My Bad, Overheat. Forretress is just not good isn't exactly a point.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Again, we come back to the argument that what is forretress coming in on. Really, the only pokemon that it can switch in on megagross and I don't think that makes it deserving of D rank. Sure, it can spin, get up rocks, and volt switch out, but when does it really have the opportunity to do so? It's too slow and it lacks recovery so it can only set up sr a few times in a match do to how easily it gets worn down. Same thing with spinning. Other SR setters such as ferrothorn have passive recovery by running leech seed, as well as a resistance to SR. Forretress just gets worn down way too easily with an SR neutrality and no reliable recovery. Forretress was blacklisted before, and the only reason it was even considered for D rank was because of its custap suicide lead set. Defensive forretress honestly is just bad.
It kind of is, though, at least if we're talking about a Defensive Leftovers set. It's not like Forry was released yesterday, and this argument comes up at least three times a year or so.
Hey! I just noticed that I've been terribly rude by not welcoming ahbelew to the forums. Welcome!
Again, just bad is not an argument. At least other people are giving reasons. And Forretress switches into several physical attackers. With only one weakness and a 140 Def stat, i don't see how you can make the argument that it can't switch in. Just because it can't attack back doesn't mean it can't switch in and set up rocks or spin. And it doesn't have recovery, except rest, so it needs team support. (Sounds like D rank or something...) It's outclassed in individual areas, but as a whole, no pokemon can do the all three things i've mentioned. I'll drop it, but I use this Forretress very well on my team and it works well in tandem with intimidate users like Landorus-T or a wish passer like Sylveon. It would also fit well on HO teams looking to have one poke that handles all their hazard needs. And with that I'm done, don't really care to argue whether or not Forretress can take a physical hit
I guess I'll comment on Tyrantrum and why it should rise. It's not that complicated, really. It happens to have one of the two or three strongest STABs in OU in Head Smash, which is basically click and watch something die or come close to it. Pretty low risk to what could potentially be a big reward. Outrage is also good as a second option hitting some common Rock resists like Hippowdon hard. It's also got the coverage in Superpower hit those pesky Steel types. Solid wallbreaker, but nothing too special. There just happens to be a small pool of things that can actually stomach a Head Smash and there's decent enough coverage to pick off common checks.
Rock Polish sets and Dragon Dance sets are also effective late game cleaners and can be pretty hard to stop. It's typing also isn't too bad, resisting talonflame's brave bird and neutral to aqua jet. It can run those 3 sets pretty effectively and CB sets hit like a truck and nothing really wants to stomach a hit from it.
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Its the "Jack of all trades, Master of None" While its "niche" would be compressing all those roles into one, i would much rather have starmie or excadrill who excel greatly in rapid spinning than fortress who is mediocre at spinning. The point is when you have a mon doing so many roles at once, it doesn't make it good in any of those said roles. Fortress is the only pokemon that can do all of those at once, but rarely ever gets the chance to do more than one of them in a match. It's like running Hazards + Defog on Skarmory, it usually won't be able to defog hazards away then set up SR/Spikes, so you use Skarmory as a Hazard setter and pair it with a defogger or the other way around. Cramming all of them just makes Skarmory worse.
To Keep on Topic I support Tyrantrum Moving up. Choice Banded Head Smash is disgusting in terms of damage output. If your name isn't Chesnaught or Hippowdon, you pretty much get 2HKO unless you outspeed. DD and RP sets i haven't tried in OU, so i won't talk about them.
Tyrantrum is not neutral to Ice Shard. Rock is neutral to Ice, so Tyrantrum technically has a 2x weakness to Ice Shard. It does not take any more than 60% though from either Weavile or Mamoswine, whereas they get OHKOd back (Mamo using LO), so it can technically beat common Ice Shard users.
I have no opinion on Tyrantrum, as I have never used it, but I would like to point that out.
I'm not sure anybody has talked about this yet, but Starmie shouldn't rise to A+. It's a strong defensive spinner, yes, but it now has to pick between Reflect Type and Psyshock (picking between escaping from Pursuit or beating Keldeo basically) and there's not exactly a clear cut better answer and both have noticable drawbacks. The offensive set really isn't great overall, great coverage and even the occasional Analytic boost can only do so much backed up by base 100 Special Attack. Starmie has had a pretty quick rise as of late but A+ is a little too much at the moment. It's close but the A rank is actually pretty loaded right now and it doesn't really stick out too much.
Why are we talking about Foretress's defensive set and what it checks/counters? I understand that that one guy who brought it up is new here, which is ok, but the rest of you should know better than to make a billion posts arguing about a set we all know isn't viable. If we're going to talk about Forretress it should be about it's Custap Lead, which is the only set that could potentially warrant a D-rank. Clearly that new guy is wrong but rather than have everyone on the entire site dump on him we should actually talk about something that matters, such as Forretress's Custap Lead.
