Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Froslass > Unranked.

Seriously, why would you even use this thing? Its utter shit and peoplesaying that it can taunt and spinblock its own spikes are really just looking for an out for trying to keep this ranked when it shouldnt be in the first place. If you want an offensive spiker, use scolipede. Its better x infinity. Speed Boost, endeavor, and actual offensive presence make it something that can and should be used. Froslass's "niche" is being a HO Spiker lead, but as a player who uses almost exclusively offense, I have never once said, "man, I really wish I had Froslass as a lead right now!" If I want a Spiker lead then Id use Scolipede. Froslass is really just a mon thats ranked because why the fuck not rank a mon that can do a job worse than another mon? It doesnt matter if it has a "niche." The niche isnt useful enough to warrant usage on serious teams.

And honestly, this applies to most D rank mons. D rank should be for mons that have "useful niches", and not just "a niche." A great example of this is Metagross, which has the useful niche of being a decent pursuit trapper that is also a great fairy switch in. It is a mon that I would consider for use on a serious team. When looking at 99% of the D ranks, I just see shit that Id never use seriously because theyre just that bad.
 
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Froslass > Unranked.

Seriously, why would you even use this thing? Its utter shit and peoplesaying that it can taunt and spinblock its own spikes are really just looking for an out for trying to keep this ranked when it shouldnt be in the first place. If you want an offensive spiker, use scolipede. Its better x infinity. Speed Boost, endeavor, and actual offensive presence make it something that can and should be used. Froslass's "niche" is being a HO Spiker lead, but as a player who uses almost exclusively offense, I have never once said, "man, I really wish I had Froslass as a lead right now!" If I want a Spiker lead then Id use Scolipede. Froslass is really just a mon thats ranked because why the fuck not rank a mon that can do a job weorse than another mon? It doesnt matter if it has a "niche." The niche isnt useful enough to warrant usage on serious teams.

And honestly, this applies to most D rank mons. D rank should be for mons that have "useful niches", and not just "a niche." A GHreat example of this is Metagross, which has the useful niche of being a decent pursuit trapper that is also a great fairy switch in. It is a mon that I would consider for use on a serious team. When looking at 99% of the D ranks, I just see shit that Id never use seriously because theyre just that bad.
This isn't entirely unfair. I've been using Froslass on my laddering adventures, and it is way better than you're giving it credit for. If anything it should rise, not become unranked. You neglected to mention Destiny Bond, which can force mindgames and allow Froslass to take down an important Pokemon. Another important thing is Cursed Body, putting a Pokemon out of commission and allowing you to gain momentum into a Pokemon you would like to. For example, if you disable Bullet Punch on Scizor. You then have an opportunity to bring in a Pokemon weak to Bullet Punch the next turn without worry. Scolipede and Froslass are not comparable outside of having Spikes, so don't compare them. They are HO leads, yes, but they're functioning of setting Spikes and keeping them up are entirely different. Froslass naturally spinblocks, can stop Defog via Taunt, has Cursed Body, and can force mind games with Destiny Bond; Scolipede has Endeavor, a better offensive presence, and has Speed Boost. Losing access to Taunt is a big thing! Another thing that Froslass has over Scolipede is Ice STAB, allowing it to actually threaten out Defog users. What can Scolipede do? Endeavor? Defog is a lot easier to stop with Froslass, which has Taunt and Ice STAB. Icy Wind is a great move that makes Pokemon worry of doing things against Froslass.

I was skeptical at first, but after using Froslass for a solid amount of time, I have to say, it's actually a lot better than given credit for. It's not worse than Scolipede, it's not better than Scolipede, I think Froslass is just one notch below it. However, Froslass does not deserve to be unranked. Instead, I'd argue for it to raise to C- due to the merits I listed above and because Froslass is arguably better than other D Rank Pokemon.
 

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This isn't entirely unfair. I've been using Froslass on my laddering adventures, and it is way better than you're giving it credit for. If anything it should rise, not become unranked. You neglected to mention Destiny Bond, which can force mindgames and allow Froslass to take down an important Pokemon.
youre forcing 50-50s which can go either way. other suicude leads can force their own 50-50s or even outright kill mons. For examples, see Azelf, Scolipede, Garchomp, and even normal Aerodactyl!


