ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

[Skankovich]

I think Pangoro's niche is its amazing STABs and coverage that make it harder to switch into compared to Hera. Like, fairy types can always stomach any unboosted hera hit and are thus an easy switch, but you don't have that with goro and as soon as it comes in it's just a case of having to play around its coverage until you're hopefully in a situation where you can kill it or force it out (It helps that drain punch gives it longevity for this too).

That said, the tradeoff is that it's far harder to actually bring in in the first place compared to Hera and it's advantages are sort of slim for that compromise. I think B is as high as it should go since hera is overall more splashable and similar.

Also Umbreon at B is a travesty but I'll type that rant up later.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Goro can run through a bunch of stall teams. As dodmen so graciously showed me awhile ago with my Shedinja team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-192043977

lol well it goes through your stall team! It had super effective hits on everything and your tentacruel didnt feel like scalding. Still looks fun and powerful. Defininately has some niches and its been banned from a tier before this.

Wow I looked around on serebii and this thing has a great move pool and 2 abilities that it can be useful. Its attack is great and you can run enough speed to get florges and have some left over for hp. It has knock off and a powerful hammer arm that is boosted by iron fist. If you dont like speed drop then you can run d punch. Hammer arm would be cool with a band set. Its also got elemental punches to get boosted from. This could be a great wall breaker! The down side is that it cant take hits too well even with its descent natural bulk because a lot of things hit Pangoro for super effective damage. Im going to build a team around it and see if it works and if the meta favors it then I'll add more insight.

 

[Magis4Life]

What do you do with pangoro? The only time I see it is on OTR. Is it viable outside that. I know coverage is great but is it too slow to do anything?

Pangoro, like other rather slow wallbreakers, benefits from voltturn teams especially as Pangoro appreciates being brought in safely. It especially has the niche of being a fighting type with arguably better dual offensive STAB then Heracross while carrying gunk shot coverage against fairies. It can smash stall teams with its cb and sd+ lum sets and can carry parting shot to gain further momentum for the team(though Heracross outclasses it otherwise as a wallbreaker with solid offensive STAB and better defensive typing along with much better speed and better ability in guts, though iron fist boosted drain punch is cool). The main issue I see with Pangoro is how matchup reliant it is but with the usage transition and the increase of certain mons like doublade, Pangoro certainly can wreck given the support against more offensive teams. I've used Pangoro with relative success, though that was a while ago. With the increase of gligar, I wonder how viable of a move ice punch is.

 

[Lilligant for OU]

What do you do with pangoro? The only time I see it is on OTR. Is it viable outside that. I know coverage is great but is it too slow to do anything?

Bandgoro eviscerates walls, I'm surprised you don't know that

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Pangoro really only finds a good niche in stall breaking because its so strong and has perfect coverage against stall. As you have probably noticed stall usually is half made up of normal, psychic, or fairy type mons as many of mons with these types find great places on stall such as granbull, blissey, reun, cress, etc. this means goro usually runs absolute train through stall imho it deserves the raise

 

[jamashawalker]

I like to think of Pangoro as a nerfed Crawdaunt. Really hard to get in, but once it gets in and threatens something, you're getting a free KO. or just spam Knock off with no consequences. Sadly no aqua jet against offensive teams means it can only threaten something slower. I'd arguably say that Pangoro is a better matchup vs stall than heracross. Mainly because it can spam STAB knock off and can't be stopped by Fairies. Aka looking at it as a Dark type first who has fighting and poison for coverage. Looking at the list it is one of the only 3 physical dark types we have in the tier. Honchkrow & Sharpedo. Both who play completely different than Pangoro

Personally I think raising it from B- --> B would be good for it. I can see someone really finding a good use for Pangoro too. I dont think it reached its full potential yet.


EDIT: warzoid corrected me. We have 5 physical dark types.

 

[warzoid]

Looking at the list it is one of the only 3 physical dark types we have in the tier. Honchkrow & Sharpedo. Both who play completely different than Pangoro

Krookodile? Mega Absol?