Other things I agree with:
Starmie stays in A
Tyrantrum rises to B-
Mega Medicha rises to B-
Alakazam rises to C+
Skarory rises to A-
Other things I agree with:
Starmie stays in A
Tyrantrum rises to B-
Mega Medicha rises to B-
Alakazam rises to C+
Skarory rises to A-
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
As a suicide lead Forretress is pretty bad, it is really easy to see through from team preview and even though this is the case for most suicide leads, Forretress has a horrible speed tier and no Taunt, plus it can't get past Mega Sableye. Rapid Spin is no reason to use it since its a suicide lead anyway. Also Custap Skarmory basically does everything better than Forretress, except it lacks Toxic spikes, which tbh Forretress will never be able to get up anyway. If you want Toxic Spikes that badly, Sash Scolipede always exists so yeah I just find it to be completely outclassed.
Hey guys I noticed Mega Altaria moved up to S rank, and I looked back the past few pages and didnt find anything, can someone please post/pm me the set(s) that make it S rank? Thanks!
well theres this thread that posts the pokemons sets viabilities http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-sets-v2.3532283/
for mega altaria, its dragon dance set, support set, and special attacker set makes it s class
for mega altaria, its dragon dance set, support set, and special attacker set makes it s class
The variety of its sets mean that it can nail things that would normally stop it cold, like fire blast for ferro and stuff. It's a really solid pokemon given its bulk and offensive pressure, and fairy in general is really strong right now. Imho DD is the best set in the current metagame.
Hi,
The reason why I'm here tonight is to share my experience using this Tauros set in OU. After reading this post I just decided to try out this WTF set coming from the darkest NU deeps in OU. To test Tauros, I created a new account named mr.charal and waited to be mid-ladder with it before posting. I must say that at the beggining, for about 12 battles, Tauros was deadweight for me, I just didn't needed it or I used it badly. After this difficult start, Tauros became better and better, not really because of matchup but more thanks to a new way to use it, which I'll explain soon.
Here is my Tauros set :
Tauros @ life orb
Ability: sheer force
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rock Climb
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
I assume that this sets tries to lure thing such as Landorus, Gliscor, Ferrothorn or Garchomp to hit with a surprise x4 effective move. Here is the main point of my contribution : luring things often fails, because they can scout your SE move (Ferrothorn, Gliscor) or more often because the opportunity cost to come on against the mon you want to lure without being easily spotted and so uneffective is too high.
Since I understood that point, I tried to often use the two physical moves of the set to hit common switch ins mainly after the lure is evident. Even with 240 atk, Sheer force stabbed Rock Climb hits pretty hard and common physically bulky answers to this move are taken out by the special moves. One thing you must keep in mind is that Tauros will not always cause switches as expected at first because in mid ladder, a lot of players just don't care about it as much as they should, making anticipation risky.
Moreover, with these moves, Tauros threatens a few important mons of the tier and can :
OHKO (or nearly OHKO) :
- Landorus
- Landorus T
- Charizard Y
- Ferrothorn
- Gliscor
- Garchomp
- Scizor
2HKO :
- Latias
- Latios
- Keldeo
- M-Metagross
- Bisharp (except the rare assault vest)
- Azumarill
- Gengar
- Celebi (except specially defensive)
- SpD Rotom-W
Here are mons from S, A+ and A ranks. I just don't talk about faster mons because they usually destroy Tauros but obviously a rock slide can kill Talonflame and severely dent Thundurus, as a Rock Climb does about 60% to Mega lop' or Starmie for example
Here is my actual ladder with the Tauros team :
This study about Tauros isn't finished yet as I want to see if I'm able to ladder to 1500+ and still there with Tauros in the team. I assume that Tauros would never have been my first choice or even a possible choice in my mind before I decided to build a team to try it, and I don't nominate it for any rank, I just ask for further discussion about it before any hypothetical nomination. I'll be glad you want to try out Tauros or share your experience.
Thank you for your welcome and sorry for the mistakes, I'm French.
EDIT : Here a some replays from 3 battles in a row (to show that Tauros isn't always useful and also that I will not choose specific replays to let thing that Tauros is amazing while it is shit in 9/10 battles I prefer to hide, it is defenitively not my purpose).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222442510
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou-222446703
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222448600
The reason why I'm here tonight is to share my experience using this Tauros set in OU. After reading this post I just decided to try out this WTF set coming from the darkest NU deeps in OU. To test Tauros, I created a new account named mr.charal and waited to be mid-ladder with it before posting. I must say that at the beggining, for about 12 battles, Tauros was deadweight for me, I just didn't needed it or I used it badly. After this difficult start, Tauros became better and better, not really because of matchup but more thanks to a new way to use it, which I'll explain soon.
