nobody calls you that man!! having different opinions doesn't make anybody a noob!!Well, I tried at least..... OK, fine, I don't have very good reasons.. call me a noob... I'm ready to deal with it....
nobody calls you that man!! having different opinions doesn't make anybody a noob!!Well, I tried at least..... OK, fine, I don't have very good reasons.. call me a noob... I'm ready to deal with it....
Here's a quote from firebird on why it's not D from the old thread. To be fair it's much better then deo-d and fightceus but not much higher then C ranks like Dragceus and steelceus.Any reason Mega Lucario isn't C- or D-Rank yet? It has virtually no switch in opportunities due to its terrible bulk, has a huge amount of opportunity cost, and is overshadowed by multiple Pokemon above it.
I'm also wondering as to why Mega blaziken isn't lower as well. Its slightly better then mega lucario thanks to Speed boost, but suffers from the same core issues (primarily being unable to use mega salamence)..
EDIT: why is gira-a still C+? It's setup bait to so many dangerous things I'm questioning why it's C+.Again I don't think Mega Lucario is bad enough to be among the likes of Arceus-Bug and Deoxys-N (though I agree its mediocre). It's not directly outclassed by Scizor (not bait for PDon or Ho-Oh) or Metagross (can check Yveltal somewhat and outspeed Lati, also hits harder since Adaptability > Tough Claws) so putting it in D on the basis of it being 100% outclassed wouldn't quite be accurate.
I'm with you, man. I honestly have no idea what Giratina-A is still doing there, when Lugia does its job as a dedicated wall better thanks to recovery, higher Speed and ability to at least semi-reliably take on the top threats of the metagame? On top of that, there's Giratina-O who's a great Defogger and Spinblocker with good tanking potential and reliably strong offenses. I really don't know what this thing does compared to the other Great Wall or its counterpart... Drop Giratina-A to C or even C-.why is gira-a still C+? It's setup bait to so many dangerous things I'm questioning why it's C+.
Alright, that's definitely an interesting insight. I've gotten some very clear anti-move arguments, so that's already one side of the spectrum. Right now I'm personally against moving Mega Salamence up, since it simply isn't on Primal Groudon's level and I fully agree S is already super high. Already high enough for a monster like Mega Salamence.1) I don't think Salamence is forcing specific moves on certain Pokemon. You might see an Ice Beam (Ghost/Normal) Arceus or two but that's still a relatively rare case and it's more about specific case adaptation than centralization (such as needing a Salamence answer than isn't Wobb bait w/ Ice Beam Ghostceus)
2) This one's a bit hard to answer because some of Mence's power is tied to other mons being so good at removing its checks. Take Primal Groudon, for instance. Its presence deters the use of Pokemon like Electric Arceus and Zekrom which could've worked as decent checks. In fact, a lot of Salamence's checks are rendered relatively unusable in the Ubers environment (Mega Aggron, porygon2, Zapdos, Mega Slowbro, Bronzong, Mamoswine (I actually don't know if Mamo is viable or not)). In turn we get a relatively short list of: Lugia, certain formes of specialized bulky Arceus, Rock Arceus, Shuca Dialga, Shuca TTar, and Skarmory as perhaps our only viable checks and there are pretty significant costs to each one, which makes Salamence feel overpowered.
3) Salamence IMO does not define the metagame any more than Xerneas does. Maybe slightly more than EKiller, definitely not at the same level as PDon. Xerneas, like Mence, forces several answers as it's a sweeper that simply cannot be revenged (bar Bullet Punch from a few barely viable mons). Both Pokemon are capable of supporting as well. Mence is easier to immediately take down with its SR weakness and the fact that you can actually OHKO it, but Xerneas lacks recovery and only gets to do its sweeping attempt once. When comparing to Primal Groudon, Salamence does not have the same impact: Primal Groudon renders a number of Pokemon unviable (including the previously notorious Gothitelle and the metagame-defining Scarf Kyogre), shifts the metagame towards more Ground-type usage due to it being its sole weakness, provides a tremendous support to sweepers like Salamence and Xerneas thanks to how complementary its typing is to theirs, and of course being splashable on virtually every team. Salamence lacks that kind of splashability and does not affect other Pokemon's viability to the same extent, and its sweeping ability is really nothing new when titans like EKiller and Xerneas exist already.
With that in mind I firmly oppose to Salamence being in S+.
And really, S is already a super strong tier.
