Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[HJAD]

i don't think they're talking about SD close combat ursaring hjad, but 4 attacks with seed bomb (for rhydon and defensive toad) and earthquake (to avoid rocky helmet from garbodor). it's gotta use the things that seperate it from zangoose, ie different coverage

personally i can see B- based off of theorymon, but as goomy said one should really use it before voicing an opinion.

some impressive posts here, i'm astounded at the lengths people go to to defend their opinion on what i consider a rather trivial matter lol

Yeah of course, maybe I didn't explain myself properly.

my point: you aren't switching ferroseed straight in, it might have cc, bye ferroseed.

 

[Aasgier]

The thing with Ursaring is... even if it is outclassed by Zangoose, it has a surprise factor with its coverage. Sure, the set Facade + Crunch + Earthquake + Seed Bomb isn't entirely outclassed by Zangoose, and sure, Ferroseed walls it... but now, my team is weak to Ferroseed, so instead, I don't run Crunch but Close Combat instead, because I'm not overly worried about Gourgeist? (and Guts Seed Bomb does a ton to a Mismagius anyway) KAPOW!

It runs Facade... and then which coverage?
Seed Bomb? Earthquake? Crunch? Close Combat? Play Rough? Fire Punch?

Maybe even a Swords Dance + 3 attacks set? Is it Quick Feet or Guts? If Guts, is it max speed or max HP? Should I gamble on either of these? If I'm unlucky enough, Ursaring gets to kill something without me figuring any of these out. And if I think I wall its coverage and Facade (for example, Gourgeist), I suddenly get smacked with an unrevealed Crunch or even Fire Punch (which I believe to be better alongside Seed Bomb and Earthquake than Crunch, because most Ghosts in NU are frail as hell or weak to Fire... and Fire+Grass hits a ton of stuff neutrally at least.

With Zangoose, we all know what it does. It runs usually max speed, has Toxic Boost (can't switch into a Mismagius, unlike Ursaring!). It runs Facade, Close Combat and Knock Off, and either Protect, Swords Dance or Quick Attack in the last slot. Voilá, have fun. We know what it does and we know you won't get anywhere. I revenge you with Mismagius, Gurdurr or even a fucking Pikachu (Extreme Speed!), or whatever mon I have that is faster than you. We know which hits it can take and cannot take, we all carry priority. Even worse is that its main coverage, Close Combat, lowers defences, meaning that much more priority becomes dangerous towards Zangoose (as well as Close Combat Ursaring, but Ursaring can run Earthquake just as well if not better).

That being said, I never had problems with either of these, since they usually just got a kill on some weakened mon, before Leavanny revenged it with a LO-boosted Leaf Blade, or Uxie with Psychic, or Gurdurr with Mach Punch... now I think of it, I never faced a Quick Feet Ursaring before, and I never used either of the Normal-types, so I'm no longer as adamant about their positions compared to each other...

Giving Pika's Espeed as a joke example made me realize how sad it is that the rat family cannot run a set of Volt Tackle + Extremespeed + Icicle Crash + Knock Off. Frail as f*ck but also even worse than Zangoose and Ursaring combined if it comes to wallbreaking because it can still hit on the other side of the spectrum if it wishes to (hi Nasty Plot).

 

[Shuckleking87]

Offensive leavanny better not be a thing again aasgier ;)

 

[Aasgier]

I don't like a Sash on Leavanny, mostly not because I don't lead with it, and if I do, it is to kill something I don't want to stay alive... and without Life Orb it doesn't deal enough damage.
Leavanny can find room to set Sticky Web midgame just fine usually.

 

[Blast]

In case you didn't pay attention to the argument, Sweet Jesus is nominating Ursaring for a raise based on a particular moveset involving Earthquake and Seed Bomb. If Ursaring attempts to deviate from this moveset by fitting other coverage moves such as Close Combat, it would share too much similiarity with Zangoose and risk getting overshadowed further, which would weaken Ursa's remaining niche and provide even less reason to use Ursa over Zangoose. However, said moveset that gives Guts Ursa its niche over Zangoose has a hard counter in Ferroseed, while Zangoose's regular set has no (or not as) hard counters in comparison. It is already tricky enough to dig up reasons to justify using Guts Ursaring over Zangoose, and when Ursa has a hard counter while Zangoose does not, it's not helping Ursaring's case.

