Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[sanches br]

if you have problems with extremespeed spam you can use this set:

Metagross@choice scarf
serene grace
252att/252spe
adamant
- iron head
-trick
- Zen Headbutt
- u-turn

 

[Akumeoy]

if you have problems with extremespeed spam you can use this set:

Metagross@choice scarf
serene grace
252att/252spe
adamant
- iron head
-trick
- Zen Headbutt
- u-turn

I'd prefer Ice Punch over Zen Headbutt for nailing Lando-T and Salamence and whatnot, which can't KO it before it does so. Also, it should really be Jolly to let it outspeed max-speed Starmie, Raikou, Azelf, Alakazam, Sceptile, Mega Pidgeot, Tornadus-T, Greninja, and Weavile. It's powerful enough already.

While we're talking about things going fast, here's a pretty reliable counter-lead:

Hitmonlee (Terrakion) @ Normal Gem
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch

Fake Out triggers Unburden and breaks sashes, Close Combat deals quite heavy damage to most things (and is liable to KO after +1 Fake Out), Knock Off hits what Fake Out can't, and Mach Punch prevents out-prioritizing (I'm thinking here of Adamanet Adaptability banded Excadrill's Bullet Punch here). It beats things like Protean Marowak / Haxorus, Latios, most Eruption/Water Spout users (Chandelure and Gengar block its Fake Out, so have something else ready for that), Aerodactyl, you name it -- if it's offensive and not a Fairy, Terrakion has a good shot of beating it one-on-one. Don't expect it to survive, though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-228065020 Here's a demonstrative replay. There was another where it took down an Aerodactyl, but I forgot to save the replay.

 

[Snaquaza]

Hey, small update everyone.

The council has decided to add a Donor Clause to Inheritance. It has been discussed a while ago in the thread, and it'll limit a certain Pokemon being spammed, so it decreases the chance of battles being matchup based. Even though few teams use Pokemon with the same Donor, it'll still help a little. Additionally, we feel it's needed for consistency (otherwise it might not have happened, since it won't change too much, as most teams won't be affected), as it's quite strange that you can use two Pokemon with the same movepool and ability, but not the same Pokemon for the stats and the typing. In addition to this, you might say that you can have the same ability and movepool on multiple Pokemon on a normal team, but if you could previously, you're likely you still can as multiple Pokemon will have the combination!

The Donor Clause will prevent the use of using two or more Pokemon that inherit from the same evolutionary family. While the family thing will cause a few problems with drastically different Pokemon, in general it should be positive since otherwise you can spam multiple from the same line. If anyone has a problem with that you can't use some things, you can say it, but right now this is the simplest way of having this clause without needing to have multiple exceptions.

 

[pipasonze]

Hey this is a really cool meta, quite fun to play. I want to show you all this set:

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Copycat
- Encore

I saw someone on the ladder using a similar set on drapion, but i think tyranitar is much better because it is stronger, bulkier, and while it has more weaknesses, it resists brave bird and extremespeed, which is nice. Tyranitar inherits from liepard to get STAB Knock Off, as well as Play Rough for great coverage. Prankster Copycat gives you priority Knock Off if that's what you last used or it can use the opponent's last move to revenge kill them. Finally, Prankster Encore supports the team by stopping set sweepers before they can do anything; when they switch out, throw a strong Knock Off to cripple something.

Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-228019007

In regards to the Donor Clause, I don't think it was really necessary as multiple gale wings or protean users can be handled, but I'm not against it either, because with all the room for creativity this meta has, you can usually find a replacement for a pokemon which can do the same role.

 

[Lcass4919]

Hey, small update everyone.

The council has decided to add a Donor Clause to Inheritance. It has been discussed a while ago in the thread, and it'll limit a certain Pokemon being spammed, so it decreases the chance of battles being matchup based. Even though few teams use Pokemon with the same Donor, it'll still help a little. Additionally, we feel it's needed for consistency (otherwise it might not have happened, since it won't change too much, as most teams won't be affected), as it's quite strange that you can use two Pokemon with the same movepool and ability, but not the same Pokemon for the stats and the typing. In addition to this, you might say that you can have the same ability and movepool on multiple Pokemon on a normal team, but if you could previously, you're likely you still can as multiple Pokemon will have the combination!

The Donor Clause will prevent the use of using two or more Pokemon that inherit from the same evolutionary family. While the family thing will cause a few problems with drastically different Pokemon, in general it should be positive since otherwise you can spam multiple from the same line. If anyone has a problem with that you can't use some things, you can say it, but right now this is the simplest way of having this clause without needing to have multiple exceptions.

now we can focus on bigger things like gale wings and protean!

