np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Martin]

Re-quoting something I posted earlier as a more eye-friendly alternative to the image above that uses Bisharp and Starmie>Chomper and Diancie/Talonflame and Aegi.

Generally speaking, turns in a match aren't 50:50 scenarios. There are typically more than two outcomes. For example, you both sides have 5 'mons left, and you have a healthy bisharp on the field v.s. your opponent's healthy 4-attacks starmie. The best play here will be to use Sucker Punch as it means you are guaranteed to not lose your Bisharp. This is not a 50:50 as you are simply making the safest play you can as opposed to whichever player who makes the wrong move being severely set back by it.

Take a similar situation (1 HP Bisharp v.s. healthy 4-attacks Starmie), but this time make it a 2v2 situation (you have Bisharp and 1 HP Landorus-I, your opponent has Starmie and 4 attacks Zard X). In this situation, it is a 50:50 because whoever makes the correct play wins the match. Here are the possible scenarios here:

• Bisharp uses Sucker Punch and Starmie stays in. Starmie faints, you can sacrifice your Bisharp to the Charizard (dealing Sucker Punch damage as you go down) and Landorus wins the match.
• Bisharp uses Pursuit and Starmie switches. Starmie faints, you can sacrifice your Bisharp to the Charizard (dealing Sucker Punch damage as you go down) and Landorus wins the match.
• Bisharp uses Sucker Punch and Starmie switches. Zard X KOs Bisharp (as you can't switch in Lando for obvious reasons), Landorus kills Zard X, Starmie wins the game with the Rapid Spin KO on Landorus ('cause 100% accurate).
• Bisharp uses Pursuit and Starmie stays in. Bisharp faints to Rapid Spin ('cause 100% accurate), Starmie wins the match with the rapid spin KO on Landorus.

So there are two outcomes: Bisharp's team wins or Starmie's team wins. This is a 50:50.

Aegislash can be compared to the second scenario.

edit:

alright, i got my reqs after about 50 battles, and i must say i honestly prefer this metagame than the non-aegi one. i know aegislash is really broken and i think the optimal solution would be banning altaria/gross/lando-i, while keeping aegi banned, but if that's impossible, i'd rather unban aegi, and will explain in this post why i think the aegislash metagame is better than the current metagame.

IDK why you are voting to unban it if you feel that banning the S ranks would be a better solution. Isn't that just contradicting yourself?

one of the arguments used to ban the sword was that it restrained teambuilding, right? well i think teambuilding is made easier with aegi. if you slap it onto your team, you're shielding it from altaria, gross, garde, diancie, gallade, thundurus (a bit), zam, lati@s, clefable, jirachi, and a whole lot of A/S rank threats (which is arguably impossible to do in the non-aegi meta), so basically aegi counter + aegi leaves up 4 slots for you to be creative with the rest of the team.

Yeah. It makes it easier by giving you 5 mons+Aegi if you don't want to be at a significant disadvantage. Also, the sheer fact that Aegi alone can cover that many pokemon in one teamslot is instantly unhealthy.

as for the argument that aegi kills innovation and makes the metagame stale, i think it is kinda flawed, because while aegi does indeed kill stuff like medicham/celebi/rachi, it also makes stuff like diggersby/volcarona/hydreigon really good. you can run a really standard team with aegi/zard-y/hippo/keld/latios and be safe against A rank threats, but i can choose to be innovative, run zygarde and proceed to sweep you. and zygarde is a really flawed mon, ranked at C-, so it's not like i'm not purposedly taking a huge risk in running it; unlike in the current metagame, where cenarios like "oh i've covered every A rank threat besides zard-y, better hope he doesnt bring it xd" happen every day.

See above response. Also, really, the fact that you are trading every Psychic-type and HJK user bar M-Lopunny for Diggersby, Volc and Hydra - of which the former two are already v. good and should be A- rank if they are not that high already and the latter of which is still very solid in the non-aegi meta - makes literally zero sense. Also, it does kill innovation as it makes literally half of the current OU tier either flat-out inviable or significantly lower than they are atm, while amplifying what is currently the most overpowered 'mon in the metagame (Lando-I) due to effectively letting it in to score a free KO v.s. anything not called Mega Latias or, worse still, set up a Rock Polish all over your face - in which case Mega Latias becomes a shaky check due to rash/modest nature.

it makes the metagame overcentralized, not gonna lie. but would you rather have a metagame centralized around 15 threats or 40? plus stuff like snorlax in gsc, tauros in rby, etc are much more overcentralizing and you never seem someone complaining or saying those metas are bad because of it.

GSC Snorlax and RBY Tauros were overcentralising because they were flat out broken in said metagames but kept simply due to there being practically no pokemon to choose from in the first place. Aegislash is overcentralising because it makes an insane percentage of the metagame inviable or barely usable while allowing you to check a vast number of major threats in one teamslot - not because it is overpowered/broken - and that is what argubly makes the overcentralisation factor of Aegislash a ton worse than the brokenness of GSC Snorlax and RBY Tauros simply due to there being options to replace it that make teambuilding a process of trial and error as opposed to "My team is weak to a load of stuff... time to fix that: Aegislash! I choose you!"

 

[Baharoth]

alright, i got my reqs after about 50 battles, and i must say i honestly prefer this metagame than the non-aegi one. i know aegislash is really broken and i think the optimal solution would be banning altaria/gross/lando-i, while keeping aegi banned, but if that's impossible, i'd rather unban aegi, and will explain in this post why i think the aegislash metagame is better than the current metagame.

one of the arguments used to ban the sword was that it restrained teambuilding, right? well i think teambuilding is made easier with aegi. if you slap it onto your team, you're shielding it from altaria, gross, garde, diancie, gallade, thundurus (a bit), zam, lati@s, clefable, jirachi, and a whole lot of A/S rank threats (which is arguably impossible to do in the non-aegi meta), so basically aegi counter + aegi leaves up 4 slots for you to be creative with the rest of the team.

as for the argument that aegi kills innovation and makes the metagame stale, i think it is kinda flawed, because while aegi does indeed kill stuff like medicham/celebi/rachi, it also makes stuff like diggersby/volcarona/hydreigon really good. you can run a really standard team with aegi/zard-y/hippo/keld/latios and be safe against A rank threats, but i can choose to be innovative, run zygarde and proceed to sweep you. and zygarde is a really flawed mon, ranked at C-, so it's not like i'm not purposedly taking a huge risk in running it; unlike in the current metagame, where cenarios like "oh i've covered every A rank threat besides zard-y, better hope he doesnt bring it xd" happen every day.

it makes the metagame overcentralized, not gonna lie. but would you rather have a metagame centralized around 15 threats or 40? plus stuff like snorlax in gsc, tauros in rby, etc are much more overcentralizing and you never seem someone complaining or saying those metas are bad because of it.

Its worth mentioning that Jirachi (and if you wanna be a Hipster AV Metagross) do exactly the same in a meta without Aegi. They don't have the offensive power but in return Jirachi provides lots of utility with SR/HW/U-Turn while checking all that stuff almost as well as Aegi does.


Oh and its not the choice between 15 and 40. More like 3 and 40. Because pretty much the only things you will commonly see in an Aegi meta are Lopunny, Lando-I and Aegi. And in that case i prefer the 40. Yeah you have to use your brain while teambuilding to get a good one but why not?

 

[pika pal]

it makes the metagame overcentralized, not gonna lie. but would you rather have a metagame centralized around 15 threats or 40? plus stuff like snorlax in gsc, tauros in rby, etc are much more overcentralizing and you never seem someone complaining or saying those metas are bad because of it.

I disagree with this sentiment for a few reasons:

1. The GSC metagame is only arguably the best metagame for those who value in battle performance over teambuilding skill. Part of what made Snorlax an overcentralizing threat was just the fact that there weren't the tools that could stop his traits, despite the fact that there were logical ways to stop him. For example, powerful physical Fighting attackers, Phazers and the now existent-Taunt users could put a typical Curselax to a stop (hence why it fell out of use in later gens), but there weren't a particularly good deal of those in Gen 2 due to factors like the Physical/Special mechanics and just poor distribution (hell, Skarmory entire niche came from being able to check Snorlax and lay spikes). Aegislash in the current metagame is can in theory be stopped, but it's too easy to play around for the Aegislash user compared to the opponent because of the sheer number of options it had. Snorlax was a tank in a Metagame without artillery or trenches, linear and but overly effective in that one job. Aegislash is just a swiss army knife with too many accessories, jack of all trades, proficient at all.

