Unpopular opinions

[Norne]

I don't see why you hate Karen's little spiel so much. Like her speech is basically the definition of the game: Use your favorites to win. If we didn't try to play with our favorites, the games would be so boring lol.. This beach guy gives a nice little speech that goes hand in hand with competitive aspects, but Karen's philosophy literally defines the game of Pokemon.

Nope, it's a fail rant that kids pull of their ass to justify why you didn't win or to take the fun away from winning a match, despite actually winning.

You make a team to check stuff in the meta and work around its threats, then you get called a tryhard for using team synergy instead of using fucking sunkern or pachirisu since they are supposed to be your favorites.

In the end that garbage fallacy is the justification of these kids to rant about you using stuff like chessnaugth to cocblock a huge portion of the game in a team lineup and being called a tryhard.

Or to criticize you for not using stuff that are weak to their team, making you are a tryhard(again) that doesn't use his favorites. That's the approach the community uses for the garbage speech, people spawn the typical "use pachirisu or X unviable pokemon for your planned team composition just because of their design or some sort of furry waifu roleplay thing they have going" and justify it with said speech, and then berate you if you don't agree.

Let's also not disregard the improbably cool legends wich designs are likeable as hell... Unless you look like male genitalia (poor palkia) they are the favorite of many, so why not using those? Welp aside being broken as hell and ruining the team building process for many, oh also it isn't fair to use box legends or legends like Landorus in any case as they ruin the fun for the Karen speech guys who want to make a 6 female shiny eeveevolution waifu squad.

The Karen speech was decent back then, but now it's just a terrible thing on the franchise.

 

[jordanthejq12]

And then people fail to realize that, say, Garchomp could just as easily be your favorite. Or people bring up Se Jun Park, not realizing that he put that Pachirisu on his team for a reason. The whole issue is frustrating for me, because I can definitely see why some weaker Pokemon have value to people. They're cute. They're not the ones everybody else uses. Meanwhile, the state of the meta makes it difficult to field those waifu teams and actually win with them, since said teams inevitably are spread across the meta and have zero synergy between them, or end up type-stacking. I actually would love to see a team like that actually work--score that an unpopular opinion, if you will.

 

[Random Passerby]

And then people fail to realize that, say, Garchomp could just as easily be your favorite. Or people bring up Se Jun Park, not realizing that he put that Pachirisu on his team for a reason. The whole issue is frustrating for me, because I can definitely see why some weaker Pokemon have value to people. They're cute. They're not the ones everybody else uses. Meanwhile, the state of the meta makes it difficult to field those waifu teams and actually win with them, since said teams inevitably are spread across the meta and have zero synergy between them, or end up type-stacking. I actually would love to see a team like that actually work--score that an unpopular opinion, if you will.

I happen to have an opinion that is completely opposite to yours. While I have nothing against Park winning the tournament (because I don't care about that format), the manner in which he won (using a Pachirisu) is directly related to the reason we see so many stupid gimmicks now as uninformed people doesn't realise that said Pachirisu was only used to perform one role in the team. Many new players then tried to get too smart in their sets (for example, I saw a Choice Scarf Lando-T with 0 Speed EVs) claiming that their EV spread is something revolutionary or whatever. Maybe it's just me but everytime I see some stupid gimmick like that or Cosmic Power Pokemon or Cotton Guard Pokemon, I will hope the user of these mons gets curb-stomped (whether when I'm watching or playing) since I have absolutely no patience against stupid gimmicks like that (though I have no objections against good gimmicks and lures but something stupid like Tauros? No chance).

 

[noobcubed]

I actually like the Karen speech. It makes total sense within the Pokemon series' narrative, where the principle overarching themes are:

- a ten-year-old nobody has the potential to be a champion.
- trainers ultimately succeed because of the love they share with their Pokemon.

Even in (single-player) gameplay, it is possible to beat the Elite 4 with overlevelled shitmons, and there are probably seven-year-old kids out there doing just that. The only place where the speech falls flat is in the context of competitive Pokemon - which, it must be remembered, didn't exist at the time the infamous speech was written. That the speech has latterly been misinterpreted is a shame, but shouldn't taint the words themselves.

TL;DR I like the Karen speech; I just don't like misuse of the Karen speech.

