I don't have an opinion right now about Clefable but I think the majority of the arguments to move it up or keep it where it is are both waay too subjective. We know Clefable has bulk, we know it's versatile but nobody makes the comparison of its effectiveness to the rest of S. Clefable is by no means as meta defining as something like landorus or altaria and the jury is still out on whether it is as effective. The current meta isn't too kind to Clefable, with the popularity of fairies in general, most teams run steel types and while Clefable has a way of getting around then, it's piss-poor offensive and even defensive stats prevent it from reliably beating them. On the other hand, Clefable singlehandedly walls a very large circle of teams by virtue of its typing and ability and nobody can deny how difficult it is to wear down. I just want to see people comparing Clefable to other mons in the rank rather than just shouting out all it's qualifies and flaws. I personally could see it moving up moreso than staying down but it's really close.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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How are its stats not a problem? It's very weak without multiple boosts, and because of its 95/73/90 defenses it barely avoids 2HKOs from stuff it's supposed to check (=it's not hard to muscle through, it can get overwhelmed). "0 opportunity cost, amazing typing, excellent movepool, amazing abilities, superb splashability" I agree with all that and that's why it's A+, but it's not threatening or metagame defining like other S mons are. When building a team I think of how I'm going to deal with MMetagross, Keldeo or Landorus. I don't really think of how I'm going to deal with Clefable. Depending on it's coverage move it loses to things like SpD Talon, SpD Skarm, Gengar, Heatran, Bisharp, Gliscor, MVenusaur, MMeta, Scizor, Excadrill etc; every team has at least 1-2 mons that can deal with Clef anyway, and even if you somehow don't you won't have trouble breaking through it with strong neutral hits or boosters (or if it's Unaware, it gets worn down pretty easily). Clef should stay A+.
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To take a small break from reading these....arguments, I'll respond to this and just say that Scizor stayed B cause team didn't really feel like a jump to B+ was felt very strongly among us. Obviously it's a solid check to fairies but the reality is that it actually doesn't switch well into a lot of them and the same deal in facing offensive Psychics like Latios. A lot of its effectiveness is riding off of its band set since that immediate power right now is what's needed to be this check to offense. Yeah Mega Scizor I guess is a factor to, granted not huge but still sort of important considering it's gained a lot of usage for that better defensive utility that is more appreciated at times than regular Scizors offensive one. So for time being it's not going to B+.
Also fyi I removed the voting aspect of the team for those that keep mentioning this maybe like two rank changes ago when the thread started up again. It made these silly ranking placements and prolonged results longer than they normally should've. It worked easier in XY where this wasn't too much to take into account but ORAS is always changing as such ranking needs to reflect that in a much more faster manner. Pretty much ranking is done by general group consensus at this point so there you have it.
I tried to argue for clef to S on page 20 and I pretty much debunked every switch in mentioned. Nothing counters Clefable. Either through crippling w/ t wave or hitting super effectively with LO three attacks.
How does Jirachi like to be paralyzed? How does it like Knock off or LO 252+ Fire blast?
Tentacruel and Venusaur are destroyed by Psychock
ikr,all steel types,but clef doesnt care as most of the clefs either carry F-blast or Flamethrower,it has a very versatile movepool as it is able to function as many things like,a supportive heal bell user,wish offensive,wish status,bulky attacking rocks,offensive speedy attacker,CM destroyer,CM fast stored power,CM bulky offense SP etc,with its movepool and its ability to stay on the field with setting up calm minds do make this fairy a force to deal with as it counters many pokemon,also if you think that heatran counters it,lets see how it fairs against a plus 2 Focus blast,and yes i admit that it has a low chance to miss but with leftovers,softboiled,moonlight,wish,heal bell,aromatherapy goes beyond than any pokemon that heals,as its able to set calm minds with its longevity increased with leftovers,softboiled,moonlight,wish,also if there are any pokemon that want to status it,even if its unaware,it still has aromatherapy and heal bell to not support only itself but its teammates too. S Rank
Honestly this alone shows me that you kinda missed the point but I'll humor you.
The post below yours covers this nicely.
But they're crippled, which is the point (and Ferrothorn is free CMs as is Roar-less Heatran???).
I wasn't aware people ran Bold max hp/def CM Fable, but ok! This Alt variant is the one that Clef does awesome against.
Oops, I forgot that those ~puny defenses~ were supposed to be standing up to unresisted, Dragon Danced, Pixilated STABed 102 BP moves from base 110 Attack. My bad.
Again, max/max+ Fable lol
I'm not sure these two calcs do a very good job of disproving my argument, they actually kinda prove my point...
Well half of what makes Clefable so good is that it's kinda hard to push ~prior damage~ onto it!
As I said before, Clef shouldn't be countering DD Alt, but seeing as the DDer's counters kinda crumple to the mix set, it is very strong against that.
Which you shouldn't be running xD
Protect-less Diancie is... iffy, and if I really wanted a boosting one I'd much rather use Rock Polish...
Well it isn't supposed to...
I think you might have some issues if Lop is switching into Clef and that Encore is probably gonna be seen a million miles away so...)
The argument is that its resilience against all the passive damage being thrown around makes it very easy to be in "fucking pristine shape"
My experience says otherwise, but ok!
