Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I don't agree suspecting Talonflame as a donor tbh. Its like suspecting FakeSpeed in STABmons (both uses powerful priorites). Abilities like Protean or Gale Wings may seem broken, but they are quite managable imo. Though I agree for putting Ability Clause to prevent people carrying two Proteans or two Gale Wings.

For Suicune in S rank, I agree. It fits into almost any kind of team, just like Primal Groudon in Ubers, though not as powerful. Its very convenient having Suicune in almost every of my team, including the Offensive ones (and it still do good).

Also I forgot if I have nominated before, but I'd like to nominate Mega Medicham to A rank. It is a very good poke to break Stall teams (at least from my experience) and Offensive teams just by spamming +2 Extremespeed.

 

[Tarontos]

An ability clause is not really reasonable as that departs from the core concept of the meta(that of donors)- if such a clause were to be it would be a donor clause, as an extension of the species clause.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

An ability clause is not really reasonable as that departs from the core concept of the meta(that of donors)- if such a clause were to be it would be a donor clause, as an extension of the species clause.

Yeah, but remember. There are four Protean users (Kecleon, Greninja evolutionary line) and three Gale Wings users (Talonflame and its evolutionary line). Even though the other Gale Wingers don't have Brave Bird, they still have Swords Dance and Acrobatics, which are viable replacement. So donor clause won't really stop the birdspam or Protean spam.

 

[Red Cat]

I am against any inheritance or ability clause because stacking threats with similar checks and counters to overwhelm those checks and counters is a legitimate strategy in any meta. Even with one of those clauses, people can still find ways to stack threats with similar checks and counters to beat them. An example is if your opponent uses Storm Drain Diance to stop both Gale Wings and Protean. You could run either Steel Wing on Landorus-T or Iron Tail on Azelf to kill Diance and pave the way for the other to sweep if your opponent lacks additional checks / counters. Stacking comes with the inherent risk that your Pokemon are beat by the same Pokemon, so your opponent can take advantage of that if he has multiple checks or counters to them.

If people think there needs to be an inheritance / ability clause because a team full of Protean users can destroy each other's checks and counters, then that means Protean itself should be banned because that means it has no universal checks / counters. If an ability is so good that it is worthwhile to use that ability on more than one Pokemon, then the ability itself is broken.

 

[Throbulator36]

I am against any inheritance or ability clause because stacking threats with similar checks and counters to overwhelm those checks and counters is a legitimate strategy in any meta. Even with one of those clauses, people can still find ways to stack threats with similar checks and counters to beat them. An example is if your opponent uses Storm Drain Diance to stop both Gale Wings and Protean. You could run either Steel Wing on Landorus-T or Iron Tail on Azelf to kill Diance and pave the way for the other to sweep if your opponent lacks additional checks / counters. Stacking comes with the inherent risk that your Pokemon are beat by the same Pokemon, so your opponent can take advantage of that if he has multiple checks or counters to them.

If people think there needs to be an inheritance / ability clause because a team full of Protean users can destroy each other's checks and counters, then that means Protean itself should be banned because that means it has no universal checks / counters. If an ability is so good that it is worthwhile to use that ability on more than one Pokemon, then the ability itself is broken.

So regenerator is broken in RU? Sometimes it just isn't effective enough to run 1 check to something and the easiest way is to have 2 checks that are similar.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I am against any inheritance or ability clause because stacking threats with similar checks and counters to overwhelm those checks and counters is a legitimate strategy in any meta. Even with one of those clauses, people can still find ways to stack threats with similar checks and counters to beat them. An example is if your opponent uses Storm Drain Diance to stop both Gale Wings and Protean. You could run either Steel Wing on Landorus-T or Iron Tail on Azelf to kill Diance and pave the way for the other to sweep if your opponent lacks additional checks / counters. Stacking comes with the inherent risk that your Pokemon are beat by the same Pokemon, so your opponent can take advantage of that if he has multiple checks or counters to them.

If people think there needs to be an inheritance / ability clause because a team full of Protean users can destroy each other's checks and counters, then that means Protean itself should be banned because that means it has no universal checks / counters. If an ability is so good that it is worthwhile to use that ability on more than one Pokemon, then the ability itself is broken.

