Scarf annihilates stall?Finally getting around to posting this after getting reqs. My final thoughts on the Pokemon on the chopping block:
At first I truly wondered how Camerupt could be broken. It has a (for the most part) poor defensive typing, as well as a terrible speed tier outside of trick room. Once i started playing I realized that this thing is actually quite bad for the metagame. It's just such a low risk pokemon. It doesn't need much to function whatsoever as its glaring weaknesses are easy to cover, while the pokemon that can hit it can't even really switch in anyways! Most switchins catch a wisp or a powerful sheer force boosted stab to the face, or just a free turn to grab rocks since camerupt forces out soooo much... This pokemon is just too easy to use for the reward it hands you. I'm going to have to say BAN
It took me even longer to decide on whether or not typhlosion is an unhealthy pokemon, but at this point I'm leaning towards the ban side. This thing along with camerupt really make the tier stagnant, with a lot of effort being directed at nothing other than preventing fire spam at any point in the game. On top of that, typhlosion is more versatile than it's given credit for. Charcoal wisp does great vs more balanced builds, while scarf annihilates stall, and then there's the power herb solar beam/hp water/wild charge/fire blast set which is hilarious, though i'm not sure how good it is(worked really well in practice) I feel like this pokemon just puts too heavy of a strain on teambuilding, creating a metagame where all teams look a little too similar. BAN
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Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)
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Smogon's Kingpin
Meant specs my bad.
fixed j4u iplaytennislol :{D
fixed j4u iplaytennislol :{D
Okay so, its time for me to post my thoughts as well, seeing as I got reqs a while ago and have been putting this off, mostly because I still don't really know what I'll vote.
Mega-Camerupt:
Okay so I'll try not to say everything everyone else has said already. We chose to suspect M-Rupt almost to see what people thought and not because it was clearly too overwhelming for the NU metagame which has lead to a healthy suspect test where the outcome isn't so obvious. However, I think the outcome of the M-Rupt test is now becoming obvious, on this beast, I'd have to say BAN. The reasons for this are that there aren't any clear checks to this mon that spring to mind when I open the teambuilder to start building. Let alone counters, there aren't even any CHECKS. Like seriously, Assault Vest SpD Hariyama, crippled by a Will-O-Wisp. Mantine, dies to rocks and a few Fire Blasts or a well timed Rock Slide. SpD Rhydon has to be careful not to switch into an Earth Power. Archeops is the same story as Mantine. Additionally, Mega-Rupt needs little if any team support to perform its role. Anything that absorbs a water attack aimed at revenge killing Camerupt makes it a deadly combination, each time you get him back in safely, something else dies.
Typhlosion:
A lot of the same applies to Typhlosion as said above, but on a lesser scale I feel. This decision is harder for me than the Mega-Rupt one, I feel like Typh has some flaws that Rupt doesn't like its lack of dual stab or decent coverage, and that it needs to fill 2 or 3 of its move slots with fire moves to perform at its best. With the upsurge in the use of Typh, teambuilding has become more limited than I feel it has with Mega-Rupt. Since you have to prepare to outspeed this beast as well as kill it. Hariyama, the biggest check/counter to Typh now gets crippled, like with Mega-Rupt, by a Will-O-Wisp. Not to mention, the upsurge in the use of the charcoal Typhlosion set which fakes being choiced means Typh also destroys its Water checks like Toad and Quagsire which come in to meet it's Eruptions. This thing is scary and not much switches in, but the main reason this thing should be banned is due to the way it limits teambuilding. I have to put Toad and Yama on every team just so I don't lose to team matchup, so I think I'll be voting BAN.
As a side not, as I said in an earlier post. I think as a rational human being, I will naturally be taking into account that we're about to lose Rupt, Toad and Quag to usage. 3 Typhlosion checks just gone, that's only going to make things worse. Just something to bare in mind that's all~
Mega-Camerupt:
Okay so I'll try not to say everything everyone else has said already. We chose to suspect M-Rupt almost to see what people thought and not because it was clearly too overwhelming for the NU metagame which has lead to a healthy suspect test where the outcome isn't so obvious. However, I think the outcome of the M-Rupt test is now becoming obvious, on this beast, I'd have to say BAN. The reasons for this are that there aren't any clear checks to this mon that spring to mind when I open the teambuilder to start building. Let alone counters, there aren't even any CHECKS. Like seriously, Assault Vest SpD Hariyama, crippled by a Will-O-Wisp. Mantine, dies to rocks and a few Fire Blasts or a well timed Rock Slide. SpD Rhydon has to be careful not to switch into an Earth Power. Archeops is the same story as Mantine. Additionally, Mega-Rupt needs little if any team support to perform its role. Anything that absorbs a water attack aimed at revenge killing Camerupt makes it a deadly combination, each time you get him back in safely, something else dies.
Typhlosion:
A lot of the same applies to Typhlosion as said above, but on a lesser scale I feel. This decision is harder for me than the Mega-Rupt one, I feel like Typh has some flaws that Rupt doesn't like its lack of dual stab or decent coverage, and that it needs to fill 2 or 3 of its move slots with fire moves to perform at its best. With the upsurge in the use of Typh, teambuilding has become more limited than I feel it has with Mega-Rupt. Since you have to prepare to outspeed this beast as well as kill it. Hariyama, the biggest check/counter to Typh now gets crippled, like with Mega-Rupt, by a Will-O-Wisp. Not to mention, the upsurge in the use of the charcoal Typhlosion set which fakes being choiced means Typh also destroys its Water checks like Toad and Quagsire which come in to meet it's Eruptions. This thing is scary and not much switches in, but the main reason this thing should be banned is due to the way it limits teambuilding. I have to put Toad and Yama on every team just so I don't lose to team matchup, so I think I'll be voting BAN.
