while specs typhlosion is indeed powerful, esp with eruption, i think that in itself isn't really what makes typhlosion so good, its the fact that it could also be running scarf, that makes it so difficult. even though its really just one or the other (specs vs scarf being the main ones??), it still causes so much uncertainty as to how to correctly switch/sac/revenge kill. rocks kinda nerf typhlosion a lot, but its ability to take advantage of slow uturns/volt switches with a specs eruption or a blaze boosted fire blast is just gross. pairing it with pyroar, a mon with an identical spatk stat, greater speed, stab hyper voice and no eruption just adds even more pressure to the opposing team. of course this is a strategy in itself, "_____ " spam, but i personally don't like it much, though that isn't really basis for determining brokenness. idk i also feel like typhlosion is and has been a staple mon of NU so idk
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Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)
- Thread starter Raseri
- Start date
- Status
-gizmo-
Smogon's Kingpin
Before I ladder, I've got a couple things to say on these two pokemon
Camerupt : This pokemon is just low cost, high reward. Though speed's not that great, and arguably its defensive typing isnt all that great.. While these seem like factors that would spell doom for camerupt, they really don't as its sheer power blows back near everything in nu-- having easily spammable stabs, and even utility in rocks which it can reliably get up because it forces SO MANY SWITCHES. Honestly all in all, this pokemon is unhealthy for the tier so I'll say BAN
Typhlosion : Most people hate to compare apples and oranges, but I'd have to say typhlosion resembles keldeo in this tier to me. It easily finds chances to switch in and do damage to most of the metagame while almost always being successfully able to wear down its own counters. This means that the pokemon doesn't need much support as even heavily used pokemon like hariyama with the intent to swallow fire moves can be quickly worn down, and then oppposing teams are taken advantage of. Though, with this said I think typhlosion is a healthy centralizing pokemon and is fine to stay. NO BAN
Could you elaborate on why you think it's healthy for the meta?
-gizmo-
Smogon's Kingpin
In my opinion, a metagame needs some centralizing force to function. It's a powerful threat that should be recognized and though of when teambuilding and played around carefully when playing. Too much diversity can turn it into what ou is now-- a meta with too many threats to prepare for. At this point in time I don't find typhlosion overwhelming, so I feel this way. I'm always open though, and I may change after I ladder, but again, this is how I feel for now.
This is only a good thing imo
I legit think it's sad people only now realise typlosion had sutch an unhealthy influance on the build
every time i ask someone to name a counter to typlosion i see : hariyama, mantine , regirock and prinplup now these pokes see use in NU some more the others especialy now but seriously do you want to run 1 of these 4 on EVERY team and even run a potential mantine >.> who i can only see as a bad version of prinplup because of rock weakness and no rocks him self
none of these pokes have recovery aka easy to wear things down, it would be stupid to force people to set up rocks just because of typlosion ...however it does still have back up fire blast , in general = BAN
M-camerupt on the other hand is easyer to notice people see it as a new thing so it could still be unstable they think but with typlosion they think it's ballenced because it has been there for so long. I know it's not a so broke thing ban it now pls pls pls , no this thing can actuay do a nice job beating stuff sadly its a wall breaker on a hugh level and with TR you will have to sack a unhealthy amout even if you have a couter >.>
also in general = BAN
I legit think it's sad people only now realise typlosion had sutch an unhealthy influance on the build
every time i ask someone to name a counter to typlosion i see : hariyama, mantine , regirock and prinplup now these pokes see use in NU some more the others especialy now but seriously do you want to run 1 of these 4 on EVERY team and even run a potential mantine >.> who i can only see as a bad version of prinplup because of rock weakness and no rocks him self
none of these pokes have recovery aka easy to wear things down, it would be stupid to force people to set up rocks just because of typlosion ...however it does still have back up fire blast , in general = BAN
M-camerupt on the other hand is easyer to notice people see it as a new thing so it could still be unstable they think but with typlosion they think it's ballenced because it has been there for so long. I know it's not a so broke thing ban it now pls pls pls , no this thing can actuay do a nice job beating stuff sadly its a wall breaker on a hugh level and with TR you will have to sack a unhealthy amout even if you have a couter >.>
also in general = BAN
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First thoughts...
To be honest I was waiting for the suspect of Mega-Camerupt because I've used it almost in every team since it's probably the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. It can set up Stealth Rock, it does 2HKO on everything in the tier, it can be a bulky version with Rest-Talk or include Will-O-Wisp. There are also some versions with Rest + healing support (Aromatherapy). This is probably the best NU Pokemon. Even if it's pretty slow, it has a large use outside of the Trick Room and doesn't require much support. I don't mind banning it because I feel it's very centralizing in the tier.
Typhlosion, after the introduction of Flash Fire has become more broken. The only positive aspect is that it's often locken on a move but it has a great offensive power. It has always forced me to run Hariyama in almost every team or the core Ninetales + Archeops in XY. I'm not sure of what to do with this Pokemon, but that's not as broken as Camerupt, so I think people can deal with it.
I will post my thoughts after laddering.
By the way, just a proposal for the next suspect.. Can a ladder without the suspect mons be added instead of replacing the normal ladder? I feel like everyone involved in the NU Tier knows the Metagame, maybe the ladder can be useful to people in order to try the new metagame especially if they aren't sure of the changes that a ban can cause.
To be honest I was waiting for the suspect of Mega-Camerupt because I've used it almost in every team since it's probably the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. It can set up Stealth Rock, it does 2HKO on everything in the tier, it can be a bulky version with Rest-Talk or include Will-O-Wisp. There are also some versions with Rest + healing support (Aromatherapy). This is probably the best NU Pokemon. Even if it's pretty slow, it has a large use outside of the Trick Room and doesn't require much support. I don't mind banning it because I feel it's very centralizing in the tier.
Typhlosion, after the introduction of Flash Fire has become more broken. The only positive aspect is that it's often locken on a move but it has a great offensive power. It has always forced me to run Hariyama in almost every team or the core Ninetales + Archeops in XY. I'm not sure of what to do with this Pokemon, but that's not as broken as Camerupt, so I think people can deal with it.
I will post my thoughts after laddering.
By the way, just a proposal for the next suspect.. Can a ladder without the suspect mons be added instead of replacing the normal ladder? I feel like everyone involved in the NU Tier knows the Metagame, maybe the ladder can be useful to people in order to try the new metagame especially if they aren't sure of the changes that a ban can cause.