Thing is, pretty much the opposite of what you are saying is true ._.
Ability Clause was implemented in Balanced Hackmons because on their own, individual abilities weren't broken. But if a top-tier ability such as Protean or Poison Heal were spammed on 6 Pokemon, they could overwhelm the checks to that ability and pave the way for a sweep. BUT the ability itself is NOT broken if it is limited to 1-2 users. THAT is the point of an ability Clause, as obviously if you run a team of 6 Protean you can afford to make a few of them lures for counters and bop them to pave the way for a teammate to sweep. Protean on its own is able to be checked or countered, and moves to lure in counters take up a moveslot that would be very valuable on a team limited to one Protean user. Therefore, because abilities can be spammed to simply overwhelm and overpower the opposition, I think the possibility of an ability Clause balancing out the metagame should be examined.

 

[Red Cat]

Thing is, pretty much the opposite of what you are saying is true ._.
Ability Clause was implemented in Balanced Hackmons because on their own, individual abilities weren't broken. But if a top-tier ability such as Protean or Poison Heal were spammed on 6 Pokemon, they could overwhelm the checks to that ability and pave the way for a sweep. BUT the ability itself is NOT broken if it is limited to 1-2 users. THAT is the point of an ability Clause, as obviously if you run a team of 6 Protean you can afford to make a few of them lures for counters and bop them to pave the way for a teammate to sweep. Protean on its own is able to be checked or countered, and moves to lure in counters take up a moveslot that would be very valuable on a team limited to one Protean user. Therefore, because abilities can be spammed to simply overwhelm and overpower the opposition, I think the possibility of an ability Clause balancing out the metagame should be examined.

This isn't BH. There are key differences between BH and Inheritance. First, there isn't stuff like Imposter Chansey running around in Inheritance, so gimmick teams like 6 Imposter Chanseys are not possible in Inheritance. Second, in Inheritance you don't get to choose just any moves you want to go with an ability, so your ability to create teams with the same abilities which destroy each other's counters is greatly reduced.

With the Protean example, if you have a check / counter for every Protean set on your team, then it doesn't matter if your opponent runs 6 Protean users on their team because you have every one of them checked / countered, so you should win. If you don't have a check or counter for a specific Protean set, then your opponent doesn't need a bunch of Protean sets on his team, he just needs the one that you are weak to. Any Protean set is a lure to beat checks / counters for other Protean sets; that is what makes Protean such a powerful ability. There is no difference between using Protean to lure in an kill a Pokemon to set up a sweep for another Protean user or for Gale Wings Landorus-T, or any sweeper with another ability which can take advantage of one of its counters removed. We should determine if Protean itself is broken or not and not waste our time with in-between measures which cause collateral damage by limiting viable and legitimate strategies.

Inheritance is its own meta. It is not OU, BH, AAA, or STABmons. We should not base the banlist for this meta off of other metas unless it is something universal to most metas (Swagger, OHKO moves, Evasion, etc.).

 

[motherlove]

With the Protean example, if you have a check / counter for every Protean set on your team, then it doesn't matter if your opponent runs 6 Protean users on their team because you have every one of them checked / countered, so you should win..

According to smogon, Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Ok, let's say my check for physical protean is an adaptability rhyperior. I get a free switch on my opponent's protean landorus.
252+ Atk Protean Landorus-T Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 412-486 (129.1 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, rhyperior is an effective check against physical protean. Did it's job.
And now my opponent brings in another physical protean. And my check is half dead... I lost.

I simplified that a little. But just to say, it's quite easy to overwhelm one or two checks if you have 6 of the same stuff. That doesn't mean one alone would have swept me.


On another note, even if this set was probably mentioned before.

Mum's dildo (Haxorus) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes (I mean, look how cool it is)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break / roost

"omg suicune is unbreakable"
-everybody

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%)

Seriously this thing is amazing.
You can also use some weird subroost swords dance shenanigans but that's too complex for me.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

You don't want to run checks/counters to common threats? This isn't your tier. If you don't want to run a keldeo check on your OU team, thats your fault, but don't blame it on us that oh its broken just because you have to run checks/counters to it. Thats not an argument, thats frustration.

TBH I am not against a gale wings suspect, but this argument will get shot down cold when it comes to voting.


This was covered by TI, the point is that you inherit another mons movesets, and arbitrarily eliminating illegalities defeats the purpose of the meta. TBH I don't agree with it but its what we have been given.