Well I've been in agreement with you on this from the start lol
The 4th moveslot isn't the S-rank part, it's the first 3! The 4th moveslot only serves to help the first 3 out depending on the team's needs.
Again, thank you for missing the point.
Ok so clefable should be S rank in my opinion. People don't use its large af movepool enough on ladder, but in tours etc it's pretty common to see a lure Clefable. It literally has the potential to beat all of its 'counters' due to access to moves such as psyshock, ice beam, thunder bolt, focus blast, fire blast, and knock off. People don't seem to realise that this is a mon you must have at least 2 checks to or a solid af counter. It also has the potential to run lure sets such as babari berry, counter which fuck over mega metagross and mega scizor. Access to moves such as encore mean that mega venusaur can be destroyed by an encore cm psyshock variant. It's just generally a mon you cannot take lightly and every team must have more than 1 way of dealing with! Its ridiculous that a mon like keldeo (who has multiple hard counter) is S rank and clefable isn't.
Ok Clef is amazing but is it really an S Rank mon? I mean it barely doesn't get 2HKO'd by stuff and is more of a utility check than anything else. It can of course be tweaked to fit your teams needs with Ice Beam/Flamethrower or what have you in the last slot. But the thing that really surprises me here is that you're talking about LO 3 attacks fable as if its an actual thing! Clefable is probably being nominated for S on the account of the defensive versitality that it brings to a team and definately not on the basis of it offensive prowess. TWave Clef is legit thought I'll give you that, most of its regular counters and checks such as Mega Metagross and Mega Charizard Y as well as Gengar hate Thunder Wave :). Again just restating that 3 attacks LO fable should not be a thing lol,because its bulk is terrible and it doesn't fulfil any defensive role in that case,which is kind of its entire selling point. Being one of the most splashable glue mons for a bulky team. Also Jirachi doesn't exactly care about knock off from clefable piddly squat attack and on top of that it has reliable recovery zzz
EDIT: The below post is pretty much what I wanted to say lol,I feel bad now ;;. Also it doesn't have 4MSS the last slot is supposed to be tailored to what your team needs, that doesn't necessarily mean that its cramped for room in its moveset.
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Idk why you'd run max SpA Clefable because it sacrifices bulk and the whole reason it should be going to S is becaue of how it blanket checks a lot of shit, but with no bulk investment bar HP you literally can't survive a gust of wind compared to original bulk investment, LO + 3 Atks Clefable is legit, but that set is by no reason why it should be going to S in the first place.
Edit: I think this is the second time I have to pull up this post about the whole 4MSS argument.
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryAM said:
0- Atk Life Orb Clefable Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 200-237 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Clefable > S This is gonna be long cause I rather not try to further go on about this nom unless I really have to.
Ok so I'm gonna explain my stance on the matter, hopefully it's part of the ranking teams as well considering this is what we talk about and people wanted our opinion on this. For those that don't know this is speaking as someone who didn't advocate this before last time it was brought up, granted the meta change a bit, but I do now. I think Clefable should be at S at this point in time of the meta-game, plain and simple. The hazard centric meta-game has put more emphasis on defensive components that are hindered less by these hazards and or immune to them, with Clefables Magic Guard variant being the big factor of this one. This is just one variant of Clefable that has enormous advantages right now on defensive minded semi-stall, balance, or bulky offensive teams. Now in regards to its Unaware variant, this set paired up with reliable hazard removers primarily Starmie, Skarmory, Zapdos, Tentacruel as some examples gives it leverage amongst extremely formidable threats in the meta-game that teams are either unprepared for, like M-Latias, or simply dangerous by themselves such as Dragon Dance M-Altaria. Mixed defense Unaware CM is one of the few counter-plays left that defensive teams have in order to combat Manaphy who alone has the ability to dismantle these teams without a concrete backbone against it. I can't even begin to express how important it is for slower teams to have answers to dangerous threats like DDance M-Altaria, TG Manaphy, CM Stored Power M-Latias, CM M-Slowbro, CM Reuniclus, and the list goes on in just one package for CM Unaware. As a defensive Pokemon the utility it is able to realistically provide shouldn't just put the emphasis on a power output like the current S rank mons we see now which has been the focus of some arguments that completely miss the point.
The small nuances that each of the main variants can provide is the big selling point in improving Clefable's overall utility to a team. Magic Guard has a variety of options that can be tailored to a teams needs such as the SR / CM variant able to provide rocks while providing the team a defensive set up sweeper, the variety of coverage moves such as Ice Beam and Flamethrower are simply chosen by the player to accommodate a teams need depending on which coverage or utility is necessary for the area of battle that is being focused on, i.e. high ladder, small tour, or big tour play. The amount of legitimate effective varieties of Clefable simply surpasses that of many of the A+ ranked Pokemon. The realization that Clefables assets in regards to its versatility that people are becoming more and more aware of everyday needs to be stronger emphasized in the rankings and we need to take a step back and realize that it's a premiere utility mon that simply shines very strongly in the meta or is able to.