The main reason why I was interested by this idea is because of the violent reactions this post caused. I hope it will not be the same tonight, I'm sure it is possible to discuss about Tauros without coming to anger point that easily !I know there have been a lot of people nominating random unranked stuff for D rank, but I gotta nominate Tauros for D rank.
Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Zen Headbutt / Thunderbolt
- Earthquake / Rock Climb
While it seems really unorthodox and just plain bad, specially based mixed Tauros is viable in OU for two reasons: 1) It's a great lure to common physical walls such as Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Chesnaught, Slowbro, and tank Garchomp who love to switch in to standard Tauros and 2) It has a great 110 speed tier. While on the surface, 40 base Spatk might not seem impressive, when you add together 240 Spatk EVs, Life Orb, Sheer Force, and high base power moves, the damage starts to add up. Take a look at these calcs:So as you can see, Tauros actually hits its targets pretty hard. Being able to 1HKO/2HKO a lot of common walls or physical switchins is no problem for it. In my experience, people often switch in their physical walls to Tauros, which is why Tauros is such an effective lure. Almost no one expects it to pack Fire Blast and/or Ice Beam. Not only this, but his 110 speed tier allows Tauros to preform well vs offensive teams as well as balance teams with physical tanks. Tauros nets a lot of 1HKOs or 2HKOs on common offensive Pokemon such as Lati twins, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Landorus, DD Mega Altaria, Bisharp, Gengar, Thundurus, and Mega Scizor for example. However, I would be lying if I said Tauros didn't have its significant shortcomings. Let's start with 4MSS - Fire Blast and Ice Beam are pretty mandatory, while Zen Headbutt is nice for Keldeo and Mega Venu, Tbolt is nice for Slowbro and birds, EQ is nice for Heatran, etc. If Tauros lacks EQ, its walled by Heatran. If no Zen Headbutt, Mega Venu walls it. If no Tbolt, Slowbro walls it. Not only this, but Tauros is rather frail and easy to revenge kill using strong priority, scarfers, or really anything faster than it. Finally, Tauros struggles to put a dent in a lot of stall teams. It can still lure Skarm or Slowbro, common Pokemon on stall, but thats about it. Chansey and Mega Sableye pretty much completely wall it, which can render Tauros almost useless if the stall player expects the set - but almost no one does, so Tauros being able to lure a few common stall Pokemon means it is not deadweight against stall. However, these flaws are relevant, and the reason why Im nominating Tauros for only D rank and not something higher. Tauros's success feeds off the element of surprise. Tauros removes physical walls through luring them like almost nothing else. It is not simply outclassed by something else, like how Pachirisu is directly outclassed by other Pokemon like Lanturn or Thundy-T - nothing lures physical walls and performs well vs balance and offense quite like Tauros does, meaning he has a useful niche and should be ranked. If you look at the definition of D rank, Tauros fits it pretty well.240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 307-364 (87.2 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 390-463 (102 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 265-315 (79.3 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 252-299 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 374-442 (89 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Here are a couple replays of Tauros doing well. My ladder rating wasn't very high but I think they should still be sufficient, Ill try and add more whenever I feel like playing again.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-216880582
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-218562885 -> I played badly for the whole battle, skip to turn 46 if you just want to see Tauros in action.
Here is my Tauros set :
Tauros @ life orb
Ability: sheer force
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rock Climb
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
I assume that this sets tries to lure thing such as Landorus, Gliscor, Ferrothorn or Garchomp to hit with a surprise x4 effective move. Here is the main point of my contribution : luring things often fails, because they can scout your SE move (Ferrothorn, Gliscor) or more often because the opportunity cost to come on against the mon you want to lure without being easily spotted and so uneffective is too high.
Since I understood that point, I tried to often use the two physical moves of the set to hit common switch ins mainly after the lure is evident. Even with 240 atk, Sheer force stabbed Rock Climb hits pretty hard and common physically bulky answers to this move are taken out by the special moves. One thing you must keep in mind is that Tauros will not always cause switches as expected at first because in mid ladder, a lot of players just don't care about it as much as they should, making anticipation risky.
Moreover, with these moves, Tauros threatens a few important mons of the tier and can :
OHKO (or nearly OHKO) :
- Landorus
- Landorus T
- Charizard Y
- Ferrothorn
- Gliscor
- Garchomp
- Scizor
2HKO :
- Latias
- Latios
- Keldeo
- M-Metagross
- Bisharp (except the rare assault vest)
- Azumarill
- Gengar
- Celebi (except specially defensive)
- SpD Rotom-W
Here are mons from S, A+ and A ranks. I just don't talk about faster mons because they usually destroy Tauros but obviously a rock slide can kill Talonflame and severely dent Thundurus, as a Rock Climb does about 60% to Mega lop' or Starmie for example
Here is my actual ladder with the Tauros team :
This study about Tauros isn't finished yet as I want to see if I'm able to ladder to 1500+ and still there with Tauros in the team. I assume that Tauros would never have been my first choice or even a possible choice in my mind before I decided to build a team to try it, and I don't nominate it for any rank, I just ask for further discussion about it before any hypothetical nomination. I'll be glad you want to try out Tauros or share your experience.