As a side not, as I said in an earlier post. I think as a rational human being, I will naturally be taking into account that we're about to lose Rupt, Toad and Quag to usage. 3 Typhlosion checks just gone, that's only going to make things worse. Just something to bare in mind that's all~
By playing NU I stopped playing bulky teams due to the impossibility to check the powerful threats that have always been into this tier since the introduction of ORAS. Now I think that the best way to play are offensive teams with some set up sweepers. I think you can't check threats such as Typhlosion and Camerupt in the current NU because there's nothing that can switch in against it to get Eruption bar Hariyama. Mantine is 3HKOed by Specs Eruption after the Stealth Rock damage, so it means that it gets almost 50% every time it switches in. So it's very easy to play around it. Seismotoad, Quagsire are 2HKOed by Eruption + they are very passive. They can't even switch in and it's very easy to deal with them. Probably Hariyama is the best counter for it getting ~25% by Eruption and a little damage from Stealth Rock. Typhlosion has still Extrasensory to deal with Hariyama. Ninetales and other Typhlosion are crippled by Stealth Rock + Extrasensory/Focus Blast. The only counter has always been Special Defensive Camerupt with Rest and Sleep Talk, but someone started playing Hidden Power Water even if it's often a wasted slot which could be used for Extrasensory, Hidden Power Grass or something better. If Camerupt gets banned, one of the best checks will disappear from the tier, as Orphic has just stated, and there won't be any reason to run Hp Water, making Hidden Power Grass a standard and better move. So, after considering this, I think that banning Camerupt and keeping Typhlosion would be detrimental because it would force people to run Offensive teams, making the revenge-kill the only way to deal with Typhlosion like I've done for this suspect. And this is the definition of centralizing Pokemon which limits the teambuilding. Therefore, I will vote BAN for both the suspected Pokemon.
This thing is very broken in the tier as it can either OHKO or 2HKO a majority of the tier. Most of the pokemon in the tier that resist its Fire STAB do not appreciate taking a sheer force earth power. Its checks are limited to Hariyama and Mantine but Hariyama is either crippled by Will-O-Wisp or taking a huge chunk of damage from earth power. Mantine can get wrecked on the switch in with the appropriate coverage move such as hp electric and Rock slide. Furthermore, its two checks do not have a form of recovery and thus, would get worn down easily. Mega Camerupt also has great bulk that mitigates its low speed. Overall, this thing is a threat that deserves a Ban as it restricts teambuilding. I always find myself picking Hariyama or Mantine to my teams to check Mega Camerupt .It also has great utility in Stealth Rock and Will-O-Wisp and monstrous offensive prowess, coupled with sheer force, can dent teams with ease.
Typhlosion:
Im still on the fence with this one maybe i'll post my thoughts on it once i've made a decision but atm, im leaning toward a Ban
I finally have gotten around to some hard laddering so I can post my thoughts now. For mega Camerupt though it is slow and can easily be taken out, being out sped even by things like defensive toad and just about everything in the tier the damage it deals is threatening enough to counteract this weakness. Anything that can take a fire blast or an earth power most likely can't take both and even on the off chance it can like av hariyama switching into a mega Camerupt will wear down a check extremely quickly considering the damage it deals. Most teams simply have to sacrifice something every time Camerupt comes in and afterwords can switch out after the counter is sent in. Camerupt is almost deserving of ban even just looking at two moves it can use but after considering it can easily set up rocks on forced switches and has access to hp electric to deal with things like mantine I have to vote Ban on this one.
As for typhlosion it is a very similar pokemon to camerupt in the sense it hits like a truck but is also limited in different ways. Most of the sets run are either specs ore scarf so being locked into a move makes it slightly easier to deal with. The problem is even locked in typhlosion is doing massive work. With specs typhlosion will do massive damage to anything that might try take a hit getting constantly worn down, eventually you will need to hope you have something on your team faster than typhlosion, which isn't even very slow by any means to take it out. This further limits what will be used in building. As for scarf, switch ins will be taking less damage but once those switch ins are dealt with teams would need some insane priority to take out typhlosion. As the battle begins you won't even know the set the typhlosion is, maybe it isn't even choiced so teams have to blindly go around sacrificing things hoping for no hp grass for bulky waters and no extrasensory wearing down hariyama. All in all typhlosion is very difficult to deal with for even the most prepared teams so I vote Ban on this one also.
As for typhlosion it is a very similar pokemon to camerupt in the sense it hits like a truck but is also limited in different ways. Most of the sets run are either specs ore scarf so being locked into a move makes it slightly easier to deal with. The problem is even locked in typhlosion is doing massive work. With specs typhlosion will do massive damage to anything that might try take a hit getting constantly worn down, eventually you will need to hope you have something on your team faster than typhlosion, which isn't even very slow by any means to take it out. This further limits what will be used in building. As for scarf, switch ins will be taking less damage but once those switch ins are dealt with teams would need some insane priority to take out typhlosion. As the battle begins you won't even know the set the typhlosion is, maybe it isn't even choiced so teams have to blindly go around sacrificing things hoping for no hp grass for bulky waters and no extrasensory wearing down hariyama. All in all typhlosion is very difficult to deal with for even the most prepared teams so I vote Ban on this one also.
Went through the long and arduous process of getting reqs (I used weather lol)
Sweet Jesus and hollywood (and a few others I think) are right that a major problem with both Typh and Mega Camerupt is each other's presence, as Pokemon like Mantine are frankly insufficient for Typh even though they can switch into Camerupt, while Pokemon like Rhydon, Flash Fire mons, and Regirock are generally decent to great answers to Typh yet straight up lose to Camel. This compounded by their ability to fairly easily wear down their counters, most of which lack recovery, with strong hits (or even decent prediction) makes it so that they're very limiting to teambuilding, with most teams being forced to pack at least two decent fire resistances.
Mega Camerupt is, at least imo, the more obviously broken of the two, and it's ridiculously easy to fit it into a team. It's power is simply ridiculous, and its STABs are so good it can run coverage for basically all of its counters in Rock Slide or HP Electric. It can even run moves such as Will-O-Wisp for Yama, Substitute to make prediction easier, or even Yawn to just kinda wreck havok (especially since most teams don't have more than one reliable switch-in). This ability to nuke most of its switch-ins is compounded by a great typing, other than a 4x weakness to Water, that gives it opportunities to come in on Poison-, Grass-, Electric-, Fairy-, Electric-, and Fire-types, all of which are very popular. Mega Camerupt's sheer power makes it so most teams are forced to play aggressively against it or else they risk losing a Pokemon or having it severely weakened, and NU simply lacks sufficient answers to it for it to stay in the tier. The incredible rise in Mantine usage, and the high usage of Hariyama, is a testament to how centralizing a presence it is in NU. Ban
Typhlosion is, frankly, an unhealthy presence in the meta. Eruption is such a ridiculously powerful move that even bulky resists such as Hariyama and SpD Toad/Rhydon are easily worn down over time, and it along with Fire Blast is generally all it has to spam throughout the match. This is not even taking into account all its possible coverage options, as while they're not good to be locked into, they allow Typh to get past basically all of its counters. The rise of the Charcoal set since Flash Fire was released has only made Typhlosion harder to handle, as not only can it beat or wear down a lot of its checks and counters with a coverage move (HP Grass, Earthquake, even HP Electric/Thunder Punch or Focus Blast) or Will-O-Wisp, it gained defensive utility as the opponent simply can't spam Fire-type moves. Did I mention it can bluff a choice item? But overall, it's Typh's effect on teambuilding that makes it too much for NU; it's sheer power and coverage makes it so that most times a single check/counter isn't going to cut it, else you want to lose a Pokemon every time Typh comes in once the check/counter has switched only once into it. The fact that Typh was only second in usage to Hariyama (which is pretty largely this popular because of Typh in the first place) shows just how centralizing it is. Ban
tldr: I don't want to see Yama/Mantine in almost all balance teams
Sweet Jesus and hollywood (and a few others I think) are right that a major problem with both Typh and Mega Camerupt is each other's presence, as Pokemon like Mantine are frankly insufficient for Typh even though they can switch into Camerupt, while Pokemon like Rhydon, Flash Fire mons, and Regirock are generally decent to great answers to Typh yet straight up lose to Camel. This compounded by their ability to fairly easily wear down their counters, most of which lack recovery, with strong hits (or even decent prediction) makes it so that they're very limiting to teambuilding, with most teams being forced to pack at least two decent fire resistances.