Having just gotten back into NU post-Mega Steelix (been a while :o), I've played a few matches in the NU room as well as on the ladder. I'm still formulating my opinion on the suspects; however, I really don't think Typhlosion or Mega Camerupt are broken to the extent that they be bannable. Here are my initial impressions:
Typhlosion definitely has its checks; Bulky Archeops (takes a lot from Specs Eruption after SR but still can deal damage in return), Hariyama, Seismitoad, Regirock, Mantine, Mega Camerupt, Aqua Jet Rott, SpD Rhydon, Aqua Jet Carracosta, PRINPLUP, are examples of the same. However, the main problem is the braindead spamming of Eruption from full health along with Typhlosion's great Speed tier, doing a ton of damage to even Pokemon that resist it, especially since they don't have reliable recovery for the most part. However, it IS weak to SR, and at least two 'mons on offense are usually faster than it, being able to promptly revenge kill it. In addition, a lot of the time, when Rocks are set up on its side of the field, the user can't afford to use his method of hazard control before sending it out, leaving it prone to revenge killers such as Kangaskhan. Having either Scarf or Specs also makes it fairly linear with little in the way of versatility. I'm pretty much on the dnb side.
Mega Camerupt is really slow, outsped by nearly the entire tier, and has a defensive typing that leaves it prone to common Water- and Ground-type attacks. However, its incredible power, versatility, bulk, and Fire resistance, as well as the fact that there's really no "Mega opportunity cost" to using it, make it an incredibly threat. Fire + Ground is indeed great coverage and Rock Slide or Ancient Power can be used to bop checks like Archeops and Mantine. Earth Power really wears down Yama, although it's still a pretty reliable check. However, although it can run through offense, it almost always has to tank a hit before being able to retaliate in return, allowing it to be picked off by the many revenge killers in the tier. I'm dnb on this too.
Basically both of these threats are incredibly powerful and are pretty polarizing in the meta, what with having to run at least two Fire resists on a team, but I think that both of these suspects tread the line between broken and not broken. Should be an interesting suspect, not sure whether typh was suspected before.
Typhlosion definitely has its checks; Bulky Archeops (takes a lot from Specs Eruption after SR but still can deal damage in return), Hariyama, Seismitoad, Regirock, Mantine, Mega Camerupt, Aqua Jet Rott, SpD Rhydon, Aqua Jet Carracosta, PRINPLUP, are examples of the same. However, the main problem is the braindead spamming of Eruption from full health along with Typhlosion's great Speed tier, doing a ton of damage to even Pokemon that resist it, especially since they don't have reliable recovery for the most part. However, it IS weak to SR, and at least two 'mons on offense are usually faster than it, being able to promptly revenge kill it. In addition, a lot of the time, when Rocks are set up on its side of the field, the user can't afford to use his method of hazard control before sending it out, leaving it prone to revenge killers such as Kangaskhan. Having either Scarf or Specs also makes it fairly linear with little in the way of versatility. I'm pretty much on the dnb side.
Mega Camerupt is really slow, outsped by nearly the entire tier, and has a defensive typing that leaves it prone to common Water- and Ground-type attacks. However, its incredible power, versatility, bulk, and Fire resistance, as well as the fact that there's really no "Mega opportunity cost" to using it, make it an incredibly threat. Fire + Ground is indeed great coverage and Rock Slide or Ancient Power can be used to bop checks like Archeops and Mantine. Earth Power really wears down Yama, although it's still a pretty reliable check. However, although it can run through offense, it almost always has to tank a hit before being able to retaliate in return, allowing it to be picked off by the many revenge killers in the tier. I'm dnb on this too.
Basically both of these threats are incredibly powerful and are pretty polarizing in the meta, what with having to run at least two Fire resists on a team, but I think that both of these suspects tread the line between broken and not broken. Should be an interesting suspect, not sure whether typh was suspected before.
In my opinion
Camerupt: Even tho it is a tank and can anihilate or cripple anything that comes on its way, it still lacks recovery gets hit neutrally from rocks and has terrible defensive typing, with 40 base speed you aren't outspeeding anything unless you run timid, but that would mean sacrificing power. Of course on a Trick Room team it is extremely dangerous, but TR isn't that common and it means it has a max of 5 turns to cripple you down. And last there are plenty of pokemon that can take a hit from it and even stall it out, of course some of them are situational, but I'd go for a no BAN
Typhlosion: It has good stats and it can hit like a truck if you let it, the only thing that makes it hard to handle is if it either runs scarf or specs, but it lacks much coverage, relies on eruption and is weak to SR aswell as any other entry hazard can wear him down quickly, this alone limits the number of times it can switch in. But there are many pokemon that can check this thing, Lanturn, Hariyama, Walrein, Mantine, Ludicolo, Regirock, Samurott, Rhydonn (if no hp grass) and Typhlosion itself with flash fire. BAsed on it's weaknesses and that is always run a Choice item I'd have to go for no BAN
Camerupt: Even tho it is a tank and can anihilate or cripple anything that comes on its way, it still lacks recovery gets hit neutrally from rocks and has terrible defensive typing, with 40 base speed you aren't outspeeding anything unless you run timid, but that would mean sacrificing power. Of course on a Trick Room team it is extremely dangerous, but TR isn't that common and it means it has a max of 5 turns to cripple you down. And last there are plenty of pokemon that can take a hit from it and even stall it out, of course some of them are situational, but I'd go for a no BAN
Typhlosion: It has good stats and it can hit like a truck if you let it, the only thing that makes it hard to handle is if it either runs scarf or specs, but it lacks much coverage, relies on eruption and is weak to SR aswell as any other entry hazard can wear him down quickly, this alone limits the number of times it can switch in. But there are many pokemon that can check this thing, Lanturn, Hariyama, Walrein, Mantine, Ludicolo, Regirock, Samurott, Rhydonn (if no hp grass) and Typhlosion itself with flash fire. BAsed on it's weaknesses and that is always run a Choice item I'd have to go for no BAN
Well I must say both have points that warrant a suspect and I'd agree with it being healthy that we can suspect it.
Personally, I think the camel has a better chance of being banned since it has far fewer checks than typhlosion since it carries the earth power stab which honestly makes team building a bitch. However, the crippling speed makes it not perform as well as it perhaps could if it had just a little more speed to creep the walls in which it struggles against, i would say that it would be gone already, however this is not the case.
From my point of view, it struggles against offense and faster teams since there is very rarely a time when it can get a free switch and actually put in work since earthquake is a common coverage move and a lot of threats in our metagame have adapted by running hidden power water on our rotom-fans and rotom normals to the point where camel really isn't performing its role effectively but more so does well against a team that doesn't specifically prepare for it (i know, obvious right?). I'd say that it wouldn't warrant a ban however just from the speed of the camel alone, it is very easy to revenge kill and stop and unless you're running a mono-grass team, chances are camel won't get that many chances to fire off these powerful stabs that can't be switched into and as far as i know can be dealt with accordingly.