2. RBY was just mechanically unbalanced because the games were clearly in early installment weirdness. There was an extreme biased towards Special attackers mechanically because the single stat made threats both hard hitting and bulkier in one compared to the two stat Physical spectrum. Tauros benefitted as well because it put his special stat at a usable range, in an era where it was unlikely to be good on one side without being horrible on the other. It clearly took a hit the second the Special Split happened.

3. RBY and GSC may have had more broken and overcentralizing threats, but they're not current. Just because we've moved on since those metagames for the most part doesn't mean we consider their "final" ruleset balanced or healthy. While not to the same degree, how many people would say the Gen 5 meta was completely fine and healthy when we transitioned to Gen 6? The old metagames being broken may just mean we ran out of time to try and fine tune them before the next big franchise shift happened. We are currently in Gen 6, so we're testing if Aegislash is good or bad for Gen 6. I imagine the main reason you've heard so little complaints of those Metas might just be because they have a significantly smaller dedicated playerbase compared to the current metagame on which the Staff and most of the forum is focusing.

4. I just feel like this is a comparison fallacy. Breaking my arm is worse than breaking my finger, but does that mean breaking my finger is something I should tolerate just because I've had worse in the broken arm? No. Having a worse case does not make the lesser detriment acceptable in its own right. The only case where I'd ever say such a comparison holds water is when the compared options are the only options, but I highly doubt our options are either playing an Aegis meta or playing a Snorlax GSC meta.

 

[Chillarmy]

gamer boy, radianthero's point was Aegis being a shortcut to a "balanced" metagame. Suspecting most, if not all of the ton mons creates too many unnecessary ripples in OU, which will take way too much time to settle (not to mention that we still have to prepare for and adapt to more potential metagame changes coming from future Gen VI games).

Also, I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but Aegis doesn't invalidate the Psychics / HJK users that matter. Slowbro / Slowking still stand strong with their respective niches; Voir has to be played more carefully; smart Gallades aren't aggressive with SD; Celebi can still CM / NastyPass and run defensive sets to good effect; Rachi, from my experiences at least, hasn't become a liability in this matter, either. As far as HJKers go, there's only like Mega Lopunny, Medicham (which performed well in XY Aegis meta), and Mienshao (which has Knock Off and Regen).

 

[pika pal]

gamer boy, radianthero's point was Aegis being a shortcut to a "balanced" metagame. Suspecting most, if not all of the ton mons creates too many unnecessary ripples in OU, which will take way too much time to settle (not to mention that we still have to prepare for and adapt to more potential metagame changes coming from future Gen VI games).

Also, I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but Aegis doesn't invalidate the Psychics / HJK users that matter. Slowbro / Slowking still stand strong with their respective niches; Voir has to be played more carefully; smart Gallades aren't aggressive with SD; Celebi can still CM / NastyPass and run defensive sets to good effect; Rachi, from my experiences at least, hasn't become a liability in this matter, either. As far as HJKers go, there's only like Mega Lopunny, Medicham (which performed well in XY Aegis meta), and Mienshao (which has Knock Off and Regen).

I'm sorry, what? Medicham, despite the fact that Huge Power Base 100 Attack should've made it an absurd wallbreaker, was BL and borderline unseen during the Aegislash metagame because besides just blocking HJK, Aegislash didn't care about anything else it tried to do either. A wallbreaker that can't breaker the most prominent defensive/pivot Pokemon in the tier is significantly less viable.

And the problem isn't Aegislash just stopping these mons from performing their niches, but the fact that he does enough of their role like defensive synergy that their own difference doesn't make them worth the liability.

Why use Jirachi as my utility and Gardevoir check if Aegislash checks her better and has more variety? Why use Slowbro/Slowking as my Fighting/Mega Meta check when Aegislash also checks those and has more threatening offensive presence? And besides those, these Pokemon give free turns to Aegislash very often, a Mon that is tricky to play around AFTER being scouted.

And Mega Lopunny didn't get worse true. The problem is that Aegislash deals with/quashes usage of so many of her checks that she's almost ludicrously effective in the current Metagame. The issue isn't just that Aegislash makes a lot of stuff worse, but that he's making the wrong things worse and the wrong things better. The Metagame did not need to give such a partner that made Landorus-I or Lopunny better: if anything, these were among the things (alongside Metagross, Altaria, and Diancie) that we were trying to take down a notch. If Aegislash fails that purpose, then the collateral damage he brings to the other mons' losing viability is not just excessive, it's outright pointless.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

I'm sorry, what? Medicham, despite the fact that Huge Power Base 100 Attack should've made it an absurd wallbreaker, was BL and borderline unseen during the Aegislash metagame because besides just blocking HJK, Aegislash didn't care about anything else it tried to do either. A wallbreaker that can't breaker the most prominent defensive/pivot Pokemon in the tier is significantly less viable.

It's BL and unseen now without aegislash anyway. Even gallade is being discussed in the UU discussion threads as a potential drop. I don't really see how medicham's viability and usage statistics will differ with aegi than without when without it already isn't the best thing to be running in the metagame with metagross, lopunny, and altaria being much superior choices overall. Realistically the only mega evolution people really want to be running in the current meta is metagross and a few notable fairies.. any other megas either have crippling flaws, need team support, or come with the opportunity cost of not running said metagross. We could suspect metagross, but we already did and the playerbase decided they wanted a centralized metagross meta to check potentially broken fairies. Aegislash might break up this opportunity cost of using a mega not named gross, and even if the likes of lopunny and lando get crazy, we can suspect those too. The only other core that'd be problematic is pursuit aegi and zard y, but that can still be worked around with hazards.

 

[pika pal]

It's BL and unseen now without aegislash anyway. Even gallade is being discussed in the UU discussion threads as a potential drop. I don't really see how medicham's viability and usage statistics will differ with aegi than without when without it already isn't the best thing to be running in the metagame with metagross, lopunny, and altaria being much superior choices overall.

My point was not whether or not Medicham is used now and wouldn't be used later.

I was correcting the incorrect statement that Medicham performed well in the Aegislash Meta, which, whether it does well in the non-Aegi, it sure as hell DID NOT perform well in the Aegi XY era.

And why not discuss what is probably the bigger crux of my argument: Aegislash is being brought down to check the huge threats and is failing to do so, meaning there's NO REASON to let him tank the other mons' viability if he's not improving the Metagame properly anyway?

Note: The following comparison is for context. I do not support the concept of unbanning as a balancing tool, nor the hypothetical unban in question
Imagine we suggested unbanning Mega Lucario in a Stall heavy Metagame because we needed a wallbreaker that stopped these ridiculous defensive cores. Now imagine Lucario actually doesn't break these defensive cores on Stall, but presents the same issues he did before to Balance and offense. What would be the point if Lucario makes the metagame worse in some aspects and fails to improve it in the manner he was unbanned for?

If Aegislash is being suspected as a Blanket Check, and he fails to actually blanket checks the biggest problems, then I'd say the test fails since Aegislash does not create a healthier meta by the definition of the test (ergo, a Metagame in which the threats rampaging in the tier are made less OP by Aegislash).

And as I've repeated many times before, Unbanning tests should be a SIGN of a balanced metagame, not a tool to reach that. If the Metagame has threats problematic enough that we're testing something that was considered unhealthy enough to be banned when he beat fewer things, then bringing Aegislash down means we're trying to check broken things (whether or not Aegislash himself is broken).

- If Aegislash is not broken, I remind everyone of the criteria that having checks doesn't automatically make a mon not-broken in the tier. Adding one check in the form of Aegislash, no matter how potent, does not change the fact that these things are still ridiculous threats in their own right against the other 39 mons they already gave trouble to.

- If Aegislash is broken, see the policy on the "broken checking broken" policy.

- If the mons being checked are not broken, do they really warrant changing the metagame as radically as Aegis' presence would inevitably do?

- If they are broken SUSPECT THEM instead of trying to bring something down to check them and risking the broken-checks-broken accusations.