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Time for a dump of sets for a few Fighting types in the tier! And Tyranitar too cuz wynaut :)

Terrakion

Machamp

Terrakion @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch/Poison Jab/Earthquake

Standard No Guard set. Dual base 100 STABs with decent secondary effects (upped critical hit ratio and confusion respectively) that never miss coming from a great attacking stats and a good speed tier make this set a threat to non-priority users. The general utility and coverage of this set with STABs+KOff allow it to become a very powerful wallbreaker, with the added bonus of the possibility of haxing your way to victory and causing rage quits :O

Conkeldurr

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Drain Punch
- Sleep Talk

This is a set I invented when I realized my team was very status weak (I still don't know how I let that happen LOL) and in particular weak to Spore spammers from Breloom. Not only does Terrakion have enough speed to usually Knock Off their Toxic Orb, but once it is asleep it can continue to bash them with its powerful attacks via Sleep Talk! Drain Punch offers recovery as this set is easy to wear down via status+LO Recoil, with the added bonus of being SE on Regirock and Snorlax. Stone Edge is an alternate STAB while KOff is just amazing utility and is very spammable and allows you to beat PH mons.

Heracross

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn/Earthquake
- Knock Off

You heard of Moxie ScarfCross? Well, Terrakion is faster, stronger, AND bulkier, so it's like 5000% better. Eliminate priority and Unaware mons then watch stuff die. Pretty simple, double STABs, KOff, then a coverage move. I prefer Megahorn for Cresselia once it's item is gone personally, but EQ is an option too. Best paired with FF Doublade/Heatran/Regirock to eliminate priority users and Goth for Unaware mons.

Malamar

Terrakion @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe or SpD
Jolly/Careful Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This set does so much once Unaware mons and Fairies are gone (although some Fairies can be overpowered). It can function as a wallbreaker, sweeper, mixed wall, status absorber, and a good wincon for defensive teams. I prefer the fast bulky spread to make it a revenge killer as well, but SpD variants are fun too allowing you to stay in on some special attackers. ResTalk is self explanatory, Superpower gets boosts, and KOff is literally on all of my sets for its spammability (shut up that's a word now o3o), utility, and synergy with Fighting STAB.

Infernape

Wigglytuff

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 120 Atk / 136 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast

This set was created as a way to beat Intimidate Suicune while punishing Defog and other Intimidate users. You basically spam Drain Punch/KOff to lure in said Intimidate users before destroying them with +2 Fire Blast/Thunderbolt. The EVs guarantee the OHKO on physically bulky Intimidate Suicune after Rocks at +2 with Thunderbolt with the rest lumped into Attack.

Rampardos

Infernape @ Life Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

This set beats LeviTran, all variants of Doublade/Aegislash, Storm Drain Diancie, and Electric immune by ability Manaphy. Therefore it is a great partner to Protean users and -ate abusers. Other Pokemon may do this role better but Infernape has two advantages. A) STAB Fire Blast for Doublade and B) it's Infernape and Infernape is amazing and the hax gods will smile on you for using it (maybe) ;)

Greninja

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Abilkty: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- U-Turn
- Toxic Spikes

This is a standard spikes lead set from Greninja. If against an opposing hazards lead, use Taunt. Then, identify which type of Spikes will hurt the opposition more and use it. Due to your high speed+Sash you can usually get down a layer or two of Spikes barring Bouncers. U-Turn is there to function as a pivot once your hazards are set and generally nab momentum while doing chip damage. Best paired with a Spinner like the Lucario set I'll post later, and a Defiant/Competitive user.

Machamp

Infernape @ Life Orb/Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Focus Blast
- Fire Blast
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge

NEVER MISS FOCUS MISS AND FIRE MISS AGAIN!!! First two are obviously strong special STABs that take advantage of No Guard. Dynamic Punch is another STAB that is useful for lolz and hax as well as against special walls (such as Chansey). Stone Edge for burds. Sash is slashed (hehe) to soft check GW Mence if hazards aren't up and bop it with Stone Edge to the point where Fake Out or Espeed users can finish up, or just generally to stop sweeps if need be.

Remember, the key to using Infernape is its unpredictability. Despite perhaps being outclassed in some roles, it still has enough speed and power to do most jobs decently and nab surprise kills or be a good lead.

Lucario

Lucario @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- Mach Punch

I've posted this before and I'llpost it again cuz wynaut. It is an amazing spinner for Offense that has never let me down as most people don't expect it. I know other people (like hexenjaeger) have used it effectively as well. Being immune to Toxic Spikes and 4x SR resistant is great, and the other moves are all Technician boosted priority that aid in revenge killing and generally weakening offensive threats via boosted Fake Out and STAB Mach Punch/Bullet Punch.

Tyranitar

Tyraniter @ Assault Vest/Black Glasses
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-Turn
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

The ULTIMATE mind games Pokemon. Illusion + Sucker Punch + Pursuit can nab surprise kills on so many Pokemon. I have found success disguising it as a GW mon such as Mence or Lando, as nobody uses Fighting/Ground moves on a Flying type, and it can tank the Ice hits those mons hate. Generally you will U-Turn to bluff the GW mon and garner momentum as it forces inevitable switches, then once you have figured out what they use to counter the GW mon, take it out via Pursuit or Sucker Punch. Knock Off is another powerful STAB for walls. EVs hit as hard as possible, but you can choose to be bulky or fast (I prefer bulky).