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Honestly I feel the real thing to talk about with goro is how outclassed it is by SD hera, not completely but should it move up when there is such a splashable mon that outclasses it? I find Pangoro has a niche over herra in dark STAB so I agree with it moving up but it is a solid counter argument

 

[DaSpoofy]

Honestly I feel the real thing to talk about with goro is how outclassed it is by SD hera, not completely but should it move up when there is such a splashable mon that outclasses it? I find Pangoro has a niche over herra in dark STAB so I agree with it moving up but it is a solid counter argument

The stab knock off is not the only difference but the ability to survive as well. Drain Punch is great when breaking through walls as they are able to get chip damage off with scald or seimic* toss. Sword Dance Hera should be running flame orb for facade.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-225836635 Here's a high ladder battle with a well known player that showcases Goro a bit. Basically this man had no safe switches when he didnt want his slowking to die. It forces my opponent to take some risky switches while I have lum and natural bulk to take these risks and stay alive with d punch to keep my goro healthy for another round.

 

[Meru]

We discussed it in #xyuu that Cresselia is ranked way too high right now. It has speed, bulk, coverage options, and unpredictability over Reuniclus for sure but Reuniclus has Focus Blast which is huge for breaking Steel-types, and its immunity to Stealth Rock as well as damaging status lets it play a much more potent role in this meta.

The consensus was:

A- for Cresselia
A for Reuniclus

EDIT: I'm chill with the community's compromise of Cresselia for A

 

[IronBullet]

Yep, not to mention Reuniclus has Recover while Cress only gets shitty Moonlight.

 

[r0ady]

Pidgeot for s rank

Alright there is absolutely zero reason for this not to be s rank because it has TWO FUCKING COUNTERS and the argument that one of those counters is s rank and very common is complete. and total. bullshit. Suicune counters tf out of aero and you dont see anyone saying it should be A rank (oh boohoo you can break through with like a 2% chance after hone claws stone edge good fckn luck getting that)
Quite possibly the most stupid and ignorant argument ive heard for not having it at s is that you cant use aero if you use pidg. WTF how is that even a conceivable argument have you even used this borderline BROKEN mon. I've never had the feeling of being in with a mon, against a mon thats a supposed "counter," clicking hurricane and haxing it down. (except jirachi)

 

[YABO]

We discussed it in #xyuu that Cresselia is ranked way too high right now. It has speed, bulk, coverage options, and unpredictability over Reuniclus for sure but Reuniclus has Focus Blast which is huge for breaking Steel-types, and its immunity to Stealth Rock as well as damaging status lets it play a much more potent role in this meta.

The consensus was:

A- for Cresselia
A for Reuniclus

I understand where this is coming from but I really think that Cresselia's absurd bulk it has over Reuniclus stand to leave it at A rank. Cresselia can come in on Krookodile ffs, the tier's premier dark-type. Moonlight CM Cresselia straight destroys offense. Common offensive builds literally can't beat it sans Heracross who has to switch in on a potential Psyshock or Moonblast. Toxic as a whole isn't really common at the moment with its most common users being stuff like Swampert who doesn't really like running it anyways. I understand that "shitty moonlight" leaves Cresselia open to Mega Abomasnow and Hippowdon neutering its healing and this is an issue but neither of these are particularly common right now. Anyways, this is all besides the point. Basically what I'm trying to say is that Cress matches up insanely well vs offense and matches up well vs both stall and balance depending on sets. A rank

 

[DaSpoofy]

We discussed it in #xyuu that Cresselia is ranked way too high right now. It has speed, bulk, coverage options, and unpredictability over Reuniclus for sure but Reuniclus has Focus Blast which is huge for breaking Steel-types, and its immunity to Stealth Rock as well as damaging status lets it play a much more potent role in this meta.

The consensus was:

A- for Cresselia
A for Reuniclus

If cresselia was slower and had the same bulk as reuni, it would literally be a Musharna. An Nu pokemon. I guess that shows how crappy Cresselia's move pool really is. Speed and bulk keeps it alive in the meta but moonlight does suck. I think both are great Calm minders and I love cresselia's walling set in a offensive fighting meta. They both have niches. Lunar Dance for Cress and OTR for reuni. Very similiar pokemon and that's why I propose Reui for A rank and Cresselia to stay A rank. One does not outclass the other. Each has multiple niches that can be implemented on different teams. If reunicles didnt have an OTR set then I would even propose it being A rank. Its a lot harder to get calm mind going with reuni that cresselia due to speed and bulk.