 

[pika pal]

I actually don't hate Pokemon Shuffle or the concept of F2P spin-offs. Shuffle's been pretty fun for me to kill 10 minutes between my classes, or just in general, and while not something I'd pay $15 for like Battle Trozei, I didn't pay for it, so if it sucks, I could drop it and move on. I'm also confident that Nintendo's smart enough not to let that idea bleed into main series games, so I don't think we're at a slippery slope territory or anything. I'm planning to try out Rumble World as well.

Also, my issue with the Karen speech is that people act like that's the only way to really play the game. Trying to win with your favorites is fine, but you don't have a right to criticize people if they want to play to win. I've seen people who point to that as "Gamefreak put it in, so that's how they want you to play". Well, there's another NPC in the Battle Resort (the area specifically dedicated to battling) who outright says competitive trainers have to be prepared to use Pokemon that can win rather than their favorites. So if their word is gospel, the newer NPC saying to play to win whether or not you like the mons is better. Also, Karen gives that speech right after getting her team whooped by you, so her word holds a bit less water at the time.

I say play how you want, just don't be an asshole about it.

 

[jordanthejq12]

YES. That, right there, sums it up perfectly. Not to mention it also applies to the "get gud scrub" competitive types, the reason half the Internet sees us as elitist jerks.

Anyway:

I happen to have an opinion that is completely opposite to yours. While I have nothing against Park winning the tournament (because I don't care about that format), the manner in which he won (using a Pachirisu) is directly related to the reason we see so many stupid gimmicks now as uninformed people doesn't realise that said Pachirisu was only used to perform one role in the team. Many new players then tried to get too smart in their sets (for example, I saw a Choice Scarf Lando-T with 0 Speed EVs) claiming that their EV spread is something revolutionary or whatever. Maybe it's just me but everytime I see some stupid gimmick like that or Cosmic Power Pokemon or Cotton Guard Pokemon, I will hope the user of these mons gets curb-stomped (whether when I'm watching or playing) since I have absolutely no patience against stupid gimmicks like that (though I have no objections against good gimmicks and lures but something stupid like Tauros? No chance).

Very true. Although we certainly know there are levels of stupid. There's lures, there's gimmicks, there's stuff like Bide or Future Sight that can be absolutely devastating if everything sets up correctly, and then there's Drain Punch Blissey. But you have people who probably thought they could copy Se Jun Park's success, only to realize that that Pachi worked once. Or they use it in Singles, not realizing that the entire reason it worked is because Earthquake, the one super-effective move it's likely to take, is a spread move. I definitely like to see creative stuff, to see good players finding new ways to use the same old stuff. But we have standard sets for a reason, and trying to be "nonstandard" without knowing how isn't good for you, isn't good for the people playing you, and isn't good for the people who see it and think it's cool and want to try it.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

I feel that both speeches are at least somewhat valid. Many of us have multiple favorite Pokemon. It's just now about finding the tier where that Pokemon can REALLY shine. For instance, at the start of this Gen, I REALLY wanted to use Gourgeist (Super Sized) and Mega Ampharos. So, I made a doubles Trick Room team with them and it was amazing on Wifi since I made a whole team that revolved around making sure Mega Ampharos could get a sweep and I kept my Shiny Super Sized Gourgeist as one of my Trick Room Pokemon.

Of course, there's the flip side of the coin. You could make a good competitive team and begin to love the Pokemon even if you didn't love it before. I didn't have any particular feelings about Garchomp in Gen IV but I decided to use it in a "tournament" with my friends where it was my MVP (also in another team Choice Specs Salamence was another MVP but I loved it back in Gen III). And now Garchomp became one of my favorite Pokemon since it proved to be so useful in battle.

 

[Lady Vader]

I don't see why you hate Karen's little spiel so much. Like her speech is basically the definition of the game: Use your favorites to win. If we didn't try to play with our favorites, the games would be so boring lol.. This beach guy gives a nice little speech that goes hand in hand with competitive aspects, but Karen's philosophy literally defines the game of Pokemon.