YAY this is my 500th post!!

Shoutouts

MadMayMason Dude you are probably my best friend on PS and Smogon despite (or maybe because of 0.o) the difference in our ages. You may not post on the forums very often, but you are always supportive and encouraging and I know I can talk with you about pretty much anything. Thanks for being there for me man, you're a great friend :)

Tux Victini and Franky391 you 2 are also two of my closest friends, who I know can take a joke. You guys have cheered me up countless times since I joined PS and made my experience a very enjoyable one. You guys are great friends, thanks a lot <3

Deathly ♛The King, Ransei, lordmagecar, and QueBien You guys are also fun to joke around with, be it here on our walls or over an Aqua, I've had a lot of fun with you guys, thanks for being amazing <3

Snaquaza Amazing server, amazing metagames, amazing contributor/leader, and an amazing fren <3

Dream Eater Gengar ayyyy lern 2 1v1 imo. In all srsness you have been a great friend since the day I joined, having similar interests to me in monotype and 1v1, and you are one of my best friends on the site as well <3

Other people I respect, look up to, or have generally made my time on Smogon and Pokemon Showdown a great and enjoyable experience:
Anttya, Freeroamer, scpinion, Bondie, The Immortal, Eevee General, unfixable, tegrof19, Hack_Guy, Adrian Marin, E4 Flint, Uselesscrab, aesf, Kingslayer2779, Peef Rimgar, Sae Sae, Dirpz, Lucina09, E-Series 1B, Acast, Articuno I, Kl4ng, BlackSchwan, SirSkit, Feliburn, QueenieKaty, all falls down, Gnief Fiar, Pikachuun, Nani Man, Zinnia, and probably a whole bunch of other people who I forgot :)

I love all of you guys <3

 

[Jack Dalton]

Honestly for Terrakion there needs to be a mention of its Choice Banded Head Smash set. I run it on my sun team and it tears through anything not resembling two crossed swords.

Tyrantrum (Terrakion) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hey, that one vs Regirock isn't a guaranteed 2HKO!

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 168-200 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You do the math and figure out why Regirock can't switch in. The one true wall to this set is Doublade, so pack teammates with Knock Off.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Honestly for Terrakion there needs to be a mention of its Choice Banded Head Smash set. I run it on my sun team and it tears through anything not resembling two crossed swords.

Tyrantrum (Terrakion) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hey, that one vs Regirock isn't a guaranteed 2HKO!

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 168-200 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You do the math and figure out why Regirock can't switch in. The one true wall to this set is Doublade, so pack teammates with Knock Off.

Just run Adaptability... It's as powerful w/ better fighting stab

 

[Tarontos]

Just run Adaptability... It's as powerful w/ better fighting stab

252+ Atk Terrakion Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nope-head smash deals more

becuase
150*1.5=225
100*2=200
You can go one step higher in power in exchange for a quick death
252+ Atk Reckless Terrakion Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

does get a better fighting stab though

 

[Jack Dalton]

Just run Adaptability... It's as powerful w/ better fighting stab

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 206-244 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah that isn't as powerful at all. Head Smash can actually 2HKO things, and there is far less in this meta that you are hitting with Fighting STAB. How is that better Fighting STAB going to work out when they switch in Cress?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 206-244 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah that isn't as powerful at all. Head Smash can actually 2HKO things, and there is far less in this meta that you are hitting with Fighting STAB. How is that better Fighting STAB going to work out when they switch in Cress?

You are right. Though I believe Adaptability would run a better LO set. Knock off, CC, Stone edge, Espeed, Swords dance ect ect

 

[Lcass4919]

Yeah that isn't as powerful at all. Head Smash can actually 2HKO things, and there is far less in this meta that you are hitting with Fighting STAB. How is that better Fighting STAB going to work out when they switch in Cress?

but...how does that work when you previously mentioned(correctly might i add) gale wings being centralizing to the point of needing to run steel/rock types? also just because its walled by one pokemon (barely) doesn't make it any worse. terrak hits 99% of the stuff head smash would hit for the exact same damage iirc with CC. and cress is literally the ONE relivant poke that says otherwise, which still isn't a safe switchin especially with rocks up. also stallers DO run maggron, which stops that set rather easily tanking 2 superpowers and recovering off the damage/ohkoing in return, but its not like that makes your set WORSE or anything. basically both fill the exact same role, and neither outclass one another moreso then "one having more reliable/stronger fighting stab, and one having stronger rock stab". also stall teams run specially defensive cress btw, mainly since suicune, and steel/rock types usually take on the physical spectrum, and no offense team would be caught dead using cress enless its bulky calm mind. i know he said its better and stuff, but its not like headsmash is all that much greater either, which is what you are implying. both are pretty equal in terms of power, and especially in the banded department, spamming CC is safer then spamming head smash, even WITH the ghost immunity. superpower allthough still strong, gets weaker after every hit, which is terrible when you consider what this thing needs to do. meanwhile stone edge allthough weaker then head smash...still nets all the crutial 2hkos needed that cc fails to comply, only slightly missing a potential non SR 2hko on cress that run max def instead of their usual ~252/52/+200 set i see so much. so in terms of power and coverage, head smash wins, but in terms of reliability on its attacks, adapt wins due to having a "safe" spam power move, alongside a consistant-albeit shaky accuracy-covering stab move, while rocky head having a shaky accuracy "spam move" followed by a covering stab attack that progressively gets weaker.