This is where typhlosion differs; it has the speed to fire off and 2 hit ko most of the meta whilst outspeeding a huge proportion of the meta with a base 100 speed (extremely fast for nu wall breaking) and having the ability to oh ko anything that isn't resisted and is slower than it. However, typh differs from camel in another way also as it has a lot more checks and is often choice locked with a specs or scarf to maintain its power or speed to make it an effective cleaner or wall breaker. This limits typh's abilities to wall breaker as there are several fire checks in magmortar, ninetails, typhlosion of your own who can absorb these hits since it doesn't have the ability to hit other fire typhs and can be stopped a lot easier. Which leads me to believe that although it has the higher base speed for wall breaking capabilities, it suffers from a lack of coverage and being forced into a choice locked move to the point where it can also be dealt with effectively and is quite manageable.
tl;dr camel has dual stabs making it hard af to switch in but suffers from slow speed, typh has the speed but lacks dual stabs or coverage, both are a no ban for me
Personally, I think the camel has a better chance of being banned since it has far fewer checks than typhlosion since it carries the earth power stab which honestly makes team building a bitch. However, the crippling speed makes it not perform as well as it perhaps could if it had just a little more speed to creep the walls in which it struggles against, i would say that it would be gone already, however this is not the case.
From my point of view, it struggles against offense and faster teams since there is very rarely a time when it can get a free switch and actually put in work since earthquake is a common coverage move and a lot of threats in our metagame have adapted by running hidden power water on our rotom-fans and rotom normals to the point where camel really isn't performing its role effectively but more so does well against a team that doesn't specifically prepare for it (i know, obvious right?). I'd say that it wouldn't warrant a ban however just from the speed of the camel alone, it is very easy to revenge kill and stop and unless you're running a mono-grass team, chances are camel won't get that many chances to fire off these powerful stabs that can't be switched into and as far as i know can be dealt with accordingly.
This is where typhlosion differs; it has the speed to fire off and 2 hit ko most of the meta whilst outspeeding a huge proportion of the meta with a base 100 speed (extremely fast for nu wall breaking) and having the ability to oh ko anything that isn't resisted and is slower than it. However, typh differs from camel in another way also as it has a lot more checks and is often choice locked with a specs or scarf to maintain its power or speed to make it an effective cleaner or wall breaker. This limits typh's abilities to wall breaker as there are several fire checks in magmortar, ninetails, typhlosion of your own who can absorb these hits since it doesn't have the ability to hit other fire typhs and can be stopped a lot easier. Which leads me to believe that although it has the higher base speed for wall breaking capabilities, it suffers from a lack of coverage and being forced into a choice locked move to the point where it can also be dealt with effectively and is quite manageable.
tl;dr camel has dual stabs making it hard af to switch in but suffers from slow speed, typh has the speed but lacks dual stabs or coverage, both are a no ban for me
I'm not sure about none of them at the moment tbh, Camerupt is pretty strong and it's an amazing support mon that is spashable in most part of team, but while it's hard to find a safe switch-in for it, it's really easy to revenge-kill as it's slow as fuck. About Typhlosion, it has a ton of checks that would be good mons even without it (so don't think it's too centralizing), but Eruption from full health isn't something to laugh at, and being able to run either a Choice Specs (wall breaker) or Choice Scarf (revenge-kill) means it's very versatile as well, but as almost everyone already pointed out, it's SR weak and almost any team has priorities / Choice Scarf user to deal with it. As of now, I wouldn't say they need a ban as by me they don't look too strong, unhealthy or too centralizing in the tier, but I'm up to change my mind laddering / reading some good posts here. Have fun laddering everyone!
Two cents on these suspects:
To put it simply Mega Camerupt is a little too much by NU standard. Mega Camerupt is a definition of a tank. It takes hits, burns stuff, sets up rocks and dishes out even stronger ones. Its speed and 4x water weakness sure is a issue but 9/10 its paired with things like Ferroseed or Mantine which very few water types can break though. Its a real pain in the ass for bulky teams lacking Mantine where it comes in on various pokemons with ease (Vileplume, Garbodor, Ferroseed) and on offensive teams with (Rotom, Fire types) where it pretty much gets kills every time it comes. Trick Room is also one unexplored playstyle where Mega Camerupt can afford to run 4 straight attacks to get past its usual counters like Mantine and just kill everything with its Eruption. I can see balance players having big problems with it but it finds a little breathing room vs offense, so I'm on the fence with this one.
Another mon that has power considered too much for NU. I believe this Typh is one of the most over centralizing mon which basically started fire spam in NU because of it ability to destroy slow and fast teams alike. It, along with Mega Camerupt, is pretty much responsible for high spike in usage of mons like Hariyama or Mantine which is basically on every team. People have found more checks to it like Regirock, Carracosta, Prinplup, Mantine but none of them possess reliable recovery, get punished by coverage or can't keep checking it throughout the match. One of the bigger problems I've experienced with Typhlosion is its unpredictablity. A typhlosion comes in on my Vileplume. Is it frickin Specs or Scarf or Charcoal Willo Wisp? Alright it is probably specs, so I will go to my Hariyama and check it. Nope the bastard goes for Willo-Wisp or even Lava Plume on my Hariyama and cripples it for the rest of the match. Mantine? nope HP Electric coming your way. You're always on the backfoot because if the Typhlosion user gets it incorrect on Eruption/HP Electric mindgame, it simply comes in next time and puts huge pressure on you. People have started preparing it so much that they are starting to forget about it. It also restricts teambuilding severely as every time I build a team I need to carry at least two mons without getting overpowered by it. So I'd vote on banning it.
My thoughts could change during the suspect test laddering so we'll have to see.
To put it simply Mega Camerupt is a little too much by NU standard. Mega Camerupt is a definition of a tank. It takes hits, burns stuff, sets up rocks and dishes out even stronger ones. Its speed and 4x water weakness sure is a issue but 9/10 its paired with things like Ferroseed or Mantine which very few water types can break though. Its a real pain in the ass for bulky teams lacking Mantine where it comes in on various pokemons with ease (Vileplume, Garbodor, Ferroseed) and on offensive teams with (Rotom, Fire types) where it pretty much gets kills every time it comes. Trick Room is also one unexplored playstyle where Mega Camerupt can afford to run 4 straight attacks to get past its usual counters like Mantine and just kill everything with its Eruption. I can see balance players having big problems with it but it finds a little breathing room vs offense, so I'm on the fence with this one.