Thank you for your welcome and sorry for the mistakes, I'm French.
EDIT : Here a some replays from 3 battles in a row (to show that Tauros isn't always useful and also that I will not choose specific replays to let thing that Tauros is amazing while it is shit in 9/10 battles I prefer to hide, it is defenitively not my purpose).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222442510
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou-222446703
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222448600
Erm, I'm doing a one liner but Hippo does use Sand Force if the team doesn't like sand, it's not like TTar where TTar wants sand up for itself. Hippo doesn't benefit from it that much, so part of the cons are wrong. Also walls don't deal damage...
Edit: I also bolded something to amend in your quote, I didn't look at the whole thing but I saw something that was wrong.
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Don't think Skarmory deserves a rise tbh. Defensive sets rly didn't go better or worse in the last months, and Custap is a bit overrated tbh. Im a fan of Custap Skarmory but still think it isn't very good. Starmie is everywhere nowadays, and most part of team has a defog + a solid Bisharp answer so yeh hazards aren't doing much. Also, Sableye is rly hard to deal with, as well as Diancie if you don't run Iron Head and Taunt users like Mew. In most cases you will just end with SR up but playing 6v5 which isn't super good though.
Since I'm the one who proposed the current slate, i might as well address why i think stuff should move up or not.
Empoleon: B- > B already explained it earlier in the thread, but in essence it is the bulky water that has the most utility and can be tailor-made to fit your team and patch up weaknesses with a solid defensive typing and expansive support options.
Skarmory: B+ > A- http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2500.3526596/page-101#post-6133081 pretty much said everything i needed to.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B lol i find it hard to believe that this mon is really far in viability to that of gallade(which after some time in the tier i feel everyone can attest that it isn't as effective as we had hoped for). I personally feel that it is deserving of B since it is the best wallbreaker in that rank and below. gallade, while it does possess a good speed tier, is only really threatening with an sd which is in itself difficult to set up. cham doesn't have that shortcoming as it can break down defensive cores with ease, 2hkoing some resists even. it also does sport strong priority moves in fake out and bp to keep its pace against offensive teams. i know i'm not the only person that shares this frustration so i'll just copy pasta what my good friend Henry wrote after his experience using this threat:
"M-Medicham: B/B+ guys this thing owns. the pressure it can put on the opposing team even when its not on the field is absolutely insane. adamant with dual priority and dual STAB __still__ gives balance literally no way to switch into it with dual priority often dealing over 50% to offensive pkmn before they can even touch medi. msableye is not a big deal in OU anymore and is legitimately the only thing stopping it, it also fares better against sableye better than gallade even by hitting it with a strong elemental punch on the switch(slowbro CANNOT switch in with rocks/spikes support). even as im typing i cant articulate how much pressure it puts on opposing teams and how many kills it guarantees each game."
Starmie: A to A+ The reason why i think starmie should move up to A+ is because i don't think it is on par with the likes of excadrill, slowbro and latias which currently reside in A. It is the best defensive spinner and the meta really has adopted its presence over some time now. It has a defining speed tier to check things like keldeo, gengar, diancie, metagross, landorus, etc. which compensates for its average bulk and offenses. Not only is it the best defensive spinner, but also a pretty good offensive one. It fills in the gap that greninja left in this meta by possessing extraordinary coverage with added power in analytic. overall, it is a solid contender for A+ and merely dismissing its case at first glance would be attributed to ignorance. below are smogon tour stats for the mons i was comparing it with. as you can see, it has risen in significant usage from what it has originally been and while usage=/=viability, increased usage does reflect as such. (that and most people use starmie as their bulky water>slowbro, check your teambuilder if you don't believe me :p)
| 12 | Latias | 234 | 15.96% | 45.30% |
| 13 | Starmie | 221 | 15.08% | 50.23% |
| 22 | Slowbro | 159 | 10.85% | 55.97% |
| 24 | Excadrill | 135 | 9.21% | 49.63% |
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- Why is this below stuff like feraligatr and mega-tyranitar which currently reside in B-? While it can also function well as a dder, tyrantrum also has the luxury of running choice sets which further its versatility. powerful ass rock stab is also a noteworthy niche it possesses.
Alakazam: C to C+ If reuniclus gets to rise to B-, a zam rise should also be warranted. LO variants are extremely effective in dismantling teams in oras, due to its great speed tier and added power. Also it was wierd that it was below in viability of regular heracross so there's that.