again, both are equal, but on technical terms id pick adapt due to being more reliable in the technical hoo hah way.

 

[pipasonze]

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 206-244 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah that isn't as powerful at all. Head Smash can actually 2HKO things, and there is far less in this meta that you are hitting with Fighting STAB. How is that better Fighting STAB going to work out when they switch in Cress?

The only thing that the head smash set 2HKOes that adaptability doesnt is literally cresselia. Anything that doesnt resist fighting is at worst 2HKOed by Adaptability Close Combat. Not only is it a better move to spam than Superpower, but it actually hits a bit harder (and more accurately) than Head Smash.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

When using Adaptability you also get Extremespeed, in addition to a lot of good possible coverage moves.

While I agree Band Head Smash has a niche as it gets a stronger Rock-type STAB and Rock moves are harder to switch into than Fighting ones, I have to say that it's mostly outclassed.

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[xJownage]

I really want to know why Gale Wings and -atespeed haven't been banned yet. Stall users and balance teams with dedicated checks to birdspam in general might not mind, but the offense vs offense matchup in Inheritance currently boils down to nothing more than "who had more priority", "which lando-t won the speed tie" "who clicked stab pixilate espeed the hardest". On offense teams there is basically no counter-play to this stuff other than to run it yourself and pray you win the speed tie.

Right now this kind of priority spam is limiting teambuilding to the point to where I basically have to run scarfed Heatran or something stupid like Regirock on my hyper offense teams just to make sure I don't get 6-0'd. Banning Gale Wings as well as Espeed + Pinsirite/Altarianite/Glalitite would really open up more teambuilding options for offense and make the matchup a little more bearable.

Its a touchy thing, because if we limit priority we have to limit priority to sources that aren't broken, because otherwise the problem for offense gets WORSE. Race to set up your huntail Gyarados-M or something of the like. Either way, I understand the want to ban these, but I think its hardly matchup based atm.

I honestly think the presence of gale wings is something very, very important because it prevents offense from overwhelming the meta. Imagine this meta without the limitations on offense. It becomes setup sweepers and wallbreakers spamming high powered attacks with next to no momentum lost because they can't be revenge killed. While priority spam is annoying, it limits offense to an extent that is almost healthy. Honestly, I don't see this metagame getting healthy if we ban these; it just becomes too easy for HO to spam mons without limitations. Protean, Shell Smash, Primo/deso, Adapt, etc. just become so ridiculously spammable its not even funny. If stall is a problem, spam Luc Terrakion and TC Haxorus. Yeah, no.

There are Pokemon immune to regular Espeed, and Pokemon like Terrakion and Aerodactyl can be offensive checks to regular Espeed. This isn't true with -atespeed running around and fast Steel types are basically the only thing that can stand a chance on an offensive team. The Protean sets with multiple priorities don't bother me because they aren't ridiculously high powered. Sucker Punch is a conditional 80 that leads to 50/50 scenarios, Fake Out is 40 base for the first turn only, Shadow Sneak is 40, etc. They don't have the raw power of firing off a guaranteed 80 damage STAB that has no immunities and few resists, but hits plenty of good typings for SE damage and always goes first.

Gale Wings is the same thing except slightly more manageable. While it might not have as much priority as Espeed it has more base power and these users can actually hold items like Band and aren't restricted to a free Life Orb boost. The unfortunate thing is that you're STILL forced to run fast Rock/Steel types if you don't want to be 6-0'd.

If banning this kind of strong priority means setup gets stronger, I honestly wouldn't mind. I'd rather at least have the option to pressure my opponent and not give them the chance to set up than to forfeit at the team preview because the opponent has an Altaria/Pinsir/Mence/Lando-T on their team. At least in one scenario I feel like I can come out on top with good play rather than warping my team around the idea that if half my Pokemon can't take a Banded Brave Bird from Landorus-T or FakeSpeed from Mega Pinsir then I can't compete at all.

I'm going to be honest; we have to ban things carefully. If we want to ban -atespeed, we need to be suspecting the megas, not the abilities or the combo (complex bans are baddd). The WORST one for offense to handle isn't glalie or pinsir; its Altaria because its so hard to revenge kill and hits SE vs about half of the mons on HO teams.