One could argue, and people have been, that it has poor defensive stats as such it doesn't have the consistency to maintain itself as a defensive threat. Then we consider the cases being made about 4MSS and how this applies to Clefable. These two points primarily to put it bluntly over the course of time has proven to myself to be utter bullshit. You have something that what people would consider a glue mon but isn't like a glue mon such as Hippowdon. All of the extra assets it has under its belts just gives it a totally different dynamic in the utility department, the utility that has the potential to increase not only the power of itself but the team members associated with it. Clefables presence is so out there that people will legitimately throw out their behemoths of a threat into it so that Clefable doesn't give itself an opportunity and potentially get out control. This just leaves them open now to whatever the user of Clefable can have up their sleeves. All the offensive steel switch ins and poison switch ins coming in with the idea of no opportunity cost only to get hit with a Thunder Wave. Games being played to not reveal the Clefable set only to let it set up thinking you're safe with something like SpDef Gliscor to just get hit with Ice Beam. Also the whole "well Gliscor is declining in usage so it isn't a huge necessity anymore" yeah but you know what isn't declining that has the same typing and is one of the most dominant threats in our meta-game right now? Landorus. How the hell was this missed as a relevant target of Ice Beam.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This brings me up to the case about its stats being mediocre. Please don't tell me its stats are mediocre when it's able to survive this while I use the standard MG spread and the strongest hit that Landorus is going to give it without taking into account any sort of extra aspects. I'm not gonna bore you with a wall of calcs with the illusion that it further legitimizes my point but let's stop fooling ourselves in thinking its defensive stats are bad when you take into account it's weak to two types, with each Pokemon primarily considered those type with the ability to be exploited, while being one of the best non mega Knock Off absorbers, and further enhancing the necessity of. It's stomaching some huge hits for teams on any given day and if being a punching bag at that moment with the ability to outlast these hits is how the team is going to meet its end game then yes outlasting your counters and defensively being able to blanket check and provide relief for the team is an extremely great asset to have.
The difference with the majority of the A+ ranked Pokemon in this regard if looking at it from a defensive stand point is stuff like Heatran and Gliscor have much more concrete checks and counters just by their typing an move options alone. Heatran and Gliscor primarily have big issues with a variety of water types, some of them being very prominent in the tier such as Manaphy and Keldeo with very little ways to hinder them outside of very specific sets such as extremely rare Power Herb Tran and SubToxic Gliscor, with the latter being only a very shaky momentary answer to most of the better waters. Clefable on the other hand primarily has issues with steels and poisons, but doesn't necessarily just autolose to them or are extreme battling constraints right away starting from teambuilder, to team preview, to in game battle scenarios because its move options aren't niche at all and complete viable and effective on multiple occasions. These can't be switched into Clefable with no opportunity cost because there's always the real possibility you're gonna get hit with something like Thunder Wave or Knock Off that will ruin somethings effectiveness tremendously. If Heatran gets hit with either of these you just turned the monster that is Heatran into a liability lmfao like that's the most hilarious thing to read or see, a Heatran becoming a liability because of a Clefable. That just paved the way for something like M-Scizor to net a hit with Superpower or something like M-Metagross to evolve safely pre-evo and hit it with EQ / Earthquake. This a definitely support.
I could go on forever and tell you the scenarios that Clefable benefits itself but just consider all those points as to why we're trying to explain why it's S instead of resorting to just power outputs to the S ranked mons. No we're not gonna do an S- we're gonna have one sub-division of S, aka the top stuff. We're gonna establish that these are the top stuff in terms of effectiveness and what they're actually capable of doing. Yeah no shit some things will be better than others, you wouldn't look at A rank right now and be like "Oh yeah Rotom-W puts in an equal amount of work like Char-Y does".... Clefable is capable of blanket checking a bunch of the tier and has dictated the way we view the Fairy type and while I was hesitant to say it's S before overtime playing games and just seeing this being able to maintain splash-ability because of its utility aspects is definitely convincing enough to myself that it's notch above the A+ ranked Pokemon right now.
tl;dr You're a lazy moron for not reading this but since you clearly didn't and will probably miss every single point I mentioned anyways, Clef to S.
Ok so I'm gonna explain my stance on the matter, hopefully it's part of the ranking teams as well considering this is what we talk about and people wanted our opinion on this. For those that don't know this is speaking as someone who didn't advocate this before last time it was brought up, granted the meta change a bit, but I do now. I think Clefable should be at S at this point in time of the meta-game, plain and simple. The hazard centric meta-game has put more emphasis on defensive components that are hindered less by these hazards and or immune to them, with Clefables Magic Guard variant being the big factor of this one. This is just one variant of Clefable that has enormous advantages right now on defensive minded semi-stall, balance, or bulky offensive teams. Now in regards to its Unaware variant, this set paired up with reliable hazard removers primarily Starmie, Skarmory, Zapdos, Tentacruel as some examples gives it leverage amongst extremely formidable threats in the meta-game that teams are either unprepared for, like M-Latias, or simply dangerous by themselves such as Dragon Dance M-Altaria. Mixed defense Unaware CM is one of the few counter-plays left that defensive teams have in order to combat Manaphy who alone has the ability to dismantle these teams without a concrete backbone against it. I can't even begin to express how important it is for slower teams to have answers to dangerous threats like DDance M-Altaria, TG Manaphy, CM Stored Power M-Latias, CM M-Slowbro, CM Reuniclus, and the list goes on in just one package for CM Unaware. As a defensive Pokemon the utility it is able to realistically provide shouldn't just put the emphasis on a power output like the current S rank mons we see now which has been the focus of some arguments that completely miss the point.