Mega Camerupt is, at least imo, the more obviously broken of the two, and it's ridiculously easy to fit it into a team. It's power is simply ridiculous, and its STABs are so good it can run coverage for basically all of its counters in Rock Slide or HP Electric. It can even run moves such as Will-O-Wisp for Yama, Substitute to make prediction easier, or even Yawn to just kinda wreck havok (especially since most teams don't have more than one reliable switch-in). This ability to nuke most of its switch-ins is compounded by a great typing, other than a 4x weakness to Water, that gives it opportunities to come in on Poison-, Grass-, Electric-, Fairy-, Electric-, and Fire-types, all of which are very popular. Mega Camerupt's sheer power makes it so most teams are forced to play aggressively against it or else they risk losing a Pokemon or having it severely weakened, and NU simply lacks sufficient answers to it for it to stay in the tier. The incredible rise in Mantine usage, and the high usage of Hariyama, is a testament to how centralizing a presence it is in NU. Ban
Typhlosion is, frankly, an unhealthy presence in the meta. Eruption is such a ridiculously powerful move that even bulky resists such as Hariyama and SpD Toad/Rhydon are easily worn down over time, and it along with Fire Blast is generally all it has to spam throughout the match. This is not even taking into account all its possible coverage options, as while they're not good to be locked into, they allow Typh to get past basically all of its counters. The rise of the Charcoal set since Flash Fire was released has only made Typhlosion harder to handle, as not only can it beat or wear down a lot of its checks and counters with a coverage move (HP Grass, Earthquake, even HP Electric/Thunder Punch or Focus Blast) or Will-O-Wisp, it gained defensive utility as the opponent simply can't spam Fire-type moves. Did I mention it can bluff a choice item? But overall, it's Typh's effect on teambuilding that makes it too much for NU; it's sheer power and coverage makes it so that most times a single check/counter isn't going to cut it, else you want to lose a Pokemon every time Typh comes in once the check/counter has switched only once into it. The fact that Typh was only second in usage to Hariyama (which is pretty largely this popular because of Typh in the first place) shows just how centralizing it is. Ban
tldr: I don't want to see Yama/Mantine in almost all balance teams
Can I also say how these fire types cause the meta to be infested by balance with the exact same mons? Most of the teams I saw were if not anything else over prepared for fire spam carrying as many as three fire checks at any given time. If that's not indicative of over centralization I don't know what is. Not mentioning here the sick Lure Typhlosion with Will-O-Wisp and Earthquake that nails all of its usual checks and counters,said Typhlosion is an excellent check to you guessed it...opposing Typhlosion. There is literally a Tyhplosion set to beat its checks that also checks opposing Choiced Typhlosion, every team right now is inherently at a disadvantage if its not running either of Mega Camerupt or Typhlosion both of which offer power unmatched by the rest of the tier at the moment.
ok im finally back and im gonna make my post on the suspects. I'm only gonna post on typhlosion because camerupt is leaving at the end of the month anyways so i'll probably just vote abstain on it, besides im neutral on it anyways
ok so when i look at typhlosion I see a mon that everyone needs to prepare for when building in NU, and tbh I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing. When I look at a lot of the ban arguments, I see a lot of stuff about how even the bulkiest of resists get worn down by continually switching in to eruption, but when I look at it practically, the same argument can be made against typhlosion in a sense. I think we need to look at this in a realistic sense in where Typhlosion isn't always going to be at 100% and firing off 150 BP Eruptions throughout the game. Typhlosion really can't switch into anything in order to keep its eruption at full power and even if it gets a free switch-in, one switch in to Stealth Rock takes away any benefit of Eruption over Fire Blast other than the improved accuracy. Priority and Hazards are both extremely common ways to wear typhlosion down and both are extremely common in NU. Also, for all the people that say that wearing down typhlosion isn't an argument due to the fact that blaze eruption is more powerful, I emplore you to look at last months usage stats where more than 77% of typhlosions were running Flash Fire. The introduction of flash fire to typhlosion was arguably the best thing that could have happened due to the fact that once you wear down typhlosion, you take away the reason that it's suspect worthy which is the power of specs eruption. That's also why I don't like all these arguments about charcoal wisp typhlosion and scarf typh because if you aren't running specs, you aren't taking advantage of its overwhelming wallbreaking power with specs eruption. You may be "luring" all the fire type checks but for what? You've already taken the power out of the strongest fire-type attacker in the tier that you would normally try and lure for. Camerupt does a much better job at luring Hariyama with it's wisp and physical sets. This is also a reason why I think that it's not exactly optimal that we are suspecting both of these mons at the same time. Without camerupt doing what it does, typhlosion is much easier to check throughout the use of traditional fire checks, without worrying about camerupt doing its thing and luring them out.