Gale wings probably shouldn't be banned, its not that hard to wall and is a good revenge killing option while being manageable for offense. It also keeps a limit on offense while not screwing teambuilding, and there are plenty of checks and revenge killing opportunities for offense to survive.

If we suspect the -atespeeds, we need to suspect the members, and ONE AT A TIME. i.e. suspect glalie, then pinsir, then alt. They are all radically different in their limitations of offense and stall and we need to address them separately.

Honestly for Terrakion there needs to be a mention of its Choice Banded Head Smash set. I run it on my sun team and it tears through anything not resembling two crossed swords.

Tyrantrum (Terrakion) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hey, that one vs Regirock isn't a guaranteed 2HKO!

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 168-200 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You do the math and figure out why Regirock can't switch in. The one true wall to this set is Doublade, so pack teammates with Knock Off.

I have quite a bit of experience with this set and I can tell you that adapt is generally more consistent. Sorry, its just the truth. Besides cresselia, there is nothing that this set does that adapt doesn't, and that is without a band; without band this set falls to cress anyways. with a band Adapt can beat cress with stone edge with Sr/Chip damage. This set is not a bad set, but tbh I think its a bit inferior to the Adapt set. It definitely has its merits, don't get me wrong. Also don't forget that Adapt has extremespeed to pick off weakened mons against offense; note its also a base 108 speed Extremespeed that hits as hard as jolly bandnite's, which is pretty strong.

Actually Lcass4919 explained it pretty well.

 

[Snaquaza]

Hey everyone, another update. I should post more besides those. Anyway first off, yoman5 and AnybodyAgrees have stepped down from the Inheritance council. We'd like to thank them for everything they did, but we'll move on. The current council is me, Adrian Marin, Kl4ng and Lcass4919 (Sounds like a BH council besides me, uh?).

Anyway, we're suspecting Gale Wings. Landorus-Therian has been suspected twice already, but it's seen as not broken. Now we've decided to suspect Gale Wings for the huge strain it puts on Offensive teams. There are too many strong abusers, and banning any would just cause them being replaced. Additionally, it can be argued that they make Flying Spam overpowered (Gale Wings + Aerilate), but that's something for you all to discuss during this suspect. Offensive teams are forced to put a resist on their team with decent defenses to even be able to check Gale Wings, as otherwise the only thing they can do is revenge kill them with faster Gale Wings, or Extreme Speed, or let it bring something down to extremely low health after you sacked, just to kill it. In general this makes it easy to spam it, and wearing down counters to it isn't too hard either. The need for Extreme Speed just adds to the priority game, causing this metagame to be priority filled, instead of being able to explore the many options there could be.

That's not all, Gale Wings get very strong moves. Namely Brave Bird and Flare Blitz. Brave Bird is an extremely spammable move on any physical Flying type, especially with priority. Flare Blitz is pretty good coverage against Steel types without Flash Fire. In general, Gale Wings Pokemon can even break through their counters at times due to their extremely strong Brave Bird after a little bit of residual damage, letting even Stallier teams have problems against it. Finally, you even get some good support moves. You get U-Turn to scout, Will-o-Wisp to wear down counters switching in, Swords Dance and Bulk Up for set-up sweeping and finally Roost for reliable recovery and the ability to stay healthy.

So what do you guys think, is this ability too good for this metagame? Why?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Gale wings huh... It's a difficult decision. On one hand we have a playstyle who has no trouble dealing with Gale wings spam, with both of the main moves being resisted by rock. On the other we have a playstyle who struggles immensely with Gale Wings spam. As I've mostly used a team who gives zero fucks about gale wings spam I don't really think I can say anything about it. It's incredibly difficult for Offense to take brave birds followed by flare blitz. I'll refrain from giving my decision for a little while, though I'd like the suspect to be finished before the month ends.

 

[Snaquaza]

Gale wings huh... It's a difficult decision. On one hand we have a playstyle who has no trouble dealing with Gale wings spam, with both of the main moves being resisted by rock. On the other we have a playstyle who struggles immensely with Gale Wings spam. As I've mostly used a team who gives zero fucks about gale wings spam I don't really think I can say anything about it. It's incredibly difficult for Offense to take brave birds followed by flare blitz. I'll refrain from giving my decision for a little while, though I'd like the suspect to be finished before the month ends.

Just a little comment, but this suspect won't be finished before the month ends. I'd like it to be, but honestly it's impossible. We'd have three days to finish this suspect, which is quite short and even if we manage to do that, it'd have to be implemented and the metagame wouldn't have time to adapt anyway. So, we're not going to hurry this suspect.

Anyway, while Stall doesn't have too much trouble with it, I can imagine stall liking not having to use a Rock type / Flash Fire Steel-type, but I can't be sure about that since I dont' really frequent stall. On offense though, most Steel, Electric and Rock types aren't bulky enough to switch into two banded Brave Birds after Rocks, which only allows them to revenge, and even then they have to sacrifice a huge chunk of their health.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Just a little comment, but this suspect won't be finished before the month ends. I'd like it to be, but honestly it's impossible. We'd have three days to finish this suspect, which is quite short and even if we manage to do that, it'd have to be implemented and the metagame wouldn't have time to adapt anyway. So, we're not going to hurry this suspect.