The small nuances that each of the main variants can provide is the big selling point in improving Clefable's overall utility to a team. Magic Guard has a variety of options that can be tailored to a teams needs such as the SR / CM variant able to provide rocks while providing the team a defensive set up sweeper, the variety of coverage moves such as Ice Beam and Flamethrower are simply chosen by the player to accommodate a teams need depending on which coverage or utility is necessary for the area of battle that is being focused on, i.e. high ladder, small tour, or big tour play. The amount of legitimate effective varieties of Clefable simply surpasses that of many of the A+ ranked Pokemon. The realization that Clefables assets in regards to its versatility that people are becoming more and more aware of everyday needs to be stronger emphasized in the rankings and we need to take a step back and realize that it's a premiere utility mon that simply shines very strongly in the meta or is able to.
One could argue, and people have been, that it has poor defensive stats as such it doesn't have the consistency to maintain itself as a defensive threat. Then we consider the cases being made about 4MSS and how this applies to Clefable. These two points primarily to put it bluntly over the course of time has proven to myself to be utter bullshit. You have something that what people would consider a glue mon but isn't like a glue mon such as Hippowdon. All of the extra assets it has under its belts just gives it a totally different dynamic in the utility department, the utility that has the potential to increase not only the power of itself but the team members associated with it. Clefables presence is so out there that people will legitimately throw out their behemoths of a threat into it so that Clefable doesn't give itself an opportunity and potentially get out control. This just leaves them open now to whatever the user of Clefable can have up their sleeves. All the offensive steel switch ins and poison switch ins coming in with the idea of no opportunity cost only to get hit with a Thunder Wave. Games being played to not reveal the Clefable set only to let it set up thinking you're safe with something like SpDef Gliscor to just get hit with Ice Beam. Also the whole "well Gliscor is declining in usage so it isn't a huge necessity anymore" yeah but you know what isn't declining that has the same typing and is one of the most dominant threats in our meta-game right now? Landorus. How the hell was this missed as a relevant target of Ice Beam.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This brings me up to the case about its stats being mediocre. Please don't tell me its stats are mediocre when it's able to survive this while I use the standard MG spread and the strongest hit that Landorus is going to give it without taking into account any sort of extra aspects. I'm not gonna bore you with a wall of calcs with the illusion that it further legitimizes my point but let's stop fooling ourselves in thinking its defensive stats are bad when you take into account it's weak to two types, with each Pokemon primarily considered those type with the ability to be exploited, while being one of the best non mega Knock Off absorbers, and further enhancing the necessity of. It's stomaching some huge hits for teams on any given day and if being a punching bag at that moment with the ability to outlast these hits is how the team is going to meet its end game then yes outlasting your counters and defensively being able to blanket check and provide relief for the team is an extremely great asset to have.
The difference with the majority of the A+ ranked Pokemon in this regard if looking at it from a defensive stand point is stuff like Heatran and Gliscor have much more concrete checks and counters just by their typing an move options alone. Heatran and Gliscor primarily have big issues with a variety of water types, some of them being very prominent in the tier such as Manaphy and Keldeo with very little ways to hinder them outside of very specific sets such as extremely rare Power Herb Tran and SubToxic Gliscor, with the latter being only a very shaky momentary answer to most of the better waters. Clefable on the other hand primarily has issues with steels and poisons, but doesn't necessarily just autolose to them or are extreme battling constraints right away starting from teambuilder, to team preview, to in game battle scenarios because its move options aren't niche at all and complete viable and effective on multiple occasions. These can't be switched into Clefable with no opportunity cost because there's always the real possibility you're gonna get hit with something like Thunder Wave or Knock Off that will ruin somethings effectiveness tremendously. If Heatran gets hit with either of these you just turned the monster that is Heatran into a liability lmfao like that's the most hilarious thing to read or see, a Heatran becoming a liability because of a Clefable. That just paved the way for something like M-Scizor to net a hit with Superpower or something like M-Metagross to evolve safely pre-evo and hit it with EQ / Earthquake. This a definitely support.
I could go on forever and tell you the scenarios that Clefable benefits itself but just consider all those points as to why we're trying to explain why it's S instead of resorting to just power outputs to the S ranked mons. No we're not gonna do an S- we're gonna have one sub-division of S, aka the top stuff. We're gonna establish that these are the top stuff in terms of effectiveness and what they're actually capable of doing. Yeah no shit some things will be better than others, you wouldn't look at A rank right now and be like "Oh yeah Rotom-W puts in an equal amount of work like Char-Y does".... Clefable is capable of blanket checking a bunch of the tier and has dictated the way we view the Fairy type and while I was hesitant to say it's S before overtime playing games and just seeing this being able to maintain splash-ability because of its utility aspects is definitely convincing enough to myself that it's notch above the A+ ranked Pokemon right now.
tl;dr You're a lazy moron for not reading this but since you clearly didn't and will probably miss every single point I mentioned anyways, Clef to S.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
My problem with Clefable to S rank arguments are that they're all based off lure sets. A lure set is limited in conventional operation (and no, you can't just dismiss this as "pure bullshit", it's a fact), and it's every bit a relevant fact as the fact that Starmie can run HP Fire and Ice Beam, Garchomp can run tankchomp and HP Ice, Manaphy can run Scarf lure with Ice Beam to beat Thundurus etc etc etc etc. Let's not forget teams are naturally pretty strong against Clefable these days due to the fact that everybody has to prepare for the totally not broken S rank, Mega Altaria - who can also end up taking Clefable's team slot. Basically, it's pretty easy to prepare for, and the lure sets are just that, lure sets.