I understand where this is coming from but I really think that Cresselia's absurd bulk it has over Reuniclus stand to leave it at A rank. Cresselia can come in on Krookodile ffs, the tier's premier dark-type. Moonlight CM Cresselia straight destroys offense. Common offensive builds literally can't beat it sans Heracross who has to switch in on a potential Psyshock or Moonblast. Toxic as a whole isn't really common at the moment with its most common users being stuff like Swampert who doesn't really like running it anyways. I understand that "shitty moonlight" leaves Cresselia open to Mega Abomasnow and Hippowdon neutering its healing and this is an issue but neither of these are particularly common right now. Anyways, this is all besides the point. Basically what I'm trying to say is that Cress matches up insanely well vs offense and matches up well vs both stall and balance depending on sets. A rank

It confuses down special walls. Both Empoleon and Mamphy have no reliable recovery and the things that do can be Worked Up on. S rank is well suited for this Bird of Birds,

 

[Magis4Life]

Want to nominate kyurem from A- --> A rank. kyurem is a really good mon atm and is not only one of the most effective wallbreakers atm courtesy of 120 base spattk, a decent speed tier, and solid offensive STAB, but is quite versatile in the number of sets it can run, such as scarf, specs, all out attacker, subroost, etc. It is also pretty splashable on a variety of archetypes (I have seen it perform well on balance, hazard stacking offense, bulky offense, HO, even stall as it benefits a lot from hazards ofc) and it's typing is also pretty decent defensively, though albeit of a mixed bag as being weak to the common dragon and particularly fighting combined with albeit lackluster speed can still leave it easily revenge kill at times but it still carries the ever so useful resistances to water and electric especially. ijust find kyurem's splashability, versatility, and efficiency in the roles it can perform to make it worthy of A.

 

[IronBullet]

Cress definitely cannot come in on Krookodile. Sure it can switch in on Earthquake, but the most common Krook set right now (Black Glasses) beats it easily with Knock Off + Taunt while Moonblast doesn't even 2HKO from the defensive set.

It also doesn't straight up beat offense, because defensive Cress is weak and requires a lot of boosts before it can actually hurt stuff. For example, a +1 Psyshock doesn't even 2HKO Feraligatr who can SD in its face and 2HKO with Crunch. It also can't touch Steels at all. And with Knock Off and U-turn being so common on offensive teams, Cress is going to be under a lot of pressure to accomplish much.

Regarding status, Cress has to worry about Scald too along with Toxic. Reuniclus doesn't give a damn about Scald burns, but they vastly limits Cresselia's walling potential.

It's not just weather that's a problem for Moonlight; 8 PP is nothing to write home about. HippoStout has been rising in popularity, and with Mega Abomasnow being A- ranked it's safe to say that Recover is a big advantage for Reuniclus.

So in summary, I don't feel it matches up that well against offense with U-turn and Knock Off being so common. On more defensive teams Toxic is ever-present which destroys CM + Moonlight Cress. It also can't touch common Steel-types found on defensive teams such as Mega Aggron. I also feel that its power in general leaves a lot to desired. Reuniclus on the other hand doesn't care about status, has Focus Blast for Steels, 125 base Sp Atk, and gets a far more reliable recovery move than Cress with Recover.

Still advocating Reuniclus to stay in A and to drop Cress to A-.

 

[Skankovich]

Umbreon for B+

I really, really don't dont understand why this is so low, especially when everyone is suddenly hyping up pory2 as the next big thing yet many of the same faults leave Umbreon lingering in B. Both Pory and Umbreon are fat mixed walls with a shared main flaw of being weak to fighting. Both can run spdef or phys def sets. Both of them deal with Gatr and Mence when phys def.