This is not the "spirit of Pokémon". That has never been the spirit of Pokémon. Everyone always looks inside the game to find said spirit, but they are missing the point.
The spirit of Pokémon lies in the inspiration for the series, back when Satoshi Tajiri saw two kids playing on their Game Boys using a link cable and imagining bugs traveling through the cable. This is the heart and soul* of the series! Being able to trade and battle with others leads to friendship. Think about it, how many of us would be talking with each other if it wasn't for Pokémon? Very few, especially since we live all over the world. But Pokémon unites us. The games talk about friendship, but so many think that it applies to the virtual monsters and attack those who we should be friends with! This is silly and saddening.

In short, the spirit of Pokémon is friendship, but not with Pokémon, but with each other.

*insert HeartGold/SoulSilver joke here.

What I said in that post still stands and arguing over what Pokémon should we use on our teams in a moralistic point of view is silly.

I feel that both speeches are at least somewhat valid. Many of us have multiple favorite Pokemon. It's just now about finding the tier where that Pokemon can REALLY shine. For instance, at the start of this Gen, I REALLY wanted to use Gourgeist (Super Sized) and Mega Ampharos. So, I made a doubles Trick Room team with them and it was amazing on Wifi since I made a whole team that revolved around making sure Mega Ampharos could get a sweep and I kept my Shiny Super Sized Gourgeist as one of my Trick Room Pokemon.

Of course, there's the flip side of the coin. You could make a good competitive team and begin to love the Pokemon even if you didn't love it before. I didn't have any particular feelings about Garchomp in Gen IV but I decided to use it in a "tournament" with my friends where it was my MVP (also in another team Choice Specs Salamence was another MVP but I loved it back in Gen III). And now Garchomp became one of my favorite Pokemon since it proved to be so useful in battle.

This sums up a feeling I tend to have. On using a Pokémon I like is Swampert. I built a whole Hoenn Dex team just to use Swampert. Actually, that team also has Roserade, another Pokémon I've been wanting to use for years and never did.
Again, on the flip side, Pokémon like Gliscor hold a special place in my heart due to the years I have been using them on my competitive teams. Even relative newcomers to my teams have done this, such as Scolipede.
And finally, there are Pokémon I loved before and loved after using them competitively. The first time I saw Scizor back when I rented Pokémon Stadium, I instantly loved it. After using one competitively in both Gen V and VI, I still love it.

 

[jordanthejq12]

This is not the "spirit of Pokémon". That has never been the spirit of Pokémon. Everyone always looks inside the game to find said spirit, but they are missing the point.
The spirit of Pokémon lies in the inspiration for the series, back when Satoshi Tajiri saw two kids playing on their Game Boys using a link cable and imagining bugs traveling through the cable. This is the heart and soul* of the series! Being able to trade and battle with others leads to friendship. Think about it, how many of us would be talking with each other if it wasn't for Pokémon? Very few, especially since we live all over the world. But Pokémon unites us. The games talk about friendship, but so many think that it applies to the virtual monsters and attack those who we should be friends with! This is silly and saddening.

In short, the spirit of Pokémon is friendship, but not with Pokémon, but with each other.

*insert HeartGold/SoulSilver joke here.

Vader_the_White Can I just say that is deep and perfect? We really should be thinking more about that.

Anyway, I can also definitely say that some mons have grown on me as a result of competitive play. Talonflame was always a mon I found strange and intimidating, doing something that Charizard and Moltres could not do, overcoming those sneaky pebbles to excel in the metagame. Then I started using it on the ladder, and when I got to 1200 in the span of a couple of hours with it and Gyarados as my main sweepers, I fell in love. Same with Clefable, which I hated because I've never actually caught one and never saw them as any good...ah, but when it comes in to save the day, be it by Heal Belling and allowing your paralyzed sweeper to finish its job or a quick Moonblast revenge kill, you'd love it, too. It's funny how getting into competitive changes your view of the game.

 

[sickweare]

My point wasn't that you shouldn't use good Pokemon competitively. The reason Karen says that speech is because all Pokemon fans alike relate to that idea of favoritism. Like of course I'm gonna use one of my favorites in-game cause that's what I want. There's a large amount of people who don't do competitive Pokemon so this speech holds ground for them. Of course I don't think people should just use their favorites competitively. All I'm saying is that plenty of people shit on her speech for no reason other than cause they're mad a few people use only their favorites competitively while the rest of us tend to use the Pokemon that are good in each meta. The game of Pokemon isn't about "the meta" as per Norne said. The game wasn't created for "meta" reasons. Karen's speech holds ground because that's literally the only reason we played the games to begin with; to win (beat the champ) with our favs. If people use that as their calling point competitively, that's their loss b/c they probably won't do as well unless they know how to make everything work.