Yeah I wasn't aware that a Pokemon's "best" set leaves it completely devoid of other options lol... in fact if anything that makes Ursaring even more dangerous because it HAS the option of running something like CC and still has Seed Bomb and EQ for you to look out for. Have fun losing Ferroseed to CC Ursa solely because "it shouldn't run that or else Zangoose outclasses it xD!!!" which is begging for trouble in an actual battle.

I haven't used Ursaring either but can you actually stop it with these absurd levels of theorymon? I don't understand how anyone can make these ridiculously bold claims like "the added bulk almost never comes into play" or "Quick Feet is definitely better than Guts" about a Pokemon they clearly haven't used, especially when they're talking to someone who has. I mean really, I'm not trying to say Ursa should guaranteed be put in B (since again, I haven't used it) but perhaps you could, you know, actually use the godforsaken Pokemon and see for yourself whether half of the stuff you said is even true?

Like to put it in perspective, this quote really annoys me:

And on the subject of contact damage, I'm just going to address the biggest issue I have with the arguments so far: Garbodor's advantage over Zangoose is greatly exaggerated. There are two outcomes of Goose vs Garbo:

Worst case scenario (contact move + contact move): 100 - [16 - 6] - [16 - 25 - 12] = ~25%
Best case scenario (Knock Off + contact move): 100 - [16 - 6] - [25 - 12] = ~41%

Both scenarios result in a dead Garbo and a still very alive Zangoose. How would this be considered an unfavorable trade in Zangoose's case? Sure Goose is near dead, but it still KOed Garbodor and has a couple of attacks left in it that pack a punch, so its short time left on the field can still be enough for Goose to leave more of its marks thanks to its speed and priority. And this is assuming Garbodor is healthy enough to take two hits from Zangoose in the first place since Adamant Facade has a miniscule chance to outright OHKO (which leaves Zangoose at a very manageable ~53%). I don't see Ursaring's luxury in avoiding this extra damage to be worth giving up Goose's various advantages. If Ursaring OHKOes Garbodor with Earthquake this would be a different story, but it doesn't (does less than Facade), so Ursa still has to play around the fact that the Garbo player may just save it to bait the damage on Ursaring later. Which means Ursaring still has to predict correctly if it wants to come out on top of Garbo with more health than Zangoose would; even the reward-risk ratio is heavily skewed against Ursaring's favor: predicting correctly means Ursa gets like a couple of extra turns at most to live, but predicting incorrectly means you'd pretty much be better off using a Zangoose in the first place. And since Zangoose still ends up trading favorably with Garbodor in the end, why go through that trouble of trying to marginally improve the Garbodor matchup when it still requires pinpoint prediction just to work out (there is also the possibility of offensive Garbodor which can punish Ursa before it fires off its EQ)?

You realize being at 41% minimum matters a lot more when you factor in stuff like hazards and your opponent actually having a brain themselves? If so much as Stealth Rock is on the field and your opponent stalls out like one extra turn of poison, Zangoose is down to where it can't even switch out anymore. So yes, being able to hit up Garbodor with a non-contact move is in fact useful, because believe it or not this game doesn't always come down to a bunch of oh-so-carefully plotted math equations.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah I wasn't aware that a Pokemon's "best" set leaves it completely devoid of other options lol... in fact if anything that makes Ursaring even more dangerous because it HAS the option of running something like CC and still has Seed Bomb and EQ for you to look out for. Have fun losing Ferroseed to CC Ursa solely because "it shouldn't run that or else Zangoose outclasses it xD!!!" which is begging for trouble in an actual battle.

You mean Seed Bomb or EQ, because you're not meaning to say you'd give up Crunch on Ursa now, would you? Not running both of those attacks at once kind of defeats the purpose of running Ursa over Zangoose in the first place, because all that amounts to is running an overall less effective Zangoose with like one single lure move (for 1-2 Pokemon).

I haven't used Ursaring either but can you actually stop it with these absurd levels of theorymon? I don't understand how anyone can make these ridiculously bold claims like "the added bulk almost never comes into play" or "Quick Feet is definitely better than Guts" about a Pokemon they clearly haven't used, especially when they're talking to someone who has. I mean really, I'm not trying to say Ursa should guaranteed be put in B (since again, I haven't used it) but perhaps you could, you know, actually use the godforsaken Pokemon and see for yourself whether half of the stuff you said is even true?