I think that we need an odd number of council members. These 3v3 no bans can get UGLY in a hurry, and we've seen it before (Ghoul King says hi). Adding one or subtracting one makes sense atm, and while 7 seems like a big number, there is a ton of pressure on this council and the playerbase is gargantuan.

Uhh...I never ran dual talon. I had one team way back in the day that abused archeops and lant with different sets, but I haven't ran a team with dual birds since my birdspam team back in the very, VERY beginning. I am not saying its not good, however, its that I don't use it.


I "bashed" you for making the snide comment "It has to go." I proceeded to bash Kasumi in the same way for saying "its just bullshit." Either way, don't bring me into this please.

Cresselia has a lot more roles than unaware, and tbh I am not seeing a lot of unaware nowadays.


I am holding off on suicune for S rank, but Cress' unreal versatility may warrant it a spot in A when I discuss it with some of the others. It can run any defensive set in existence effectively. Besides fur coat. Stop using fur coat.

Ghoul King I cannot figure out why it doesnt say inheriting from sable is banned either, but it should since people have to track down the thread instead.

I wasn't trying to bring you in, you weren't the only one who mentioned it, sorry. Cresselia's only role on my team is Unaware and Clecric

 

[Adrian Marin]

Thing is, pretty much the opposite of what you are saying is true ._.
Ability Clause was implemented in Balanced Hackmons because on their own, individual abilities weren't broken. But if a top-tier ability such as Protean or Poison Heal were spammed on 6 Pokemon, they could overwhelm the checks to that ability and pave the way for a sweep. BUT the ability itself is NOT broken if it is limited to 1-2 users. THAT is the point of an ability Clause, as obviously if you run a team of 6 Protean you can afford to make a few of them lures for counters and bop them to pave the way for a teammate to sweep. Protean on its own is able to be checked or countered, and moves to lure in counters take up a moveslot that would be very valuable on a team limited to one Protean user. Therefore, because abilities can be spammed to simply overwhelm and overpower the opposition, I think the possibility of an ability Clause balancing out the metagame should be examined.

I have to disagree. Numerous abilities in BH are quite broken, honestly. The main reason why BH is different is because it will always follow its precedent. Due to the BH metagame's strict precedent, the ability clause was the only option. In Inheritance, I don't believe it's necessary to compromise stability for a rule that barely even affects overcentralising aspects in the metagame. If a donor is agreed to be unhealthy, it should be given a fair suspect. In most cases, the ability clause is simply a half measure in my opinion; however, if people start to complain about things such as Gale Wings spam destroying certain matchups, I believe an ability clause may be appropriate.

 

[Throbulator36]

According to smogon, Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Ok, let's say my check for physical protean is an adaptability rhyperior. I get a free switch on my opponent's protean landorus.
252+ Atk Protean Landorus-T Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 412-486 (129.1 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, rhyperior is an effective check against physical protean. Did it's job.
And now my opponent brings in another physical protean. And my check is half dead... I lost.

I simplified that a little. But just to say, it's quite easy to overwhelm one or two checks if you have 6 of the same stuff. That doesn't mean one alone would have swept me.


On another note, even if this set was probably mentioned before.

Mum's dildo (Haxorus) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes (I mean, look how cool it is)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break / roost

"omg suicune is unbreakable"
-everybody

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%)

Seriously this thing is amazing.
You can also use some weird subroost swords dance shenanigans but that's too complex for me.

Should be running DDance

 

[imas]

Should be running DDance

No, band lets it beat unaware users.

 

[ALXFrizzy]

I have been using the set below as a late game cleaner (or an early game sleep inducer if needed):

(Inherits from Darkrai)
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Spacial Rend
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot

I think this is superior to the Clawitzer set, because although it is walled by fairies, it is capable of eliminating a foe's poke for the rest of the match with Dark Void and then setting up with Nasty Plot. His decent bulk combined with leftovers and the time the foe is sleeping gives it good longevity. Since a majority of the metagame is physically defensive in nature, Hydreigon can rip apart many common pokes. Also his mediocre speed is usually not a problem because speed tiers seem to be less important to Inheritance (with things like Altaria and Landorus-T being outsped before a boost).

It really does have problems with fairies, but Dark Void and Nasty Plot are really hard to pass up. Anybody got any similar ideas that aren't walled by fairies? Should I replace Dark Pulse or Spacial Rend?