When I asked why Umbreon was so low in showdown chat, the first reason I was given was heracross. The thing is, pory2 is even more heracross bait because foul play does more than tri attack, and hera isn't a mon you want to Twave, not to mention Umbreon can protect to scout choiced attacks. This applies to most fighting types- only mienshao and Toxicroak take more damage from tri attack than foul play (also scrafty but...). The next reason given was wishtect leaves it vulnerable to roar unlike pory, but if that's an issue umbreon can just run moonlight. The final reason was that justified users can take advantage of foul play, which like, ok, but that seems a little minor to be in B (also its not like Pory isn't set up bait for luc and sub cobalion anyway).

So, they do pretty similar things. My issue is that unlike pory2 Umbreon provides so much more utility to a team that lets it fit on more playstyles. It can wish pass and keep recovery-less mons healthy, it can pack heal bell to keep status off of a team, it can use baton pass to maintain momentum. This means it's way easier to slot into stall where slots are tight in terms of needed utility, whereas all pory does is wall stuff and spread paralysis. This utility also means it can still actually do stuff against fat teams , unlike pory2 who becomes a pretty useless set of vertices.

All this and it gets leftovers recovery and isn't crippled by knock off! So yeah, this has no business being in B and should be B+ at least imo.

 

[YABO]

Cress definitely cannot come in on Krookodile. Sure it can switch in on Earthquake, but the most common Krook set right now (Black Glasses) beats it easily with Knock Off + Taunt while Moonblast doesn't even 2HKO from the defensive set.

It also doesn't just straight up beat offense, because defensive Cress is weak and requires a lot of boosts before it can actually hurt stuff. For example, a +1 Psyshock doesn't even 2HKO Feraligatr who can SD in its face and 2HKO with Crunch. It also can't touch Steels at all. And with Knock Off and U-turn being so common on offensive teams, Cress is going to be under a lot of pressure to accomplish much.

Regarding status, it's not just Toxic that Cress has to worry about, but Scald too. Reuniclus doesn't give a damn about Scald burns, but they vastly limits Cresselia's walling potential.

It's not just weather that's a problem for Moonlight, 8 PP is nothing to write home about. HippoStout has been rising in popularity, and with Mega Abomasnow being A- ranked it's safe to say that Recover is a big advantage for Reuniclus.

So in summary, I don't feel it matches up that well against offense with U-turn and Knock Off being so common. On more defensive teams Toxic is ever-present which destroys CM + Moonlight Cress. It also can't touch common Steel-types found on defensive teams such as Mega Aggron. I also feel that its power in general leaves a lot to desired. Reuniclus on the other hand doesn't care about status, has Focus Blast for Steels, and gets a far more reliable recovery move than Cress with Recover.

Still advocating Reuniclus to stay in A and to drop Cress to A-.

Knock Off does nothing to Cresselia aside from dropping the item. Also, Cresselia certainly has a chance to beat Krookodile so long as it lacks Taunt which is not the most common filler option atm given Krook's reliability as a rocks setter.

252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 224-266 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 126-150 (28.3 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

Given Krookodile's tendency to switch into Knock Offs it isn't unreasonable to assume that it has either Lefties, Helmet, or has no item. Again, lacking Taunt leaves this guy losing out eventually, especially if you come in on Earthquake initially. While you have to watch out for Gatr, Cresselia's ridiculous bulk lets it tank through pretty much every other offensive threat. Lucario, Mienshao, Nidoqueen, Mence, and many others just flat out lose under pretty much any circumstances. 8 PP is certainly a let down but for the most part it's all you'll need provided the game doesn't extend too long. Steels, while troublesome, are commonly dealt with by utilizing Cress's common partners such as Krook, Pert, and others. In terms of U-Turn I'll just leave this calc here for effect.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 220-260 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[DaSpoofy]

252 Atk Dread Plate Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 224-266 (50.4 - 59.9%)
252 Atk Dread Plate Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%)
No cress cant come in on Krook but it can beat it one on one if it doesnt run taunt. I havnt seen taunt krook in ages.
I see pursuit, stone edge, and super power.

Edit: Damn ninjad

 

[Magis4Life]

umbreon for B+

I really, really don't dont understand why this is so low, especially when everyone is suddenly hyping up pory2 as the next big thing yet many of the same faults leave Umbreon lingering in B. Both Pory and Umbreon are fat mixed walls with a shared main flaw of being weak to fighting. Both can run spdef or phys def sets. Both of them deal with Gatr and Mence when phys def.