I don't know how I came off as not touching Ursaring at all; I've explicitly stated I've dabbled with Ursa recently. And I can confidently say that 9 times out of 10, I wish I had Zangoose's speed and/or priority, as opposed to Ursaring KOing like one or two threats that Zangoose would've KOed anyway and not contributing for the rest of the match afterward; not to mention I found Ursa to be significantly more reliant on free / double switches, VoltTurn, or taking advantage of weakened slower Pokemon (Seed Bomb helps I guess), while Zangoose can still get its Toxic Orb off unscathed with barely any support. The 1 time out of 10 is against a full-blown stall team which Ursa would fare better against than Zangoose, except Zangoose would've likely broken the team up enough for my team to clean through anyway.

You realize being at 41% minimum matters a lot more when you factor in stuff like hazards and your opponent actually having a brain themselves? If so much as Stealth Rock is on the field and your opponent stalls out like one extra turn of poison, Zangoose is down to where it can't even switch out anymore. So yes, being able to hit up Garbodor with a non-contact move is in fact useful, because believe it or not this game doesn't always come down to a bunch of oh-so-carefully plotted math equations.

And from my experience, a 41% Zangoose still has more presence than a 80+% Ursaring unless, again, you were full blown stall. Because from my experiences, Ursaring KOes the Garbo and then fails to KO anything after that because, I don't know, it doesn't outrun any offensive Pokes worth a damn (bar Mawile and Exeggutor); Zangoose is harder to revenge kill, and even more so without taking substantial damage. And if the Zangoose player is smart (aka also has a brain), Zangoose should probably be switched out after KOing Garbo so poison damage doesn't kill it right the turn after, giving it just a few more turns to wreak havoc on various opponents, certainly more than Ursaring can hope for after KOing a Garbo in most circumstances. And that is assuming the absolute best case scenario for the Ursa vs Garbo matchup, because there are several scenarios that can nullify Ursa's advantage. Like I said, since Guts EQ doesn't OHKO bulky Garbo, you don't know if the opponent would save Garbo from the EQ to bait out a Facade in the future, and if Ursa makes contact with Garbo at any point or even simply whiffs an attack against an immunity, it has taken damage Zangoose would've taken anyway. Or if it is an offensive Garbodor, which does far more damage to Ursa with Gunk Shot / Drain Punch than Zangoose takes from Helmet + Aftermath damage. People keep stressing out about the Ursa vs Garbo scenario, but Zangoose has more consistent outcomes against Garbo than Ursa's fluctuating matchups against Garbo, and Zangoose barely even has to predict.

In the end, I'm not even that opposed to a rise to C+; I'm still just arguing that B for Ursa is way too high for the highly minimal niches it provides over Goose.

 

[Funbot28]

After the Mega Rupt and Typhlosion ban, I feel that this rise is the most suitable

A+ -------> S

Mega Audino is arguably one of the best mons in the tier right now. After the mega Lix ban it got slightly better, and now after two of its most prominent checks got banned, it got even better. There are many sets it can run, but the Crocune set is one of the best.

Here are some examples:
This are the three most common sets I have seen so far

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dazzling Gleam

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect
- Knock Off

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower / Psychic
- Wish

People state that many steel types such as Klingklang, Mawile or Ferroseed fully counter or check it, until they realize that it has flamethrower, and fully stops them from switching in. Or it can effectively run psychic to get past hits poison checks.

Here are some calcs:


+1 4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 186-220 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 276-328 (67.3 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 221-265 (53.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 164-196 (56.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 127-151 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 117-138 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 106-126 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 136-161 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 157-186 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 126-148 (30.7 - 36%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 194-230 (47.3 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 195-229 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

There are many other examples I can post, but I think you get the point


If your team does not prepare for it, it simply gets sweep by it. Its as simple as that.
This mon has became so over centralizing, that it is necessary that you carry something to counter it. It can also pair up well with the other S-Rank mons.

She is truly deserving of this rank

Magneton :(

 

[Raseri]

removed seismitoad.

dont discuss the new drops for a few days while we learn whats actually good~


NVM HOLLYWOOD NINJAD ME

 

[freddymc]

After the Mega Rupt and Typhlosion ban, I feel that this rise is the most suitable

A+ -------> S

Mega Audino is arguably one of the best mons in the tier right now. After the mega Lix ban it got slightly better, and now after two of its most prominent checks got banned, it got even better. There are many sets it can run, but the Crocune set is one of the best.

