Funny that you mention that. I was going to use a transferred Groudon as an ace in the hole against Kyogre, only to find that even holding the Red Orb and learning Precipice Blades, I was unable to get my Groudon to Primal Revert, so it was on to plan B...
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
The ORAS Rayquaza could only mega evolve if humans wished for it to. Hence the dialogue when it mega evolves.
Spoiler for those who haven't played yet.
Groudon/Kyogre unleash a special energy in the storyline required for primal reversion. If that energy isn't present in the world, it makes sense why they wouldn't undergo a primal reversion, even with the correct item.
But Mega Evolution only exists in the Mega Timeline. I doubt people in the non-Mega Timeline could wish for Rayquaza to Mega Evolve no matter how hard they try. Hence why I said Rayquaza sent over from games before Gen VI would be freshly exposed to the Infinity Energy (which is what the Devon Corporation is calling the energy that allows for Mega Evolution). Also its said Rayquaza (at least the one for ORAS) needs to eat meteorites in order to Mega Evolve. So there's more to Rayquaza'a Mega Evolution then just praying.
Spoiler.
If there's enough of that energy flowing through the world to spawn all the non-R/S Pokemon encounters, I'd be willing to bet Rayquazas from other universes get enough of it from learning to ascend from the heavens as an attack. It's already been established that there's a lot of that energy in the upper layers of the atmosphere, which is why mega stones fall on Hoenn as meteors.
Now, if you remember, mega stones in Kalos were originally ordinary evolution stones that were irradiated by the ancient life/death machine. If just being in the mega universe was enough, Rayquaza would've had mega evolution capabilities in XY.
Now, if you remember, mega stones in Kalos were originally ordinary evolution stones that were irradiated by the ancient life/death machine. If just being in the mega universe was enough, Rayquaza would've had mega evolution capabilities in XY.
Well it still needs to learn Dragon Ascent to Mega Evolve which wasn't possible in XY.
As far as VGC is concerned (and Battle Institute/'facilities') Rayquaza itself is banned, Mega or not, so the odds of them making it require a hold item in future games are about as high as them replacing Pikachu as the franchise's mascot. In other words, unlikely to happen.
That reminds me, Clefairy was going to be the mascot for Pokemon once upon a time.
I guess so, it just seems so odd they would so blatantly break the rules for Mega Evolution they set up for themselves after having going to an extent to try and balance things. Then again, since Rayquaza was banned anyway they decided "why not?". Still an odd reason and feels like they kind of didn't care, like they just wanted to have that one Pokemon which was super awesome broken and get it out of their system.
That was mainly due to Clefairy being the mascot of one of the Pokemon Manga (Pokemon Pocket Monsters), but they decided Pikachu was more neutral for audiences of both genders (being colored yellow instead of pink. Pikachu was also Clefairy's cousin and sort of a second main Pokemon character in Pokemon Pocket Monsters so there was a reason for the choice) so made it the mascot of the anime. And since the anime became popular and allowed Pokemon to spread so quickly, Pikachu was made the mascot of the entire series.
Given how we still have at least one more gen 6 game coming before dropping the blue pentagon, and Zygarde currently really doesn't seem like much of a master of its trio with Xerneas and Yveltal, and there's still the Thousand Waves/Arrows moves designated for it with no current means for it to legally have them... don't get your hopes up of Game Freak having gotten the 'super awesome broken Pokemon' bug out of their system just yet.
That's something that's been bugging me for a while now. Kyurem's unreleased moves prior to the second half of gen 5 made a lot of sense, but these two moves...what's going to happen with them? Is it going to be another fusion thing, a mega evolution, or are they going to bring primal reversion to Kalos? (Moreover, I wonder how the latter would fit into the story.)
My guess a Mega Evolution. Zygarde's stats are too low to deal with Xerneas and Yveltal as it is so I'm guessing it'll get two Mega Evolution that specifically deals with each one separately. Zygarde's "secret" signature moves seemed to be aimed to hurt flying opponents (Yveltal) and afflict ground opponents (Xerneas). Of course that's just a wild guess, we won't really know until XY2 is released and we see what they do. Though one of the main questions probably would be will it be a singe third game of a second pair game?
Yeah, that's another question ripe on my mind. Everyone anticipated "gray version", but two separate sequels came out instead (Although personally, both seemed more like a gray version to me anyhow).
BW was heavily story-driven, though. I wonder if this theoretical "Z version" will be a retelling of XY, or an actual sequel?
I'm certainly predicting a Z version based around Zygarde, and hoping for it to be a sequel, although the same story seems more likely, when you consider how XY ended. Unlike with Team Plasma, I don't think there's anywhere left to go with Lysandre and Team Flare.