Another mon that has power considered too much for NU. I believe this Typh is one of the most over centralizing mon which basically started fire spam in NU because of it ability to destroy slow and fast teams alike. It, along with Mega Camerupt, is pretty much responsible for high spike in usage of mons like Hariyama or Mantine which is basically on every team. People have found more checks to it like Regirock, Carracosta, Prinplup, Mantine but none of them possess reliable recovery, get punished by coverage or can't keep checking it throughout the match. One of the bigger problems I've experienced with Typhlosion is its unpredictablity. A typhlosion comes in on my Vileplume. Is it frickin Specs or Scarf or Charcoal Willo Wisp? Alright it is probably specs, so I will go to my Hariyama and check it. Nope the bastard goes for Willo-Wisp or even Lava Plume on my Hariyama and cripples it for the rest of the match. Mantine? nope HP Electric coming your way. You're always on the backfoot because if the Typhlosion user gets it incorrect on Eruption/HP Electric mindgame, it simply comes in next time and puts huge pressure on you. People have started preparing it so much that they are starting to forget about it. It also restricts teambuilding severely as every time I build a team I need to carry at least two mons without getting overpowered by it. So I'd vote on banning it.
My thoughts could change during the suspect test laddering so we'll have to see.
Alrighty, for those of you that do, or don't, know I use Mega Camel as a major staple in my current team. It is an immense force to deal with. Yes, its speed is abysmal, BUT that should not take away from the true problem this thing provides, The sheer power this damned volcano has. Not many things can come in on Mega Camel, and the things that can, can't live its second move of choice. Its power alone is more than enough for it to go, and I can say that wholeheartedly. I love Mega Camerupt, but it admittedly is far too much for the tier, and it's rather unfortunate people haven't picked up on how absolutely obnoxious it is. Stop looking at just its speed, it has FAR more amazing attributes than it does poor ones, and I'm hoping more people can see that for what it really is. I honestly feel as though Camerupt should get the boot, it's an amazing offensive force that nearly has no real safe switch ins in the current metagame. I'd have to vote BAN. I love Camerupt, and I'll likely miss it, but that doesn't change the fact it needs to go.
Typh, ezpz, BAN.
If you really think Typh should stay, I feel you need to really re-evaluate what a "healthy" meta should look like.
Typh, ezpz, BAN.
If you really think Typh should stay, I feel you need to really re-evaluate what a "healthy" meta should look like.
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I agree with you (although my initial thoughts were no ban) because the unpredictability of Typhlosion is starting to be realized as other items / moves like Charcoal EQ / Will-o-Wisp are becoming a thing to check the Pokemon that would commonly check it since Hariyama hates being burned (unless you are real and run Guts AV which I have done before :^] ) and Mantine, who hates being bopped by HP Electric. Although I feel the lack of coverage from Typh is what makes it a bit predictable because if it runs HP Electric for Mantine, then Rhydon, Regirock, and other Bulky Rock-types can check it whereas HP Grass leaves Mantine as a check, I feel that its unpredictability is being found by ways of status (Will-o-Wisp) or by ways of "random" coverage (Earthquake) which is what is making me initially question whether or not it should stay.
Another mon that has power considered too much for NU. I believe this Typh is one of the most over centralizing mon which basically started fire spam in NU because of it ability to destroy slow and fast teams alike. It, along with Mega Camerupt, is pretty much responsible for high spike in usage of mons like Hariyama or Mantine which is basically on every team. People have found more checks to it like Regirock, Carracosta, Prinplup, Mantine but none of them possess reliable recovery, get punished by coverage or can't keep checking it throughout the match. One of the bigger problems I've experienced with Typhlosion is its unpredictablity. A typhlosion comes in on my Vileplume. Is it frickin Specs or Scarf or Charcoal Willo Wisp? Alright it is probably specs, so I will go to my Hariyama and check it. Nope the bastard goes for Willo-Wisp or even Lava Plume on my Hariyama and cripples it for the rest of the match. Mantine? nope HP Electric coming your way. You're always on the backfoot because if the Typhlosion user gets it incorrect on Eruption/HP Electric mindgame, it simply comes in next time and puts huge pressure on you. People have started preparing it so much that they are starting to forget about it. It also restricts teambuilding severely as every time I build a team I need to carry at least two mons without getting overpowered by it. So I'd vote on banning it.
My thoughts could change during the suspect test laddering so we'll have to see.
tl;dr I am changing from no ban to on the fence for Typh.
P.S. I picked Karane's post only because it sort of encompasses what I am questioning about Typh, which is the fact that is Choiced sets are obvious, meaning it can be very unpredictable with Charcoal + EQ / Will-o-Wisp / whatever else it may have in it's movepool and that while Pokemon have risen to check Typh (Prinplup, Regirock, etc.) they all have no way of reliable recovery, meaning they cannot reliably continue to check Typh.
EDIT: 400th post :)
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· CAMERUPT:
-Pros: strongest special attack in the whole tier, 471. Combined with Sheer Power is almost deadly if you don't have a specific counter, aka Mantine (Hariyama is crippled by WoW). High bulk to take some non-STABbed neutral attacks.
-Cons: its low speed means you can't switch it on 2HKO attacks, meaning most offensive teams don't have many problems dealing with it (even sometimes is used as death fodder). Due to the same thing too, you need more predictability when attacking because you'll very probably not going to attack again, but switching out (I've used M-Camerupt and it comes down to this many times).
So, summing up, it's annoying how hard it hits, but it has numerous checks due to its low speed, imo. NO BAN.
. TYPHLOSION:
-Pros: nice speed, so less checks, very high Sp. Atk. and, as said, its counters don't have a reliable recovery move (that's why usually people have to run a core, let's say Rhydon + Hariyama, in case some of them faints). Specs set doesn't need too much prediction, just spamming Eruption / Fireblast, it comes perfect in mid-game for opening some holes on rival's team. Its abilities are both good, Flash Fire to get in on a predicted fire move, or Blaze if used it in late-game (I prefer FF).
-Cons: due to its usage you see counters on every team. Weak to rocks, so you must have something to deal with them in order to pull off those Eruptions. Mediocre defenses. You don't want it to take even a resisted hit because of Eruption (though FB hits hard too).
Typhlosion is used with hazard support normally to achieve 2HKOes, plus thanks to its speed it can actually do that. Also, Typh's counters tend to be bulky af that are no offensive menace, so you can switch out easily. It's difficult to decide on Typh (I just love it, haha) though when building, the first thing I think about is it . I'd rather BAN it.
To compare both, I'm just going to say Typh is much more centralizing than the camel, not broken because they have counters, but someone's going to agree if I say Hariyama is present on 80% of top-ladder teams.