 

[Martin]

gamer boy, radianthero's point was Aegis being a shortcut to a "balanced" metagame. Suspecting most, if not all of the ton mons creates too many unnecessary ripples in OU, which will take way too much time to settle (not to mention that we still have to prepare for and adapt to more potential metagame changes coming from future Gen VI games).

A shortcut? To a "balanced" metagame? "Balanced" isn't a good way to put it - even with the speech marks. Aegislash does the opposite to balancing the metagame as it is now. It brings a large power creep, a large defensive/supportive creep, heavy overcentralisation and massive invalidation/reduced viability of a large number of Pokemon right across the viability rankings (more on this in a minute).

Also, I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but Aegis doesn't invalidate the Psychics / HJK users that matter. Slowbro / Slowking still stand strong with their respective niches; Voir has to be played more carefully; smart Gallades aren't aggressive with SD; Celebi can still CM / NastyPass and run defensive sets to good effect; Rachi, from my experiences at least, hasn't become a liability in this matter, either. As far as HJKers go, there's only like Mega Lopunny, Medicham (which performed well in XY Aegis meta), and Mienshao (which has Knock Off and Regen).

Lets see... Slowbro/Slowking take significant hit due to the fact that Aegislash can force them both out with ease and reduce the number of pokemon needed to reliably handle them and seriously, Gardevoir needing to be played more carefully is an understatement, and it forces it to run the otherwise filler Shadow Ball as one of its main moves, Gallade isn't very good as-is, Celebi was completely invalidated by Aegislash, and the only reason it moved up was because of Aegislash, Jirachi is in the same boat as Celibi (as well as being directly outclassed by Aegislash), the sole reason Medicham moved to OU in XY was because of Aegislash's ban (much like Celibi and Rachi) and lol I can't believe you said Mienshao as if it wasn't unusable outside of very select teams without even needing to consider Aegislash; Mien is currently D, and it was inviable before Aegi's ban as Regen really wasn't an excuse to be hard walled by the most overcentralising 'mon in the game, as well as only having one measly use of its Aegi coverage of which it needs to catch it on the switch. As for Lopunny, Scrappy is a double-edged sword for it as it means that it is only able to reliably deal with non-KS variants and unable to play around KS variants after mega evolving due to it being unable to play around KS with Return.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

Note: The following comparison is for context. I do not support the concept of unbanning as a balancing tool, nor the hypothetical unban in question
Imagine we suggested unbanning Mega Lucario in a Stall heavy Metagame because we needed a wallbreaker that stopped these ridiculous defensive cores. Now imagine Lucario actually doesn't break these defensive cores on Stall, but presents the same issues he did before to Balance and offense. What would be the point if Lucario makes the metagame worse in some aspects and fails to improve it in the manner he was unbanned for?

That isn't really a good comparison because lucario was flat out a broken sweeper that destroyed all teams and playstyles. One sword's dance and it was potentially a 6-0 since nothing could stomach base 145 STAB Adaptability base 125 close combat or bullet punch for the very few things that outsped him. This was a broken pokemon just being broken, nothing influential to the tier itself other than the viability of certain megas taking up the mega slot which lucario would use up instead.

- If they are broken SUSPECT THEM instead of trying to bring something down to check them and risking the broken-checks-broken accusations.

Again, we already suspected metagross and the playbase favored the metagross centralized metagame by a decent majority. (not by 1-3 votes that changed last minute like aegi) IIRC the primary argument for keeping metagross was to keep fairies undercontrol (sound familiar?). If altaria is broken, we can't really ban it because it's presence isn't as much of an impact and metagross still checks it, and if it's banned than there is no reason to keep metagross OU. (broken checking broken) Landorus-I is the only suspect worthy pokemon still in the OU tier currently, and it will most likely be tested whether or not aegislash is introduced (excuse myself ignoring the forbidden discussion of future test).

If metagross was retested, then this whole aegislash test would be pointless... but it isn't, and metagross is still here and will probably always will be.

 

[AM]

Keep the focus on Aegislash suspect, not former suspects and or potential future suspects.

 

[radianthero156]

IDK why you are voting to unban it if you feel that banning the S ranks would be a better solution. Isn't that just contradicting yourself?

huh? my point isn't "ban S rank threats and the meta becomes better", rather, it is: metagame without aegi/altaria/gross/lando-i > metagame with aegi/altaria/gross/lando-i > metagame without aegi but with altaria/gross/lando-i.

Yeah. It makes it easier by giving you 5 mons+Aegi if you don't want to be at a significant disadvantage. Also, the sheer fact that Aegi alone can cover that many pokemon in one teamslot is instantly unhealthy.

and what's the matter? i think everyone can agree the same happens to rby tauros and gsc snorlax, as not running them is an even more significant disadvantage. they had 88% and 98% usage respectively in those tiers in spl. and covering an insane amount of pokemon ins't that unhealthy tbh, see porygon2 which counters like 80% of UU and yet isn't even A+ rank.

See above response. Also, really, the fact that you are trading every Psychic-type and HJK user bar M-Lopunny for Diggersby, Volc and Hydra - of which the former two are already v. good and should be A- rank if they are not that high already and the latter of which is still very solid in the non-aegi meta - makes literally zero sense.

aegi's presence in the tier doesn't really nullify the use of psychic/hjk users, it just prevents them from being abused as freely. the dominance of ttar and rachi in BW doesn't make latios unviable, and the dominance of keldeo in oras doesn't make ttar unviable, etc. bpass medicham + landorus-i is very viable in the aegi meta, for instance. cresselia remains a solid lando-i answer regardless of aegi existing, celebi is still a good keldeo-countering twave/sr/hwish/bpass/etc user, and the list goes on.

Also, it does kill innovation as it makes literally half of the current OU tier either flat-out inviable or significantly lower than they are atm, while amplifying what is currently the most overpowered 'mon in the metagame (Lando-I) due to effectively letting it in to score a free KO v.s. anything not called Mega Latias or, worse still, set up a Rock Polish all over your face - in which case Mega Latias becomes a shaky check due to rash/modest nature.

how is it killing innovation by punishing the use of OverUsed pokemon? "omg i wanna innovate with my mega diancie but aegi wont let me :(!"? and yeah, while aegi seems it'll make lando-i even more broken, what will happen is the exact opposite: the sand genie will become a balanced mon. every smart aegi user, knowing that he'll be griving free turns to a massive threat, will have 1-2 very hard landorus counters, which will greatly diminish its effectiveness, while in the non-aegi meta some teams simply cant afford to run lando-i counters and just get boned.

GSC Snorlax and RBY Tauros were overcentralising because they were flat out broken in said metagames but kept simply due to there being practically no pokemon to choose from in the first place. Aegislash is overcentralising because it makes an insane percentage of the metagame inviable or barely usable while allowing you to check a vast number of major threats in one teamslot - not because it is overpowered/broken - and that is what argubly makes the overcentralisation factor of Aegislash a ton worse than the brokenness of GSC Snorlax and RBY Tauros simply due to there being options to replace it that make teambuilding a process of trial and error as opposed to "My team is weak to a load of stuff... time to fix that: Aegislash! I choose you!"

well my knowledge of rby/gsc is really limited, so i cant really debate on whether they were broken or not, though if they were really that broken im sure we'd ssee experienced players trying to ban them. but i'm pretty sure aegi's problem isn't checking 12830 threats, it's due to the fact it has crazy offensive/defensive stats, an amazing movepool, and spams an unresisted stab move from 438 sp.atk.

as for the guy saying jirachi the threats i mentioned, i recommend actually playing the game more. wisp from garde makes jira useless, metagross isnt damaged effectively by it and eq 2hkos, thundurus resists iron head and cant be para'd, hera/medi/gallade 2hko or ohko with fighting moves, zam does huge dmg with shadow ball, and sub toxic rachi beats other rachis one on one.

edit: what do you mean by "medicham wasnt good in xy aegi meta"? Medicham straight up won against the common stall core (skarm chans venu tran quag fable). It was great on tours, it was just risky to use because of aegis but it was still good. same w/ hera.

edit 2 @ below: it depends on your definition of a good metagame. i prefer one where battles are decided mostly on plays and creativity, instead of one where battles are decided on blind matchup luck

 

[killerjays]

@radianthero156

If the aegi metagame is better. Wouldn't you think that if every team had aegi to counter all "40" threats that it is considered over-centralizing??