Anyway, while Stall doesn't have too much trouble with it, I can imagine stall liking not having to use a Rock type / Flash Fire Steel-type, but I can't be sure about that since I dont' really frequent stall. On offense though, most Steel, Electric and Rock types aren't bulky enough to switch into two banded Brave Birds after Rocks, which only allows them to revenge, and even then they have to sacrifice a huge chunk of their health.

Yeah, nothing to do there. Inheritance is such a popular metagame I doubt it'll take long for it to win again. Idk man, I've been using Regenerator Regirock on my team, not only does it stop all forms of Gale wings Talonflame but it also handles most physical attackers, regardless of super effective moves. It's not that much of a burden. Though I would enjoy opening it up a bit. Aerilate still exists.

Offense struggles so much with Gale wings spam, but it can also check it back. You can run mons like Glalie who easily revenge kills most Gale wings users, but that again is centralizing. If Gale wings DOES get banned It would make it easier to use mons like Mega Aggron to counter flying spam, as it gives little to no fucks about Earthquake.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Gale Wings this time huh. It's quite a difficult decision actually. Imo its kinda similar to suspecting Talonflame in OU, except this one is harder to stop. There will be very different opinions about this one.

As for Extremespeed, people WILL still spam it, no matter if Gale Wings is banned or not. The abusers are just too good to not use Extremespeed, especially Normal types and -ate Megas.

I personally lean to no ban side, because banning this won't stop the priority spam from -ate megas, Adaptability Normal types and Protean users. Just a suggestion, if you want to get a better idea of a meta better with it or not, make Gale Wingsless tours and ask for people's opinion for it.

 

[Ghoul King]

Gale Wings Suspect

I'm personally against banning Gale Wings. There are reliable hard-stops to literally every Talonflame inheritor out there that in no way are a negative to carry -they aren't just anti-Gale Wings, they're useful generally- while Gale Wings itself helps check a lot of crazy-powerful setup sweepers that are uncommon currently because there's a lot of good priority. (And even then, Sub-Shell Smash Mega Gyarados is still a thing, and quite the nasty thing) Extreme Speed helps check those, too, but demands either a Mega slot or a Normal type (Preferably inheriting from Mega Lucario) to be a strong counter/check to setup sweepers, making it considerably harder to fit smoothly into a team, even though it's arguably better at the job when you are running it. Other forms of priority exist, but they're weak and/or unreliable, and their overall utility is more narrow as a result, not to mention they tend to be harder to fit into a team.

It's also the case that any (good, actually threatening) Gale Wings choice is neutral to Stealth Rock at best, and usually vulnerable, while their primary attacks cause recoil damage. It's really easy to get a Gale Wings Pokemon low on health and then finish it off, or force it out while low on health and then get Stealth Rock up, or otherwise get it dead through indirect tools. If they're taking advantage of U-Turn, they're increasing this vulnerability.

My own experience trending toward Hyper Offense teams (and not running Gale Wings myself, actually) is that it's very manageable, and is usually predictable -I've only ever had trouble from Landorus-Therian and the occasional Salamence that I assumed were Gale Wings and were instead Protean, which isn't a commentary on Gale Wings itself.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I am personally against a GW ban. It keeps offense in check and is a reliable means of revenge killing, while not being unbeatable.

Counters to GW:
Regenerator/Unaware physically defensive Regirock with Ice Punch/Stone Edge
FF Doublade with WoW/Morning Sun/filler attack
FF Skarmory with WoW/Morning Sun/filler attack
Regen/Unaware physically defensive Rhyperior with Ice Punch/Stone Edge

Ways to revenge kill GW:
Never Melt Ice Weavile with Ice Shard
ESpeed Mega Glalie
ESpeed Mega Altaria (after a bit of prior damage, such as Fake Out for Lando-T, kills Mence)
ESpeed LO Adapt Ursaring (after a bit of prior damage to both, such as Fake Out)

These are all reliable ways of beating GW (note the RKers can't switch in, but win if they get a clean switch and can reliably force out the GW mon, racking up Rocks damage if you got them up which you should have). All are viable in inheritance too--there are probably plenty more gimmicky options, but these are just some off of the top of my head.

 

[Lcass4919]

I'm personally against banning Gale Wings. There are reliable hard-stops to literally every Talonflame inheritor out there that in no way are a negative to carry -they aren't just anti-Gale Wings, they're useful generally- while Gale Wings itself helps check a lot of crazy-powerful setup sweepers that are uncommon currently because there's a lot of good priority. (And even then, Sub-Shell Smash Mega Gyarados is still a thing, and quite the nasty thing) Extreme Speed helps check those, too, but demands either a Mega slot or a Normal type (Preferably inheriting from Mega Lucario) to be a strong counter/check to setup sweepers, making it considerably harder to fit smoothly into a team, even though it's arguably better at the job when you are running it. Other forms of priority exist, but they're weak and/or unreliable, and their overall utility is more narrow as a result, not to mention they tend to be harder to fit into a team.