(Excuse my bad English :P)
-Pros: strongest special attack in the whole tier, 471. Combined with Sheer Power is almost deadly if you don't have a specific counter, aka Mantine (Hariyama is crippled by WoW). High bulk to take some non-STABbed neutral attacks.
-Cons: its low speed means you can't switch it on 2HKO attacks, meaning most offensive teams don't have many problems dealing with it (even sometimes is used as death fodder). Due to the same thing too, you need more predictability when attacking because you'll very probably not going to attack again, but switching out (I've used M-Camerupt and it comes down to this many times).
So, summing up, it's annoying how hard it hits, but it has numerous checks due to its low speed, imo. NO BAN.
. TYPHLOSION:
-Pros: nice speed, so less checks, very high Sp. Atk. and, as said, its counters don't have a reliable recovery move (that's why usually people have to run a core, let's say Rhydon + Hariyama, in case some of them faints). Specs set doesn't need too much prediction, just spamming Eruption / Fireblast, it comes perfect in mid-game for opening some holes on rival's team. Its abilities are both good, Flash Fire to get in on a predicted fire move, or Blaze if used it in late-game (I prefer FF).
-Cons: due to its usage you see counters on every team. Weak to rocks, so you must have something to deal with them in order to pull off those Eruptions. Mediocre defenses. You don't want it to take even a resisted hit because of Eruption (though FB hits hard too).
Typhlosion is used with hazard support normally to achieve 2HKOes, plus thanks to its speed it can actually do that. Also, Typh's counters tend to be bulky af that are no offensive menace, so you can switch out easily. It's difficult to decide on Typh (I just love it, haha) though when building, the first thing I think about is it . I'd rather BAN it.
To compare both, I'm just going to say Typh is much more centralizing than the camel, not broken because they have counters, but someone's going to agree if I say Hariyama is present on 80% of top-ladder teams.
(Excuse my bad English :P)
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Just pointing this out but there have been other centralizing pokemon in NU. Mega Steelix was incredibly centralizing and before that we had other centralizing Pokemon. The meta will always centralize around something if Typhlosion leaves, so I'm not sure how that is a dnb point. You also have to consider the meta right now, not what the meta could possibly become in the future. The meta will adapt and if it comes to a point where something else is broken because this suspect resulted in a Typhlosion ban then the council will deal with that new Pokemon accordingly.
I'm on the fence about both suspects, but I'm glad that we are suspecting them and people are on the fence about them as that is something I wanted / expected.
--
A food for thought statement: Don't look at theses suspects as whether or not they are broken in NU, look at these suspects as if they might be to much for NU.
Mega Camerupt is a super versatile pokemon that can set up SR and dish out lots of damage. It hits super hard and most of its checks and counters do not appreciate being burned by will-o-wisp. Even though it's pretty slow, it's actually rather bulky so it can take a hit before retaliating back. It lacks reliable recovery but that's not really too big of a problem considering most of the time it's just supposed to nuke something and then get out. Camerupt's typing also allows it to check pokemon such as pyroar and mawile which is pretty cool. Ban.
Typhlosion is super fast and hits pretty hard, although most of the time it relies on eruption. It's susceptible to entry hazards and can be worn down pretty easily. There are a bunch of priority moves in the tier such as kangaskhan's fake out and pawniard's sucker punch which makes it harder to spam eruption as typhlosion gets worn down. Do not ban.
Typhlosion is super fast and hits pretty hard, although most of the time it relies on eruption. It's susceptible to entry hazards and can be worn down pretty easily. There are a bunch of priority moves in the tier such as kangaskhan's fake out and pawniard's sucker punch which makes it harder to spam eruption as typhlosion gets worn down. Do not ban.
Mega Camerupt - Ban
This thing pretty much destroys most of the metagame, even stuff that can wall it. It is also a HUGE threat to the other suspect, Typhlosion and fits into teambuilding extremely well. With Gator gone, it advanced up fast and even sweeps extreme teams. When I say sweep, I mean like, needs some support. I think that it can also GREATLY confuse the opponent. Bulky set (Will-O-Wisp), Rock Polish, all out attacking, it is truly a monster.
Typhlosion - No Ban
I don't think that this thing needs to be banned. Camerupt murders it. And most special walls can as well, such as Uxie. With it's limited movepool, it relies on Eruption and with that, Stealth Rock screws it. Also, it restricts teambuilding so much that people have figured out with new ways to counter it, so much so that it can even be completely countered.
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I just wish that these two hadn't gotten suspected at the same time, because while I accept that there's a fire problem in NU it's harder for me to decide if this is caused by Typhlosion, Mega Camerupt or the combination of the two that makes it a problem. Personally I would rather have seen two individual tests, for what I think would've made for clearer picture on what's broken. :|
Also can everyone stop hating on Camerupt's typing? Yes it's 4x weak to water and weak to ground, but that's everything. Resisting VoltTurn, being immune to burns and generally just being really bulky helps it out a lot when preforming its role(s) in a team. Just because a mon can't beat something it's weak to doesn't mean it can't be broken. Most of the water types aren't switching in, and the ones that are usually still take a lot of damage from Fire Blast/Earth Power/Ancientpower/Rock Slide anyway.
Lastly on Montsegur's point that if they're too much for NU, I'd say yes. But for me it again comes back to if they become too much together, or if they're too much on their own, something I can't rightly say at this point. What can be said though is for me, this suspect is very similar to Heliolisk; not outright broken, just a bit too good at what they do.
Also can everyone stop hating on Camerupt's typing? Yes it's 4x weak to water and weak to ground, but that's everything. Resisting VoltTurn, being immune to burns and generally just being really bulky helps it out a lot when preforming its role(s) in a team. Just because a mon can't beat something it's weak to doesn't mean it can't be broken. Most of the water types aren't switching in, and the ones that are usually still take a lot of damage from Fire Blast/Earth Power/Ancientpower/Rock Slide anyway.
Lastly on Montsegur's point that if they're too much for NU, I'd say yes. But for me it again comes back to if they become too much together, or if they're too much on their own, something I can't rightly say at this point. What can be said though is for me, this suspect is very similar to Heliolisk; not outright broken, just a bit too good at what they do.
How a pokemon preforms in a different tier shouldn't be an argument for the suspect testing. If something is viable or not in a higher tier shouldn't be relevant when looking at suspects; only what it does in NU, since NU =/= RU.
Uhm. what do you mean by this? if you mean that it can set up rock polishes and threaten offence then it's impossible since it reaches 392 only if you run timid.. so it can't sweep teams. It can definitely break teams apart and dent whatever that is forced in and it is definitely a force to be reckoned with but this statement is a bit weird imo.