1 aegislash on every team? Is that the answer to a good metagame?? I don't think so.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

alright, i got my reqs after about 50 battles, and i must say i honestly prefer this metagame than the non-aegi one. i know aegislash is really broken and i think the optimal solution would be banning altaria/gross/lando-i, while keeping aegi banned, but if that's impossible, i'd rather unban aegi, and will explain in this post why i think the aegislash metagame is better than the current metagame.

one of the arguments used to ban the sword was that it restrained teambuilding, right? well i think teambuilding is made easier with aegi. if you slap it onto your team, you're shielding it from altaria, gross, garde, diancie, gallade, thundurus (a bit), zam, lati@s, clefable, jirachi, and a whole lot of A/S rank threats (which is arguably impossible to do in the non-aegi meta), so basically aegi counter + aegi leaves up 4 slots for you to be creative with the rest of the team.

as for the argument that aegi kills innovation and makes the metagame stale, i think it is kinda flawed, because while aegi does indeed kill stuff like medicham/celebi/rachi, it also makes stuff like diggersby/volcarona/hydreigon really good. you can run a really standard team with aegi/zard-y/hippo/keld/latios and be safe against A rank threats, but i can choose to be innovative, run zygarde and proceed to sweep you. and zygarde is a really flawed mon, ranked at C-, so it's not like i'm not purposedly taking a huge risk in running it; unlike in the current metagame, where cenarios like "oh i've covered every A rank threat besides zard-y, better hope he doesnt bring it xd" happen every day.

it makes the metagame overcentralized, not gonna lie. but would you rather have a metagame centralized around 15 threats or 40? plus stuff like snorlax in gsc, tauros in rby, etc are much more overcentralizing and you never see anyone complaining or saying those metas are bad because of it.

My problem with this post is that the basis of your argument is checking broken mons with more broken mons which is not a balanced meta. Aegi makes almost every turn a 50/50 and even without that can blanket check a hug portion of the meta. Also if I have to run aegi and aegi counter that in itself is a huge restraint on building especially when aegi counters are like 2-3 mons. Overall I would agree that other mons in the OU tier need a suspect however in the particular case of aegi we must vote on how aegi affects the tier and frankly it makes the tier much less innovative and skill based.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I've been playing the ladder for a while now, and I must say. I really, really enjoy it. I've been able to use some underrated set, I like how the team looks and I'm able to use more diverse pokemon as Aegislash does a nice job of checking some of the biggest threats. I think Aegislash looks worse on paper than it does in practice and I haven't experienced an issue this meta.

 

[radianthero156]

My problem with this post is that the basis of your argument is checking broken mons with more broken mons which is not a balanced meta. Aegi makes almost every turn a 50/50 and even without that can blanket check a hug portion of the meta. Also if I have to run aegi and aegi counter that in itself is a huge restraint on building especially when aegi counters are like 2-3 mons. Overall I would agree that other mons in the OU tier need a suspect however in the particular case of aegi we must vote on how aegi affects the tier and frankly it makes the tier much less innovative and skill based.

"broken checking broken doess not make for a balanced metagame" is a fair argument i have to accept, but what is the definition of broken? imo altaria/gross are incredibly broken, more so than aegi. however, the community already deemed gross not broken, and altaria is arguably not more broken than meta. that means they wont be banned any soon (if ever).

a metagame where "broken checks broken" isnt balanced, but it's much more balanced than one where "nothing checks broken", which is the non-aegi meta. if you disagree with this is because you think altaria/gross arent broken, which is an understandable point of view. however, if altaria/gross arent broken, i can also argue aegi is less broken than then!

 

[Thisbemyalt]

"broken checking broken doess not make for a balanced metagame" is a fair argument i have to accept, but what is the definition of broken? imo altaria/gross are incredibly broken, more so than aegi. however, the community already deemed gross not broken, and altaria is arguably not more broken than meta. that means they wont be banned any soon (if ever).

a metagame where "broken checks broken" isnt balanced, but it's much more balanced than one where "nothing checks broken", which is the non-aegi meta. if you disagree with this is because you think altaria/gross arent broken, which is an understandable point of view. however, if altaria/gross arent broken, i can also argue aegi is less broken than then!

As I stated I fully agree that there are mons that are more broken than aegi and need a suspect or should have been banned however aegi's placement into the tier only means we have to remove more mons to reach a desired meta. I understand your concern with unchecked threats and it seems to be quite a matter of opinion on whether or not its better to add aegi to check these threats or to ban it to help on the way to making an actually balanced meta, it seems as though our opinions just so happen to be different on the matter.

 

[Martin]

and what's the matter? i think everyone can agree the same happens to rby tauros and gsc snorlax, as not running them is an even more significant disadvantage. they had 88% and 98% usage respectively in those tiers in spl. and covering an insane amount of pokemon ins't that unhealthy tbh, see porygon2 which counters like 80% of UU and yet isn't even A+ rank.

TBH, the reason that they see 88/98% usage respectively is because of the fact that there is nothing to replace them. The fact that they are broken in the tiers, while part of the reason for their usage, is not the full situation. They are splashable, much like Aegi, they are broken, half like Aegi (IMO broken is the wrong word to describe Aegi, but it isn't terrible - but I digress), and nothing can really fill their roles effectively without them due to a range of unique traits that set them above all of the psuedo-Tauros and psuedo Snorlax, completely unlike Aegi. Aegi is a highly replacable 'mon due to there being 700+ pokemon now, as opposed to 150 and 250, respectively, and many of them fill similar roles to one another, unlike gens 1 and 2. This has been helped somewhat by the physical/special split that happened in gen 4, which is another reason that there is nothing which can effectively replace them on a team in gens 1/2 (i.e. when normal was a v. good type itself) as their very unique stat spread and movepool in conjunction with the old mechanics meant that there wasn't really anything that acted as a substitute for them (unlike the current meta, where things like Jirachi can fill a similar role to Aegi but in a more balanced way).

aegi's presence in the tier doesn't really nullify the use of psychic/hjk users, it just prevents them from being abused as freely. the dominance of ttar and rachi in BW doesn't make latios unviable, and the dominance of keldeo in oras doesn't make ttar unviable, etc. bpass medicham + landorus-i is very viable in the aegi meta, for instance. cresselia remains a solid lando-i answer regardless of aegi existing, celebi is still a good keldeo-countering twave/sr/hwish/bpass/etc user, and the list goes on.

They are far easier to cover though. The fact that, if a psychic-type/HJK user lacks EQ, they are instantly at a disadvantage v.s. any team that has an Aegi, as well as the fact that HJK is suicidal against Aegislash and its omnipresence making it a liability more than its purpose (a nuke). In BW, T-Tar and Rachi were omnipresent. However, they were easily countered without the need for mindgames or taking an insane hit on the switch. Aegi, on the other hand, needs to be hit on the switch if you want to hit it reliably with Knock Off, needs to be played around if you want to hit it with things like Flare Blitz (and Scrappy HJK, which does more than just lower your attack v.s. KS) or needs to be dealt with using EQ - which is usually either not the optimal option for the user (e.g. M-Pinsir, M-Zard X, M-Heracross etc.) or is blatantly obvious (Garchomp, Landorus-I etc.) - or a special move, which is, once again, usually blatantly obvious (I see you there MixApe - RIP Flare Blitz variants w/ Aegi).

how is it killing innovation by punishing the use of OverUsed pokemon? "omg i wanna innovate with my mega diancie but aegi wont let me :(!"? and yeah, while aegi seems it'll make lando-i even more broken, what will happen is the exact opposite: the sand genie will become a balanced mon. every smart aegi user, knowing that he'll be griving free turns to a massive threat, will have 1-2 very hard landorus counters, which will greatly diminish its effectiveness, while in the non-aegi meta some teams simply cant afford to run lando-i counters and just get boned.