Also, I'm not sure if the Z version will have a mega evolution for Zygarde, or any new data at all, at least without a patch to ORAS at least. ORAS and XY are already incompatible to an extent, do they really want to have three sets of games in the same generation, all not forwards compatible?
This is dangerously starting to get into wishlist and unconfirmed speculation territory though. I do really like the idea that Zygarde has somehow lost some of its power over the years and used to be much more powerful (like Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon). I think this was sort of hinted at in XY? I don't know, it's been a while.
(also hey guys, I'm still part of this thread!)
Also, I'm not sure if the Z version will have a mega evolution for Zygarde, or any new data at all, at least without a patch to ORAS at least. ORAS and XY are already incompatible to an extent, do they really want to have three sets of games in the same generation, all not forwards compatible?
This is dangerously starting to get into wishlist and unconfirmed speculation territory though. I do really like the idea that Zygarde has somehow lost some of its power over the years and used to be much more powerful (like Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon). I think this was sort of hinted at in XY? I don't know, it's been a while.
(also hey guys, I'm still part of this thread!)
I disagree. Malva herself opens up a lot of possibilities for further development in Team Flare. As she is a first in the series (an Elite Four member that delivers the Kalos news and who's also part / was part of a villainous team), this opens up a lot of paths in some unanswered questions: What is her affiliation in Team Flare and how does she tie in with Xerosic? What's her "bargain" with Looker in the whole Emma situation? There's certainly content to expand upon, and their motives can tie in directly with Zygarde's whole "order of the ecosystem" motif.
I kinda held off on commenting on Malva as I never finished the Looker storyline so I'm not actually sure what happens with her in the end. Like I said, I'd much prefer a sequel so I'm certainly hoping they go in this direction. As long as they have a good reason for there to still be Team Flare goons to fight, it would work.
My apologies, I didn't mean to trigger speculation, I was just feeding my curiosity.
Also, hello! Nice to meet you.
(Late reply because my internet decided it didn't want to function)
Edit:
I find it intriguing to think about how Zygarde is the "protector of the ecosystem" when both Kyogre and Groudon drastically threatened the ecosystem in ORAS. Zygarde is bad at its job. Then again, it's already bad at dealing with Xerneas and Yveltal...
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Maybe he figured the humans would save them. Or maybe as we'll see in the next version there's some complicated method that humans have to use to summon Zygarde in order to fix the environment and when it happens he comes in and Mega Evolves or something like that.
A lot of times, I see Xerneas representing good and Yveltal representing evil (evidence: M17) but I think eternal life can be just as dangerous as death (evidence: AZ, Floette). Sure, it's cool to be able to live forever and all, but you start to upset the ecosystem and ruin the balance that way. That's why I think Zygarde will show itself to be the "good" force in this struggle, fighting off Xerneas and Yveltal. This is getting speculative though, so I shouldn't keep on this topic much longer.
The way BW set up it was pretty much impossible to combine it into a third "combine" version. One of the themes of the game was duality, you got one of the dragons and N got the other. There's really no way to combine that unless they added a choice system and even then unless they change some plot points the story may feel flimsy (not to mention there may be some problems with the area exclusive locations). A second pair of sequel games not only solved the "third version problem" but also let them experiment by trying a direct sequel story (yes, Gen II was sort of a direct sequel to Gen I, but BW and BW2 were within the same generation and region). While I do think BW had a better story, I would still say BW2 was successful in its own right and showed a sequel game is not only possible but just as profitable.
But with XY its story is so simple it can easily be combined into one story. Each game only tells one side of Lysandre's plan (well, at least Y did, X probably included the genocide (Y only focused on the genocide and from what I recall never once mentioned Team Flare getting immortality)), all they would have to do is have Lysandre capture both Legendaries and explain he'll use Yveltal's power to do the genocide and Xerneas's power to give Team Flare immortality. And from there you can maybe have Zygarde come in sensing someone is messing with the balance of life and
(I go into a bit of speculation. I've hidden it so its out of the way. Being speculation you can skip this. To sum up what I'm saying, they can either do a second pair game like BW2 OR maybe try doing a third version sequel (they'll just need to be vague about what actually happened).)