 

[I like donkeys]

Hey guys how do you feel about the Inheritance Viability Rankings receiving it's own thread? Inheritance is proving to be an incredibly popular, but relatively new metagame, so I feel a new page dedicated to this would be a great way to aid new and old players alike :3
Plus if the viability rankings has it's own page the discussion will remain uninterrupted (unlike if it were discussed here) and could cover more things.

 

[Snaquaza]

Hey guys how do you feel about the Inheritance Viability Rankings receiving it's own thread? Inheritance is proving to be an incredibly popular, but relatively new metagame, so I feel a new page dedicated to this would be a great way to aid new and old players alike :3
Plus if the viability rankings has it's own page the discussion will remain uninterrupted (unlike if it were discussed here) and could cover more things.

I've brought this up the Eevee General and I think xJownage did the same. He said only permanent ladders could get a separate viability ranking at this point to prevent the forum from cluttering up.

 

[I like donkeys]

I've brought this up the Eevee General and I think xJownage did the same. He said only permanent ladders could get a separate viability ranking at this point to prevent the forum from cluttering up.

Oh, i didn't know that, thanks for clearing that up.

EDIT: To be fair tho Inheritance seems like it's gonna become a permanent ladder thanks to it's popularity :3

 

[Mr155551]

Oh, i didn't know that, thanks for clearing that up.

EDIT: To be fair tho Inheritance seems like it's gonna become a permanent ladder thanks to it's popularity :3

On that it seems like CH didn't get a permenant ladder and it's really famous

 

[Snaquaza]

On that it seems like CH didn't get a permenant ladder and it's really famous

Classic Hackmons ladder was removed because of other reasons than its activity. I also don't think it'll be good to derail this thread with an everlasting, yet pointless discussion. Eventually it's up to The Immortal what gets a permanent ladder and what's not, and I don't want to interfere with it.

How do you guys think the Arena Trap changed the metagame? Did it get better or worse? Also does anyone else think Gyarados-Mega is too awesome?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Classic Hackmons ladder was removed because of other reasons than its activity. I also don't think it'll be good to derail this thread with an everlasting, yet pointless discussion. Eventually it's up to The Immortal what gets a permanent ladder and what's not, and I don't want to interfere with it.

How do you guys think the Arena Trap changed the metagame? Did it get better or worse? Also does anyone else think Gyarados-Mega is too awesome?

Arena trap ban was healthy, so will the gothitelle ban (crossing my fingers). Stall still has troubles and more people are bringing clever new ways to handle it. Such as Mega Gyarados with Sub Shell smash just ruins stall, especially with the Knock off set.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Classic Hackmons ladder was removed because of other reasons than its activity. I also don't think it'll be good to derail this thread with an everlasting, yet pointless discussion. Eventually it's up to The Immortal what gets a permanent ladder and what's not, and I don't want to interfere with it.

How do you guys think the Arena Trap changed the metagame? Did it get better or worse? Also does anyone else think Gyarados-Mega is too awesome?

At least its less annoying considering there is no random Chansey or Blissey killing my poke in one hit (always hate both of them).

 

[Akumeoy]

Hey guys how do you feel about the Inheritance Viability Rankings receiving it's own thread? Inheritance is proving to be an incredibly popular, but relatively new metagame, so I feel a new page dedicated to this would be a great way to aid new and old players alike :3
Plus if the viability rankings has it's own page the discussion will remain uninterrupted (unlike if it were discussed here) and could cover more things.

Absolutely. Would allow for much more focused discussion. Of course, I have no say over it, but w/e.

I have been using the set below as a late game cleaner (or an early game sleep inducer if needed):

(Inherits from Darkrai)
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Spacial Rend
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot

I think this is superior to the Clawitzer set, because although it is walled by fairies, it is capable of eliminating a foe's poke for the rest of the match with Dark Void and then setting up with Nasty Plot. His decent bulk combined with leftovers and the time the foe is sleeping gives it good longevity. Since a majority of the metagame is physically defensive in nature, Hydreigon can rip apart many common pokes. Also his mediocre speed is usually not a problem because speed tiers seem to be less important to Inheritance (with things like Altaria and Landorus-T being outsped before a boost).

It really does have problems with fairies, but Dark Void and Nasty Plot are really hard to pass up. Anybody got any similar ideas that aren't walled by fairies? Should I replace Dark Pulse or Spacial Rend?