Here are some examples:
This are the three most common sets I have seen so far

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dazzling Gleam

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect
- Knock Off

Audino @ Audinoite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower / Psychic
- Wish

People state that many steel types such as Klingklang, Mawile or Ferroseed fully counter or check it, until they realize that it has flamethrower, and fully stops them from switching in. Or it can effectively run psychic to get past hits poison checks.

Here are some calcs:


+1 4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 186-220 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 276-328 (67.3 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 221-265 (53.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Audino Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 164-196 (56.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 127-151 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 117-138 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 106-126 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 136-161 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 157-186 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 126-148 (30.7 - 36%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 194-230 (47.3 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 195-229 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

There are many other examples I can post, but I think you get the point


If your team does not prepare for it, it simply gets sweep by it. Its as simple as that.
This mon has became so over centralizing, that it is necessary that you carry something to counter it. It can also pair up well with the other S-Rank mons.

She is truly deserving of this rank

Okay, while i don't disagree that m-audino is a threat, the reasons you stated that it can deal with what would otherwise be checks are poor. This is because the set you stated that runs flamethrower/psychic uses wish for recovery instead of rest-talk. And, wish is not only unreliable (as you have to wait a turn before you get the healing boost) but it doesn't cure status, meaning any special wall with toxic can easily take it down. I do not even think about running a specific m-audino counter when team building, because quite honestly, she isn't too much of a problem to my team. Also, the calcs you showed are rather shaky. For starters, the garbodor one. Garbodor outspeeds m-audino easily, and thus can fire off 2 gunk shots before going down to psychic. If the audio is lucky and lives both, then it will be seriously weakened. And with wish as its only form of recovery (because it is running psychic) then any poke can take it down. Mawile speed-ties with m-audino, so it can fire off possibly two iron heads, taking m-audino out. So i don't think it is s-rank material.
EDIT: Speaking of the other sets, the rest-talk one can be taken down by any steel/poison poke, and the cleric one is, well, a cleric, which is more annoying than threatening.

 

[bird crew]

Okay, while i don't disagree that m-audino is a threat, the reasons you stated that it can deal with what would otherwise be checks are poor. This is because the set you stated that runs flamethrower/psychic uses wish for recovery instead of rest-talk. And, wish is not only unreliable (as you have to wait a turn before you get the healing boost) but it doesn't cure status, meaning any special wall with toxic can easily take it down. I do not even think about running a specific m-audino counter when team building, because quite honestly, she isn't too much of a problem to my team. Also, the calcs you showed are rather shaky. For starters, the garbodor one. Garbodor outspeeds m-audino easily, and thus can fire off 2 gunk shots before going down to psychic. If the audio is lucky and lives both, then it will be seriously weakened. And with wish as its only form of recovery (because it is running psychic) then any poke can take it down. Mawile speed-ties with m-audino, so it can fire off possibly two iron heads, taking m-audino out. So i don't think it is s-rank material.
EDIT: Speaking of the other sets, the rest-talk one can be taken down by any steel/poison poke, and the cleric one is, well, a cleric, which is more annoying than threatening.

Cm psychics also beat all of mega audino's cm sets, so while they are good against unprepared teams, mega audino can't set up as freely as say, musharna, or uxie.

 

[Funbot28]

Cm psychics also beat all of mega audino's cm sets, so while they are good against unprepared teams, mega audino can't set up as freely as say, musharna, or uxie.

But the thing that she has over CM psychics is that extra physical bulk, while also accessing a better defensive typing. And I have won many CM wars using Mega Audino against CM psychics running Psyshock

 

[boltsandbombers]

But the thing that she has over CM psychics is that extra physical bulk, while also accessing a better defensive typing. And I have won many CM wars using Mega Audino against CM psychics running Psyshock

Do you have any replays of this? Because I find it extremely hard to believe that a skilled player managed to lose a cm war with a CM Psychic type using psyshock against a mega Audino.