 

[Norne]

My point wasn't that you shouldn't use good Pokemon competitively. The reason Karen says that speech is because all Pokemon fans alike relate to that idea of favoritism. Like of course I'm gonna use one of my favorites in-game cause that's what I want. There's a large amount of people who don't do competitive Pokemon so this speech holds ground for them. Of course I don't think people should just use their favorites competitively. All I'm saying is that plenty of people shit on her speech for no reason other than cause they're mad a few people use only their favorites competitively while the rest of us tend to use the Pokemon that are good in each meta. The game of Pokemon isn't about "the meta" as per Norne said. The game wasn't created for "meta" reasons. Karen's speech holds ground because that's literally the only reason we played the games to begin with; to win (beat the champ) with our favs. If people use that as their calling point competitively, that's their loss b/c they probably won't do as well unless they know how to make everything work.

It's not because they use their favorites, avoid cherry picking, it's that most of the Karen speech kids use that excuse to accuse folks like me that enjoy team building and call us tryhards, unless we use a core that they can break in that case, all is well in the world as they won with their waifus.

And even in the game, I went full Gary after my first metapod, the game pandered to my completing stuff OCD, so I actually used the dex to check stuff and catch everything I could... Then evolve them. By misty I had a primeape, Nidorina, Fearow, Raticate Gyarados, that blasted Kadabra, Golbat and a Weepinbell on my first run on blue point and case. That's what gave me the chills and made me rediscover my love for pokemon in B/W not the immerse yourself in the choosing friends to break a league but mostly on completing the habitats.

 

[JES]

It's not because they use their favorites, avoid cherry picking, it's that most of the Karen speech kids use that excuse to accuse folks like me that enjoy team building and call us tryhards, unless we use a core that they can break in that case, all is well in the world as they won with their waifus.

And even in the game, I went full Gary after my first metapod, the game pandered to my completing stuff OCD, so I actually used the dex to check stuff and catch everything I could... Then evolve them. By misty I had a primeape, Nidorina, Fearow, Raticate Gyarados, that blasted Kadabra, Golbat and a Weepinbell on my first run on blue point and case. That's what gave me the chills and made me rediscover my love for pokemon in B/W not the immerse yourself in the choosing friends to break a league but mostly on completing the habitats.

So hold on: if these kids knew me, they'd accuse me of being a tryhard for not building a team around my favorite (then again, I don't have a favorite, but Tyranitar is certainly one of them)?

So if my Tyranitar core managed to beat their waifu squad, what would they do, accuse Tyranitar of not being one of my favorites?

I'm thinking they'd need to know you pretty well, to even tell you what your favorites are, and hence what you should even try to build a team around.

 

[Norne]

So hold on: if these kids knew me, they'd accuse me of being a tryhard for not building a team around my favorite (then again, I don't have a favorite, but Tyranitar is certainly one of them)?

So if my Tyranitar core managed to beat their waifu squad, what would they do, accuse Tyranitar of not being one of my favorites?

I'm thinking they'd need to know you pretty well, to even tell you what your favorites are, and hence what you should even try to build a team around.

It's more of the fact that you use a popular pokemon to patch a team weakness in a core. An example would be the inclusion of bulky Landorus/scizor to patch a fighting type weakness in a sand rush excadril team, since they see Lando as a cheap fix to one of their pokemon they would call you a try hard.

In the worst case scenario stuff like foulplay cleric umbreon(Greninja era) or spdef Taunt chessnaugth that are immediate patches to some strats if they are speedcreeped a bit despite not being common are considered tryhard to them.

That comes from my experience with this kind of strats.

Pretty much be a common or uncommon set that doesn't let them fulfill their team roles cause the Karen speech to rise in the business of you are only using that pokemon to do that, instead of using a pokemon you like. Consider the p2 argument on Msalamence era on this.

 

[JES]

It's more of the fact that you use a popular pokemon to patch a team weakness in a core. An example would be the inclusion of bulky Landorus/scizor to patch a fighting type weakness in a sand rush excadril team, since they see Lando as a cheap fix to one of their pokemon they would call you a try hard.