Another thing i'm gonna go into here is when people talk about how you basically need to run Hariyama or Mantine in order to reliably beat typhlosion which I don't believe to be the truth at all. Each playstyle has their own ways to beat typhlosion that aren't restricted to hariyama or mantine. Both hariyama and mantine are both pretty lazy answers and I feel that a lot of inexperienced builders (circa myself and many others at the end of xy) use it as a crutch when building and ask it to check far too many things. I don't feel like having a hard counter that can switch in on multiple specs eruptions is really a requirement on offense because offensive teams often keep hazards on the field as well as supply enough offensive pressure to where typhlosion has a tough time getting in. I don't really see where specs destroys stall because stall can afford to lose momentum in order to run a full counter like SpDef Grumpig, Zweilous, SpDef Regirock, or even Munchlax (Which is really fucking underrated rn) in order to beat typhlosion consistently. Balance is probably the playstyle that Typhlosion does the best against and even then, most balance teams are adapting by running stuff like regirock > rhydon, running mons like SD samurott and AV Mag which are excellent checks to typhlosion, and keeping up hazards which is a key towards beating typhlosion. Also while base 100 is still a very good speed tier, it is not as excellent as it once was. Many faster mons are becoming more popular like archeops, sneasel, and tauros which can all outspeed and beat typhlosion 1-on-1. tbh i think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that while typhlosion is one of the best mons in the tier and does shape the meta around itself, centralization is bound to happen around any meta in the 6th gen. With the number of checks that it has as well as the fact that in ORAS, wearing it down actually means that it loses a lot of it's scare factor makes typhlosion nowhere near bannable for me.
ok so when i look at typhlosion I see a mon that everyone needs to prepare for when building in NU, and tbh I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing. When I look at a lot of the ban arguments, I see a lot of stuff about how even the bulkiest of resists get worn down by continually switching in to eruption, but when I look at it practically, the same argument can be made against typhlosion in a sense. I think we need to look at this in a realistic sense in where Typhlosion isn't always going to be at 100% and firing off 150 BP Eruptions throughout the game. Typhlosion really can't switch into anything in order to keep its eruption at full power and even if it gets a free switch-in, one switch in to Stealth Rock takes away any benefit of Eruption over Fire Blast other than the improved accuracy. Priority and Hazards are both extremely common ways to wear typhlosion down and both are extremely common in NU. Also, for all the people that say that wearing down typhlosion isn't an argument due to the fact that blaze eruption is more powerful, I emplore you to look at last months usage stats where more than 77% of typhlosions were running Flash Fire. The introduction of flash fire to typhlosion was arguably the best thing that could have happened due to the fact that once you wear down typhlosion, you take away the reason that it's suspect worthy which is the power of specs eruption. That's also why I don't like all these arguments about charcoal wisp typhlosion and scarf typh because if you aren't running specs, you aren't taking advantage of its overwhelming wallbreaking power with specs eruption. You may be "luring" all the fire type checks but for what? You've already taken the power out of the strongest fire-type attacker in the tier that you would normally try and lure for. Camerupt does a much better job at luring Hariyama with it's wisp and physical sets. This is also a reason why I think that it's not exactly optimal that we are suspecting both of these mons at the same time. Without camerupt doing what it does, typhlosion is much easier to check throughout the use of traditional fire checks, without worrying about camerupt doing its thing and luring them out.
Another thing i'm gonna go into here is when people talk about how you basically need to run Hariyama or Mantine in order to reliably beat typhlosion which I don't believe to be the truth at all. Each playstyle has their own ways to beat typhlosion that aren't restricted to hariyama or mantine. Both hariyama and mantine are both pretty lazy answers and I feel that a lot of inexperienced builders (circa myself and many others at the end of xy) use it as a crutch when building and ask it to check far too many things. I don't feel like having a hard counter that can switch in on multiple specs eruptions is really a requirement on offense because offensive teams often keep hazards on the field as well as supply enough offensive pressure to where typhlosion has a tough time getting in. I don't really see where specs destroys stall because stall can afford to lose momentum in order to run a full counter like SpDef Grumpig, Zweilous, SpDef Regirock, or even Munchlax (Which is really fucking underrated rn) in order to beat typhlosion consistently. Balance is probably the playstyle that Typhlosion does the best against and even then, most balance teams are adapting by running stuff like regirock > rhydon, running mons like SD samurott and AV Mag which are excellent checks to typhlosion, and keeping up hazards which is a key towards beating typhlosion. Also while base 100 is still a very good speed tier, it is not as excellent as it once was. Many faster mons are becoming more popular like archeops, sneasel, and tauros which can all outspeed and beat typhlosion 1-on-1. tbh i think everyone needs to take a step back and realize that while typhlosion is one of the best mons in the tier and does shape the meta around itself, centralization is bound to happen around any meta in the 6th gen. With the number of checks that it has as well as the fact that in ORAS, wearing it down actually means that it loses a lot of it's scare factor makes typhlosion nowhere near bannable for me.
Can I also mention that running similar checks and counters to mons that are in the meta-game is healthy? It's just the fact we've had a fire type problem since NU alpha that it seems a bit stale. I can understand wanting change but you'll always need yama and mantine for fire checks, you'll need it for pyroar or magmortar or even the odd simisage. Just because these two are the main fire type answers does not mean that "tl;dr i don't want to see yama and mantine on every team" will happen if you choose to ban these pokemon. I think strictly that's an extremely poor reason to choose banning these pokemon.
I also want to say that almost all pokemon in this tier have ways around their main answers and checks! For typhlosion; If they use a charcoal wisp set, they aren't that fast or they aren't as powerful. They have ways around your checks but it means they lack in other areas which makes it less threatening! It was the specs set that made typhlosion so good in the first place and everyone is going coo-coo about the wisp set.
Before you jump on the ban bandwagon, think for a second.
I also want to say that almost all pokemon in this tier have ways around their main answers and checks! For typhlosion; If they use a charcoal wisp set, they aren't that fast or they aren't as powerful. They have ways around your checks but it means they lack in other areas which makes it less threatening! It was the specs set that made typhlosion so good in the first place and everyone is going coo-coo about the wisp set.
Before you jump on the ban bandwagon, think for a second.
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The Goomy
Whitest Mexican Alive
I'm gonna pile onto the no-ban argument with a more well constructed post than this one. :^]
Typhlosion: I really don't see the big issue with Typhlosion. Most of the argument's I've seen on here point to the wallbreaking potential of Typhlosion, which is pretty viable with a choice specs set. However, when people bring up the fact that there are switch ins to the specs set (Mantine, Hariyama, Flash Fire users, Rhydon, Lanturn, Grumpig, AV Magmortar, SpDef Frog, Regirock, Archeops, Zwei), the pro-ban argument is that now that Typhlosion with great wall breaking potential is now forgoing that trait to act as a lure, running the Charcoal-Wisp set. While both of these sets are viable, it seems as though people assume Typhlosion is at all times Scarfed, Specs, and the lure set with both Blaze and Flash Fire, which simply isn't the case. Regardless, each of these sets has counters in the metagame that can fit onto any team archetype, and perform roles outside of beating "fire spam".