Foretress: Unranked to C-/D The defensive utility set is actually pretty effective in this meta. how it distinguishes itself from say skarmory and ferrothorn, is that it possess rapid spin to preserve your own hazards while being able to get rid of the opponents, possessing the coveted tspikes, and most importantly volt switch. volt switch is crucial in order to maintain momentum which something as passive as skarm or ferro isn't able to do as it maintains offensive pressure which is further added on by hazard damage. here are some replays that showcase it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-38810
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-45539
Empoleon: B- > B already explained it earlier in the thread, but in essence it is the bulky water that has the most utility and can be tailor-made to fit your team and patch up weaknesses with a solid defensive typing and expansive support options.
Skarmory: B+ > A- http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2500.3526596/page-101#post-6133081 pretty much said everything i needed to.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B lol i find it hard to believe that this mon is really far in viability to that of gallade(which after some time in the tier i feel everyone can attest that it isn't as effective as we had hoped for). I personally feel that it is deserving of B since it is the best wallbreaker in that rank and below. gallade, while it does possess a good speed tier, is only really threatening with an sd which is in itself difficult to set up. cham doesn't have that shortcoming as it can break down defensive cores with ease, 2hkoing some resists even. it also does sport strong priority moves in fake out and bp to keep its pace against offensive teams. i know i'm not the only person that shares this frustration so i'll just copy pasta what my good friend Henry wrote after his experience using this threat:
"M-Medicham: B/B+ guys this thing owns. the pressure it can put on the opposing team even when its not on the field is absolutely insane. adamant with dual priority and dual STAB __still__ gives balance literally no way to switch into it with dual priority often dealing over 50% to offensive pkmn before they can even touch medi. msableye is not a big deal in OU anymore and is legitimately the only thing stopping it, it also fares better against sableye better than gallade even by hitting it with a strong elemental punch on the switch(slowbro CANNOT switch in with rocks/spikes support). even as im typing i cant articulate how much pressure it puts on opposing teams and how many kills it guarantees each game."
Starmie: A to A+ The reason why i think starmie should move up to A+ is because i don't think it is on par with the likes of excadrill, slowbro and latias which currently reside in A. It is the best defensive spinner and the meta really has adopted its presence over some time now. It has a defining speed tier to check things like keldeo, gengar, diancie, metagross, landorus, etc. which compensates for its average bulk and offenses. Not only is it the best defensive spinner, but also a pretty good offensive one. It fills in the gap that greninja left in this meta by possessing extraordinary coverage with added power in analytic. overall, it is a solid contender for A+ and merely dismissing its case at first glance would be attributed to ignorance. below are smogon tour stats for the mons i was comparing it with. as you can see, it has risen in significant usage from what it has originally been and while usage=/=viability, increased usage does reflect as such. (that and most people use starmie as their bulky water>slowbro, check your teambuilder if you don't believe me :p)
| 12 | Latias | 234 | 15.96% | 45.30% |
| 13 | Starmie | 221 | 15.08% | 50.23% |
| 22 | Slowbro | 159 | 10.85% | 55.97% |
| 24 | Excadrill | 135 | 9.21% | 49.63% |
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- Why is this below stuff like feraligatr and mega-tyranitar which currently reside in B-? While it can also function well as a dder, tyrantrum also has the luxury of running choice sets which further its versatility. powerful ass rock stab is also a noteworthy niche it possesses.
Alakazam: C to C+ If reuniclus gets to rise to B-, a zam rise should also be warranted. LO variants are extremely effective in dismantling teams in oras, due to its great speed tier and added power. Also it was wierd that it was below in viability of regular heracross so there's that.
Foretress: Unranked to C-/D The defensive utility set is actually pretty effective in this meta. how it distinguishes itself from say skarmory and ferrothorn, is that it possess rapid spin to preserve your own hazards while being able to get rid of the opponents, possessing the coveted tspikes, and most importantly volt switch. volt switch is crucial in order to maintain momentum which something as passive as skarm or ferro isn't able to do as it maintains offensive pressure which is further added on by hazard damage. here are some replays that showcase it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-38810
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-45539
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That bolded part is false. Defensive skarmory got better with the decline of magnezone and because of that it doesn't need shed shell as much and can opt for leftovers.
I'll discuss my thoughts on the current slate:
Empoleon: B- > B
Neutral on this one, but I'm leaning towards it saying in B-. Empoleon is a decent defogger and SR setter; resisting SR for a defogger is pretty nice but it lacks reliable recovery and is slow too. It's supposed to check fairies but it really can't considering almost every fairy-type can run some type of coverage to bop it, for example, diancie runs earth power, mega altaria runs earthquake, etc. Sets lacking Roar are also set up fodder for SubCM Keldeo which has gotten pretty common as of late.