BUT they can go for the sequel right just as well, infact they have two options they can do. One is making a second pair of games which maybe explores the fallout of Lysandre firing the Ultimate Weapon. Sure right away it didn't have a noticeable effect, but who's to say there wasn't a prolonged effect that took a few years before it became noticeable. Like for X they can have plant life start overgrowing due to Xerneas's power making the environment longer living, healthier, stronger, and bigger. For Y they could have the opposite happen where the environment starts dying out leaving the ground barren and rivers drying out. Then the whole story could be maybe finding the opposite Legendary to try and fix things (maybe up the ante by revealing if its not fixed soon people and Pokemon will be feeling the effects) by using the opposite power but Zygarde then comes in and solves everything. Not sure where a villain team comes in, if they combine the stories maybe they'll reveal Lysandre was given immortality but is heavily wounded from having the Ultimate Weapon and the facility powering it falling on top of him (the 4 lady scientists sort of vanished, I can see them maybe turning him into a cyborg).
OR they can maybe try a third version sequel. With the stories "combined" (though of course not outright said which one happened), they can maybe more focus on that Team Flare idea I mentioned and have Lysandre doing something that'll cause havoc to the environment which would cause Zygarde to get involved.
Eitherway, I'm predicting the return of Team Flare in some form and the involvement of Zygarde.
BUT they can go for the sequel right just as well, infact they have two options they can do. One is making a second pair of games which maybe explores the fallout of Lysandre firing the Ultimate Weapon. Sure right away it didn't have a noticeable effect, but who's to say there wasn't a prolonged effect that took a few years before it became noticeable. Like for X they can have plant life start overgrowing due to Xerneas's power making the environment longer living, healthier, stronger, and bigger. For Y they could have the opposite happen where the environment starts dying out leaving the ground barren and rivers drying out. Then the whole story could be maybe finding the opposite Legendary to try and fix things (maybe up the ante by revealing if its not fixed soon people and Pokemon will be feeling the effects) by using the opposite power but Zygarde then comes in and solves everything. Not sure where a villain team comes in, if they combine the stories maybe they'll reveal Lysandre was given immortality but is heavily wounded from having the Ultimate Weapon and the facility powering it falling on top of him (the 4 lady scientists sort of vanished, I can see them maybe turning him into a cyborg).
OR they can maybe try a third version sequel. With the stories "combined" (though of course not outright said which one happened), they can maybe more focus on that Team Flare idea I mentioned and have Lysandre doing something that'll cause havoc to the environment which would cause Zygarde to get involved.
Eitherway, I'm predicting the return of Team Flare in some form and the involvement of Zygarde.
My guess whatever direction the story takes, at one point Zygarde would probably be going up against Yveltal or Xerneas. Being both weaker and having a type disadvantage, I do think at least a form of Mega Evolution would be needed for Zygarde to be a match against them (though it may not have to be called Mega Evolution or Primal Reversion). However Detective Barricade made me thought of something. The only thing Rayquaza needs to Mega Evolve is knowing Dragon Ascent, so what if the same is for Zygarde? The story would put Zygarde up against Yveltal or Xerneas and it would then reveal it knows Thousand Arrows or Thousand Wave and do a form of Mega Evolution to better face its opponent.
Who knows, maybe Rayquaza was just a start of a trend of having the "leader" of Legendary groups only needing a move to Mega Evolve to given them a greater advantage over its other members who would need a Mega Stone to (which would mean Arceus, Kyurem, Landorus, and Cobalion should get the same treatment. Not sure about Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Regigigas though).
Going into too much wishlisting and speculation, we'd never do that. *shifty eyes*
Anyway, I don't think they really care if they make XY2 incompatible with ORAS. If they didn't care about making ORAS compatible with XY, why would they care making XY2 compatible with ORAS? Hopefully next generation they plan ahead more and maybe implement a way to patch games to make them compatible with others if they add things to newer games in that generation which wasn't in the previous games.
I never got that Zygarde lost its power, I more got it was in a deep sleep until it was needed or woken up. Zygarde awakens on its own when the environment is in danger. Technically speaking Team Flare's plans wasn't effecting the environment at that moment, and by the time it did it would be too late and Zygarde would be killed off with the rest of the Pokemon. So really in XY's story Zygarde had no role to play so stayed asleep (note at the time Xerneas and Yveltal were also asleep in their tree/stone form so its not like Team Flare needed to cause any trouble to transport them to power the Ultimate Weapon, so you can't use that are an argument for Zygarde to get involved).
Yeah, it does seem a bit off for Malva just to be an admin considering she's not only a member of the Elite Four but also a news anchor allowing her to cover up Team Flare's activity. To me that would imply having a pretty high position, on the same level or even above the scientists. Infact where was she when the player was blasting through the Ultimate Weapon facility? Lysandre announced his plan to kill everyone at that point, she should have been with Lysandre at the Ultimate Weapon to ensure nothing stops them.