Even with my limited experience in Ubers I can tell you that the last half of this post is greatly flawed. Despite having an incredible ability in Protean, please do not use Greninja as an offensive Pokémon in Ubers. Even factoring in STAB it simply is not up to par with the level of offensive power here, and I can't really see it scoring any KOs any time soon aside from an Ice Beam on megamence (and even then that's assuming it's not sub or +1 speed). It's only niche in ubers is as a hazard setter; if it didn't have that it wouldn't be ranked, plain and simple. If you want an offensive threat, use just about anything else in the tier.Yay, ubers VR post #2
I say Greninja B- --->B/B+
Greninja, other than being one of my favorites, is a great ubers mon' whether it be for utility, or whether you need a reliable cleaner, Greninja is your man-frog-thing-ninja, it can be used as a hazard setter, having access to Toxic Spikes and Spikes, it even gets U-Turn, along with a few other mentions. But with it being a spikes setter, it can allow people to get some poison on a Pokemon, or some damage on a Pokemon, since Greninja has a few things it can counter, it is a great counter to Pokemon that threaten the S rank Pokemon, like Ice types for Megamence, Fighting types for Arceus (it gets extrasensory!) or grass types for Kyogre, because it has ice beam, And last but not least, Kyogre-P for Groudon, it has stab grass knot AND HP grass, so I believe that Greninja can be B/B+
Giratina-A is a good Extreme Killer check and checks Salamence better than Lugia because of Will-O-Wisp and Dragon Tail. Unlike Lugia, Giratina is not useless when it gets poisoned and is not Stealth Rock weak.I'm with you, man. I honestly have no idea what Giratina-A is still doing there, when Lugia does its job as a dedicated wall better thanks to recovery, higher Speed and ability to at least semi-reliably take on the top threats of the metagame? On top of that, there's Giratina-O who's a great Defogger and Spinblocker with good tanking potential and reliably strong offenses. I really don't know what this thing does compared to the other Great Wall or its counterpart... Drop Giratina-A to C or even C-.
Please explain how Giratina, a wall without recovery, isn't useless when statused, contrary to Lugia, a Pokémon with recovery. Both of these Pokémon are utterly plagued by Toxic, as both have poor offensive presence. Additionally, Lugia gets Dragon Tail as well, should it want to retain phazing capacities without being prevented from phazing by Taunt; speaking of which, both of these Pokémon equally despise being Taunted. Indeed, Giratina-A has no SR weakness, but Lugia is relatively fast for a defensive Pokémon at base 110 Speed and has access to Roost. It also has a large opportunity cost compared to its Origin Forme, who provides superior utility as a spinblocker and has much better offensive prowess, while still possessing good overall bulk.Giratina-A is a good Extreme Killer check and checks Salamence better than Lugia because of Will-O-Wisp and Dragon Tail. Unlike Lugia, Giratina is not useless when it gets poisoned and is not Stealth Rock weak.
fair enough about point 1, tho nothing really takes it well. sleeping phaze always outspeed defensive pdon. that's why i'm defending it for C+ rank- it's a pretty shitty mon, just not as shitty as other mons in even lower ranks.Would be rather wary of calling it a counter. A few concerns:
1) Swords Dance PDon will still hurt, and you can't burn it. If it Dances on the switch prepare to take 70% minimum from aids blades. That's gonna leave Giratina in kill range for a lot of things, such as Mence's Double Edge, and Giratina will often have difficulties finding room to Rest off that damage against teams that typically have SD+ RP Primal Groudon. Better make that one time checking count.
2) Defensive PDon can speed creep Giratina-A and outphaze it. In that event Giratina can do nothing but Rest, unless you can find a slot for Defog.
All Giratina run Rest so Giratina doesn't mind status. That makes Giratina a good status absorber while it still threaten physical sweepers with Dragon Tail and Will-O-Wisp. And when Stealth Rock is up, Lugia loses Multiscale so it loses to Stone Edge Arceus, Mega Salamance and Rayquaza, while Giratina can still check them.Please explain how Giratina, a wall without recovery, isn't useless when statused, contrary to Lugia, a Pokémon with recovery. Both of these Pokémon are utterly plagued by Toxic, as both have poor offensive presence. Additionally, Lugia gets Dragon Tail as well, should it want to retain phazing capacities without being prevented from phazing by Taunt; speaking of which, both of these Pokémon equally despise being Taunted. Indeed, Giratina-A has no SR weakness, but Lugia is relatively fast for a defensive Pokémon at base 110 Speed and has access to Roost. It also has a large opportunity cost compared to its Origin Forme, who provides superior utility as a spinblocker and has much better offensive prowess, while still possessing good overall bulk.
There are more to defensive ability than just bulk..... Mega gar was S rank due to its ability to freely remove one mon with minimal repercussion which in itself is defensive utility, darkrai performs a similar role but to a lesser degree since gengar chooses what it removes whereS darkrai only gets to remove an opponent chosen mon though at this point it's fodder (sleep talk is a god awful move and unreliable as shit). That qualifies as defensive utility in my eyes.Agreed with everything Lord Outrage said. Latis are pretty overrated, I think people are just overjoyed by the fact Soul Dew is finally back and we got some cool Defoggers, but yeah for the reasons he and Sweep stated, they're more worthy of A+.
However I disagree with Darkrai to S, as by definition of this rank a Pokemon must be able to sport versatility in being able to run both offensive and defensive sets. Versatility is what truly separates great Pokemon from the good. Darkrai has no defensive capability and is rather one dimensional. Don't get me wrong, it's an absolutely massive threat and can be extremely difficult to check, but this should be the reason why it's A+ in the first place - the best among the good. A+ is still a very solid rank. If Darkrai wants to go S, it needs to be able to offer defensive utility. I personally do see it as big a threat as some of those in S rank, solely due to the sheer offensive pressure it exerts, but unless we change the definition of said ranks, then it's not really worth of S.
TL;DR - Latis to A+. Darkrai's offensive capability is worthy of S rank, but its lack of defensive utility holds it back from being this rank.