Another important thing is Cursed Body, putting a Pokemon out of commission and allowing you to gain momentum into a Pokemon you would like to. For example, if you disable Bullet Punch on Scizor. You then have an opportunity to bring in a Pokemon weak to Bullet Punch the next turn without worry.
this relies exclusively on luck, and a 30% chance isnt doing much when ur dying after the second hit.

Scolipede and Froslass are not comparable outside of having Spikes, so don't compare them. They are HO leads, yes, but they're functioning of setting Spikes and keeping them up are entirely different. Froslass naturally spinblocks, can stop Defog via Taunt, has Cursed Body, and can force mind games with Destiny Bond; Scolipede has Endeavor, a better offensive presence, and has Speed Boost. Losing access to Taunt is a big thing! Another thing that Froslass has over Scolipede is Ice STAB, allowing it to actually threaten out Defog users.
they are actually, because theyre job is to get up layers of spikes as fast as possible then maim an opponent. Froslass has Destiny Bond (which loses to residual damage), while Scoli has endeavor. yes froslass has taunt but so what? The only defog user that it actually applies to is latios, but latios rly shouldnt come in on it anyways, and instead after lass dies. Scoli also beats latios because megahorn. also lass's ice beam is piss weak coming off of a base 80 special attack. Plus, if you really want an ice stab user suicude lead, mamo works cuz it is not only way more powerful, but it can also beat mega diancie 1v1 + has great synergy with ferro so if u rly want spikes u can just use those two.

What can Scolipede do? Endeavor? Defog is a lot easier to stop with Froslass, which has Taunt and Ice STAB. Icy Wind is a great move that makes Pokemon worry of doing things against Froslass.
megahorn ohkoes lati@s and the other defoggers cant do anything back without getting crippled by endeavor. and why woulf i bring my defogger in onlass when i can just wait for t to die? this applies to any suicude lead for that matter. Its the nature of HO. Lass isnt some miracle mon that changes this all of a sudden.

I was skeptical at first, but after using Froslass for a solid amount of time, I have to say, it's actually a lot better than given credit for. It's not worse than Scolipede, it's not better than Scolipede, I think Froslass is just one notch below it. However, Froslass does not deserve to be unranked. Instead, I'd argue for it to raise to C- due to the merits I listed above and because Froslass is arguably better than other D Rank Pokemon.
Scoli is eons better than lass but w/e.
 
Yeah you definitely want to use Hydro Pump on M-Blastoise if we're just talking about a 4 attack set. It has a ton of power behind and is honestly just way more worth it to break stuff like fat steels. Just from a viability standpoint in terms of its offensive presence I'm speaking on Hydro Pump. I think using anything else on its 4 attack set is just hindering it a lot. Scald is more suited to spinner variants but even then sort of depends on team I guess.
I see the use on hydro, but Sometimes I find the burn chance to be helpful(not reliable, but it does deter azumarill and venusaur from switching in a sense, one looses its offensive ability, the other hates passive damage) but ive been climbing (I'm around 1450 ladder points) and I havnt really been in a situation where the extra power is needed, but I can see the extra power being helpful I just don't know KOs hydro pump knabs that scald doesn't, plus I'm a sucker for perfect accurate moves.
 
I see the use on hydro, but Sometimes I find the burn chance to be helpful(not reliable, but it does deter azumarill and venusaur from switching in a sense, one looses its offensive ability, the other hates passive damage) but ive been climbing (I'm around 1450 ladder points) and I havnt really been in a situation where the extra power is needed, but I can see the extra power being helpful I just don't know KOs hydro pump knabs that scald doesn't, plus I'm a sucker for perfect accurate moves.
Hydro nabs the guaranteed 2HKO on Mega Sableye and TankChomp:

252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 169-199 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

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Hitmontop for D-rank (maybe C-)