Although it is a good Pokemon, the meta isn't being particularly kind to it right now:
1. Hazards always play a huge role in NU, they always will. Spikes and T-spikes and hazards in general are more important here than in any tier baring maybe ubers.
Typh cannot afford to switch in on pretty much anything in this meta, and it also cannot afford to switch in on hazards throughout the match, as it weakens it's eruption significantly, which is it's main selling point. Also, it's difficult to remove hazards right now as the premier defogger (mantine) is relatively easily pressured/loses to some of the best SR mons in the tier. Claydol is a good spinner, but it kills momentum, and offense has no issue with it since Mismagious exists.
2. The meta is trending towards speed. Tauros, Sneasel, and Archeops are all extremely popular right now because they're really good. For Typh to even outpace these things it require scarf, and Scarf Typh is weak as shit and shouldn't be used in general.
3. Priority is everywhere.
My least favorite argument for Typhs banning is when people say that its coverage options destroy it's "counters". For the most part this isn't true, and more importantly, assuming the Typhlosion user always predicts correctly while the person switching in on the Typh always predicts incorrectly is ludicrous. Good players scout, make switches that won't jeopardize their chances of winning if they predict the set wrong (which you can predict the set in team preview 90% of the time, it's not really an unpredictable mon, look at Mesprit if you want unpredictable), and good players have mons that will punish Typh for locking into a support move. and if they're not choiced you lose your wall breaking powers. So, it's a good mon, but it's not nearly as good as people make it out to be.
Camerupt: This thing is annoying as hell, does that make it ban-worthy? Definitely not. Camerupt actually provides NU with some pretty cool stuff, specifically a mon on balance that can set up rocks on Xatu. Camerupt hits like a truck, but it doesn't really get that many opportunities to switch in throughout the game due to its poor defensive typing, the fact that all hazards effect it, and that it's slow enough that it has to take 2 hits before it can attack. In addition, it has no recovery, so it gets worn down extremely quickly over the course of a game. Apparently Will-o-Wisp makes this mon broken (ban pyroar n_n). It's speed is what's killer about it. It really just...is slow as dirt. And you generally have to either sack something, or run dedicated voltturn to get it in safely. The only team archetype that makes me question Camerupt is TR, but TR is something you generally just have to play around anyway because everything hits so hard on it. If this goes, I can understand it though, since we've never really had a wallbreaker like this.
Don't ban Typh.
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Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
I think you jumped to conclusions before you said I (or whoever you referenced) jumped to conclusions... Pyroar, Magmortar, and Simisage won't just jump in usage if these two broken fire threats exit because all fire types aren't all the same and nearly as broken as Typh or Camerupt as you seem to imply.
I'm fine running Hariyama for Magmortar if need be..but to be honest I don't even need to spam hariyama to stop Magmortar like Typh and Rupt, hell I can slap on a Lanturn/ Musharna/ other soft check to take a Magmortar hit (which is both quite a bit weaker and slower than specs Typh). Simisear isn't going to jump up in usage a huge amount if these two leave either, and frankly I'm not scared of it at all. Pyroar is a threat yes, but does not warrant the same amount of attention as Typh and Rupt'.
This isn't a "if we ban these two, other mons will take their place and the checks will still be needed" type of case. Frankly, I don't care what type broken mons are or what potential replacements they may have.
The other fire threats may share the same type, but they don't put nearly the same pressure on teambuilding as the camel and fire-weasel.
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Not really that much of an NU guy but after getting around to reqs I guess I'll just post my thoughts on these two monsters.
Typhlosion: Im going to have to say ban on typh, however at first I was really leaning towards no ban with this monster. Throughout my reqs journey I would say about 70% of team i went up against had a hariyama on them and I thought to myself that it is not as big of an issue with yama aorund. Little did I know that a will-o charcoal set is extremely effective and can stop wood be checks like hariyama in its tracks while still retaining massive power with charcoal. The scarf set is an extremely dangerous revenge killer and can be really deadly on sun teams as my boi bigbadchut topped the suspect ladder with it. No doubt this thing is way too powerful for the tier...definitely BAN.
Camerupt: I'm sorta on the fence with camerupt. Yes it is extremely powerful and doesnt have many switch ins, and Yes it can run coverage moves for those switch ins, however that is simply just forcing a prediction which is not necessarily broken. Its speed can go against it as well as lots of mons can simply just threaten it out unless you are under trick room ofc but I'm not too sure if its a common style in NU. I would say camerupt is more of an annoyance then I would say broken and annoying does not mean broken. It is extremely powerful though and when played correctly is extremely dangerous. So for now I'd say NO BAN.
Typhlosion: Im going to have to say ban on typh, however at first I was really leaning towards no ban with this monster. Throughout my reqs journey I would say about 70% of team i went up against had a hariyama on them and I thought to myself that it is not as big of an issue with yama aorund. Little did I know that a will-o charcoal set is extremely effective and can stop wood be checks like hariyama in its tracks while still retaining massive power with charcoal. The scarf set is an extremely dangerous revenge killer and can be really deadly on sun teams as my boi bigbadchut topped the suspect ladder with it. No doubt this thing is way too powerful for the tier...definitely BAN.
Camerupt: I'm sorta on the fence with camerupt. Yes it is extremely powerful and doesnt have many switch ins, and Yes it can run coverage moves for those switch ins, however that is simply just forcing a prediction which is not necessarily broken. Its speed can go against it as well as lots of mons can simply just threaten it out unless you are under trick room ofc but I'm not too sure if its a common style in NU. I would say camerupt is more of an annoyance then I would say broken and annoying does not mean broken. It is extremely powerful though and when played correctly is extremely dangerous. So for now I'd say NO BAN.