I don't think they can be even be termed lure sets because Clef is just so versatile. It really only needs Moonblast and Soft-Boiled for sure, then the rest of the moves, ev spread, and ability can all be adapted to fit your team. Clef versatility and effectiveness in all the sets it runs makes me say S
He means that Clef uses its 4th move slot to lure in one of its many checks. I think. W/e clef has dethroned Keldeo as the weakest S rank so that's cool I guess.
Anyways I have a nom. Celebi to a-
When looking at the A rank Pokémon, Celebi really isn't on par with the rest of them. It's a cool mon that can Nasty/Sub/Dry/w/e Pass and Counter Keldeo while also checking the things a bulky grass type is meant to check, but what it does really isn't A rank worthy. Most of the time I either use it or face it, it's just... there. It'll be a switch in to Keldeo or other thing it checks, but it's never really able to fulfill its role to its fullest, which is something an A rank mon shouldn't have to worry about. Yeah, it can pass a boost to a special attacker, but oftentimes what it can do isn't what it actually does. It mainly acts as a pivot and can only truly shine when facing a favorable matchup. If an opposing team has a solid check or two to it, then Celebi is just gonna be a pivot and nothing more. I guess the best comparison to make would be mega Venusaur, but mega Venusaur handles a shiton of things Celebi can't, such as Band Azu, Malt, Mega Diancie, Landorus (tho Celebi can if no sludge wave but sludge wave is rly common and psychic isn't), Bisharp, TTar, etc. Celebis defensive utility is nice but it isn't as good as Mega Venusaur, and the advantage of not taking up a mega slot isn't enough to mitigate that issue. It fits in way better in A- where the things there shine well in certain scenarios but fall flat in others.
Clefable is really much more limited than people are letting on. Unaware is weak to Scald Manaphy so it doesn't really stop it, plus Rest Rain Dance just beats Clef, and Magic Guard loses that ability to stop +3 Manaphy or any of the set up sweepers that are so common in OU. It really doesn't blanket check too much of the tier when it loses to them with only ~10-20% prior damage, meaning that when it switches in it basically has to Soft-Boiled back to full to be able to continue checking them when they simply switch out. Godawful 95 Special Attack makes it really weak, too:
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 236-282 (60.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 226-268 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It can't KO a negative SpDef natured Kyurem after Rocks, which it's weak to, with a STAB Super Effective move. Sure the Life Orb set can KO but my point is that Clef is incredibly weak hitting, even at +2 its Super Effective attacks don't hit that hard. Life Orb sets also miss their Leftovers, meaning that Thundurus and Latios can break through easily. Having random coverage on Clef just to hit something like Gliscor with Ice Beam that most of the time is going to be a wasted move slot is a large drawback, and oh yeah:
0 SpA Clefable Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 228-272 (64.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Again, it can't actually KO because it's so weak. Clef at full can check a bunch of threats, yes, but Magic Guard is set up on by an unbelievable amount of things regardless of any coverage which again 9 times out of 10 you won't see because the standard Moonblast and Flamethrower combo is much more useful for it (Sub CM Raikou, SpDef Talonflame - Thunderbolt does 30 fucking percent because Clef is so goddamn weak, Manaphy - Tbolt does 40% max, Nasty Celebi, and so much sets up on it unless it has really uncommon coverage - SD Gliscor, DD Gyara, so on). Not to mention the fact that it's beaten completely by standard rest CM Gothitelle, which not many people have mentioned.
Oh, and the fact that Clef's Unaware set has no good recovery, either using two moveslots and causing tons of 50/50s with Wish/Protect, or Moonlight which is Weather dependent and has shitty 8 PP, and the fact that Clef needs to recover pretty much every time it switches in on something means that 8 PP is nowhere near good enough. Rain teams beat Clef, unaware dies to Scald burns and it's not Unaware of STAB and Rain boosts and can't recover with Moonlight and MG loses to things like Manaphy and Kabutops.
Basically, it loses to too many things to be S-Ranked based on its ability to blanket check things, especially when it loses to them with only the tiniest bit of damage.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 236-282 (60.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 226-268 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It can't KO a negative SpDef natured Kyurem after Rocks, which it's weak to, with a STAB Super Effective move. Sure the Life Orb set can KO but my point is that Clef is incredibly weak hitting, even at +2 its Super Effective attacks don't hit that hard. Life Orb sets also miss their Leftovers, meaning that Thundurus and Latios can break through easily. Having random coverage on Clef just to hit something like Gliscor with Ice Beam that most of the time is going to be a wasted move slot is a large drawback, and oh yeah:
0 SpA Clefable Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 228-272 (64.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Again, it can't actually KO because it's so weak. Clef at full can check a bunch of threats, yes, but Magic Guard is set up on by an unbelievable amount of things regardless of any coverage which again 9 times out of 10 you won't see because the standard Moonblast and Flamethrower combo is much more useful for it (Sub CM Raikou, SpDef Talonflame - Thunderbolt does 30 fucking percent because Clef is so goddamn weak, Manaphy - Tbolt does 40% max, Nasty Celebi, and so much sets up on it unless it has really uncommon coverage - SD Gliscor, DD Gyara, so on). Not to mention the fact that it's beaten completely by standard rest CM Gothitelle, which not many people have mentioned.