Skarmory: B+ > A-
Hehe this was actually a nomination that I made so there's really not much left to say. Defensive sets have gotten better as the drop in usage of magnezone and steel trapping, and it can also counter a bunch of mons such as Lopunny and Metagross. Custap Skarm is almost on all of my HO teams as it's a pretty amazing spikes stacker and lead in general. If it wasn't obvious enough, I support this.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B
This has been discussed a lot but here are some of the major points why I think medicham should move up. Gallade hits decently hard without an SD but in order for it to sweep it needs to set up an SD which isn't as easy as some may think. Medicham's immediate power can be very useful as it has very limited switch ins allowing it to really pressure defensive cores. Its speed tier also isn't that bad, base 100 is actually pretty amazing for a wallbreaker as strong as medi, and its low speed can be remedied with dual priority to easily pick off like 30%.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
Haven't had too much experience with Tyrantrum (literally used it like 3 times lol,), but I'm sure it deserves more than C+. It has a stupidly powerful 150 BP STAB move that is super spammable, the only drawback being its accuracy which isn't even that bad. CB sets are very effective wallbreakers and paired with other dragons such as CB Dragonite or DD Zard X, it can easily break down walls so that its teammates can have an easier time sweeping. Dragon Dance sets aren't that bad either as Tyrantrum's physical bulk actually isn't that bad and if running lum berry it can even set up on bulky waters that try to spam scald at it. RP sets are very effective late game cleaners. Tyrantrum also has good coverage, with moves such as the elemental fangs, earthquake, superpower, and even toxic to lure in mons like Slowbro and landorus-t and neuter them. Definitely deserving of B-.
Alakazam: C to C+
Eh just repeating my thoughts but whatever. Magic Guard + Focus Sash basically guarantees 2 hits off on any slower mon and one hit against a faster mon. Focus Sash also makes zam a good check to set up sweepers such as dd zard x and dd mega gyarados as it guarantees a thunder wave on them (lol assuming waterfall doesn't flinch or something), neutering them so that a teammate can take care of them. LO sets don't take recoil damage thanks to magic guard and it actually hits pretty hard and has good coverage as well; dazzling gleam, focus blast, hidden power, shadow ball, and energy ball. Golden speed tier as well, allowing it to outspeed some scarfers such as tyranitar and slower. Magic Guard + Focus sash sets, great emergency button and basically a "check all set up sweeper" button and LO sets are decent cleaners with its solid power and good speed tier.
Empoleon: B- > B
Neutral on this one, but I'm leaning towards it saying in B-. Empoleon is a decent defogger and SR setter; resisting SR for a defogger is pretty nice but it lacks reliable recovery and is slow too. It's supposed to check fairies but it really can't considering almost every fairy-type can run some type of coverage to bop it, for example, diancie runs earth power, mega altaria runs earthquake, etc. Sets lacking Roar are also set up fodder for SubCM Keldeo which has gotten pretty common as of late.
Skarmory: B+ > A-
Hehe this was actually a nomination that I made so there's really not much left to say. Defensive sets have gotten better as the drop in usage of magnezone and steel trapping, and it can also counter a bunch of mons such as Lopunny and Metagross. Custap Skarm is almost on all of my HO teams as it's a pretty amazing spikes stacker and lead in general. If it wasn't obvious enough, I support this.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B
This has been discussed a lot but here are some of the major points why I think medicham should move up. Gallade hits decently hard without an SD but in order for it to sweep it needs to set up an SD which isn't as easy as some may think. Medicham's immediate power can be very useful as it has very limited switch ins allowing it to really pressure defensive cores. Its speed tier also isn't that bad, base 100 is actually pretty amazing for a wallbreaker as strong as medi, and its low speed can be remedied with dual priority to easily pick off like 30%.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
Haven't had too much experience with Tyrantrum (literally used it like 3 times lol,), but I'm sure it deserves more than C+. It has a stupidly powerful 150 BP STAB move that is super spammable, the only drawback being its accuracy which isn't even that bad. CB sets are very effective wallbreakers and paired with other dragons such as CB Dragonite or DD Zard X, it can easily break down walls so that its teammates can have an easier time sweeping. Dragon Dance sets aren't that bad either as Tyrantrum's physical bulk actually isn't that bad and if running lum berry it can even set up on bulky waters that try to spam scald at it. RP sets are very effective late game cleaners. Tyrantrum also has good coverage, with moves such as the elemental fangs, earthquake, superpower, and even toxic to lure in mons like Slowbro and landorus-t and neuter them. Definitely deserving of B-.
Alakazam: C to C+
Eh just repeating my thoughts but whatever. Magic Guard + Focus Sash basically guarantees 2 hits off on any slower mon and one hit against a faster mon. Focus Sash also makes zam a good check to set up sweepers such as dd zard x and dd mega gyarados as it guarantees a thunder wave on them (lol assuming waterfall doesn't flinch or something), neutering them so that a teammate can take care of them. LO sets don't take recoil damage thanks to magic guard and it actually hits pretty hard and has good coverage as well; dazzling gleam, focus blast, hidden power, shadow ball, and energy ball. Golden speed tier as well, allowing it to outspeed some scarfers such as tyranitar and slower. Magic Guard + Focus sash sets, great emergency button and basically a "check all set up sweeper" button and LO sets are decent cleaners with its solid power and good speed tier.