Bolded part: What?! Having an Aegislash on the field literally gives this thing free setup or a free KO. Once its in, there is so little that can switch in on it, and if its an RP variant there is even less that can reliably deal with this monster due to the rash/modest nature. If it gets in on Aegi (not that hard for it with a little luring/pivoting) it is basically guaranteed a kill/cripple/setup. If giving this thing free turns to destroy the switch in is the complete antithesis of Aegi making it balanced. As for the start of the quote, it is really killing innovation by effectively dictating which pokemon are viable simply by being in the tier, and this will most likely reduce OU to 15 or so pokemon simply due to it ruining the viability of such a large portion of the metagame. The main complaint (and misconception) of less experienced players is that the current OU meta lacks variety. With Aegi in the meta, this will become reality as opposed to a misconception, and I really don't want that to happen.

well my knowledge of rby/gsc is really limited, so i cant really debate on whether they were broken or not, though if they were really that broken im sure we'd ssee experienced players trying to ban them. but i'm pretty sure aegi's problem isn't checking 12830 threats, it's due to the fact it has crazy offensive/defensive stats, an amazing movepool, and spams an unresisted stab move from 438 sp.atk.

I have played and seen discussion over banning Snorlax in GSC, and the concensus has always been that there is no point due to how few viable pokemon there are as it is, and none of these inviabilites have ever been due to Snorlax preventing them from being viable. This is the antithesis of Aegislash, which is less about OPness and more about "checking 12830 threats" (heh... thanks for accidentally writing an amazing way of describing aegi...) as really the problem was never about it being broken.

as for the guy saying jirachi the threats i mentioned, i recommend actually playing the game more. wisp from garde makes jira useless, metagross isnt damaged effectively by it and eq 2hkos, thundurus resists iron head and cant be para'd, hera/medi/gallade 2hko or ohko with fighting moves, zam does huge dmg with shadow ball, and sub toxic rachi beats other rachis one on one.

Actually, comparing Jirachi to Aegislash is reasonable, as Rachi is a lot like Aegislash in its role, just less extreme and doesn't make over half the tier bad, situational or inviable.

edit: what do you mean by "medicham wasnt good in xy aegi meta"? Medicham straight up won against the common stall core (skarm chans venu tran quag fable). It was great on tours, it was just risky to use because of aegis but it was still good. same w/ hera

Hera and Medicham were usable but they were typically unseen outside of tournament teams due to the insane opportunity cost to using them (that and Medicham was only good against non-Aegi stall due to Aegi's presence). Hera never liked having to run EQ, but it had little choice as otherwise it couldn't touch the omnipresent Aegi. Medicham literally couldn't touch it outside of Fire Punch, which risked the King's Shield drop and, as such, was only reliable on switches (much like Knock Off v.s. Aegi, except you could use it more than once on Aegi), and that still didn't prevent the fact that Aegi was also very common on stall, often forming the center of stall teams due to it being the best way for it do deal with hyper offense, which made Medicham less of a reliable stallbreaker.

edit 2 @ below: it depends on your definition of a good metagame. i prefer one where battles are decided mostly on plays and creativity, instead of one where battles are decided on blind matchup luck

The Aegi meta is really not one where battles are decided mostly on plays and creativity as there isn't really that much creativity to go about due to the small pool of good 'mons to choose from. Also, I've found that the non-aegi meta (i.e. the one we have now - before the test) is the least matchup-based out of all of the 6th gen metas yet, without needing 3-4 checks to any one pokemon on a team at any given time, but punishing poor teambuilding that doesn't have a fair number the s/a+-rank mons covered and not allowing for there to be any "near-perfect teams", making the teambuilding process more of a process of information absorption and trial and improvement - where you absorb the pokemon that you struggle against (be it your team or you personally) and cover those for the starting blocks of your team and deal with most of the others across the other teamslots - than having one thing to check the vast majority of the pokemon in the meta, effectively reducing it to 5 'mons to cover what Aegi doesn't - leading to the possibility of near-perfect teams and making teambuilding a less intuitive process..

I've been playing the ladder for a while now, and I must say. I really, really enjoy it. I've been able to use some underrated set, I like how the team looks and I'm able to use more diverse pokemon as Aegislash does a nice job of checking some of the biggest threats. I think Aegislash looks worse on paper than it does in practice and I haven't experienced an issue this meta.

Of the argubly broken ones, Aegi checks two. And one of those isn't the one that needs dealing with the most (Lando-I), making it counterproductive IMO.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

huh? my point isn't "ban S rank threats and the meta becomes better", rather, it is: metagame without aegi/altaria/gross/lando-i > metagame with aegi/altaria/gross/lando-i > metagame without aegi but with altaria/gross/lando-i.

Now see this right here, is what I've been waiting to read.
Want to know why? Because it sort of breaks every hope of balance this meta ever had. See, I'm very Anti-Aegi, VERY, anti-Aegi. I believe it needs to remain Ubers. However, with that said, I can't help but agree with your statement. The meta with Aegi, I wouldn't say is better, but it is easier to plug Aegi in whenever you need it to patch up your holes. Instead of removing the threats, you've just introduced a threat, to the threats. One would think that would alleviate the problem, but it doesn't. As a matter of fact, it just pushes it away and creates a new one. You can say it, casts a shadow over it badum tsch. But ya see, that doesn't remove anything. See, the problem is just suffocated. The problem isn't Megagross, mAlt, and fairies, no, the problem is Aegi, mLop, lando, and Keldeo now. See, it didn't balance the metagame, it shifted it, on to an equally unhealthy state.
We went about this all wrong, we get some form of false security with this thing when the truth is, we just changed who the problem children are. So, yes, it's rather unfortunate that MegaGross, mAlt, and fairies shaped the meta, but if those are truly the problem we should worry about those. Not work backwards. Aegi itself is not a broken (compared to the likes of things like Lando I) Pokemon, for the most part we can agree with that, pro/anti ban it doesn't matter, but it does shape the meta and the Pokemon around it, so because of that, we have to put it out there with the other Pokemon in OU. We need to weigh the metagame, not Aegislash. Aegislash is an entirely different breed, it's not a Pokemon you can just say is broken, and move on. It's something you have to weigh among its peers. Yea, you're able to remove what were once top tier threats, but now instead of those ruining lives, something else does it. During a suspect test, we analyze what a metagame would be like without the overwhelming burden of having to prepare for, or deal with it (see Greninja). This, unfortunately is not the case, as a matter of fact, this suspect works the exact opposite. Now we're given something to cover our ass, of course we want that, who wouldn't? So now we're given this false sense of security, when in actuality we've simply shifted focus.
See, this is not a suspect we should be doing right now, it's been stated time and time again we had bigger fish to fry, but we said fuck it. And that's not something I think I will ever agree with. We have never been a community that works backwards, until now.
With that said, I'll be voting to Ban it, and probably won't be staying long enough to find out the outcome.

 

[jpw234]

Just got reqs. Now that I will (hopefully) never have to see another Aegislash in gen 6 OU, some final thoughts.

The current metagame (w/o Aegi) is awesome. Much like SINFUL DESIRES said in an earlier post on this thread, we have diversity in both playstyle choices and Pokemon. The mechanic of only allowing one mega evolution per team means that plenty of not-top-tier Pokemon retain powerful niches and we see metagame evolution and innovation on a weekly basis in things like Smogon Tours. I hear an incredibly large number of people complaining about "matchup", but I have not once heard an explanation of why "matchup" is a driving concern.

As far as Aegislash itself goes. Aegislash is a Pokemon that defies comparison. This is the number 1 red flag for a Pokemon being broken. Contrary to popular belief, the easiest way to be "broken" is not to be overwhelmingly strong, it is to fill a role that the metagame is unprepared for. This is why Mega-Metagross (a Pokemon that is undoubtedly "more powerful" than Aegislash in absolute terms) is much less difficult for the metagame to handle than Aegislash.
Aegislash is:
- One of the bulkiest Steel types in the game
- The only Steel type with an immunity to Fighting and the ability to block Rapid Spin
- The only Pokemon in the game that can threaten to cripple an opposing Pokemon while using Protect (we're not counting Chesnaught)
- The most powerful offensive Ghost-type in a metagame that is unsuited to handle Ghost types, particularly physical Ghost types
- Capable of filling roles literally everywhere on the offense-defense spectrum, from pure defensive counter (SubToxic) to pure wallbreaker (SD Head Smash)

It is impossible to compare a Pokemon like this to anything else in the OU metagame. The fact that we have people in this thread trying to pigeonhole it as "just a bulky pivot" and compare it to Landorus-T, Rotom-W or lol HEATRAN is ridiculous. Aegislash is not "just a bulky pivot". Aegislash is simultaneously the bulkiest pivot on both sides of the defensive spectrum in OU, and one of the hardest hitting wallbreakers on both sides of the offensive spectrum in OU, and the premier spinblocker in OU, and carries the most coveted typing in OU, and, and, and...