 

[ryan]

I know we aren't talking drops yet, but I want to nominate Stunfisk from C+ to B+. It's a really great anti-metagame Pokemon right now with how common Fletchinder and Magneton are, and even excluding that, now that we all have a really good reason to run it, it's pretty clear how great this Pokemon is. We don't have a ton of good Flying resists in NU, and Stunfisk perfectly covers that niche. It also gives us a great Klinklang check, which is important with the departure of Mega Camerupt and Seismitoad. Static is an incredible ability, and it pretty much single-handedly allows Stunfisk to fuck up VoltTurn teams by punishing U-turn users and cock-blocking Volt Switch users. It also threatens Garbodor and doesn't take much from Seed Bomb unless offensive. In general, this thing is just fat as shit and is a great anti-metagame defensive threat.

Tauros to S? It's such a great Pokemon, and there's very little opportunity cost to slap it onto a team thanks to its incredible power and Speed. The tier has slowed down quite a bit with Typhlosion's ban, and Tauros does a great job of punishing this because it's fast without being weak as piss. Killer coverage, incredible STAB, etc. Not much else to say about it.

Other stuff I'm not going to go into too heavy detail on but still think we should do, especially because A is empty and B+ is congested as shit:

Malamar A+ -> A: good Pokemon, punishes bulkier teams, but everyone carries an answer to it, and it doesn't put on any sort of immediate pressure, making it easy to respond to since it's not actually that bulky.
Gurdurr A- -> A: really really good in this metagame. fat as shit, offers a proactive pseudo Normal resist which is nice because it's not always easy to fit a Normal resist that beats Kanga onto teams, donks Sneasel and Klinklang which are rly popular
Pyroar A- -> A: strong as shit, people aren't quite as prepared for Fire-types now so there's less risk to running it, and a lot of common Fire resists take loads from Specs Hyper Voice. also fast.
Lanturn B+ -> A-: good anti-meta Pokemon, no more Seismitoad means less risk to running it since it threatens virtually every other Ground-type
Crustle B+ -> B: 90% of teams carry hazard removal and it's harder to punish free turns given up on hazard removal because there are fewer mons that completely shift games given one free turn
Pawniard B+ -> B: still a decent mon but mostly worse than Mawile imo. a +2 pawniard is hardly the end of the world, and quite a bit of Claydol in the meta so it's not even Defog-centric for hazard removal
Huntail and Gorebyss B+ -> B/B-: not much to say about these guys. smashpass might be strong in this meta but i haven't seen it in literally months and months, which is why I'm not suggesting a firm B-
Electivire B- -> B: magneton all over, fletchinder all over, breaks lots of common defensive cores because it's an electric-type that beats most common electric resists

 

[Adaire]

Beautiful sprites for a beautiful user :')

Magmortar A- ---> A+ I don't see why this is still A-, it's one of the best fire types if not the best in the tier. It's got such a good moveset it is very hard to counter. It can run specs, life orb, scarf, assault vest and even belly drum. It also stops lilligant and vivillion which are two big threats in the tier. It also has a good speed tier being able to outspeed samurott and lower while still being able to invest in hp.

Quagsire B+ ---> A-/A Quagisre is amazing right now, it beats all 4 of the mons that dropped (magneton with no HP grass, pinsir, fletchinder, kabutops) and it also stops major threats in the tier before like scyther, rhydon, malamar, sneasel etc. It's not just restricted to walling sweepers as it has an impressive bulk, it can also be used as set up sweeper with curse. It also benefited from one of the main mons over shadowing it that being seismitoad leaving the tier. I know I asked for quagsire to move up, but since of the drops I thought a more updated response would be good.

Haunter B+ ---> A- Haunter is very good in the current meta game, it's diverse movepool, high speed and power attacking capabilites is very worth of A, it has the ability to beat numerous top tier threats with it's great typing. It can run scarf which is a great revenge killer, life orb which makes use of it's movepool, or it could run the infamous substitute, disable set with eviolite, not a lot of mons get a free switch into haunter which is very usefull to the current offensive style NU is becoming due to the drops.

Rapidash D ---> C Rapidash is actually quite neat in NU right now, it has high speed and a good movepool, flash fire is also very helpful. It also hits a lot of the tier hard, things like fletch, kabutops, mantine all take a large amount of damage from wild charge, it can hit bulky rock types with drill run and it has a powerfull stab move in flare blitz. Overall a really solid mon.