This may seem a bit out there, and I'm probably gonna get a shitstorm reigned upon me for this nom, but I'm going to do it anyways. I’ve actually been trying out this mon a ton recently and have found it to be more useful than I originally thought. The main set that I’ve been using lately is a defensive spinner set (toxic/cc/spin/stone edge) to great use and it works very well. The set can form a double intimidate core with many of the common OU intimidators and tank hits from its solid 95 def stat when coupled with intimidate and doesn't have a half bad 110 special defense for eating up special hits. Hitmontop can spin vs basically any physical attacker in the tier and really is bulky enough to function as a legitimate tank. It can actually 1v1 many different physical attackers in OU and serve as an emergency check to many of them. Problems like lack of reliable recovery, bare offensive movepool outside of its STAB moves, and low HP all stop it from being a higher rank, but it definitely can hold its own in OU.

Talonflame
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 364-432 (122.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (kinda obv but just there for 1v1)

Sand Rush Excadrill
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 372-440 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Band TTar
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 456-540 (133.7 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bottom line, Hitmontop isn't the best mon offensively, but it is a nice bulky rapid spinner, and it does a pretty damn good job tanking hits if it needs to (see calcs) and can be a great addition to select teams under the right conditions.
 

AM

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Hitmontop for D-rank (maybe C-)

This may seem a bit out there, and I'm probably gonna get a shitstorm reigned upon me for this nom, but I'm going to do it anyways. I’ve actually been trying out this mon a ton recently and have found it to be more useful than I originally thought. The main set that I’ve been using lately is a defensive spinner set (toxic/cc/spin/stone edge) to great use and it works very well. The set can form a double intimidate core with many of the common OU intimidators and tank hits from its solid 95 def stat when coupled with intimidate and doesn't have a half bad 110 special defense for eating up special hits. Hitmontop can spin vs basically any physical attacker in the tier and really is bulky enough to function as a legitimate tank. It can actually 1v1 many different physical attackers in OU and serve as an emergency check to many of them. Problems like lack of reliable recovery, bare offensive movepool outside of its STAB moves, and low HP all stop it from being a higher rank, but it definitely can hold its own in OU.

Talonflame
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 364-432 (122.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (kinda obv but just there for 1v1)

Sand Rush Excadrill
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 372-440 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Band TTar
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 456-540 (133.7 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bottom line, Hitmontop isn't the best mon offensively, but it is a nice bulky rapid spinner, and it does a pretty damn good job tanking hits if it needs to (see calcs) and can be a great addition to select teams under the right conditions.
Yeah Im drawing the line here sorry. That's a no.
 
Figured I might as well go through the lower ranks as well, as a lot of things seem pretty inconsistent. Won't pictures cause I don't have time to get them unfortunately.
I'll quickly give a list of the things I'll discuss here, and then provide descriptions for each nomination afterword, I just felt writing down all the nominations would help so I don't have to continuously flick back to the viability rankings.

Seismatoad to B-
Infernape to B-
Mega Blastoise to C+
Entei to C+
Mega Latios to unranked
Shuckle to D/unlisted
Espeon to D
Pangoro to C+
Smeargle to D
Chandelure stays D
Cofagrigus to C
Haxorus stays D
Unrank the Following
Cloyster
Doublade
Exploud
Mienshao
Mega Glalie
Diancie

Seismatoad should rise because its a really reliable stealth rock setter, and water absorb allows to absorb the ever-so annoying scald. Its typing leaves it with only one weakness, and while not great offensively, it can spread burns and poisons with scald and toxic respectively, or even remove items with knock off. It can also check a ton of pokemon, such as Keldeo, Jirachi, Tyranitar and bisharp, while it counters Raikou and Manentric. Its a shaky check to most of these because its lack of recovery means it gets worn down easily, but if you need a reliable set rock setter that can act as a check to many common pokemon, look no further then seismatoad.

Infernape should rise because its a excellent mixed wall attacker that can actually be pretty difficult to wall, due to extensive movepool and unpredictability. Infernape is one of the few C rank pokemon that can fulfill multiple roles, such as a stealth rock lead, life orb mixed attacker, or even the incredibly underrated defensive set, which is can actually check a mons such as mega scizor, bisharp and weavile very nicely. As the the mixed set, it can blast open bulky pokemon with powerful stab close combats and fire blasts, while sporting excellent coverage in the likes of grass knot, hidden power ice, gunk shot, and stone edge. It even has access to priority to make up for its somewhat disappointing speed (seriously, how the hell does mega metagross outspeed this???).