Oh, and the fact that Clef's Unaware set has no good recovery, either using two moveslots and causing tons of 50/50s with Wish/Protect, or Moonlight which is Weather dependent and has shitty 8 PP, and the fact that Clef needs to recover pretty much every time it switches in on something means that 8 PP is nowhere near good enough. Rain teams beat Clef, unaware dies to Scald burns and it's not Unaware of STAB and Rain boosts and can't recover with Moonlight and MG loses to things like Manaphy and Kabutops.
Basically, it loses to too many things to be S-Ranked based on its ability to blanket check things, especially when it loses to them with only the tiniest bit of damage.
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People saying LO +3 attacks is weak is a silly thing to say. Clefable isn't a wallbreaker, it can set up to dangerous levels and do some damage but at +0 it's not going to be doing much. However, what I find to be so dangerous about Clefable is that it's so difficult to stop it. Either its immune to status or its immune to set up. I used 3 attacks to weaken common switch ins, for example I ran it with offensive mega venusaur to lure Heatran & Ferrothorn w/ Focus blast. Just pick what you're weak to and you're good to go.
+6 Thunderbolt does more than +0 moonblast
+6 Thunderbolt does more than +0 moonblast
Im going to nominate Mega Scizor for S RANK
Mega Scizor is one of the most diverse mons in the metagame atm running a variety of sets such as defog,bulyk sd, offensive sd etc. With its Amazing typing Mega Scizor can set up on almost anything with its only weakness being to fire. In a metagame with powerful fairies such as mega alt clefable azumaril and others mega scizor becomes even better than previously. With its 70/140/100 bulk 150 attack and Technician there's not much that this mon cannot do. IMO mega scizor has finally reached the level of m gross m alt and lando and deserves s rank. (1 weakness and 8 resist is crazy) Mega scizor is prob one of the easiest if not the easiest mon to build around and can play many roles from sweeper to defogger to u turner on its team
Mega Scizor is one of the most diverse mons in the metagame atm running a variety of sets such as defog,bulyk sd, offensive sd etc. With its Amazing typing Mega Scizor can set up on almost anything with its only weakness being to fire. In a metagame with powerful fairies such as mega alt clefable azumaril and others mega scizor becomes even better than previously. With its 70/140/100 bulk 150 attack and Technician there's not much that this mon cannot do. IMO mega scizor has finally reached the level of m gross m alt and lando and deserves s rank. (1 weakness and 8 resist is crazy) Mega scizor is prob one of the easiest if not the easiest mon to build around and can play many roles from sweeper to defogger to u turner on its team
Mur
If you're not first you're last
Well rising something to S rank is always a big deal so a specified discussion on the topic of clefable was a very good idea for the council on their part. Now the S rank to me is where the centerpieces of the tier reside which is exactly why I fell that clefable should be S. The fact that clefable can find it's way on any team archetype to do basically whatever you need it to just shows how important of a mon clef is to the tier, hell I'd even goes as far to say it's a staple on balance and bulky offense at the moment. the "4mss" argument is one I never liked both in suspects and discussing a mons viability rank because usually its either misinterpreted for the mons versatility (think greninja or Mluke) or it's very minor to a point where it's a flaw but not enough to hold a mon back entirely. So now that that is out of the way clefable is similar to greninja in that its "4mss" is just a misinterpretation of it's versatility. Really clef only needs cm/moonblast/healing move to function while the 4th move can be tailored to whatever the team needs. This is a very important trait which is common among the pinnacles of ou which also aids in clefable's splashability(is this a word??) on teams. I'm not really going to go too much into detail on all the different sets of clefable because they have mostly been discussed already and it is very apparent that everyone knows how easily clef finds it's way onto teams because of it. Also Id like to mention how clef is one of those mons that can cheese it's way around it's checks and counters with various moves or sets. Yeah clef is weak to gross and scizor etc and thats a flaw I'l give the other side that but again none of these mons are safe switching into a twave or fire blast or whatever this beast maybe running. Also the weak stats argument does not seem to strong to me at this point. Especially in this hazard based meta a mon with magic guard, a fantastic defensive typing, and reliable recovery is not exactly easy to wear down, tbh volturn is almost the only way to reliably ensure to keep clef unhealthy (lol thats what volturn does though). Clefable is honestly just a very low risk/high reward mon with very little(some may even say none) opportunity cost which is very why clefable should be S rank.
I've honestly thought of Mzor to be on this level for awhile now but in all honesty I would wait a little bit to make this nom imo. This is mainly due to clefable being potentially brought up to S and is the main topic of discussion right now which can play a big role in where this nom could go. Mega Scizor is extremely threatening in almost every aspect through stats, movepool, and typing and especially what it checks and counters using these traits. Being one of like 3 or so Mgross counters in the tier says a lot and hard checking every fairy in the tier is also a huge deal as well since we all know how dominant the fairy types in oras are. I could go on but yeah Mega scizor is getting better and is quickly closing in on Mgross as the most dominant steel type but again I would have waited to make this nom untill a little bit later on down the road but when the time comes I'l probably support it assuming this beast continues to get better.