When I asked why Umbreon was so low in showdown chat, the first reason I was given was heracross. The thing is, pory2 is even more heracross bait because foul play does more than tri attack, and hera isn't a mon you want to Twave, not to mention Umbreon can protect to scout choiced attacks. This applies to most fighting types- only mienshao and Toxicroak take more damage from tri attack than foul play (also scrafty but...). The next reason given was wishtect leaves it vulnerable to roar unlike pory, but if that's an issue umbreon can just run moonlight. The final reason was that justified users can take advantage of foul play, which like, ok, but that seems a little minor to be in B (also its not like Pory isn't set up bait for luc and sub cobalion anyway).

So, they do pretty similar things. My issue is that unlike pory2 Umbreon provides so much more utility to a team that lets it fit on more playstyles. It can wish pass and keep recovery-less mons healthy, it can pack heal bell to keep status off of a team, it can use baton pass to maintain momentum. This means it's way easier to slot into stall where slots are tight in terms of needed utility, whereas all pory does is wall stuff and spread paralysis. This utility also means it can still actually do stuff against fat teams , unlike pory2 who becomes a pretty useless set of vertices.

All this and it gets leftovers recovery and isn't crippled by knock off! So yeah, this has no business being in B and should be B+ at least imo.

I find porygon2's overall utility to be more of an impact in the metagame than umbreon. On top of having much more reliable recovery in well recover, it also has excellent coverage options in the ever so useful bolt beam combo that allows p2 to better check the likes of Mence and m-aero, two of the best offensive mons in the tier whereas umbreon only gets so far with them with foul play and is less reliable in this regard. P2 just does better in its role as a defensive pivot while better shutting down top tier threats courtesy of better defenses due to eviolite, three superior abilities in download, analytic, and trace, the former which further enhances its offensive presence that umbreon lacks other than foul play, the latter which can give it more niches in shutting down chandelure and tracing the ever so useful abilities like intimidate, immunity (against gligar), etc. The traits that P2 has solidify its abilities to better check some of the best offensive mons in the metagame and have a more definitive role in the meta compared to umbreon, who has imo fallen a little from grace from xy.
Edit: Though I'm not entirely opposed to a slight raise to B+, I'm not entirely sold on the idea.

 

[Skankovich]

I find porygon2's overall utility to be more of an impact in the metagame than umbreon. On top of having much more reliable recovery in well recover, it also has excellent coverage options in the ever so useful bolt beam combo that allows p2 to better check the likes of Mence and m-aero, two of the best offensive mons in the tier whereas umbreon only gets so far with them with foul play and is less reliable in this regard. P2 just does better in its role as a defensive pivot while better shutting down top tier threats courtesy of better defenses due to eviolite, three superior abilities in download, analytic, and trace, the former which further enhances its offensive presence that umbreon lacks other than foul play, the latter which can give it more niches in shutting down chandelure and tracing the ever so useful abilities like intimidate, immunity (against gligar), etc. The traits that P2 has solidify its abilities to better check some of the best offensive mons in the metagame and have a more definitive role in the meta compared to umbreon, who has imo fallen a little from grace from xy.

Foul play does more to aero than pory's ice beam does and can't be roosted into pitiful damage, and mence is 1hko'd by foul play at +1 anyway. It's defenses are a little better but it's rarely relevant when you take leftovers into account- band entei does 50% ish max to umbreon and 40% ish max to pory, but when you take leftovers into account thats only a 4% difference in damage done.

Umbreon doesn't really need its offensive presence enhancing, STAB foul play is just that good in this tier. There's just nowhere near enough difference in the performance of these mons to have 2 sub ranks between them.

EDIT: oml autocorrect

 

[IronBullet]

Knock Off does nothing to Cresselia aside from dropping the item. Also, Cresselia certainly has a chance to beat Krookodile so long as it lacks Taunt which is not the most common filler option atm given Krook's reliability as a rocks setter.