I don't think she has any ties with Xerosic. She just knew he was probably using the Team Flare HQ to do his Expansion Suit experiments and found it sickening he would experiment on a child (a bit hypocritical considering Team Flare's would probably have killed every single child, but I guess she thought they probably wouldn't suffer so it was for the greater good?).
As for her bargain with Looker, I always took it as her agreeing to tell Looker and the player where they can find Xerosic in exchange for Looker probably getting rid of any evidence he had collected on her being associated with Team Flare. But I never did think about it maybe having some importance to a possible sequel game. Maybe Looker knew something that the rest of Team Flare didn't? You know, I always found it odd how its implied that no one is going to bother looking for Lysandre's body in the wreckage of the Ultimate Weapon. Maybe someone DID retrieve Lysandre's body, maybe not the international police but probably some government group (and no doubt the international police would probably know about it), and kept it secret since Lysandre would have been the one most exposed to the Ultimate Weapon's radiation (and as I said, part of his plan was to make himself immortal so maybe they found an alive Lysandre and are now keeping him imprisoned somewhere). BUT I'll stop there as that's going into speculation again and we don't want a repeat of what I did above. Point is, now I'm beginning to rethink what the deal Looker made with Malva was.
Rayquaza is in charge of Groudon and Kyogre in Hoenn. Zygarde is in Kalos and probably has its hands... err, tendrils full dealing with the very embodiments of life and
I see Xerneas nor Yveltal as neither good nor evil, they're just forces of nature. Life is generally looked at being a good thing, but too much of it could cause overpopulation and resources being used up faster (sound familiar?).
If I had to guess, I'd assume Zygarde's power to be more akin to Primal Reversion from a story standpoint (no idea mechanically). Within the Game's world, the implication is that Xerneas/Yveltal haven't been seen for a long time, much less out of control to the point of Zygarde having to interfere. Similarly, Kyogre and Groudon's powers decayed over time while they were slumbering and required the Orbs to regain it. What supports this further to me is that Zygarde presently seems almost designed to lose to them in practice: each being immune to one of its STABs, neither of which covers the other for a duality idea, having weaker stats.
I'm not sure about the concept of a Kyurem style form change though. Kyurem's form changes came about not just because of a connection to Reshiram/Zekrom, but from outright having been the same being at one point, hence it could naturally reassimilate them. Zygarde's seems more like it has a power that it can use when necessary, but by the time you encounter it, Xerneas/Yveltal aren't wreaking havoc. Alternatively, maybe it was trying to gather power and you stopped them first. Considering the Zygarde (form?) you encounter seems ill-equipped to fight either of them, maybe it had to hibernate or "reawaken" or something.
The one thing I'm wondering is if Zygarde is just powerful enough to contend with either at full power (one forme) or if it has to focus itself a certain way depending on who's the problem (two forms, one for each move).
Now that I think about it, what if Zygarde is weak because of AZ? Even if Xerneas and Yveltal weren't directly used by him for the weapon, the purposes (Giving life to Floette and eradicating the armies of the Great War) mirror them closely. What if Zygarde interfered with AZ's attempt to play Arceus, and whatever transpired left it in the weakened state where it couldn't defeat Xerneas/Yveltal in the present. It'd even make sense if he did directly use the mons, since Zygarde might not be strong enough to stop both at once/in succession, and had never found itself in that situation naturally before.
As opposed to Kalos, where Xerneas and Yveltal could actively control what lives and dies with their power, Groudon and Kyogre have influence over the weather, mainly clashing with each other, and the ecological disruptions are collateral damage. Zygarde might only be equipped/suited to stop Xerneas/Yveltal because it can directly counter their powers, whereas Groudon and Kyogre are flat out stronger than it with respect for the job it's attempting to do in stopping them from harming the environment.
And at the risk of getting into speculation myself, I wonder about the potential of involving the other legendary based on Lysandre's unknown fate at the end of XY, considering they have potential to mirror/foil AZ's eternal life curse. For a hypothetical X2, maybe he seeks Yveltal himself because he knows the eternal life from exposure to the weapon/Xerneas is a curse and wnats to be rid of it, whereas a Y2 could be Malva looking to resurrect Team Flare and wanting Xerneas to restore Lysandre to life/health after Yveltal's fallout. Also gives a justification to change up the Elite 4 with her moving out of the position.
That's another point though. Was Malva an Elite 4 Member while she was part of Team Flare, and if so, which position did she hold first? Did Team Flare have underlying influence as far as the Pokemon League? Was Malva corrupted as a member, or did she join to further some plan of Flare's that didn't ultimately come to pass? I think this is the first time an Elite Four member has had any outright affiliation with the villainous team discounting N becoming Champion briefly in BW1.