Let's talk about "metagame diversity" and the effect that a Pokemon like Aegislash has on less-used Pokemon. We have people in this thread trying to explain away trends that we already saw when Aegislash got banned - stats that show that many Pokemon, in particular Psychics, Fairies and Fighting types, see much less usage in a metagame where Aegislash is dominant. Saying something like "not every team will have an Aegislash, so these Pokemon will retain their niches" shows a lack of understanding of how "niches" in a game like competitive Pokemon work.
Underused Pokemon are not default picks for their roles. Instead, they are chosen for a team when their unique characteristics are a good fit for the team's needs. Let's take the example of Hawlucha. Hawlucha is certainly an OU-viable Pokemon and a legitimate threat, but it is not, in a vacuum, the best choice for its role of "late-game cleanup against offense". This role is objectively better filled by Pokemon like scarf Keldeo, Mega-Manectric, Mega-Lopunny, or Talonflame. So why does Hawlucha ever get used? It is used because while it is not overall better than these other choices, it has some specific advantages over them. For example, it doesn't take up a mega slot, isn't crippled by Stealth Rock, and has a fairly unique set of STABs in flying/fighting. So an offensive team that already had a mega evolution, didn't put much priority on keeping Stealth Rock off the field, and already had a couple of Water types might choose Hawlucha over these other options.
Now what does a dominant Pokemon like Aegislash do to this calculation. Aegislash flattens niches. What this means is that it forces underused Pokemon to meet a much higher standard in order to justify their selection. In an Aegislash metagame, Hawlucha suffers from all of its previous problems, plus it gives completely free switches to Aegislash. Now a player selecting their late-game cleaner has to have some very serious reasons to pick Hawlucha over Keldeo, Mega-Lopunny, Talonflame, etc. Either they need to be completely unable to shuffle their team around and use one of these threats, or they need to be very comfortable with giving free switches to Aegislash whenever Hawlucha comes in (something that is very hard to do). As a result, very few people pick Hawlucha, regardless of the fact that not everybody is running Aegislash. The same goes for a bunch of other Pokemon. Sure, you can pick Jirachi for your Latios counter. But why do so when it gives free switches to Aegislash and Heatran works there too? You can check electrics with Roserade, but why not Hippowdon? You can use Starmie for your spinner, but why not use TTar + Exca?

Now the retort is that this effect is not unique, and that other blanket checks like Talonflame, Landorus-T and Rotom-W do the same thing. The issue is that this is complete bullshit. It's right in the term "blanket check". In order to fulfill that role, each of these Pokemon has to make sacrifices. They run basically the exact same sets all the time with almost no variation in order to achieve that. If Landorus-T is going to be a blanket check, it has to be scarfed Earthquake/U-Turn/Stone Edge/Knock Off. If it wants to get Mega Gyarados too, it has to run Superpower. Rotom-W has to have Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/Will-O-Wisp, etc. These Pokemon are one-dimensional for a reason - they have to be to even get the moniker "blanket check". And because they are one-dimensional, they have common, solid counters that can be fit onto a team without much trouble. They are not unhealthy because in order to become blanket checks, they must limit themselves and concede to being consistently walled by a predictable set of threats.
This is not the case for Aegislash. Aegislash is a blanket check only by virtue of its typing, base stats on switch-in, and Shadow Ball. With that alone it crushes Jirachi, Celebi, Gardevoir, etc etc. Everything else is a bonus. SubToxic Aegislash and LO 4 attacks all get to be blanket checks (at varying levels of effectiveness, to be sure, but they fill the role adequately). So not only does Aegislash pressure the metagame very hard from a defensive standpoint, it also pressures it from an offensive standpoint. Unlike other blanket checks, you can't just slap on a common "Aegislash counter" and not worry about granting it free switches. Aegi has ways of beating almost every one of its checks and counters and can wreak absolute havoc against teams that are underprepared for it. Before, I said that in order to pick Hawlucha, they have to be okay with giving Aegislash free switches. This is a very high burden. Nobody worries about giving Rotom-W or Landorus-T free switches because they're predictable and easily dealt with. This is not the case for Aegi.
This is what makes Aegislash broken, and what makes comparisons to Landorus-T and Rotom-W completely ridiculous. Aegislash is not a blanket check. Aegislash is a wallbreaker that also gets to be a blanket check. Unless it wants to be a setup sweeper that also gets to be a blanket check. Unless it wants to be a dedicated special wall that also gets to be a blanket check. Unless it wants to be an offensive pivot that also gets to be a blanket check.

This amount of role compression is not part of a healthy metagame. I've already seen it on the suspect ladder, where Aegislash is omnipresent and teams are forced to overprepare for it. The dominance of Mega-Lopunny, Landorus, and Charizard-Y and the relative lack of Aegi-weak Pokemon like Jirachi and Starmie testify to the negative effects Aegislash has on the metagame. Dropping it would be a massive mistake.


PS: And to all of the people who've spent the last 5 pages going back and forth about 50/50s and patting themselves on the back, seriously, get a grip. Nobody seriously gives a shit about 50/50s. 50/50s are the sour cherry on top of the Aegislash shitcake. Most of the reliable Aegislash counters don't care about King's Shield anyway.

 

[SCamo]

I think banning Kings Shields just gets rid of Special Attacking Aegi, it does not preserve SD Aegi from setting up on half the Tier and than kill everything with a good +4 Shadow Sneak.

I think it needs to stay uber honestly, but with Lando-I/m-mgross/m-altaria around, it's the perfect "pivot-solution" until the council has figured something new

 

[Imperator Romanum]

TBH, the reason that they see 88/98% usage respectively is because of the fact that there is nothing to replace them. The fact that they are broken in the tiers, while part of the reason for their usage, is not the full situation. They are splashable, much like Aegi, they are broken, half like Aegi (IMO broken is the wrong word to describe Aegi, but it isn't terrible - but I digress), and nothing can really fill their roles effectively without them due to a range of unique traits that set them above all of the psuedo-Tauros and psuedo Snorlax, completely unlike Aegi. Aegi is a highly replacable 'mon due to there being 700+ pokemon now, as opposed to 150 and 250, respectively, and many of them fill similar roles to one another, unlike gens 1 and 2. This has been helped somewhat by the physical/special split that happened in gen 4, which is another reason that there is nothing which can effectively replace them on a team in gens 1/2 (i.e. when normal was a v. good type itself) as their very unique stat spread and movepool in conjunction with the old mechanics meant that there wasn't really anything that acted as a substitute for them (unlike the current meta, where things like Jirachi can fill a similar role to Aegi but in a more balanced way).

They are far easier to cover though. The fact that, if a psychic-type/HJK user lacks EQ, they are instantly at a disadvantage v.s. any team that has an Aegi, as well as the fact that HJK is suicidal against Aegislash and its omnipresence making it a liability more than its purpose (a nuke). In BW, T-Tar and Rachi were omnipresent. However, they were easily countered without the need for mindgames or taking an insane hit on the switch. Aegi, on the other hand, needs to be hit on the switch if you want to hit it reliably with Knock Off, needs to be played around if you want to hit it with things like Flare Blitz (and Scrappy HJK, which does more than just lower your attack v.s. KS) or needs to be dealt with using EQ - which is usually either not the optimal option for the user (e.g. M-Pinsir, M-Zard X, M-Heracross etc.) or is blatantly obvious (Garchomp, Landorus-I etc.) - or a special move, which is, once again, usually blatantly obvious (I see you there MixApe - RIP Flare Blitz variants w/ Aegi).