Honestly? Greninja is probably your best bet for a Nasty Plot set from Darkrai. It works for Darkrai because Darkrai is sanic fast, and I think against offense, Hydreigon can't rely on that -- I mean, you're the one who's played it, but I'm going off of my impression.

Your main options, that I see, are Sludge Bomb, Taunt, Substitute, Thunder Wave, and Wonder Room over Nasty Plot.

• Sludge Bomb covers fairies. Dark+Dragon+Poison is solid coverage, especially with STAB on the first two.
• Taunt gives you extra turns against walls.
• Substitute can give you free turns against things that try to revenge kill you or outspeed/priority you, or at least a failsafe if your opponent gets a one-turn sleep. I know that I've lost plenty of games to Substitute.
• Thunder Wave relies on the opponent not staying in, but it does let you outspeed them and hit them with the appropriate move.
• Wonder Room lets you beat most special walls straight-up, but you get walled by physical walls. Basically you'd be able to pick your poison based on the team type.

But if you're keen on Nasty Plot, then I think your set's at just about its best.

----

Anyways, I was trying to think of a semi-reliable way to plow through Unaware and special walls and, uh, I got this abomination:

Raising Awareness (Roserade) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Soak
- Energy Ball

Inheriting from Octillery, Roserade is chosen for having one of the highest Special Attack stats among Grass-types, its ability to switch in on Toxic, and moderate Speed. The HP EVs prevent its Substitute from being broken by Goodra's STAB Dragon Tail. The rest go in to Speed to outspeed uninvested mid-speed walls and such.

Effectively, Sniper+Focus Energy+Scope Lens is a 2.25x modifier that ignores Unaware, and Soak turns any possible type resistance into a 2x weakness, also ignoring Unaware. With a turn of setup on each opponent, it's at effectively +6, and while they can switch out, they're subjected to entry hazards and chip damage from stray Energy Balls.

252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 363-432 (56.5 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra on a critical hit: 261-309 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia on a critical hit: 426-504 (95.9 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

^^ All of these after a Soak. It's stopped by Magic Bounce, mind you, but Magic Bouncers don't have Unaware.

Basically, I think any sufficiently passive stall team will fall to this, provided it's given proper support. But it's shit against anything that isn't passive stall, so whatever. It was a fun thought exercise, but don't run it.

 

[I like donkeys]

Anyways, I was trying to think of a semi-reliable way to plow through Unaware and special walls and, uh, I got this abomination:

Raising Awareness (Roserade) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Soak
- Energy Ball

Inheriting from Octillery, Roserade is chosen for having one of the highest Special Attack stats among Grass-types, its ability to switch in on Toxic, and moderate Speed. The HP EVs prevent its Substitute from being broken by Goodra's STAB Dragon Tail. The rest go in to Speed to outspeed uninvested mid-speed walls and such.

Effectively, Sniper+Focus Energy+Scope Lens is a 2.25x modifier that ignores Unaware, and Soak turns any possible type resistance into a 2x weakness, also ignoring Unaware. With a turn of setup on each opponent, it's at effectively +6, and while they can switch out, they're subjected to entry hazards and chip damage from stray Energy Balls.

252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 363-432 (56.5 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra on a critical hit: 261-309 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia on a critical hit: 426-504 (95.9 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

^^ All of these after a Soak. It's stopped by Magic Bounce, mind you, but Magic Bouncers don't have Unaware.

Basically, I think any sufficiently passive stall team will fall to this, provided it's given proper support. But it's shit against anything that isn't passive stall, so whatever. It was a fun thought exercise, but don't run it.

that set is honestly amazing, making a team right now and i dont care what anyone says :3

How do you guys think the Arena Trap changed the metagame? Did it get better or worse? Also does anyone else think Gyarados-Mega is too awesome?

Arena Trap was never a problem for me so I don't personally feel the meta is any different, but I'm still glad it's gone because it is uncompetitive and has probably caused problems for other players. I think Mega Gyarados might be a little op considering it crushes both offense and stall (if it manages to set up).