It's also the case that any (good, actually threatening) Gale Wings choice is neutral to Stealth Rock at best, and usually vulnerable, while their primary attacks cause recoil damage. It's really easy to get a Gale Wings Pokemon low on health and then finish it off, or force it out while low on health and then get Stealth Rock up, or otherwise get it dead through indirect tools. If they're taking advantage of U-Turn, they're increasing this vulnerability.

My own experience trending toward Hyper Offense teams (and not running Gale Wings myself, actually) is that it's very manageable, and is usually predictable -I've only ever had trouble from Landorus-Therian and the occasional Salamence that I assumed were Gale Wings and were instead Protean, which isn't a commentary on Gale Wings itself.

im not going to try to attack your opinions or anything, but im just going to raise a few points on "another way of thinking" allthough its true gale wings has some hard stops... the problem is when these hard stops are forced onto offensive teams and are otherwise mediocre at best (dont get me wrong, we have some diamonds in the rough like doublade...but dont tell me levitate rhydon/diancie is viable outside of stopping gale wings.) the problem is offense has to force its team with gale wings in mind, and therefore it allows stall to better handle offense as a result(lmao yeah, go figure, an offensive ban is actually buffing offense) banded gale wings basically nets a kill ALL the time it switches in enless you pack a hard counter.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 139-164 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
it 2hkos a resisted type with 80/130 defenses given its not invested in them. so this means you pretty much REQUIRE to run a tank/espeeder to hope to manage it, and it basically picks off a pokemon every chance it switches in, given you dont run a tank to manage it. and dont get me started on its swords dance set lmao imo, for the sake of...priority? i say imo we restrict gale wings solely to talonbird.

 

[Ghoul King]

... what about Levitate is relevant to stopping Gale Wings? Gale Wings does not get Earthquake, or any lesser Ground move, barring Hidden Power.

I also don't see how saying you need to plan for Gale Wings is particularly meaningful. Mega Pinsir inheriting Extreme Speed accomplishes the same result, with more resistance to revenge killing (+1 priority? Meh, die), with superior coverage, and without killing itself with attacks. If you can't handle Gale Wings, you certainly can't handle Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir, and it's entirely possible you have no answers to Mega Altaria or Mega Glalie running Extreme Speed either.

Meanwhile banning Gale Wings causes offense to suffer because it must run Mega Pinsir (Or the mediocre Talonflame) if it wants a solid Flying-typed revenge killer, considerably restricting teambuilding (You want a different Mega but still want that powerful priority revenger? Run Talonflame or give up) without in any way reducing the need to plan for Flying type priority, because it's still out there in a superior form.

The logics given for banning Gale Wings make literally no sense without first banning Mega Pinsir, since Mega Pinsir creates the same pressure on any potential team, only more so, but restricts the ability to take advantage of the same to teams with an open Mega slot, meaning the meta gets all of the downside of keeping Gale Wings in play and none of the upside.

Nor are the hard stops to Gale Wings bad outside of this role. Unaware Regirock (What Swords Dance?) and Regenerator Regirock are both amazing for different roles, myriad Tyranitar sets don't care and are perfectly good in their own right, the ever-popular Flashfire Doublade is an all-around solid wall, Flashfire Skarmory is awesome, and the list goes on and on. Implementing a hard stop isn't even necessary, but the option is available and there are plenty of choices that get the job done while being excellent Pokemon all-around.

I'm also not seeing why you calced regular Metagross with no bulk. It's either going to be Mega Metagross or it's going to spec for bulk, because 70 is an awful Speed tier, and Mega Metagross has more Defense.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Suddenly, it's not a 2HKO.

 

[Lcass4919]

... what about Levitate is relevant to stopping Gale Wings? Gale Wings does not get Earthquake, or any lesser Ground move, barring Hidden Power.

well, if your specificly gearing a pokemon for gale wings, then obviously i rest my case. levitate is to deal with other potential sets one could run over gale wings. these sets are common, not something i made up for the sake of argument.

I also don't see how saying you need to plan for Gale Wings is particularly meaningful. Mega Pinsir inheriting Extreme Speed accomplishes the same result, with more resistance to revenge killing (+1 priority? Meh, die), with superior coverage, and without killing itself with attacks. If you can't handle Gale Wings, you certainly can't handle Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir, and it's entirely possible you have no answers to Mega Altaria or Mega Glalie running Extreme Speed either.

its because banded lando is stronger. and whos to say espeeders aren't getting this treatment themselves after? we just picked gale first.