Sand force has it's uses for Hippo. On stall it doesn't impede moonlight for unaware clefable and synthesis for mega venusaur or gourgeist-xl. Plus I'm pretty sure hippo does have a sand force choice band set paired with ttar from what I have heard. Also I agree with the the slates that should move up.
I'll give this a shot. My thoughts on the current slate and some other suggestions people have made:
Empoleon: B- to B
I'm not so sure on this one, but I'm leaning toward agreeing. As others have said, Empoleon does a unique typing and good movepool (albeit without reliable recovery), but it has trouble functioning as a fairy check. Air Balloon/Chople Berry sets miss Leftovers recovery, and Leftovers sets are weak to common ground/fighting coverage moves from fairies and other mons. Still, I think the fact that it has so many options at its disposal like Scald, Defog, Roar, SR, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, etc. puts it into B for me.
Skarmory: B+ to A-
I definitely agree with this one. Between its specially defensive and Custap Berry sets I think skarm deserves a rise. Reliable recovery, Taunt, SR, Spikes, BB, Counter, Iron Head, Defog, and a decent ability in Sturdy - Skarmory just has a ton of options it can utilize effectively. Its suicide lead is incredibly effective on HO, and being the only mon who can reliably get up two layers of entry hazards for these teams warrants A- imo.
Mega Medicham: C+ to B-/B
I agree with this totally. At the start of ORAS, Gallade's superiority to M-Cham was emphasized heavily, but as the metagame has adapted and changed, it's become clear that each of these mons has their own benefits. Cham has distinguished himself from Gallade because he has more immediate power and double priority, while still having decent speed. Gallade still has his advantages, but the gap isn't as big as it was at the start of ORAS. M-Gallade was already moved down to A-, and I think M-Medicham moving up would more accurately reflect the difference in viability between the two.
Starmie: A to A+
I actually disagree on this one. While Starmie's defensive spinner sets are powerful in the current metagame, they have to chose between beating pursuit trappers and ferrothorn or beating Keldeo, who we all know to be an incredibly potent threat right now. Offensive spinner sets are good too with amazing coverage options, but I find that they ultimately lack some power due to Starmie's mediocre base 100 special attack. I'll admit that Analytic can remedy this somewhat, but that 30% boost rarely activates outside of the opponent switching, and a lot of the time Starmie wants to rapid spin on the switch anyway.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
I haven't used Tyrantrum at all, but from what I've seen its banded set alone warrants a rise. Banded STAB 150 BP move with no drawbacks? Yeah, this thing is a nuke.
Alakazam: C to C+
I agree with this one. Focus Sash/Twave sets are a nice emergency button for the plethora of set-up sweepers in OU, and Alakazam's fantastic speed tier and good Special Attack lets it act as a nice revenge killer too. Life Orb sets are pithy with coverage options, and again Zam's great speed tier lets it perform very effectively. I don't think Zam should go much higher than C+ though because its pathetic bulk can only get it so far.
Forretress: Unranked to D
Despite its unique ability to set up hazards and rapid spin hazards on its own side away, I just have a hard time seeing Forre's niche in OU. It's far too passive and susceptible to set up sweepers. I vaguely recall reading some talk about dividing the D ranks into subcategories. If that were the case, I think I could see Forretress as a D- rank. I know the distinction may seem silly/small, but hey, my opinion is my opinion.
Hydreigon: B to B+
I agree with this. Hydreigon with a LO is just such a powerful threat given its incredibly diverse movepool, and everything that isn't a fairy or a pink blob fears its STABs.
Mega Alakazam: A- to A
Mega Alakazam is absolutely my favorite mega pokemon to use in OU, but I don't think it deserves to rise at this point. I think that MegaZam is definitely a threat that is underprepared for, but its susceptibility to priority really inhibits it when pretty much every team outside of maybe stall, I guess, carries a priority user. It's speed tier and base special attack and neutral coverage options are truly amazing for a late game cleaner, but its reliance on the shaky accuracy of focus blast is problematic as well. I think A- is a good place for MegaZam.
Slowking: B- to B
Someone brought this up a few pages ago, and it didn't get much discussion, but I wanted to emphatically give my support for this nom. Slowking is great at checking a plethora of common OU mons. With an Assault Vest and certain coverage moves, it can handle non-Pursuit Mega Metagross, non-Knock Off Landorus-I, Keldeo, specially based Mega Altaria, Gengar, Heatran, both Latis, Char-Y, Ferrothorn, Gardevoir, and non-Energy Ball Manaphy from the S through A ranks. Slowking also has a fantastic movepool with good stabs and great coverage options like Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Power Gem, and Dragon Tail for phazing. With some defensive investment, Slowking can even beat some pursuit trappers like ScarfTar. Its susceptibility to the ever present Knock-Off and the physically oriented metagame are definitely drawbacks, but I still think Slowking deserves a B rank.