Most special walls like what? Mantine murders M-Rupt as well so does that mean it shouldn't be banned? I think when it comes to Typh we need to assess what and how it warps the meta around it. Does it restrict teambuilding? Yes. Is it manageable in game scenarios? Yes. But this is because teams have adapted around this threat by slapping AV Yama onto all of their teams so that they have a Typh/Rupt switch in. Unless you want to run Zweilous or Dragonair, otherwise I think this is a pretty unhealthy situation to be in.
Time to post my thoughts:
Mega Camerupt: This mon is incredibly strong with few counters due to it's amazing base attacking stats + Sheer Force. It may be slow, but it can get a lot of free switch ins on various mons in the meta like Garbodor, Vileplume, Musharna and Xatu to just name a few. Not only does it have this great offensive presence, it has the bulk to go with it; 70/100/105 with some great resistances to some common types in NU make it able to take hits when needed and seriously dent something in return. I believe this mon has way too many tools for it be remain in NU, so I'm heading towards ban for this
Typhlosion: This is, in my opinion, the most centralising force we have in NU currently. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love running Mantine or Hariyama on every team just so that I just get dropped by it, but that's just me. It limits teambuilding a hella lot and frankly makes the tier a bit stale when we're seeing the same things on teams just because of one pokemon. The power with the speed it has makes it an amazing wallbreaker that just punches holes in just about everything and anything. Yes, it has the x2 weakness to rocks, but Specs Fire Blasts still hit really hard, which isn't really that much of a problem for it. I'm all for a ban.
Mega Camerupt: This mon is incredibly strong with few counters due to it's amazing base attacking stats + Sheer Force. It may be slow, but it can get a lot of free switch ins on various mons in the meta like Garbodor, Vileplume, Musharna and Xatu to just name a few. Not only does it have this great offensive presence, it has the bulk to go with it; 70/100/105 with some great resistances to some common types in NU make it able to take hits when needed and seriously dent something in return. I believe this mon has way too many tools for it be remain in NU, so I'm heading towards ban for this
Typhlosion: This is, in my opinion, the most centralising force we have in NU currently. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love running Mantine or Hariyama on every team just so that I just get dropped by it, but that's just me. It limits teambuilding a hella lot and frankly makes the tier a bit stale when we're seeing the same things on teams just because of one pokemon. The power with the speed it has makes it an amazing wallbreaker that just punches holes in just about everything and anything. Yes, it has the x2 weakness to rocks, but Specs Fire Blasts still hit really hard, which isn't really that much of a problem for it. I'm all for a ban.
A Random Duck
Banned deucer.
Mega Camerupt: Sure its slow, but that doesn't mean it can't take hits, and it can definitely take hits that aren't water attacks. Not many pokemon can switch into it; the only ones I can think of are Mantine and Seismitoad (Of course MegaRupt could run Hp grass predicting the Seismitoad switch). It really isn't worth sacking one or two pokemon just to get the perfect matchup against it. I'm for banning Cameruptite.
Typhlosion: Typhlosion... basically a kill and run pokemon. Again Seismitoad MIGHT be a counter if its not running Hp Grass, but then again you wouldn't be able to tell until it's too late. Lanturn and Mantine are probably the best switches into a choiced Typhlosion; even if they predict the switch, Hp Grass only 3hko's after rocks. That's only 2 counters however, as Typhlosion destroys everything else. The only thing that could save it from getting banned is the arguement that you can play around it if its choiced, but then again, if your 'counters' are gone, what are you going to switch into this monster? I believe Typhlosion needs the ban.
(This is my first time posting on a suspect thread so please don't murder me if I messed up thank you ;_;)
Typhlosion: Typhlosion... basically a kill and run pokemon. Again Seismitoad MIGHT be a counter if its not running Hp Grass, but then again you wouldn't be able to tell until it's too late. Lanturn and Mantine are probably the best switches into a choiced Typhlosion; even if they predict the switch, Hp Grass only 3hko's after rocks. That's only 2 counters however, as Typhlosion destroys everything else. The only thing that could save it from getting banned is the arguement that you can play around it if its choiced, but then again, if your 'counters' are gone, what are you going to switch into this monster? I believe Typhlosion needs the ban.
(This is my first time posting on a suspect thread so please don't murder me if I messed up thank you ;_;)
Pretty happy that both camerupt and typhlosion are getting suspected because I have always found them to be unhealthy for the tier.
Mega-Camerupt: I have seen posts in this thread that camerupt is not worthy of being suspected because of its 4x weakness to water/low speed. I actually find these reasons wrong. Mega-camerupt is great in the current metagame as it is blessed with excellent power + bulk and ability. In XY, most of the SR setters were quite weak to Xatu, which is one of the reasons Xatu was S-rank in XY. In ORAS, even Xatu is facing problems switching in vs Camerupt thanks to Camerupt's fire blast + sheer force. It maybe slow but it doesn't matter much as not many mons can switch-in vs Camerupt and its nice bulk allows it to take many hits until its dead while doing superb damage to the opponent's team. There are still some mons that can check it but it is still unhealthy for the current metagame.
Typhlosion: The day I started I playing NU, I knew that this mon is a monster. The great thing about it is its wallbreaking ability. Ever since the ban of Dragalge its become even more of a threat. It is blessed with great power + speed + the move eruption which is biggest problem. With choice specs, its almost impossible to switch-in vs typhlosion making it a great offensive presence. Its SR weakness maybe annoying but it still doesn't matter that much as fire blast is still very strong. It has checks like AV Hariyama but it can always switch-out and come in again when it finds the oppurtinity. Just like Camerupt, Typhlosion is unhealthy for the current metagame.
Mega-Camerupt: I have seen posts in this thread that camerupt is not worthy of being suspected because of its 4x weakness to water/low speed. I actually find these reasons wrong. Mega-camerupt is great in the current metagame as it is blessed with excellent power + bulk and ability. In XY, most of the SR setters were quite weak to Xatu, which is one of the reasons Xatu was S-rank in XY. In ORAS, even Xatu is facing problems switching in vs Camerupt thanks to Camerupt's fire blast + sheer force. It maybe slow but it doesn't matter much as not many mons can switch-in vs Camerupt and its nice bulk allows it to take many hits until its dead while doing superb damage to the opponent's team. There are still some mons that can check it but it is still unhealthy for the current metagame.
Typhlosion: The day I started I playing NU, I knew that this mon is a monster. The great thing about it is its wallbreaking ability. Ever since the ban of Dragalge its become even more of a threat. It is blessed with great power + speed + the move eruption which is biggest problem. With choice specs, its almost impossible to switch-in vs typhlosion making it a great offensive presence. Its SR weakness maybe annoying but it still doesn't matter that much as fire blast is still very strong. It has checks like AV Hariyama but it can always switch-out and come in again when it finds the oppurtinity. Just like Camerupt, Typhlosion is unhealthy for the current metagame.