Most of the drops I was going to say have been covered by hollywood so I focused more on rising some mons that deserve them.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I agree with Magmortar going to A+. It is the best fire type in the tier, no questions asked. Counters are close to non-existant, you're pretty much limited to faster offensive checks like Kangaskhan/Tauros/Archeops. It's also really fast for a wallbreaker, outspeeding the likes of Mesprit and Adamant Sawk. Great Lilligant check too.

As for Quagsire, I agree but at the same time I don't. Every Magneton in the tier runs HP Grass. If you're using HP Fire for Ferroseed you're doing it wrong (read: Sub + Charge Beam). It's not afraid to use it either if you have Quag on your team. With Modest it flatout OHKO's you everytime without even running Specs too. Pinsir beats you with ease, SD on the switch and Mold Breaker X-Scissor does the rest. Fletchinder can cripple you with Will-o-Wisp which is on every set really, that said you fully wall it. Kabutops can even run Giga Drain for Quag although I question your sanity if you decide to do so. All in all Quag is pretty cool and probably worth moving up.

Haunter faces huge competition from Mismagius, which is weaker but bulkier and faster. Also has the same options except it trades Sludge Bomb for Nasty Plot (and lol Heal Bell). That said I have no good argument not to move Haunter up.

Rapidash is pretty cool. I remember using it in a distant past as Sunny Day support. It's fast and catches those Rhydons off guard once you reveal Sunny Day. If they're dumb they'll stay in and take the Solarbeam too. And of course big healing with Morning Sun to alleviate the Flare Blitz recoil. I agree with rank C.

 

[Teddeh]

In support of almost every nomination that's been made so far, good job o.o
food for thought right now;
Mawile: A+ -> A
Is it just me or are you really not wanting to use steel types in the tier now almost every team carries a magneton? Mawile's defensive sets can be bopped by this making it a really unreliable pivot now and the offensive sets aswell, with also fletch in the tier resisting both stabs and carrying will-o more often than not. Kabu is also a good check and in general I feel like mawile isn't as good this meta.
Sneasel: A+ -> S
Along with tauros, having a threat this diverse and powerful, godly speed tier and can almost always get a kill. It's a really good top tier threat and it's really easy to slap it onto a team and see success. I have found success with every set I have used and more often than not can provide extreme pressure to teams.

Other notes would be that I think B+ is a bit high for stunfisk, B would seem more ideal this early on and maybe bump it up later? Pyroar I want to see in A+, it's an extreme top tier threat and can cause a huge amount of problems for teams, same goes for magmortar.

 

[Adaire]

Mawile: A+ -> A
Is it just me or are you really not wanting to use steel types in the tier now almost every team carries a magneton? Mawile's defensive sets can be bopped by this making it a really unreliable pivot now and the offensive sets aswell, with also fletch in the tier resisting both stabs and carrying will-o more often than not. Kabu is also a good check and in general I feel like mawile isn't as good this meta.
.

I definitely agree on moving mawile down, mawile was put A+ rank due to being able to run offensive and defensive very effectivly, now offensive is pretty bad so it's best use is it's defensive set which is good but not good enough to make it as high as top tier threats like tauros and lilligant and like you said, it gets wrecked by magneton either way, I would even go as far to say as A- or B+ are more suitable.

Sneasel: A+ -> S
Along with tauros, having a threat this diverse and powerful, godly speed tier and can almost always get a kill. It's a really good top tier threat and it's really easy to slap it onto a team and see success. I have found success with every set I have used and more often than not can provide extreme pressure to teams.

I have really mixed feelings about sneasel in S rank, it's combination of great typing, great speed and above average attack make for a deadly mon in the tier, although it's bulk is mediocre and using eviolite to fix this, it's strength is very underwhelming without an SD Boost although I'm not saying the Eviolite SD set is bad. Sneasel also has a lot of counters and checks which I feel is kind off deterring it away from S rank, things like Garbodor, Mawile, Audino, Hariyama and Quagsire all either wall it completely, or force sneasel to take a lot of damage. Life orb wears sneasel down extremely quickly with it's weakness to rocks, choice band is manageable to play around and eviolite previously said is underwhelming and still lacks enough bulk. Only in my opinion I think Sneasel should stay A+ but I wont deny the argument to make it S is convincing.