I'm not sure about the concept of a Kyurem style form change though. Kyurem's form changes came about not just because of a connection to Reshiram/Zekrom, but from outright having been the same being at one point, hence it could naturally reassimilate them. Zygarde's seems more like it has a power that it can use when necessary, but by the time you encounter it, Xerneas/Yveltal aren't wreaking havoc. Alternatively, maybe it was trying to gather power and you stopped them first. Considering the Zygarde (form?) you encounter seems ill-equipped to fight either of them, maybe it had to hibernate or "reawaken" or something.
The one thing I'm wondering is if Zygarde is just powerful enough to contend with either at full power (one forme) or if it has to focus itself a certain way depending on who's the problem (two forms, one for each move).
Now that I think about it, what if Zygarde is weak because of AZ? Even if Xerneas and Yveltal weren't directly used by him for the weapon, the purposes (Giving life to Floette and eradicating the armies of the Great War) mirror them closely. What if Zygarde interfered with AZ's attempt to play Arceus, and whatever transpired left it in the weakened state where it couldn't defeat Xerneas/Yveltal in the present. It'd even make sense if he did directly use the mons, since Zygarde might not be strong enough to stop both at once/in succession, and had never found itself in that situation naturally before.
This goes back to something I speculated on with regards to Arceus being the God/Creator of Sinnoh rather than the entire world. Maybe Zygarde is only responsible for the Ecosystem in Kalos, or only for direct threats to the balance of life.
As opposed to Kalos, where Xerneas and Yveltal could actively control what lives and dies with their power, Groudon and Kyogre have influence over the weather, mainly clashing with each other, and the ecological disruptions are collateral damage. Zygarde might only be equipped/suited to stop Xerneas/Yveltal because it can directly counter their powers, whereas Groudon and Kyogre are flat out stronger than it with respect for the job it's attempting to do in stopping them from harming the environment.
And at the risk of getting into speculation myself, I wonder about the potential of involving the other legendary based on Lysandre's unknown fate at the end of XY, considering they have potential to mirror/foil AZ's eternal life curse. For a hypothetical X2, maybe he seeks Yveltal himself because he knows the eternal life from exposure to the weapon/Xerneas is a curse and wnats to be rid of it, whereas a Y2 could be Malva looking to resurrect Team Flare and wanting Xerneas to restore Lysandre to life/health after Yveltal's fallout. Also gives a justification to change up the Elite 4 with her moving out of the position.
That's another point though. Was Malva an Elite 4 Member while she was part of Team Flare, and if so, which position did she hold first? Did Team Flare have underlying influence as far as the Pokemon League? Was Malva corrupted as a member, or did she join to further some plan of Flare's that didn't ultimately come to pass? I think this is the first time an Elite Four member has had any outright affiliation with the villainous team discounting N becoming Champion briefly in BW1.
Maybe someone from a secret base had it? Maybe a while ago you fought someone with the Japanese Shiny Genesect event?
It's the Secret Base as Wi-Fi battles don't count towards the Pokédex (if you can't get Experience or catch it, it doesn't count towards the Pokédex).
Umm, why does most everyone think Lysandre is dead, or at least, still in the facility. He started up the weapon when you were right next to him and you got out just fine, so why couldn't he have also gotten out. Sure, he was seemingly suicidal at that point, but there probably was enough time to think, "If everyone thinks I am dead, then I can escape and lay the foundation for a sequel." Or something like that.
I don't know, I think it may have to do with the way the characters in the game talk and that after what happened and even after becoming Champion you see really nothing happening in Geosenge Town.
I have an odd thought. My theory found within the hide.
Mewtwo is a result of horrifying experiments involving gene splicing. It's possible for living creatures to have a body different than what its genes are, via surgery. What if the Mewtwo we know is just a surgically altered body? I would like to point to mega Mewtwo Y for why I thought of this. Out of the mega Mewtwos, Y is more "natural". The mega stat allocation and type are why I think this. Mega Mewtwo Y also looks like a horrific genetic abomination. When a Pokemon mega evolves, you draw out its true power, which in Mewtwo's Y mega's case, brings out a form closer to what its genes are.
To summarize, I theorize mega Mewtwo Y is the true genetic form of Mewtwo, and I think the base form is a surgically altered body. The base form DOES have an extra spinal column, after all.
As for the X mega, I have an entirely different theory about it.
To summarize, I theorize mega Mewtwo Y is the true genetic form of Mewtwo, and I think the base form is a surgically altered body. The base form DOES have an extra spinal column, after all.
As for the X mega, I have an entirely different theory about it.