It would have been great to have those as separate tests, as I'm on the fence on whether it's each one individually or the combination of both that puts such a strain on teambuilding. Mega Camerupt finds its checks in its low Speed stat, even if there are few safe switch-ins to it, while Typhlosion suffers from the need of using a Choice item. It mainly seems to me that having to account for both of them at the same time is what limits teambuilding so much, yet Typhlosion seems to stick out as the most problematic one of the duo.
But now onto individual opinion;
In all honesty, Mega Camerupt is a nightmare to slower teams. I see people using its typing as an excuse, while apparently overlooking the fact that it gets handy resistances to Steel, Poison, and Fire, plus an immunity to Electric. With a respectable bulk of 70/100/105 it even has the ability to switch into a few of the commonly used Pokemon, such as Klinklang, Mawile, Ferroseed, Regirock, Garbodor, and proceed to take out huge chunks of HP out of whatever tries to switch into it. Most of the time Camerupt gets to come in the one using it is at advantage, as the combination of Fire Blast + Earth Power is powerful enough to allow it to pick its own counters by the other two moves it chooses. Hidden Power Electric, Will-O-Wisp, and Rock Slide pretty much ensure Camerupt's break through its most reliable counters in Hariyama and Mantine, which in return have no way of reliable recovery to reliably check Camerupt repeatedly in a match. The only real downfall of Camerupt is that its Speed gives it a really hard time against offense which is probably the most consistent playstyle in NU right now, which is also the reason I don't see it as having such a big impact on the metagame only by itself.
As of now I'm really undecided on my verdict on Mega Camerupt, but I'd tend towards not banning.
hell.exe
eruption.gif
stopthishow.png
And here is the Pokemon that I find as the most unhealthy of the two being suspected. Unlike Mega Camerupt that usually has only one turn to deal big damage, Typhlosion has the Speed and power to threaten out a whole lot of the metagame while also being able to 2HKO another big part of the metagame that would try to switch in. While base 100 Speed may not be the goal speed tier, it is enough to pressure pretty much all styles of play; as of now, whatever style you decide to go with, you have to have a Typhlosion switch-in, you cannot afford to just soft checking it. I find this as very limitating in terms of teambuilding, especially for offense, where your best and only bet would be either Hariyama or another Typhlosion, which by default leaves your team open to other common threats such as Flying-spam or bulky CM Psychics. Besides that, when its Hidden Ability was released I was part of those who thought it would also be a nerf of Typhlosion, but I stand corrected now as I realised how much Flash Fire buffed its influence, to the point where the mere presence of a Typhlosion in the opposing team will restrict you from using any Fire-type move. Now, of course, every big threat also has its flaws- in this case being the need of a Choice item, most of the time Choice Specs. The fact that Typhlosion is so dependent on Choice Specs to do its wallbreaking job consistently also makes it easier to manage, as most of the time your safest switch-in won't have to worry about a second hit, yet even then it pressures the opposing team a lot due to the fact that its most reliable switch-ins have no means of reliable recovery.
Having to specificaly address a Pokemon in absolutely every play style you decide to go with seems too much in my opinion, thus as of right now I'm inclided to banning Typhlosion.
I suppose it's laddering time now, so everyone bring out your Vibrava.
But now onto individual opinion;
In all honesty, Mega Camerupt is a nightmare to slower teams. I see people using its typing as an excuse, while apparently overlooking the fact that it gets handy resistances to Steel, Poison, and Fire, plus an immunity to Electric. With a respectable bulk of 70/100/105 it even has the ability to switch into a few of the commonly used Pokemon, such as Klinklang, Mawile, Ferroseed, Regirock, Garbodor, and proceed to take out huge chunks of HP out of whatever tries to switch into it. Most of the time Camerupt gets to come in the one using it is at advantage, as the combination of Fire Blast + Earth Power is powerful enough to allow it to pick its own counters by the other two moves it chooses. Hidden Power Electric, Will-O-Wisp, and Rock Slide pretty much ensure Camerupt's break through its most reliable counters in Hariyama and Mantine, which in return have no way of reliable recovery to reliably check Camerupt repeatedly in a match. The only real downfall of Camerupt is that its Speed gives it a really hard time against offense which is probably the most consistent playstyle in NU right now, which is also the reason I don't see it as having such a big impact on the metagame only by itself.
As of now I'm really undecided on my verdict on Mega Camerupt, but I'd tend towards not banning.
hell.exe
eruption.gif
stopthishow.png
And here is the Pokemon that I find as the most unhealthy of the two being suspected. Unlike Mega Camerupt that usually has only one turn to deal big damage, Typhlosion has the Speed and power to threaten out a whole lot of the metagame while also being able to 2HKO another big part of the metagame that would try to switch in. While base 100 Speed may not be the goal speed tier, it is enough to pressure pretty much all styles of play; as of now, whatever style you decide to go with, you have to have a Typhlosion switch-in, you cannot afford to just soft checking it. I find this as very limitating in terms of teambuilding, especially for offense, where your best and only bet would be either Hariyama or another Typhlosion, which by default leaves your team open to other common threats such as Flying-spam or bulky CM Psychics. Besides that, when its Hidden Ability was released I was part of those who thought it would also be a nerf of Typhlosion, but I stand corrected now as I realised how much Flash Fire buffed its influence, to the point where the mere presence of a Typhlosion in the opposing team will restrict you from using any Fire-type move. Now, of course, every big threat also has its flaws- in this case being the need of a Choice item, most of the time Choice Specs. The fact that Typhlosion is so dependent on Choice Specs to do its wallbreaking job consistently also makes it easier to manage, as most of the time your safest switch-in won't have to worry about a second hit, yet even then it pressures the opposing team a lot due to the fact that its most reliable switch-ins have no means of reliable recovery.
Having to specificaly address a Pokemon in absolutely every play style you decide to go with seems too much in my opinion, thus as of right now I'm inclided to banning Typhlosion.
I suppose it's laddering time now, so everyone bring out your Vibrava.
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First to get reqs xd
Pretty much ran into like 3 Typhlosions while laddering and more camels. God damn camel is hard to switch into but it is easy to force out while Typhlosion is a problem if you don't have a Fire Spam check. But tbh Fire Spam checks should be on your team anyways. As of right now I'm undecided, I will read all arguments for banning / not banning and will probably decide from your comments :] So post some good arguments.