Bolded part: What?! Having an Aegislash on the field literally gives this thing free setup or a free KO. Once its in, there is so little that can switch in on it, and if its an RP variant there is even less that can reliably deal with this monster due to the rash/modest nature. If it gets in on Aegi (not that hard for it with a little luring/pivoting) it is basically guaranteed a kill/cripple/setup. If giving this thing free turns to destroy the switch in is the complete antithesis of Aegi making it balanced. As for the start of the quote, it is really killing innovation by effectively dictating which pokemon are viable simply by being in the tier, and this will most likely reduce OU to 15 or so pokemon simply due to it ruining the viability of such a large portion of the metagame. The main complaint (and misconception) of less experienced players is that the current OU meta lacks variety. With Aegi in the meta, this will become reality as opposed to a misconception, and I really don't want that to happen.

I have played and seen discussion over banning Snorlax in GSC, and the concensus has always been that there is no point due to how few viable pokemon there are as it is, and none of these inviabilites have ever been due to Snorlax preventing them from being viable. This is the antithesis of Aegislash, which is less about OPness and more about "checking 12830 threats" (heh... thanks for accidentally writing an amazing way of describing aegi...) as really the problem was never about it being broken.

Actually, comparing Jirachi to Aegislash is reasonable, as Rachi is a lot like Aegislash in its role, just less extreme and doesn't make over half the tier bad, situational or inviable.

Hera and Medicham were usable but they were typically unseen outside of tournament teams due to the insane opportunity cost to using them (that and Medicham was only good against non-Aegi stall due to Aegi's presence). Hera never liked having to run EQ, but it had little choice as otherwise it couldn't touch the omnipresent Aegi. Medicham literally couldn't touch it outside of Fire Punch, which risked the King's Shield drop and, as such, was only reliable on switches (much like Knock Off v.s. Aegi, except you could use it more than once on Aegi), and that still didn't prevent the fact that Aegi was also very common on stall, often forming the center of stall teams due to it being the best way for it do deal with hyper offense, which made Medicham less of a reliable stallbreaker.

The Aegi meta is really not one where battles are decided mostly on plays and creativity as there isn't really that much creativity to go about due to the small pool of good 'mons to choose from. Also, I've found that the non-aegi meta (i.e. the one we have now - before the test) is the least matchup-based out of all of the 6th gen metas yet, without needing 3-4 checks to any one pokemon on a team at any given time, but punishing poor teambuilding that doesn't have a fair number the s/a+-rank mons covered and not allowing for there to be any "near-perfect teams", making the teambuilding process more of a process of information absorption and trial and improvement - where you absorb the pokemon that you struggle against (be it your team or you personally) and cover those for the starting blocks of your team and deal with most of the others across the other teamslots - than having one thing to check the vast majority of the pokemon in the meta, effectively reducing it to 5 'mons to cover what Aegi doesn't - leading to the possibility of near-perfect teams and making teambuilding a less intuitive process..

Of the argubly broken ones, Aegi checks two. And one of those isn't the one that needs dealing with the most (Lando-I), making it counterproductive IMO.

The S ranks are so common that people already carry one too two checks for them regardless, your aegislash doesn't NEED to check those specifically.
Here's a list of the OUs pokemon, and how Aegislash impacts them:

Mega Altaria:

Aegislash checks Mega Altaria, but Mega Altaria can run both Earthquake and a Strong Fire stab to deal substantial damage to Aegislash. Both of those moves fail to OHKO Aegislash. Aegislash can carry Flash Cannon and it has a 93% chance to OHKO. However, Mega Altarias most common set is its Oras Mega Dragon dance and Aegislash most common set is, I believe, Mixed attacker. Modest 252 Shadow ball has a 99.6% chance to OHKO Mega Altaria, and that's without factoring in the chance of getting a special defense drop. In general, Aegislash doesn't mind most of Altarias sets, but fears the uncommon Fire Blast and less uncommon Earthquake, but Earthquake fails to 2HKO. So It's safe to say that Aegislash is a hard check to Mega Altaria.

Keldeo:

Keldeo fails to OHKO Aegislash. Aegislash survives the Hydro pump, even if Keldeo is specs, and it can then proceed to do substantial damage with a Spooky plate boosted Shadow ball, followed by a Shadow sneak, which has a chance to OHKO and a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks. I'm not familiar with what term I'd use to describe this confrontation. They check each other is what I'd describe, depending on what switches in the other pokemon will win. If they're both on the field at the same time, Aegislash has a chance to beat Keldeo before it can beat him. So I guess Aegislash Soft checks

Landorus-I:

Landorus-I does substantial damage to Aegislash with an 87.5 chance to OHKO him. Obviously you would never switch your Aegislash in on a Landorus-i, but if you do and you do survive the Earth power Shadow ball does a minimum of 80% and Shadow sneak does a minimum of 25%, but I would say Landorus-I beats Aegislash most of the time.

Mega Metagross:

If Mega Metagross does NOT carry Earthquake, Aegislash can switch in and OHKO with Shadow ball. If Mega Metagross does carry Earthquake Aegislash can check it, living an Earthquake and OHKO with Shadow ball. Aegislash is a hard check/counter to Mega Metagross

Azumarill:

Azumarill is beaten by Aegislash. If Azumarill is Assault vest it can live 2 Shadow balls + 1 Shadow sneak, but if its Assault vest its very vulnerable to King shield. If it's choice band Aegislash can look at the damage and then King shield. If Azumarill is Belly drum then it has a chance to beat Aegislash, it depends on the prediction. If it Belly drums while Aegislash attacks it will die to Shadow ball. hard check/counter

Bisharp:

People always seem to bring up Bisharp as a way to revenge kill Aegislash after its attacked, but people forget: Bisharp can't OHKO Aegislash... It's not a guaranteed OHKO. And then Aegislash could OHKO it back with Sacred sword. But it's a 50/50, Bisharp can't switch in but neither can Aegislash. Check v Check

Charizard-X:

Specially defensive Charizard-X counters every form of Aegislash EXCEPT Choice Band Headsmash, offensive varients can revenge kill Aegislash with Flare blitz but it still can't ohko at -2. Hard countered & Checked

Clefable:

If Aegislash runs some sort of Steel move then Aegislash will win, if it's the SD version and Clefable carries a fire move then Clefable will win. Check

Mega Diancie:

Aegislash can't switch in, but Shadow ball + Shadow sneak should OHKO after rocks, if rocks aren't up then it has a chance to OHKO. Earth power 2HKOs Aegislash. If it carries a steel move than it's a perfect check

Garchomp:

Garchomp is a pretty nice check to Aegislash, Earthquake OHKOs blade form and 2HKOs Shield form. Garchomp can run so many different sets, but so can Aegislash. I'd say Garchomp checks Aegislash, and I wont argue against it. If you got something to say I'd love to add it :] Checked

Gengar:

Gengar and Aegislash check one another. Gengar 2HKOs Aegislash regardless of spread but Aegislash OHKOs Gengar almost two times over, but Shadow sneak doesn't OHKO either. So if Aegislash switches in it'll lose. If Gengar switches in to Aegislash it loses. If they both lead Gengar loses.

Glisocr:

Specially defensive Gliscor counters all of Aegislash sets and fits on Balance and Stall, not so much on offense though. Don't quote me on this, I might be forgetting a set. Countered


See, I can keep going but... Before the suspect ladder it was very difficult to team build. Running anything besides A ranked mons would make it very difficult to play. And I'm not saying you're entitled to use any mon and rule the ladder. But I think I should be able to use any pokemon with right support without getting my ass beat and I believe that's what Aegislash does for the metagame.

 

[AM]

The S ranks are so common that people already carry one too two checks for them regardless, your aegislash doesn't NEED to check those specifically.
Here's a list of the OUs pokemon, and how Aegislash impacts them:

Mega Altaria:

Aegislash checks Mega Altaria, but Mega Altaria can run both Earthquake and a Strong Fire stab to deal substantial damage to Aegislash. Both of those moves fail to OHKO Aegislash. Aegislash can carry Flash Cannon and it has a 93% chance to OHKO. However, Mega Altarias most common set is its Oras Mega Dragon dance and Aegislash most common set is, I believe, Mixed attacker. Modest 252 Shadow ball has a 99.6% chance to OHKO Mega Altaria, and that's without factoring in the chance of getting a special defense drop. In general, Aegislash doesn't mind most of Altarias sets, but fears the uncommon Fire Blast and less uncommon Earthquake, but Earthquake fails to 2HKO. So It's safe to say that Aegislash is a hard check to Mega Altaria.