 

[Ghoul King]

I have been using the set below as a late game cleaner (or an early game sleep inducer if needed):

(Inherits from Darkrai)
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Spacial Rend
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot

I think this is superior to the Clawitzer set, because although it is walled by fairies, it is capable of eliminating a foe's poke for the rest of the match with Dark Void and then setting up with Nasty Plot. His decent bulk combined with leftovers and the time the foe is sleeping gives it good longevity. Since a majority of the metagame is physically defensive in nature, Hydreigon can rip apart many common pokes. Also his mediocre speed is usually not a problem because speed tiers seem to be less important to Inheritance (with things like Altaria and Landorus-T being outsped before a boost).

It really does have problems with fairies, but Dark Void and Nasty Plot are really hard to pass up. Anybody got any similar ideas that aren't walled by fairies? Should I replace Dark Pulse or Spacial Rend?

Darkrai gets Sludge Bomb, so you could potentially replaced Spacial Rend with that to get mostly-reliable anti-Fairy coverage. It's not like anyone runs Klefki or Mawile, which would be the absolute worst-case scenario. More concerning is that it leaves you walled by Lucario (Sees actual use), but it walls you with Dark/Dragon offense too so whatever, and Bisharp. (Again, also walls Dark/Dragon, and is very fragile anyway) Plus you can just put them to Sleep if they've only got one such on the team.

In any event I'd sooner replace Spacial Rend than Dark Pulse. Spacial Rend can miss, has extremely low PP, and its increased critical hit ratio isn't as useful an effect as Dark Pulse's Flinch effect, which occurs more often anyway. Dragon's only value is that it's poorly resisted, but Dark is also poorly resisted, has nothing immune to it, and is also STAB. (And the fact that Steel doesn't resist it is excellent where Dragon being resisted by Steel will often crop up on teams, since Steel is so good as a defensive type) The main thing Spacial Rend has over Dark Pulse is an admittedly solid 25% increase in damage. (Almost a Life Orb)

I've brought this up the Eevee General and I think xJownage did the same. He said only permanent ladders could get a separate viability ranking at this point to prevent the forum from cluttering up.

I'm kind of surprised there's no "Viability Ranking" sub-forum to clean things up, nor a "permanent ladder" sub-forum, honestly. Kind of weird that PU got a sub-forum before anything like that.

How do you guys think the Arena Trap changed the metagame? Did it get better or worse? Also does anyone else think Gyarados-Mega is too awesome?

Arena Trap was cancer and I'm glad to see it gone.

I haven't personally fought Mega Gyarados as yet (Well, one time, but it was a completely different, much-less-threatening build), but it looks very dangerous and able to take on nearly anything if it gets its setup in, so I dunno. Having seen some replays, I am seeing the very alarming point that it lets you get a Shell Smash Mold Breaker out, which is otherwise impossible and very good.

Anyways, I was trying to think of a semi-reliable way to plow through Unaware and special walls and, uh, I got this abomination:

Raising Awareness (Roserade) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Soak
- Energy Ball

Inheriting from Octillery, Roserade is chosen for having one of the highest Special Attack stats among Grass-types, its ability to switch in on Toxic, and moderate Speed. The HP EVs prevent its Substitute from being broken by Goodra's STAB Dragon Tail. The rest go in to Speed to outspeed uninvested mid-speed walls and such.

Effectively, Sniper+Focus Energy+Scope Lens is a 2.25x modifier that ignores Unaware, and Soak turns any possible type resistance into a 2x weakness, also ignoring Unaware. With a turn of setup on each opponent, it's at effectively +6, and while they can switch out, they're subjected to entry hazards and chip damage from stray Energy Balls.

252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 363-432 (56.5 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra on a critical hit: 261-309 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia on a critical hit: 426-504 (95.9 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

^^ All of these after a Soak. It's stopped by Magic Bounce, mind you, but Magic Bouncers don't have Unaware.

Basically, I think any sufficiently passive stall team will fall to this, provided it's given proper support. But it's shit against anything that isn't passive stall, so whatever. It was a fun thought exercise, but don't run it.

That's quite nifty and out-of-the-box.

---

Having fought a team using Chatter to good effect, I'm wondering if Chatter needs to be revisited as a possible ban. Yes, Chatot has a limited movepool and garbage Abilities. But actually going up against it made be very aware that Chatter itself kind of destroys the normal concept of what constitutes a check or a counter -anything lacking Own Tempo (Which is not normally run and is useless if the opponent isn't trying to Confuse you) cannot actually switch in and win with a high degree of certainty, because one "hurts itself in its confusion" event can give the Chatterer time to get up a Substitute, which then gives it more time to Chatter/Nasty Plot/whatever in peace.