My point wasn't "there will be pokemon to jump in the grave of typh" but you'll always need a fire check on your team no matter what situation. The whole argument about the charcoal wisp set is in my opinion not a good one at all since pyroar does it 100x better with base 106 speed, dual stabs, hp grass, will-o, can even run wild charge too and is preferred. If that set is a reason to ban typhlosion then ban pyroar too (i'm joking, don't ban either of them). Typhlosion's reason to be banned is the sheer power it has, which has a lot of checks as noted in previous posts above.
js typh can learn wild charge too. The main reason people use typh for that set over pyroar is because it doesn't get straight up rekt by hariyama even through burn like pyroar. People also expect wisp on typh less than they would on pyoar (wisp is kinda standard on non-choice pyroar now iirc) and pyroar also doesn't learn EQ and doesn't have flash fire or blaze. To say that this set is invalid because pyroar does it better is just false because typh does have things that pyroar doesn't that you failed to mention in your post, as well as the (somewhat) surprise factor. While you'll always need a fire check even if typh leaves, it doesn't have to be 1 of the like 3 mons that beat typh (mantine, hariyama, or prinplup) and the fire checks would become much more diverse, rather than seeing a mantine/yama on every team, like I very nearly did in my laddering experience. Fire checks check fire types obviously, but only mantine, hariyama, and I guess prinplup can check typhlosion reliably, and this is JUST the specs set. I understand what you're saying but here you're just seriously underestimating typhlosion as a pokemon. Personally, I think typhlosion's departure would make the tier a lot more diverse and remove a hugely centralizing, unhealthy presence from the metagame.
btw (not really directed at anyone because it hasn't been used yet in it's purest form) pls don't use the set of champions argument, it really takes a reasonable argument way too far and it's not really typh running all those sets at once, it's just the fact that it COULD be running those sets that makes it terrifying, so I am going to vote BAN.
Goomy straight up listed 10+ solid checks / counters and you claim there's only 3? yes there's a suprise factor, does it make it a good set and bannable set at that? no. And underestimating typhlosion as a pokemon? that's an extreme understatement. I realise it's a good pokemon, but just because it's a good pokemon ffs does not mean it needs to leave because you have to run checks to it! "tl;dr i don't want to see mantine and hariyama on every balance team".... Then use a different check ffs! Use an AV magmortar, use a lanturn! Don't sit here and complain about wanting it banned because you can't be bothered to change pokemon on a standard build of a team and use a different check or want it banned because you don't want to run any check for it at all!
People are so ban happy and want to change the tier rather than adapt to frankly a pokemon that is far from broken.
I actually just saw Goomy's post right now, I admit that I was too liberal with the word "check" in my post (I meant more towards the counter side of things), but let's go through all of these checks/counters, shall we? People keep forgetting that Typh can run a lot of different coverage moves in those last few slots and eliminate a lot of these "checks" without any external help.
Mantine: I recognized this one in my post, still loses to hp electric/wild charge and takes like 50% from specs eruption + rocks (it is the defogger, so it's natural to assume it's taking rocks dmg), no reliable recovery makes it unable to check it multiple times throughout a match.
Hariyama: i recognized this one as well, hates wisp and takes like 45% from specs extrasensory, no reliable recovery, but a solid check nonetheless.
Flash Fire: lose to EQ, but beat choice sets pretty well.
Rhydon: HP grass
Lanturn: takes a decent chunk from EQ, specs eruption, and specs hp grass, no reliable recovery, solid check.
Grumpig: takes very little from anything, no reliable recovery but I will concede it's a counter.
AV Magmortar: tbh I've always found this set very subpar in everything but checking typhlosion, checks choice i guess, loses to charcoal EQ. IMO this is an example of how the meta has conformed to typh's existence by putting an AV on magmortar, a pokemon with so many better things to do so that it can be a passable check to typh.
Spdef Seimitoed: hp grass
Regirock: barely takes 2 specs hp grasses, hit hard by focus blast (that's kinda rare but it exists). it's a counter I guess.
Archeops: needs to be defensive, large chance to just die to eruption after rocks (it runs defog so, like mantine, it's natural to assume it's taking rocks). From full it can just barely live 2 eruptions factoring in acrobatics.
Zweilous: restalk :/, focus blast (see notes to regirock).
So in the end, a lot of these pokemon who are supposed to check/counter all typh variants can't even do so, which speaks volumes about its strength. While I will concede that these pokemon can take eruptions, last time I checked, a pokemon needs to be able to tank more than 2 moves to be a counter. None of these pokemon have reliable recovery outside of archeops, which can barely even beat it 1v1 switching in without stealth rock. Now I will address the other points (Goomy's, because those seem to be the ones everyone is referencing).
1. Entry hazards. While it is true that entry hazard setters are quite common in NU (significantly more so than their removers), there are numerous ways to remove them/prevent them from going down. Mold Breaker CB sawk, for example, does not kill momentum (obviously) and can straight up kill many hazard setters before they can move. Claydol does not kill offensive momentum (at least in my experience) and 2hkoes rotom/mismagius with shadow ball or psyshock while they cannot ohko in return. Good defoggers include mantine, swanna, and archeops. And, of course, we have xatu, which requires prediction but can prevent SR from going down quite handily. Also blaze makes it hurt even more.
2. Speed. Chances are your team is not going to be 6 pokemon faster than typh, and fast mons are not a substitute for a typh check/counter. While it's true that this reduces the number of things that typhlosion can come in on and wreck things, most fast pokes are frail and lose to scarf/can't kill typh from full and get killed back. Most pokes in NU are slower than 100 speed, and the trend towards higher and higher speeds can be shown as an example of typh's centralization.
3. Priority. I wouldn't say priority is 'everywhere," as Goomy put it. I can name kangaskhan (yeah it can do a lot of dmg with fake out into sucker), a lot of sucker punch users (most do a decent chunk), scyther quick attack (weak), samurott (i concede this one), and sneasel (resisted). Priority can do a decent chunk, but you are also bringing typh closer to blaze range, where it does even more damage than from full.
4. Prediction. While a lot of people are assuming that typh predicts perfectly every time, when I look for counters to pokemon, I always assume they predict correctly; maybe I'm just paranoid, but it's better to be safe than sorry. Additionally, most of typhlosion's "counters" have no reliable recovery, so it'snot exactly losing anything by just spamming fire moves everytime it's out.
tl;dr: typh checks/counters are really shaky and don't have good recovery, metagame is centralizing around typh, I'm going ban and I'm not trying to force it on anyone, I am just stating my opinion and my reasoning behind it.
Mantine: I recognized this one in my post, still loses to hp electric/wild charge and takes like 50% from specs eruption + rocks (it is the defogger, so it's natural to assume it's taking rocks dmg), no reliable recovery makes it unable to check it multiple times throughout a match.
Hariyama: i recognized this one as well, hates wisp and takes like 45% from specs extrasensory, no reliable recovery, but a solid check nonetheless.
Flash Fire: lose to EQ, but beat choice sets pretty well.
Rhydon: HP grass
Lanturn: takes a decent chunk from EQ, specs eruption, and specs hp grass, no reliable recovery, solid check.
Grumpig: takes very little from anything, no reliable recovery but I will concede it's a counter.