First things first: m-alt, m-meta and lando are s in part due to how influential they are towards teambuilding. This means that players will often bring two checks to them; however, when I teambuild I don't necessarily prepare for M-Scizor as it usually just comes naturally - and when it doesn't its not that much of a biggie as it is comparatively easy to handle. M-Scizor is too naturally checked to be a good candidate for S rank, as chances are when you are building you get your check for it by chance. M-Scizor is very good, but it isn't metagame defining - especially not on the level of the current S ranks (bar possibly Keldeo, but imo that should come down anyway - that's a topic for another day). In addition, Scizor doesn't force two checks in the same way as the S ranks do as its checks are not only natural, but they also shut it down completely once they're in as they are usually Fire- or Steel-types that resist its dual STABs and, as such, you will not need to put more than one way of handling it on a team.
I argue that we ought to promote reuniclus (
) from it's current rank (it's current rank being B-) to B rank (or even B+ rank, unless that seems totaly absurd...). With access to calm mind to boost it's special stats, reliable recovery via recover, magic guard, a solid STAB move that hits specially bulkier pokemon as a bonus (I am reffering to psyshock) and coverage through focus blast or shadow ball, reuiniclus is a prominent threat to stall as reuniclus not only sets up on common stall-pokemon, being a moderately obesse pokemon with solid defensive typing, it also and laughs at chachinnating attempts from opposing stall-pokemon to deal residual damage to it through status and entry hazards. Despite all that however, reuniclus is still very very weak to mega sableye (a commonly used pokemon on stall), bisharp, tyranitar (with crunch) and gengar (unless it has set enough calm minds to sponge 2 of gengar's shadow balls prior to gengar trying to check it) and offense is quite troublesome to it as it checks it without much trouble (hence why i am hesitant to appoint reuniclus for B+ myself with offense gradually gaining more and more usage...). En masse, reuniclus is a noticeable threat to stall that, despite being weak to common offensive threats, still has place in teams that compliment it.
AraEdit: Hey, welcome to Smogon :) Just fyi, if you have two arguments at the same time, you should post them both in the same post. I fixed it for you this time.
I wholeheartedly support demoting cloyster to unranked (or even blacklisting him) because, not only is this pokemon flat-out awful, it serves absolutely no noteworthy niche in the OU metagame everything this pokemon does, another pokemon does better, besides this pokemon sparks unnecessary arguments amongst the OU community, we might as well blacklist it.As I looked through the D ranks, there's something else that needs to go besides Mega Glalie.
D -> Unranked
Cloyster is bad. Plain and simple. Such a horrendous defensive typing means super effective physical hits can still put a chunk of damage into it, meaning it literally cannot set up without entry hazards off the field. After being brought down to its Focus Sash,it has no priority,(oops I forgot it had Ice Shard; not like it has room for it though) meaning it's easy to revenge kill with literally any mon that carries a priority attack. Let's not forget that Steel-types wall it almost completely and that an uninvested Hydro Pump won't be doing a heck of a lot even at +2. Its only niche that I can see is its ability to get past the Sturdy and Focus Sashes of foes, but I'd rather just use Mega Heracross against the vast majority of them. Yes, Cloyster is (supposed to be) a cleaner while M-Hera is a wallbreaker, but Cloyster can't even clean and fulfill the niche that it's supposed to. Lemme put this in perspective:
252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 225-270 (77.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sturdy and Sash stopper my ass. Get this POS off the viabilty rankings, please.
AraEdit: Hey, welcome to Smogon :) Just fyi, if you have two arguments at the same time, you should post them both in the same post. I fixed it for you this time.
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Glad to see someone agrees that Cloyster should go, but it doesn't deserve to be blacklisted. Blacklisting is only if the thread turns to cancer when people try to argue that a mon should be ranked. If people who want to keep Cloyster on the list make a bunch of shitty arguments for it to stay, then it'll go on the blacklist, but that hasn't happened.
Arguably Cloyster doesn't 'serve no noteworthy niche', because it is one of the few, if not the only decent offensive Shell Smashers, and no do not mention Gorebyss, because that thing passes, while it has a shitty defensive type and meh special bulk, it's supposed to come in on something late game, threaten it out or be able to tank a hit, and then smash and proceed to sweep the remnants of that team. Arguments about 4MSS, (icicle spear and razor shell/another water stab are givens, along with shell smash), but it's a team reliant thing and it's not like it needs priority since opposing priority users should be wiped out before Cloyster even dares attempt to smash, lowering it's defenses, and well you could say White Herb but tbh Cloyster is D rank because it still hits decently soft after a Shell Smash, and I think it should be running Life Orb to maximize damage output. Cloyster is one of the few decent Smasher out there, with a decent offensive type and iffy offensive stats with a middling speed (but at +2 it shouldn't matter anyway lol), since it hits 524 speed at +2 with a Jolly nature, and you could say 'but it's outsped by some scarfers' but again, we have 5 other Pokemon in the back, and it's supposed to be sweeping late-game. It has a perfectly spammable 125 BP STAB move that is Ice type so it's not like it's base 95 attack is holding it back THAT much at +2, and it has priority, access to Rock Blast, and a few more noteworthy things.