I've seen other people describe Confusion-based effects (Chatter, Swagger) as only giving you a 50% shot at winning, but this description tends to ignore the fat that in actuality there are ways to manipulate the functional odds in your favor -Confuse the opponent, put up a Substitute, and then either they break it or they don't. If they don't, continue on your merry way until they break it, at which point you put it back up again and wait for them punch their own face again. This means abusing Chatter to give yourself time to setup -or just to try to break through an Unaware wall through Confusion hax- is not a 50/50 thing, because the Chatterer just arranges to minimize the consequences of the dice going against them and maximize the benefits of the dice being on their side. That's not a 50/50.

And in Chatter's case, you can't simply switch-spam to burn through PP, like you can with Confuse Ray/Supersonic/Swagger/etc. If you do that, they still get in chipping damage -and Chatter's BP is OK and its PP solid, so unless you're, like, a team of Poison Healers or something, this will get in damage, not even getting into the fact that they can put up the Substitute somewhere in there and then hit you with Chatter when you stay in.

And unlike in, say, Tier Shift, the Pokemon abusing Chatter can have... you know, good stats. And a good typing. It's not a narrowly focused luck-based mission that falls apart the instant anything pokes the Chatterer, because the Chatterer can be something bulky like Togekiss.

Also, it's uncompetitive. As always.

I don't think it's as urgent as other things have been (hooray for Arena Trap being banned!), but I wanted to bring it up, because I actually agreed with the original logic of not banning Chatter but having seen it in action it's... really really bull.

 

[Red Cat]

Having fought a team using Chatter to good effect, I'm wondering if Chatter needs to be revisited as a possible ban. Yes, Chatot has a limited movepool and garbage Abilities. But actually going up against it made be very aware that Chatter itself kind of destroys the normal concept of what constitutes a check or a counter -anything lacking Own Tempo (Which is not normally run and is useless if the opponent isn't trying to Confuse you) cannot actually switch in and win with a high degree of certainty, because one "hurts itself in its confusion" event can give the Chatterer time to get up a Substitute, which then gives it more time to Chatter/Nasty Plot/whatever in peace.

I've seen other people describe Confusion-based effects (Chatter, Swagger) as only giving you a 50% shot at winning, but this description tends to ignore the fat that in actuality there are ways to manipulate the functional odds in your favor -Confuse the opponent, put up a Substitute, and then either they break it or they don't. If they don't, continue on your merry way until they break it, at which point you put it back up again and wait for them punch their own face again. This means abusing Chatter to give yourself time to setup -or just to try to break through an Unaware wall through Confusion hax- is not a 50/50 thing, because the Chatterer just arranges to minimize the consequences of the dice going against them and maximize the benefits of the dice being on their side. That's not a 50/50.

And in Chatter's case, you can't simply switch-spam to burn through PP, like you can with Confuse Ray/Supersonic/Swagger/etc. If you do that, they still get in chipping damage -and Chatter's BP is OK and its PP solid, so unless you're, like, a team of Poison Healers or something, this will get in damage, not even getting into the fact that they can put up the Substitute somewhere in there and then hit you with Chatter when you stay in.

And unlike in, say, Tier Shift, the Pokemon abusing Chatter can have... you know, good stats. And a good typing. It's not a narrowly focused luck-based mission that falls apart the instant anything pokes the Chatterer, because the Chatterer can be something bulky like Togekiss.

Also, it's uncompetitive. As always.

I don't think it's as urgent as other things have been (hooray for Arena Trap being banned!), but I wanted to bring it up, because I actually agreed with the original logic of not banning Chatter but having seen it in action it's... really really bull.

lol at people using Chatter. Here's what the pros use:

Breast Cancer (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Night Shade

Prostate Cancer (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Foul Play

Colon Cancer (Regirock) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Confuse Ray
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Foul Play

You can thank me if the ladder becomes a total shitfest for the next few days.

 

[Dratios]

So I was messing around and came up with this set (It's probably been done before but it might bring up some interesting discussion)

Mega Camerupt (Heatran) @ Air Balloon / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Timid Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Flash Cannon
-Ancient Power

This is my bog-standard offensive Tran set, but now with a lot more power.