémon of the three types that can beat Dark, two of which are gift Pokémon:
Fighting: Chesnaught (your starter), Lucario (which you always get), Pangoro, Scraggy (Scrafty if a tad overleveled), Medicham (again, a tad overleveled), Machoke/Machamp, Croagunk (once more, Toxicroak if you are a little overleveled) and more.
Bug: Vivillon, Vespiquen, Ninjask, Scolipede, and a good bit more.
Fairy: Azumarill, Gardevoir, Florges, Aromatisse, Slurpuff, Granbull, Sylveon, and probably more.
And that's not even looking into Pokémon that have access to Bug, Fighting, and Fairy-type attacks. We could have easily had a Dark-type Gym instead of Ramos or Clemont. I would personally get rid of Clemont since Johto is currently the only region without an Electric Gym. Yeah, Electric has five yet Dark has none.
Thanks to virtually all of us having grown up with Pokémon the First Movie, it is all of the headcanoned. Also, it had a similar origin in Adventures, being created by Blaine when he used to work for Team Rocket. Pretty much every form of Pokémon media has tied Team Rocket into the creation of Mewtwo except the games themselves and Pokémon Origins. At this point, the games might as well just make it canon.
but the manga isn't canonical with the games, so Karen's role in the games is as-presented. I think she's relatively innocent, and she kind of promotes a more friendly perspective on Pokemon and battling, what with when she distinctly comments on trainers having "Strong Pokemon" and "Weak Pokemon" and that being what's truly incorrect about the whole thing.
Pretty much, and then we got our glorious beach gentleman to rectify it.
But in the games I like the concept of dark types e4 as the time past GS was more than just a psychic immunity and offered a lot of stuff to play around.
Well, some have abandoned the prospect because it's been desired for so long that it just doesn't seem like it's even happening. I mean, it seems kind of natural to toss up the type lineup of Gyms in each new generation of games, but Dark's been sidelined so often that I guess still reaching for that evil organization leader + Dark leader hybrid is a little farfetched. Oh, wait, Giovanni was an evil org. leader and he was Ground-type. :|
I want to see the next evil team being ALL Fairy Types now. That would really shake everything up. Something something anti-dragons.
I'm of the opinion that's a sailed ship. The prime opportunity for an evil team using Fairy-types was when they were first introduced in XY, with something of a "brainwash the fairies and make them do all our bidding!!" modus operandi... or anything equally or less cheesy. You catch my drift, I'm sure.
Hold on a second, I want to list the Gyms and Elite Four by their types:
Now there are acceptations (and I did ignore Champions who weren't Gym Leaders/Elite Four before), but this is just raw data.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind if they went through the types and decided to pick the next batch of Gym Leaders and Elite Four on that (unless they decide to have the types used have importance to the story). Actually I think it would be interesting if they had the Gyms be "advance" types and the Elite Four use "early/common" types. For example:
Gyms:
Water: 6
Electric: 5
Ice: 5
Normal: 4
Fighting: 4
Rock: 4
Grass: 4
Psychic: 4/3 (depends if you count Tate & Liza separate or not)
Flying: 3
Poison: 3
Bug: 3
Fire: 3
Dragon: 3
Ground: 2
Ghost: 2
Steel: 2
Fairy: 1
Elite Four:
Psychic: 3
Dragon: 3
Dark: 3
Fighting: 2
Ghost: 2
Fire: 2
Poison: 1
Ground: 1
Bug: 1
Steel: 1
Water: 1
Ice: 1
Water: 6
Electric: 5
Ice: 5
Normal: 4
Fighting: 4
Rock: 4
Grass: 4
Psychic: 4/3 (depends if you count Tate & Liza separate or not)
Flying: 3
Poison: 3
Bug: 3
Fire: 3
Dragon: 3
Ground: 2
Ghost: 2
Steel: 2
Fairy: 1
Elite Four:
Psychic: 3
Dragon: 3
Dark: 3
Fighting: 2
Ghost: 2
Fire: 2
Poison: 1
Ground: 1
Bug: 1
Steel: 1
Water: 1
Ice: 1
Now there are acceptations (and I did ignore Champions who weren't Gym Leaders/Elite Four before), but this is just raw data.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind if they went through the types and decided to pick the next batch of Gym Leaders and Elite Four on that (unless they decide to have the types used have importance to the story). Actually I think it would be interesting if they had the Gyms be "advance" types and the Elite Four use "early/common" types. For example:
Gyms: Dark, Fairy, Steel, Ghost, Dragon, Poison, Psychic, & Fighting
Elite Four 1: Normal, Flying, Bug, Rock
OR
Elite Four 2: Grass, Fire, Water, Electric
Elite Four 1: Normal, Flying, Bug, Rock
OR
Elite Four 2: Grass, Fire, Water, Electric
I'm not sure if they'd do a Grass E4 simply because the type is less than stellar defensively. All I know is they should do a first gym that's actually reasonably fair to all three starters. Having a Rock gym so often is just killer for anybody going Fire. (Especially Gen IV with that damn Cranidos.)
Actually since they went with steel and poison weakness they could have gone with the true grotesque nature of the fairy folk.
I don't see why you hate Karen's little spiel so much. Like her speech is basically the definition of the game: Use your favorites to win. If we didn't try to play with our favorites, the games would be so boring lol.. This beach guy gives a nice little speech that goes hand in hand with competitive aspects, but Karen's philosophy literally defines the game of Pokemon.