Empoleon: B- to B
I'm not so sure on this one, but I'm leaning toward agreeing. As others have said, Empoleon does a unique typing and good movepool (albeit without reliable recovery), but it has trouble functioning as a fairy check. Air Balloon/Chople Berry sets miss Leftovers recovery, and Leftovers sets are weak to common ground/fighting coverage moves from fairies and other mons. Still, I think the fact that it has so many options at its disposal like Scald, Defog, Roar, SR, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, etc. puts it into B for me.
Skarmory: B+ to A-
I definitely agree with this one. Between its specially defensive and Custap Berry sets I think skarm deserves a rise. Reliable recovery, Taunt, SR, Spikes, BB, Counter, Iron Head, Defog, and a decent ability in Sturdy - Skarmory just has a ton of options it can utilize effectively. Its suicide lead is incredibly effective on HO, and being the only mon who can reliably get up two layers of entry hazards for these teams warrants A- imo.
Mega Medicham: C+ to B-/B
I agree with this totally. At the start of ORAS, Gallade's superiority to M-Cham was emphasized heavily, but as the metagame has adapted and changed, it's become clear that each of these mons has their own benefits. Cham has distinguished himself from Gallade because he has more immediate power and double priority, while still having decent speed. Gallade still has his advantages, but the gap isn't as big as it was at the start of ORAS. M-Gallade was already moved down to A-, and I think M-Medicham moving up would more accurately reflect the difference in viability between the two.
Starmie: A to A+
I actually disagree on this one. While Starmie's defensive spinner sets are powerful in the current metagame, they have to chose between beating pursuit trappers and ferrothorn or beating Keldeo, who we all know to be an incredibly potent threat right now. Offensive spinner sets are good too with amazing coverage options, but I find that they ultimately lack some power due to Starmie's mediocre base 100 special attack. I'll admit that Analytic can remedy this somewhat, but that 30% boost rarely activates outside of the opponent switching, and a lot of the time Starmie wants to rapid spin on the switch anyway.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
I haven't used Tyrantrum at all, but from what I've seen its banded set alone warrants a rise. Banded STAB 150 BP move with no drawbacks? Yeah, this thing is a nuke.
Alakazam: C to C+
I agree with this one. Focus Sash/Twave sets are a nice emergency button for the plethora of set-up sweepers in OU, and Alakazam's fantastic speed tier and good Special Attack lets it act as a nice revenge killer too. Life Orb sets are pithy with coverage options, and again Zam's great speed tier lets it perform very effectively. I don't think Zam should go much higher than C+ though because its pathetic bulk can only get it so far.
Forretress: Unranked to D
Despite its unique ability to set up hazards and rapid spin hazards on its own side away, I just have a hard time seeing Forre's niche in OU. It's far too passive and susceptible to set up sweepers. I vaguely recall reading some talk about dividing the D ranks into subcategories. If that were the case, I think I could see Forretress as a D- rank. I know the distinction may seem silly/small, but hey, my opinion is my opinion.
Hydreigon: B to B+
I agree with this. Hydreigon with a LO is just such a powerful threat given its incredibly diverse movepool, and everything that isn't a fairy or a pink blob fears its STABs.
Mega Alakazam: A- to A
Mega Alakazam is absolutely my favorite mega pokemon to use in OU, but I don't think it deserves to rise at this point. I think that MegaZam is definitely a threat that is underprepared for, but its susceptibility to priority really inhibits it when pretty much every team outside of maybe stall, I guess, carries a priority user. It's speed tier and base special attack and neutral coverage options are truly amazing for a late game cleaner, but its reliance on the shaky accuracy of focus blast is problematic as well. I think A- is a good place for MegaZam.
Slowking: B- to B
Someone brought this up a few pages ago, and it didn't get much discussion, but I wanted to emphatically give my support for this nom. Slowking is great at checking a plethora of common OU mons. With an Assault Vest and certain coverage moves, it can handle non-Pursuit Mega Metagross, non-Knock Off Landorus-I, Keldeo, specially based Mega Altaria, Gengar, Heatran, both Latis, Char-Y, Ferrothorn, Gardevoir, and non-Energy Ball Manaphy from the S through A ranks. Slowking also has a fantastic movepool with good stabs and great coverage options like Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Power Gem, and Dragon Tail for phazing. With some defensive investment, Slowking can even beat some pursuit trappers like ScarfTar. Its susceptibility to the ever present Knock-Off and the physically oriented metagame are definitely drawbacks, but I still think Slowking deserves a B rank.
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