Keldeo:

Keldeo fails to OHKO Aegislash. Aegislash survives the Hydro pump, even if Keldeo is specs, and it can then proceed to do substantial damage with a Spooky plate boosted Shadow ball, followed by a Shadow sneak, which has a chance to OHKO and a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks. I'm not familiar with what term I'd use to describe this confrontation. They check each other is what I'd describe, depending on what switches in the other pokemon will win. If they're both on the field at the same time, Aegislash has a chance to beat Keldeo before it can beat him. So I guess Aegislash Soft checks

Landorus-I:

Landorus-I does substantial damage to Aegislash with an 87.5 chance to OHKO him. Obviously you would never switch your Aegislash in on a Landorus-i, but if you do and you do survive the Earth power Shadow ball does a minimum of 80% and Shadow sneak does a minimum of 25%, but I would say Landorus-I beats Aegislash most of the time.

Mega Metagross:

If Mega Metagross does NOT carry Earthquake, Aegislash can switch in and OHKO with Shadow ball. If Mega Metagross does carry Earthquake Aegislash can check it, living an Earthquake and OHKO with Shadow ball. Aegislash is a hard check/counter to Mega Metagross

Azumarill:

Azumarill is beaten by Aegislash. If Azumarill is Assault vest it can live 2 Shadow balls + 1 Shadow sneak, but if its Assault vest its very vulnerable to King shield. If it's choice band Aegislash can look at the damage and then King shield. If Azumarill is Belly drum then it has a chance to beat Aegislash, it depends on the prediction. If it Belly drums while Aegislash attacks it will die to Shadow ball. hard check/counter

Bisharp:

People always seem to bring up Bisharp as a way to revenge kill Aegislash after its attacked, but people forget: Bisharp can't OHKO Aegislash... It's not a guaranteed OHKO. And then Aegislash could OHKO it back with Sacred sword. But it's a 50/50, Bisharp can't switch in but neither can Aegislash. Check v Check

Charizard-X:

Specially defensive Charizard-X counters every form of Aegislash EXCEPT Choice Band Headsmash, offensive varients can revenge kill Aegislash with Flare blitz but it still can't ohko at -2. Hard countered & Checked

Clefable:

If Aegislash runs some sort of Steel move then Aegislash will win, if it's the SD version and Clefable carries a fire move then Clefable will win. Check

Mega Diancie:

Aegislash can't switch in, but Shadow ball + Shadow sneak should OHKO after rocks, if rocks aren't up then it has a chance to OHKO. Earth power 2HKOs Aegislash. If it carries a steel move than it's a perfect check

Garchomp:

Garchomp is a pretty nice check to Aegislash, Earthquake OHKOs blade form and 2HKOs Shield form. Garchomp can run so many different sets, but so can Aegislash. I'd say Garchomp checks Aegislash, and I wont argue against it. If you got something to say I'd love to add it :] Checked

Gengar:

Gengar and Aegislash check one another. Gengar 2HKOs Aegislash regardless of spread but Aegislash OHKOs Gengar almost two times over, but Shadow sneak doesn't OHKO either. So if Aegislash switches in it'll lose. If Gengar switches in to Aegislash it loses. If they both lead Gengar loses.

Glisocr:

Specially defensive Gliscor counters all of Aegislash sets and fits on Balance and Stall, not so much on offense though. Don't quote me on this, I might be forgetting a set. Countered


See, I can keep going but... Before the suspect ladder it was very difficult to team build. Running anything besides A ranked mons would make it very difficult to play. And I'm not saying you're entitled to use any mon and rule the ladder. But I think I should be able to use any pokemon with right support without getting my ass beat and I believe that's what Aegislash does for the metagame.

I can't comfortably read stuff like this without letting you know how each one of these situations you just put forth is based on so many circumstances where these alone just shows how dominant Aegislash is from an offensive and defensive role. Like in your scenarios you put out the best of the best scenarios in where these top tier threats manage to handle Aegislash and then you watch matches like in the Suspect Tour where all of these supposed checks sort of just ended up with the same problems in that they danced around a certain variant which makes all the theorymonning a waste of a read.

I don't think I have to go into detail as others have for awhile now in how the teambuilding constraint and matchup is blown out of proportion. Lol right now you can use whatever Pokemon you want waaaay more than the Aegislash meta. What diversity have you actually seen as opposed to the meta we're in right now cause I'm definitely not seeing it what so ever. People use stuff beyond the top tier threats all the time so not sure how you just made this wild assumption that you're forced to run only those and be successful when that's just a flat out lie.

 

[Freeroamer]

0 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 242-289 (93.4 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(242, 244, 250, 252, 252, 257, 260, 265, 265, 268, 273, 276, 276, 281, 283, 289)

Not sure where you got the idea Aegis couldn't KO... I could also go on to say Aegi could run HP Ice for chomper, can kill SpDef Zard with rocks up and a combo of LO Shadow Ball and Sneak, etc. but all of these is missing the big point. AM has explained it much better than I have, but I'll attempt to condense and reassert, all of these situations look very promising on paper, but rather fall apart in practice as can be seen in the replays from the live suspect tour. Also kind of the reason that matchup is an issue is that it's difficult enough to prepare for the top threats, let alone more obscure threats. I actually enjoyed using teams with so called underwhelming mons because teams that have attempted to cater for the "standard" would often have very little answer to them.

 

[phil1308]

Hey I just wanted to post my own opinion on the whole Aegislash ordeal here. I have made reqs at this point and have done around 80 battles in the OU suspect ladder and countess in OU prior and have won 3 pokemon tournaments under smogon rules and local tournaments. Sorry if it sounds like I'm coming across as arrogant or cocky its not my intention, only point is to give everyone some background of my experience and the countless battles I have done. Regardless in my own experience I find the OU suspect ladder to be much more diversified with Aegislash in the meta compared to what OU was prior. In the past I ran across Landorus T in almost every battle, oddly you would expect him to be more common now but with the battles I have done that hasn't been the case. Lastly before this suspect test began I ran into the same team 3 to 4 times which was insane to me it consisted of Azurmarill, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Thunderus I, Dragonite, and Charizard Y and I kept looking at the name trying to convince myself that it must have been the same person but I swear to you everytime it was someone different. The overall point I'm making is in my own personal experience I find the meta game to be much more diverse with Aegislash in it then it was prior, and ultimately isn't that the whole point of banning or unbanning mons to diversify the meta, or at least hats what I thought was a big part of it. Anyways just wanted to put my 50 cents in on the whole thing and through my experiences hope this helped in some way.

 

[Patolegend!]

Hey I just wanted to post my own opinion on the whole Aegislash ordeal here. I have made reqs at this point and have done around 80 battles in the OU suspect ladder and countess in OU prior and have won 3 pokemon tournaments under smogon rules and local tournaments. Sorry if it sounds like I'm coming across as arrogant or cocky its not my intention, only point is to give everyone some background of my experience and the countless battles I have done. Regardless in my own experience I find the OU suspect ladder to be much more diversified with Aegislash in the meta compared to what OU was prior. In the past I ran across Landorus T in almost every battle, oddly you would expect him to be more common now but with the battles I have done that hasn't been the case. Lastly before this suspect test began I ran into the same team 3 to 4 times which was insane to me it consisted of Azurmarill, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Thunderus I, Dragonite, and Charizard Y and I kept looking at the name trying to convince myself that it must have been the same person but I swear to you everytime it was someone different. The overall point I'm making is in my own personal experience I find the meta game to be much more diverse with Aegislash in it then it was prior, and ultimately isn't that the whole point of banning or unbanning mons to diversify the meta, or at least hats what I thought was a big part of it. Anyways just wanted to put my 50 cents in on the whole thing and through my experiences hope this helped in some way.

Lol, the difference on the suspect ladder is that Lando-I is EVERYWHERE. It really isn't that diverse at all - I've continued to play after getting reqs just for the craic, and I'm still seeing tankchomp klef lati@s lopunny aegi teams everywhere. I'm not sure how you can say that there is more diversity now - in fact the most variety I see is in the Aegislash set, making it really hard to dance around/handle.