 

[Teddeh]

I have really mixed feelings about sneasel in S rank, it's combination of great typing, great speed and above average attack make for a deadly mon in the tier, although it's bulk is mediocre and using eviolite to fix this, it's strength is very underwhelming without an SD Boost although I'm not saying the Eviolite SD set is bad. Sneasel also has a lot of counters which I feel is kind off deterring it away from S rank, things like Garbodor, Mawile, Audino, Hariyama and Quagsire all either wall it completely, or force sneasel to take a lot of damage. Life orb wears sneasel down extremely quickly with it's weakness to rocks, choice band is manageable to play around and eviolite previously said is underwhelming and still lacks enough bulk. Only in my opinion I think Sneasel should stay A+ but I wont deny the argument to make it S is convincing.

Garb is no where near a counter since it takes over half from banded knock off and icicle crash can easily 2 hit ko after rocks on the defensive sets. Defensive mawile is a counter yes, however it's not going to be as popular now that magneton is in the tier and pairing magnets with sneasel is basically taking that away from him. Audino is a counter also, however sd mawile can potentially beat it after chip damage since it easily lives a dazzling gleam, hariyama also gets worn down extremely easily and I have to say that it prefers running guts now so i would say icicle crash easily does 40% from a banded sneasel? if not more. Quag also takes a huge chunk from knock / icicle crash from a banded sneasel meaning that it needs to recover stall to beat it and it would have to fight off the 30% flinch chance unless you got a burn from a scald. In general sneasel isn't really used that much for wall breaking, more cleaning and trapping, however it can also do both since banded sneasel still hits extremely hard with the amount of psychics and ice weak pokemon in the tier making it a huge threat.
edit: i'd say if anything the best offensive counter/check is gurdurr, but once you've knocked off the eviolite in the first switch in, you hit it extremely hard with icicle crash the next time :x

 

[Ares]

Just letting y'all know that I'll be working on a big update for this after the meta has stabled from the recent drops.

Continue to discuss, I'll keep all suggestions in mind.

 

[Disjunction]

I agree with

--> S
While it doesn't have much variation between sets, Sneasel performs a very impressive amount of roles in just one slot. The ability to outrun 90% of offensive Pokemon in the tier while simultaneously being able to check CM Psychic-type sweepers and crippling most defensive Pokemon with the strongest Knock Off in the tier is a very great niche. There is very little reason to not run this threat on Offense and balance loves to have it to combat Offense. Great, splashable mon that's been deserving of the rank for a while.

Other noms I agree with are-

A --> A+
Premiere wall breaker in the tier. Nigh impossible to prep for completely and powerful af.

D --> C
Very underrated mon imo. Used a dash squad to get reqs and it only got better with Seis leaving. With its unique combination of coverage options, there will be very few things able to switch into it safely.

A- -- A
Super cool gluemon rn. Beats klink, sneasel, kabu among others. Also a really good normal-type check, like holly said, which is huge.

I'd talk about fisk but I don't really like it much. I understand why people would want it bumped so I'm not going to complain about it.

 

[teal6]

I'm relatively new to the tier, and haven't played much in the way of top competitors, but one suggestion I'd have relative to the new drops:

Torterra from B -> B+

Torterra @ Life Orb / Earth Plate / Meadow Plate
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

The above set is the one I've been using - bit standard, but I found that having a ground type is definitely important with Analytic Magnetons running around in order to make powerful Volt Switching less of an option. Torterra's pretty good attack stat, as well as access to Rock Polish allows it to use a choice locked electric attack as an opportunity to get into a position to sweep.

I think this mon responds well to the metagame trends that come with the drops - Magneton as formerly stated, as well I have seen an uptick in the usage of Lanturn (which itself is responding to Magneton I believe). Torterra is able to easily take out either of those. Stone Edge can be used to either predict the Fletchinder switch in, or, if Tort is at full health, tank and Acrobatics and return kill Fletch... though you'll be death fodder after that.

Mega Audino remains a huge problem for this set, as Torterra can do frankly almost nothing to it, even with a Life Orb. Good partners would be strong Steel types, so again with the drops Magneton turns into a good option to pair up.

If the above set is not terribly efficient in the current meta, please let me know - definitely looking forward to finding out more about NU as I play and piecing together good teams through trial and error.

 

[Dentricos]

We got sum new mons. Gonna sugest a rank for all but pinsir.

Kabutops for A rank

This thing is a huge threat in and out of rain. It has quite a few solid checks and doesn't have rnough kick in it to make too many solid plays so I wouldn't recomend it for A+ or S.