AV Magmortar: tbh I've always found this set very subpar in everything but checking typhlosion, checks choice i guess, loses to charcoal EQ. IMO this is an example of how the meta has conformed to typh's existence by putting an AV on magmortar, a pokemon with so many better things to do so that it can be a passable check to typh.
Spdef Seimitoed: hp grass
Regirock: barely takes 2 specs hp grasses, hit hard by focus blast (that's kinda rare but it exists). it's a counter I guess.
Archeops: needs to be defensive, large chance to just die to eruption after rocks (it runs defog so, like mantine, it's natural to assume it's taking rocks). From full it can just barely live 2 eruptions factoring in acrobatics.
Zweilous: restalk :/, focus blast (see notes to regirock).
So in the end, a lot of these pokemon who are supposed to check/counter all typh variants can't even do so, which speaks volumes about its strength. While I will concede that these pokemon can take eruptions, last time I checked, a pokemon needs to be able to tank more than 2 moves to be a counter. None of these pokemon have reliable recovery outside of archeops, which can barely even beat it 1v1 switching in without stealth rock. Now I will address the other points (Goomy's, because those seem to be the ones everyone is referencing).
1. Entry hazards. While it is true that entry hazard setters are quite common in NU (significantly more so than their removers), there are numerous ways to remove them/prevent them from going down. Mold Breaker CB sawk, for example, does not kill momentum (obviously) and can straight up kill many hazard setters before they can move. Claydol does not kill offensive momentum (at least in my experience) and 2hkoes rotom/mismagius with shadow ball or psyshock while they cannot ohko in return. Good defoggers include mantine, swanna, and archeops. And, of course, we have xatu, which requires prediction but can prevent SR from going down quite handily. Also blaze makes it hurt even more.
2. Speed. Chances are your team is not going to be 6 pokemon faster than typh, and fast mons are not a substitute for a typh check/counter. While it's true that this reduces the number of things that typhlosion can come in on and wreck things, most fast pokes are frail and lose to scarf/can't kill typh from full and get killed back. Most pokes in NU are slower than 100 speed, and the trend towards higher and higher speeds can be shown as an example of typh's centralization.
3. Priority. I wouldn't say priority is 'everywhere," as Goomy put it. I can name kangaskhan (yeah it can do a lot of dmg with fake out into sucker), a lot of sucker punch users (most do a decent chunk), scyther quick attack (weak), samurott (i concede this one), and sneasel (resisted). Priority can do a decent chunk, but you are also bringing typh closer to blaze range, where it does even more damage than from full.
4. Prediction. While a lot of people are assuming that typh predicts perfectly every time, when I look for counters to pokemon, I always assume they predict correctly; maybe I'm just paranoid, but it's better to be safe than sorry. Additionally, most of typhlosion's "counters" have no reliable recovery, so it'snot exactly losing anything by just spamming fire moves everytime it's out.
tl;dr: typh checks/counters are really shaky and don't have good recovery, metagame is centralizing around typh, I'm going ban and I'm not trying to force it on anyone, I am just stating my opinion and my reasoning behind it.
The Goomy
Whitest Mexican Alive
AV is an excellent item on Magmortar. It allows it the opportunity to be a really reliable answer to things like Lilligant and Vileplume, as well as taking on things like Rotom 100% of the time. Calling AV Magmortar a product of Typhlosion (one of the many uses AV gives Magmortar) is inaccurate.
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Not really a NU player but since I got reqs I'll list my thoughts on these 2.
Typhlosion: When I was getting reqs, I found most teams had an AV Hariyama, I could definitely say it restricts teambuilding. As Goomy said, hazards are excellent in this tier, and Typh is very weak to them, and it's hard for it to switch in to anything due to its semi-frailness. It also has many switchins (Goomy listed them). Although it is a very good revenge killer on most teams, I'd have to say NO BAN on Typhlosion
Camerupt: To be honest I didn't see many of these when I was getting reqs. When it did show up, I found it very hard to switch in to it, mostly because of its amazing coverage and power. Yes, its speed hurts it a bit but on the switchins it can cripple almost all of the them, either by burning it (most common AV Hariyama by WoW) or just 2HKO'ing it. I'd have to say BAN on Mega Rupt.
Typhlosion: When I was getting reqs, I found most teams had an AV Hariyama, I could definitely say it restricts teambuilding. As Goomy said, hazards are excellent in this tier, and Typh is very weak to them, and it's hard for it to switch in to anything due to its semi-frailness. It also has many switchins (Goomy listed them). Although it is a very good revenge killer on most teams, I'd have to say NO BAN on Typhlosion
Camerupt: To be honest I didn't see many of these when I was getting reqs. When it did show up, I found it very hard to switch in to it, mostly because of its amazing coverage and power. Yes, its speed hurts it a bit but on the switchins it can cripple almost all of the them, either by burning it (most common AV Hariyama by WoW) or just 2HKO'ing it. I'd have to say BAN on Mega Rupt.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 109-130 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 36% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 113-133 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Idk, these aren't quite the counters I would be hoping for.
So after laddering in the suspect ladder and getting the reqs, I'd like to say that Mega Camerupt is too powerful in the metagame despite it's low speed and have a few checks, none of which works in the long term. Also it centralizes the meta to have an AV Hariyama, Magmortar or Mantine, which gets worn down eventually. Plus it's ability and 120 Atk stat let's it run mixed as well to beat a lot of mons if predicted right. I'm going to vote ban.
On the other hand, Typhlosion's Eruption is definitely powerful, having speed and the privilege of having items to boost its power or speed. But it gets locked into a move and have to be switched out meaning it will be worn down eventually. Therefore, I do not think it's much of a threat as Mega Camerupt. Therefore, I'm going to vote no to ban for Typhlosion
On the other hand, Typhlosion's Eruption is definitely powerful, having speed and the privilege of having items to boost its power or speed. But it gets locked into a move and have to be switched out meaning it will be worn down eventually. Therefore, I do not think it's much of a threat as Mega Camerupt. Therefore, I'm going to vote no to ban for Typhlosion
I got reqs a while ago, not the most knowledgeable about NU but I'll give my opinion based on my laddering experience.