In the worst case scenario stuff like foulplay cleric umbreon(Greninja era) or spdef Taunt chessnaugth that are immediate patches to some strats if they are speedcreeped a bit despite not being common are considered tryhard to them.

That comes from my experience with this kind of strats.

Pretty much be a common or uncommon set that doesn't let them fulfill their team roles cause the Karen speech to rise in the business of you are only using that pokemon to do that, instead of using a pokemon you like. Consider the p2 argument on Msalamence era on this.

So they would call me a tryhard if I used some random Ghost, Flying, and Psychic type to plug up Tyranitar's Fighting type weakness, for example.

 

[Norne]

So they would call me a tryhard if I used some random Ghost, Flying, and Psychic type to plug up Tyranitar's Fighting type weakness, for example.

If the only purpose of that pokemon is to serve as a pivot or momentum grabber for the team that uses tyranitar checking or serving as utility against those treats in the meta or their less viable versions on waifu status for the other player, the answer is yes.

 

[JES]

If the only purpose of that pokemon is to serve as a pivot or momentum grabber for the team that uses tyranitar checking or serving as utility against those treats in the meta or their less viable versions on waifu status for the other player, the answer is yes.

Then I'd love to see their response when I tell them that Gengar and Lugia happen to be some of my favorites as well, if I use them as supports.

 

[Norne]

Then I'd love to see their response when I tell them that Gengar and Lugia happen to be some of my favorites as well, if I use them as supports.

I'm amazed that you haven't found the same amount of vocal Karen speech kids as I have...

 

[Celever]

I'm amazed that you haven't found the same amount of vocal Karen speech kids as I have...

I didn't know it was a thing until before this thread.

Anyway, your problem isn't Karen's speech, it's the people who use it wrongly. I just want to say how much I love the fact that Karen's speech is likely supposed to represent the misunderstood side of evil and the pure innocence she exerts could be corrupted by her Pokémon, but her main claim to fame is being used for evil. Guess she can't escape it!

 

[JES]

I'm amazed that you haven't found the same amount of vocal Karen speech kids as I have...

Where do you even meet these kids? Do you just have a lot of kids that live near you who play, or do they lurk here and on Showdown?

 

[Lady Vader]

I'm amazed that you haven't found the same amount of vocal Karen speech kids as I have...

Most of the kids I've played against use every gift/legendary Pokémon they've gotten. With X and Y, it was Lucario, Blaziken, Charizard (always Charizard), and Xerneas/Yveltal. With ORAS, it is Rayquaza, Latios/Latias, Primal Groudon and/or Primal Kyogre (sometimes, they have both). So to be honest, they aren't the kind of kids who would cite Karen against me since they would be hypocrites since most of them will use powerful Legendaries against me, especially after the release of ORAS.

 

[Norne]

Where do you even meet these kids? Do you just have a lot of kids that live near you who play, or do they lurk here and on Showdown?

Wifi loads of kids go "strong pokemon weak yadda yadda, pachirisu" on PSS or in the chat if someone challenges me and I add their FC, showdown OU(Mostly OU low ladder), tournaments on my city, they follow smogon but the people here are bitter as hell and most copy paste featured teams or RMT from this site, it's sad XD.

 

[Daemul]

Meh, Karen's speech doesn't bother me, I mean, it is pretty much true, you actually can go through the game with your favourites, whether they're statistically strong or not, and become Champion. I do it all the time, so I don't really see anything wrong with it.

I guess applying it to competitive play could come off as a bit pretentious, but meh, I don't know, I've seen people use it in that scenario and it's never annoyed me to be honest, they aren't doing any harm. Besides, there's other aspects of the Pokemon fandom that desperately need to be sorted out first before we start going after pretentious Karen fans.

 

[noobcubed]

Y'know what. I DO win with my favourites. Because whatever brings me success quickly becomes my favourites.

 

[Daemul]

Y'know what. I DO win with my favourites. Because whatever brings me success quickly becomes my favourites.

Eh......

:P

 

[Cresselia~~]

Y'know what. I DO win with my favourites. Because whatever brings me success quickly becomes my favourites.

I do tend to perform better on Pokemon Showdown with Pokemon I like, even if my favorite batch doesn't consist of the most viable of Pokemon.
I think it might be a psychological thing.