Some things I was using while laddering:
Articuno @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn
Even though im now an articuno and might be a bit biased This thing literally has no safe switchins that aren't a Steel-type or a special wall, you force so many that you can just U-turn out into something appropriate if they do have one. Otherwise you literally get a KO every time you come in because most people don't carry something that matches up well against it. Freeze-Dry also means you just destroy common Stealth Rock leads. Its natural bulk makes it a good check to Rain Teams and in a pinch it can easily take a hit. Hazard control is mandatory so i was running xatu + prinplup.
Ninjask @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Final Gambit
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
This thing was so much fun to use, I was really pleasantly surprised, it outspeeds some important scarfers / +1 Pokemon with a Jolly nature while forcing tons of switches against Malamars and Psychic-types. Being so fast means its a good mon to lead off with / revenge things with. You need something to lure in and knock off Rocky Helmet users with otherwise you will get quickly worn down. Hazard control is also mandatory so I was using this on a team with Articuno and Xatu + Prinplup, which made me incredibly weak to Archeops and Klinklang but Fuck the Police cause I was able to play around them most matches and I had fun in all the other ones I used this team.
Pretty much ran into like 3 Typhlosions while laddering and more camels. God damn camel is hard to switch into but it is easy to force out while Typhlosion is a problem if you don't have a Fire Spam check. But tbh Fire Spam checks should be on your team anyways. As of right now I'm undecided, I will read all arguments for banning / not banning and will probably decide from your comments :] So post some good arguments.
Some things I was using while laddering:
Articuno @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn
Ninjask @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Final Gambit
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
This thing was so much fun to use, I was really pleasantly surprised, it outspeeds some important scarfers / +1 Pokemon with a Jolly nature while forcing tons of switches against Malamars and Psychic-types. Being so fast means its a good mon to lead off with / revenge things with. You need something to lure in and knock off Rocky Helmet users with otherwise you will get quickly worn down. Hazard control is also mandatory so I was using this on a team with Articuno and Xatu + Prinplup, which made me incredibly weak to Archeops and Klinklang but Fuck the Police cause I was able to play around them most matches and I had fun in all the other ones I used this team.
Sigh, i was five minutes behind this man...
Annoyingly, there were only about 3-4 typhlosions in the 50 games i played which i found very odd but also means that I'm maybe not completely qualified to comment on its potency in this tier especially as this is my first experience of nu since the pre steelix meta. In the games I did play, I really didn't feel that it was in any way overpowered. I was running a very offensive team - the only defensive mon I had was a mantine with 248 hp / 248 def / 12+ spdef which took about 30-35% from a full hp specs eruption. However, most of the time I didn't really need to switch into this as I was always able to apply a lot of offensive pressure with the other mons I had to the point where it really wasn't that much of a threat. Out of the mons in a rank of the viablity ranking, a large number of them either have a good scarf set, outspeed and ko or can smack it with powerful priority.
I understand however, that this is not the sort of team that typholsion threatens and the reason it is considered so good is because of the damage it can deal to balanced and defensive teams. In my mind though, I can think of several good switchins which can consistently take a hit and defeat it afterwards. This includes mons like hariyama, mantine, seismitoad, carracosta, lanturn, rhydon, ninetales and maybe a couple of others. Even opposing typhlosions now discourage eruption thanks to the recently released flash fire. All of these mons also have great niches outside of checking fire types so in my eyes it's not even that constricting to team building.
One of the issues raised is that typh can run coverage moves to deal with the mons that can take an eruption. My problem with this argument is that to employ this tactic you either need to be non-choiced and sacrifice a lot of power or you need to be fairly good at predicting as well has having an opponent who isn't willing or able to scout.
The fact that eruption becomes significantly less powerful on every switch into hazards is also something which must be noted. There are very few good defoggers/ spinners in this tier and keeping hazards up is not especially difficult most of the time. I think someone earlier mentioned that the main issue with phlosion is the ease at which you can spam eruption. With eruption only becoming weaker as the game goes on, I think this point loses a fair amount of weight.
tldr:
- Offensive teams find it very easy to pressure typh. Its mediocre bulk and its bad defensive typing make it easy to kill.
- Balance teams have a lot of checks they can choose to run which have very good uses outside of checking typh, meaning it's not necessarily restrictive on team building.
- Eruption is the main problem with typh and often it's difficult to keep it at full power.
No Ban
I'll probably post thoughts on camerupt a bit later as i'm pretty exhausted. Overall though, i find this tier to be very fun as well as very balanced :]
Annoyingly, there were only about 3-4 typhlosions in the 50 games i played which i found very odd but also means that I'm maybe not completely qualified to comment on its potency in this tier especially as this is my first experience of nu since the pre steelix meta. In the games I did play, I really didn't feel that it was in any way overpowered. I was running a very offensive team - the only defensive mon I had was a mantine with 248 hp / 248 def / 12+ spdef which took about 30-35% from a full hp specs eruption. However, most of the time I didn't really need to switch into this as I was always able to apply a lot of offensive pressure with the other mons I had to the point where it really wasn't that much of a threat. Out of the mons in a rank of the viablity ranking, a large number of them either have a good scarf set, outspeed and ko or can smack it with powerful priority.
I understand however, that this is not the sort of team that typholsion threatens and the reason it is considered so good is because of the damage it can deal to balanced and defensive teams. In my mind though, I can think of several good switchins which can consistently take a hit and defeat it afterwards. This includes mons like hariyama, mantine, seismitoad, carracosta, lanturn, rhydon, ninetales and maybe a couple of others. Even opposing typhlosions now discourage eruption thanks to the recently released flash fire. All of these mons also have great niches outside of checking fire types so in my eyes it's not even that constricting to team building.
One of the issues raised is that typh can run coverage moves to deal with the mons that can take an eruption. My problem with this argument is that to employ this tactic you either need to be non-choiced and sacrifice a lot of power or you need to be fairly good at predicting as well has having an opponent who isn't willing or able to scout.
The fact that eruption becomes significantly less powerful on every switch into hazards is also something which must be noted. There are very few good defoggers/ spinners in this tier and keeping hazards up is not especially difficult most of the time. I think someone earlier mentioned that the main issue with phlosion is the ease at which you can spam eruption. With eruption only becoming weaker as the game goes on, I think this point loses a fair amount of weight.
tldr:
- Offensive teams find it very easy to pressure typh. Its mediocre bulk and its bad defensive typing make it easy to kill.
- Balance teams have a lot of checks they can choose to run which have very good uses outside of checking typh, meaning it's not necessarily restrictive on team building.
- Eruption is the main problem with typh and often it's difficult to keep it at full power.
No Ban
I'll probably post thoughts on camerupt a bit later as i'm pretty exhausted. Overall though, i find this tier to be very fun as well as very balanced :]
- Status