Typhlosion-As someone who mainly plays RU and is only very experienced in that tier, I couldn't help but compare this suspect test to the test of Moltres in RU. In the case of Moltres, it was banned due to each of sets being too much for one playstyle to handle, and forcing all playstyles to run very sub optimal mons in order to beat it (i.e. AV Kabutops on offense). In comparison, it seems to me that Typhlosion is a powerful mon in the tier but not unhealthy for teambuilding, mainly due to the fact that every playstyle has a viable way of handling it. It appears that the focus is on the wallbreaking power of specs eruption/fire blast so I will mainly discuss that. Against offensive teams, it will likely get a kill if given a free turn. That being said, it's typing, lack of notable bulk, and weakness to hazards (which seem to be constant in nu), allow it few if any free chances to switch in. Furthermore, base 100 speed falls short of many of the premiere offensive mons of the tier as other users have mentioned, leaving it easily revenge killed and hard-pressed to attack at all. The scarf set is far less threatening as it lacks any way to keep momentum and will miss important KOs. On top of that, there are strong offensive checks that exist if needed, such as Hariyama, Toad, and Rhydon off the top of my head. Balanced and stall teams also have many viable ways of handling Typhlosion that are useful outside of that role. SpDef Regirock, Lanturn, and Mantine come to mind immediately as solid defensive checks and I've seen other good defensive stops posted here such as Grumpig and Zweilous on stall. Additionally, although it can run coverage moves to hit some of its counters, it won't be able to switch up moves while utilizing the power of specs, which forces it to switch out and continue to be worn down by hazards if it does not pick the correct coverage move for a defensive switch-in. For those reasons I'd say no ban on Typhlosion. Although I only have experience playing with offensive teams in NU, so I may be wrong about Typh not being too much for balance teams to handle.
I was going to talk about Camerupt as well, but I guess it will rise by usage. I also hardly saw it while laddering so my opinion may not be very well formed. Regardless, I'd think the camel is ban-worthy due to how much support it provides in one team slot. Rocks, massive wallbreaking, checks a good amount of things, will-o-wisp, etc. seems like too much for the tier.
Typhlosion-As someone who mainly plays RU and is only very experienced in that tier, I couldn't help but compare this suspect test to the test of Moltres in RU. In the case of Moltres, it was banned due to each of sets being too much for one playstyle to handle, and forcing all playstyles to run very sub optimal mons in order to beat it (i.e. AV Kabutops on offense). In comparison, it seems to me that Typhlosion is a powerful mon in the tier but not unhealthy for teambuilding, mainly due to the fact that every playstyle has a viable way of handling it. It appears that the focus is on the wallbreaking power of specs eruption/fire blast so I will mainly discuss that. Against offensive teams, it will likely get a kill if given a free turn. That being said, it's typing, lack of notable bulk, and weakness to hazards (which seem to be constant in nu), allow it few if any free chances to switch in. Furthermore, base 100 speed falls short of many of the premiere offensive mons of the tier as other users have mentioned, leaving it easily revenge killed and hard-pressed to attack at all. The scarf set is far less threatening as it lacks any way to keep momentum and will miss important KOs. On top of that, there are strong offensive checks that exist if needed, such as Hariyama, Toad, and Rhydon off the top of my head. Balanced and stall teams also have many viable ways of handling Typhlosion that are useful outside of that role. SpDef Regirock, Lanturn, and Mantine come to mind immediately as solid defensive checks and I've seen other good defensive stops posted here such as Grumpig and Zweilous on stall. Additionally, although it can run coverage moves to hit some of its counters, it won't be able to switch up moves while utilizing the power of specs, which forces it to switch out and continue to be worn down by hazards if it does not pick the correct coverage move for a defensive switch-in. For those reasons I'd say no ban on Typhlosion. Although I only have experience playing with offensive teams in NU, so I may be wrong about Typh not being too much for balance teams to handle.
I was going to talk about Camerupt as well, but I guess it will rise by usage. I also hardly saw it while laddering so my opinion may not be very well formed. Regardless, I'd think the camel is ban-worthy due to how much support it provides in one team slot. Rocks, massive wallbreaking, checks a good amount of things, will-o-wisp, etc. seems like too much for the tier.
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Just by noting possible ways of coverage it has to get around these checks doesn't mean you'll get the prediction right 100% of the time, if that's the case ban magmortar because it has a way of hitting all of its checks with t-bolt, hp grass, focus blast, fire blast, eq, will-o, tackle, pound and string shot. :x
The reason why typhlosion is so good is because it doesn't require thought to use! It can sit there and spam its extremely powerful fire stabs and almost get a kill every time. This is the reason for the suspect test, this is the reason why it is S rank, due to extremely powerful eruption and fire blasts. These pokemon are extremely good checks and counters because it can force typhlosion out and get up your own damage on typh. Not to mention you can fit multiple checks on your team for fire types because water, fire, rock are all common types in this tier and you will naturally have 2-3 fire checks at least on every team without thinking about it. Typh has counters, it also has a fuck tonne of checks.
The "Typhlosion's coverage doesn't always matter because it's Choice-locked" argument is wishy-washy at best because Specs Eruption alone 3HKOs pretty much the entire relevant tier, especially with Stealth Rock. You don't have to predict with Typhlosion. You just bring it in and click Eruption.
The other problem is that none of the good answers to Typhlosion have reliable recovery. You can't rely on something to check Typhlosion consistently throughout the match, and by the sheer virtue of this, more defensively inclined teams have pretty much gone away entirely, instead skewing more towards offensive balance and faster bulky offense with Pokemon like Scyther, Tauros, and Sneasel which naturally outspeed Typhlosion.
It's good that the tier has adapted in a way that it doesn't get automatically steamrolled by Typhlosion, but is this case of adapting enough to keep Typhlosion from being ban-worthy, or does Typhlosion warp the meta too much around itself? It's not like there are tons of faster Pokemon to choose from either, so teams start to become really similar among high-level players (think ium's latest RMT (Tauros, Uxie, Garbodor, Seismitoad, idr the rest but you get the idea), which has been pretty much the shell of NU teambuilding for a few weeks now).
The other problem is that none of the good answers to Typhlosion have reliable recovery. You can't rely on something to check Typhlosion consistently throughout the match, and by the sheer virtue of this, more defensively inclined teams have pretty much gone away entirely, instead skewing more towards offensive balance and faster bulky offense with Pokemon like Scyther, Tauros, and Sneasel which naturally outspeed Typhlosion.
It's good that the tier has adapted in a way that it doesn't get automatically steamrolled by Typhlosion, but is this case of adapting enough to keep Typhlosion from being ban-worthy, or does Typhlosion warp the meta too much around itself? It's not like there are tons of faster Pokemon to choose from either, so teams start to become really similar among high-level players (think ium's latest RMT (Tauros, Uxie, Garbodor, Seismitoad, idr the rest but you get the idea), which has been pretty much the shell of NU teambuilding for a few weeks now).
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