Magneton for S+ rank

Lets be real. Magneton can very easily run
Choice Scarf: sturdy/magnet pull
Eviolite: analytic/magnet pull
Choic Specs: analytic/sturdy
And be extremely effective. It can make maximum use of voltswitch considering it isn't even weak to hazards. Toxic spikes and stealth rock are resisted. Not only that but dual stabs and hp grass/hp fire is amazing coverage.

Fletchinder for B+ rank

Fletch is very very run to use. It has interesting dual stabs and swords dance. But the meta without seiamitoad will be filled with water/rock/ground types. In other words I expect kabutops, quagsire, regirock, carracosta, and barbarcle. Fletch also stuggles from sr weakness which is not good to have in NU along with the fact it stuggles somewhat without a swords dance up.

 

[Ares]

Hey Dentricos we are leaving the new drops unranked for right now, as the meta is still unstable and we don't want to rush them into a rank.

Ill let you know when to start nomming them for a rank, probably this weekend.

 

[Kiyo]

Ferroseed A- --> B+
Magneton has turned Ferroseed into a liability, especially if it's SubChargeBeam. Magneton can set up all over Ferroseed thanks to magnet pull and get to +6 easily. So if you are using Ferroseed and the opponent has a Magneton, you essentially can't switch Ferroseed in until Magneton is dead since Magneton can come in on Ferroseed with impunity at any time and set up. Ferroseed still has great utility with its bulk, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, and Spikes, but Magneton is just way too prominent right now for Ferroseed to be as high as it is. Fletchinder sets up all over it too, while the addition of Kabutops means another mon that can get rid of Ferroseed's hazards and/or Knock Off its Eviolite.

Ok, I don't necessarily disagree with Ferroseed dropping, but a lot of what you said just seems like bullshit to me.

Sub + Charge Beam is a gimmick and should never see any competitive play imo, it literally traps Ferroseed, Klinklang, and Mawile (I'm not counting opposing Magneton because if you run HP Ground or Fire then why the fuck aren't you just running 4 attacks). On top of that, those pokemon aren't nearly common enough to warrant running Magnet Pull in general, Sturdy and Analytic are just better abilitys by default. I don't really see the argument of Fletchinder setting up all over it, because thats true for a ton of Pokemon in the tier, not just Ferroseed (especially if setting up all over it is getting one SD up as they switch to a check or counter). You also mention Kabutops beating Ferroseed when its the other way around? lol. Knock Off is a lot more niche than you're making it out to be and is more or less difficult to fit onto a good moveset without opening yourself up to losing to a lot more stuff (Waterfall, Stone Edge, Rapid Spin, and Aqua Jet are all almost indispensible). If Kabutops wants to Rapid Spin vs Ferroseed its losing a ton of HP to Iron Barbs, while Ferro just saps more HP with Leech Seed or sets the hazards back up?

Again, I don't disagree with Ferroseed dropping. Just not for the reasons you listed.

 

[ryan]

Magmortar probably shouldn't go passed flat A. It's obviously stupid strong, but unlike Typhlosion before it and Pyroar now, Magmortar is really slow and frail for an offensive Pokemon, making it pretty mediocre against offense and only good against slow balance, which is pretty much non-existent. Most balanced teams use defensive pivots in lieu of just generally bulky Pokemon (think Xatu, Lanturn, Mawile, Pelipper, Togetic, Audino kind of counts because Wish, Musharna, etc). At most, balanced teams will have maybe one or two Pokemon that are slower than Magmortar, die to it, and don't pivot out. Even the common bulky Pokemon balanced teams run that don't carry U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass are usually bulky enough to take a hit and threaten Magmortar in return (Gurdurr, Stunfisk, Claydol). It's definitely a strong Pokemon, but I think teams are just naturally prepared enough for Magmortar and Pokemon like it to keep it from being really effective. We also have other slow wallbreakers that are just a lot better at the job and can even run Sturdy to keep them in longer (Sawk, Magneton).

I also think people are REALLY overselling the danger of running Steel-types in this metagame. Analytic Magneton is infinitely more popular than Magnet Pull, especially because of how scared people are of using Steel-types. Sub Charge Beam Magneton exists, but it's not common at all because it's not very good outside of setting up on Ferroseed, and Specs HP Fire does the same job while being better against teams without Ferroseed and without letting Ferroseed get up three layers of Spikes.