252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 224-266 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 126-150 (28.3 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

Given Krookodile's tendency to switch into Knock Offs it isn't unreasonable to assume that it has either Lefties, Helmet, or has no item. Again, lacking Taunt leaves this guy losing out eventually, especially if you come in on Earthquake initially. While you have to watch out for Gatr, Cresselia's ridiculous bulk lets it tank through pretty much every other offensive threat. Lucario, Mienshao, Nidoqueen, Mence, and many others just flat out lose under pretty much any circumstances. 8 PP is certainly a let down but for the most part it's all you'll need provided the game doesn't extend too long. Steels, while troublesome, are commonly dealt with by utilizing Cress's common partners such as Krook, Pert, and others. In terms of U-Turn I'll just leave this calc here for effect.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 220-260 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't see why Krook's ability to set up SR should interfere with running Taunt. Taunt / Stealth Rock / Knock Off / Earthquake is a perfectly viable moveset that I've seen quite often.

Knocking off Cresselia's item does a lot more harm than you're letting on here. With Stealth Rock and no Lefties recovery it's going to be worn down incredibly easily by the threats you mentioned. Mienshao can easily U-turn out as Cress comes in building chip damage on it for free. Lucario cleanly 2HKOs after a boost with either Iron Tail or Crunch. +1 Salamence easily 2HKOs with Life Orb Outrage while Cresselia doesn't even OHKO with Ice Beam without Stealth Rock.

8 PP is fine against offense, but is certainly a let down against defensive teams and any offensive team carrying Mega Abomasnow, HippoStout or even Rain Dance Mega Swampert for that matter, which is another Pokemon it has the capability to wall but simply cannot thanks to Moonlight being neutered.

You can't really justify something by saying that "its teammates deal with it easily" because I can simply make the same argument eg. sure Cress counters Salamence but I can easily utilise its common teammate Chandelure who beats Cress handily. Additionally I see no reason why Krookodile and Swampert should be common teammates for Cress. Krook also can't switch into Steel-types that easily, Mega Aggron does quite a bit with Heavy Slam while something like Escavalier just destroys it.

And regarding U-turn, I actually meant Pokemon that U-turn as Cress switches in. Mienshao, Crobat and common scarfers are a perfect example of this. Cress is expected to check stuff like Mienshao and Crobat. But if it switches in and they U-turn, it's essentially just accumulated chip damage while the opponent can switch to something threatening.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Fighting types switch in and do damage. Current rank is fine for umbreon

 

[YABO]

I don't see why Krook's ability to set up SR should interfere with running Taunt. Taunt / Stealth Rock / Knock Off / Earthquake is a perfectly viable moveset that I've seen quite often.

Knocking off Cresselia's item does a lot more harm than you're letting on here. With Stealth Rock and no Lefties recovery it's going to be worn down incredibly easily by the threats you mentioned. Mienshao can easily U-turn out as Cress comes in building chip damage on it for free. Lucario cleanly 2HKOs after a boost with either Iron Tail or Crunch. +1 Salamence easily 2HKOs with Life Orb Outrage while Cresselia doesn't even OHKO with Ice Beam without Stealth Rock.

8 PP is fine against offense, but is certainly a let down against defensive teams and any offensive team carrying Mega Abomasnow, HippoStout or even Rain Dance Mega Swampert for that matter, which is another Pokemon it has the capability to wall but simply cannot thanks to Moonlight being neutered.

You can't really justify something by saying that "its teammates deal with it easily" because I can simply make the same argument eg. sure Cress counters Salamence but I can easily utilise its common teammate Chandelure who beats Cress handily. Additionally I see no reason why Krookodile and Swampert should be common teammates for Cress. Krook also can't switch into Steel-types that easily, Mega Aggron does quite a bit with Heavy Slam while something like Escavalier just destroys it.

And regarding U-turn, I actually meant Pokemon that U-turn as Cress switches in. Mienshao, Crobat and common scarfers are a perfect example of this. Cress is expected to check stuff like Mienshao and Crobat. But if it switches in and they U-turn, it's essentially just accumulated chip damage while the opponent can switch to something threatening.

All fair points. I concede defeat ;-;

 

[IronBullet]

You fought honourably n_n

I do agree though that its bulk lets it check a ridiculous amount of stuff. That Beedrill calc especially is insane lol. But yeah there's just a lot of small factors that add up to hamper its defensive capabilities quite significantly, which is why A- is probably the best place for it.