Meanwhile banning Gale Wings causes offense to suffer because it must run Mega Pinsir (Or the mediocre Talonflame) if it wants a solid Flying-typed revenge killer, considerably restricting teambuilding (You want a different Mega but still want that powerful priority revenger? Run Talonflame or give up) without in any way reducing the need to plan for Flying type priority, because it's still out there in a superior form.

again, lando is stronger initially, and again, pinsir could be suspected next...

The logics given for banning Gale Wings make literally no sense without first banning Mega Pinsir, since Mega Pinsir creates the same pressure on any potential team, only more so, but restricts the ability to take advantage of the same to teams with an open Mega slot, meaning the meta gets all of the downside of keeping Gale Wings in play and none of the upside.

to be honest, i wanted to suspect all the priority users(inheriting from lucario added in) but the council wanted to instead pick on gale wings.

Nor are the hard stops to Gale Wings bad outside of this role. Unaware Regirock (What Swords Dance?) and Regenerator Regirock are both amazing for different roles, myriad Tyranitar sets don't care and are perfectly good in their own right, the ever-popular Flashfire Doublade is an all-around solid wall, Flashfire Skarmory is awesome, and the list goes on and on. Implementing a hard stop isn't even necessary, but the option is available and there are plenty of choices that get the job done while being excellent Pokemon all-around.

yes...but other then regen regirock, all of those mentioned should NOT be seen on an offensive team. they are serious momentum killers. my point still stands. note the difference between offense, and bulky offense.

I'm also not seeing why you calced regular Metagross with no bulk. It's either going to be Mega Metagross or it's going to spec for bulk, because 70 is an awful Speed tier, and Mega Metagross has more Defense.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 123-145 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Suddenly, it's not a 2HKO.

my apologies, i was implying the scarf serene grace set when i made that calc, and even then i was more showing that "resisted 80/130 bulk on offensive pokemon cant tank this hit" i didnt imply "metagross is rekt banpls" i was showing landos raw power versus offensive teams without walls. plus the fact that even mega meta, a 145 def monster that tanks super effective onslaughts, doesnt appriciate a RESISTED HIT helps in showing my point. (obviously we are both ignoring flare blitz for the sake of argument)

 

[Ghoul King]

well, if your specificly gearing a pokemon for gale wings, then obviously i rest my case. levitate is to deal with other potential sets one could run over gale wings. these sets are common, not something i made up for the sake of argument.

My issue with this response is that it directly implies that those sets have larger validity, which hurts the claim that Gale Wings hard stops are automatically hampering your team's broader viability to implement.

its because banded lando is stronger. and whos to say espeeders aren't getting this treatment themselves after? we just picked gale first.

Banded Landorus-Therian isn't stronger than Swords Dance Mega Pinsir, and will inevitably kill itself in the process of attacking, restricting its value considerably. I honestly don't get why it's so popular -anytime anything goes wrong it's serious deadweight, and "anything going wrong" is easy to engineer.

My point about Mega Pinsir is that the logic presented does not justify the order being gone in. If the problems with Gale Wings are as described, then the council should have gone after Mega Pinsir first or at the same time, as it provides all the same issues with distorting the metagame, only with less in the way of healthy benefits. Even if the council is intending to come after Extreme Speeders later, that makes little sense as Mega Pinsir should have been addressed first by the presented logic, and no other logic has been presented -other than the vague "Banded Landorus-Therian hits harder"- for why Gale Wings should be addressed first, rather than second.

yes...but other then regen regirock, all of those mentioned should NOT be seen on an offensive team. they are serious momentum killers. my point still stands. note the difference between offense, and bulky offense.

I honestly don't know if you're talking about Hyper Offense, Balance, or some third category that gets called "offense" that I've never seen defined. I dislike the term "offense" because it's very vague and able to encompass multiple possibilities that are distinct and different, and this shows exactly why: I honestly have no idea what you actually intend here.

my apologies, i was implying the scarf serene grace set when i made that calc, and even then i was more showing that "resisted 80/130 bulk on offensive pokemon cant tank this hit" i didnt imply "metagross is rekt banpls" i was showing landos raw power versus offensive teams without walls. plus the fact that even mega meta, a 145 def monster that tanks super effective onslaughts, doesnt appriciate a RESISTED HIT helps in showing my point. (obviously we are both ignoring flare blitz for the sake of argument)

I'm not so much ignoring Flare Blitz as assuming either good prediction or Flashfire... or possibly Primordial Sea. You'd be surprised how solid Kyogre's Physical movepool is!

I'm also not really seeing your point. If we're talking Hyper Offense here, Hyper Offense doesn't really care about taking a lot of damage, so long as it survives long enough to rip holes in the enemy back. If we're talking balance, where Metagross is either running a set that provides recovery, or has Wish support, or would never come out on Landorus-Therian unless it was expecting to be maneuvering into a winning position anyway, then successfully switching into a Banded set's predicted Brave Bird and it being a 3HKO is plenty of room to maneuver, barring a crit. If we're talking some other non-stall playstyle, I'm not familiar with it and have never heard of it, and you're going to need to be more detailed.