It deserves D rank, it's not like it's up in the B ranks where it's arguably shit compared to everything else, Cloyster should stay in D, and if we ever do sub divisions of D, it could be D- or D(neutral).
It deserves D rank, it's not like it's up in the B ranks where it's arguably shit compared to everything else, Cloyster should stay in D, and if we ever do sub divisions of D, it could be D- or D(neutral).
Update Time
Clefable arguments can be seen from pages 9-12. This was pretty much a unanimous decision with team so this has gone through.
Weavile rose because the way teams are built with the increase of Torn-T, Garchomps, Landorus, Tyranitars, Mega Latis, and so forth it's a bigger team-building constraint than the majority of B+ along with effectiveness. Similar in a position to Volcarona in that they are big threats with some problems that are sort of mitigated in the same level through a particular moveset or team-mate. Swords Dance Weavile can pretty much clean offense as well.
Mega Slowbros splash-ability has died down in terms of hype with the understanding that what Mega Slowbro has is a higher bulk as opposed to regular Slowbro on the defensive side but is evened out by the loss of Regenerator. Calm Mind Slowbro itself in terms of its non mega has become a viable option that doesn't take up the mega slot while still providing all the benefits that Slowbro originally has.
Celebi dropped because its pivoting assets and defensive utility was much more representative in a meta-game during the time it rose to A with SubCM Keldeo around while the shifts in our ranking have created a position to where Celebi is more suited to A- with the likes of Mew and Jirachi.
For the time being anything else discussed has been presumed to stay where it is.
Discussion is tailored right now to the lower rankings, primarily C and below. Back up cases with relevant points and or replays.
Code:
Clefable: A+ > S
Weavile: B+ > A-
Mega Slowbro: A > A-
Celebi: A > A-Weavile rose because the way teams are built with the increase of Torn-T, Garchomps, Landorus, Tyranitars, Mega Latis, and so forth it's a bigger team-building constraint than the majority of B+ along with effectiveness. Similar in a position to Volcarona in that they are big threats with some problems that are sort of mitigated in the same level through a particular moveset or team-mate. Swords Dance Weavile can pretty much clean offense as well.
Mega Slowbros splash-ability has died down in terms of hype with the understanding that what Mega Slowbro has is a higher bulk as opposed to regular Slowbro on the defensive side but is evened out by the loss of Regenerator. Calm Mind Slowbro itself in terms of its non mega has become a viable option that doesn't take up the mega slot while still providing all the benefits that Slowbro originally has.
Celebi dropped because its pivoting assets and defensive utility was much more representative in a meta-game during the time it rose to A with SubCM Keldeo around while the shifts in our ranking have created a position to where Celebi is more suited to A- with the likes of Mew and Jirachi.
For the time being anything else discussed has been presumed to stay where it is.
Discussion is tailored right now to the lower rankings, primarily C and below. Back up cases with relevant points and or replays.
As I suggested earlier:
Wobbuffet from C+ to B-
With Custap Berry + Destiny Bond, it can now kill some more things that it previously had difficulty with in XY. It doesn't have the greatest movepool and is fairly one dimensional, but it happens to have everything it could really need. Its staples are Encore, Mirror Coat, and Counter, with Safeguard being an option to allow teammates to come in and setup on status moves like Toxic.
Wobbuffet from C+ to B-
With Custap Berry + Destiny Bond, it can now kill some more things that it previously had difficulty with in XY. It doesn't have the greatest movepool and is fairly one dimensional, but it happens to have everything it could really need. Its staples are Encore, Mirror Coat, and Counter, with Safeguard being an option to allow teammates to come in and setup on status moves like Toxic.
Probably not what AM meant by lower ranks discussion but here goes:
--> C- / D
Chlorophyll Venusaur has seen a reasonable degree of effectiveness in OU. Venu is a small bit part on most Sun / dual-weather teams, and there are only a minimal amount of sun turns for it to abuse this gen, but it can still be effective enough in those turns to make a difference. It outspeeds virtually the entire meta at +2 using a Modest nature so it can be hard for offensive teams to check effectively. I don't think C- / D is too much of a stretch here for something that has has seen more general success and use than say Haxorus or Chandelure (there's at least one showcase team that also topped the ladder that featured Char-Y and Venu). Even in a situation where it finds itself out of Sun or short on Sun turns it still has passable coverage, decent defensive typing, and access to Sleep Powder so it's not total deadweight. Non-Mega Venusaur probably deserves a ranking at this point.
Chlorophyll Venusaur has seen a reasonable degree of effectiveness in OU. Venu is a small bit part on most Sun / dual-weather teams, and there are only a minimal amount of sun turns for it to abuse this gen, but it can still be effective enough in those turns to make a difference. It outspeeds virtually the entire meta at +2 using a Modest nature so it can be hard for offensive teams to check effectively. I don't think C- / D is too much of a stretch here for something that has has seen more general success and use than say Haxorus or Chandelure (there's at least one showcase team that also topped the ladder that featured Char-Y and Venu). Even in a situation where it finds itself out of Sun or short on Sun turns it still has passable coverage, decent defensive typing, and access to Sleep Powder so it's not total deadweight. Non-Mega Venusaur probably deserves a ranking at this point.
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