Most of what I have to say about Mega Blastoise has all ready been said, but one of its biggest selling points is being a hazard remover thats not psychic or flying type, and not being weather reliant such as excadrill. Also not being pursuit weak is pretty sweet, which is the main reason starmie was denied a position in A+. Mega Blastoise, while slow, can really punch some holes in teams, due to its powerful coverage options, and its natural bulk allow it to take some hits, and retaliate with a devastating blow. All-Out-Attacker mega blastoise was something I used in X and Y, and it certainly hasn't lost is touch, meaning pokemon such as celebi can't switch in as easily.

Entei is a hidden gem, having access to one of the most spammable moves in the game, sacred fire, which as 50% chance to burn the target, turing pokemon that could normally switch into entei such as garchomp and tyranitar into unreliable and shaky switch ins. It also access to extreme speed to revenge killer pokemon such as talonflame after some prior damage. Whiles its movepool doesn't stretch much farther then that, iron head and bulldoze can be used to deal with mega diancie and heatran respectively. I could honestly see it in B- if it weren't for a crippling stealth rock weakness, as well as poor typing defensively. Also, charcoal + wisp is a cool set AM (not tagging cause apparently its a nuisance) incorporated in the team he created for me built around diancie and pangoro, which is able to lure in lots of threats and nullify them without having to rely on a 50% burn chance.

Mega Latios needs to get the hell out as soon as possible. The opportunity cost is simply to high. Why would you want to run it over other megas?
tumblr_na5pnd2wZT1s8ouhxo1_500.gif

Yeah, buy running mega latios, you loose the ability to run president fluff here, and all his mega friends, such as metagross, loppuny, diancie, sableye, scizor, charizard and gyarados. As a special attacker, regular latios holding a life orb actually hits harder, and does not leave you unable to run another mega evolution. As a Dragon dancer, why use this over mega altaria, mega charizard x or mega gyarados? They all have better stab moves to abuse and are generally much more productive to either typing, abilitys, or better move pools. Even then, why not use mega latias, who is one of the most reliable checks to broken ass Landorus-I?
I subject thee to an eternity in hell!

Shuckle is also a horrid piece of work, sticky web was bad in X and Y, and borderline counter productive in ORAS. With two extremly common magic bouncers in the tier, as well as bisharp and serperior running a mock, shuckle will often be a liability, and its lack of offensive presence and recovery make it helpless to strong attacks, and it will eventually succumb to the onslaught. Since I'm an incredible rhymer, the vast majority of teams chuckle at shuckle.

Smeargle and Espeon are the literal definition of crap outside of uncompetitive geopass teams which is really common anyway, and can be stopped before it gets going if played wisely (though this is actually surprisingly difficult).

Pangoro is a personal favourite of mine, and its extremely underrated. It has access to 3 excellent abilitys, scrappy turning the would be counter sableye into bamboo for the panda, mold breaker being optimal on swords dance sets to beat clefable with gunk shot, and iron fist to get a more powerful drain punch and ice punch. Pandora, while deadweight against offensive teams, puts in a lot of work against stall, and can dent some balance builds as well. However, I think buffs pangoro to C+ rather then C is parting shot. This move allows pangoro to become an offensively oriented pivot, and circle around slower teams by forcing switches. The drop of offensive stats gives set up sweepers an easier time getting prepared to close the match, and for turning frail pokemon that struggle to set up into terrifying opponents. This has been nominated multiple times by various users so I thought I might as well throw in my support, because I have a lot of experience with this truly underrated pokemon.

Chandelure, while its nice is minute, it can be productive in certain situations. First, its a decent check to defensive altaria. Secondly, flash fire allows it to virtually counter mega charizard Y, a huge offensive threat. I also have found chandelure to be pretty effective against stall teams, walling clefable with out knock off/twave, beating mega sableye on a switch, energy balling quagsire, and taking a dump on the various psychics and grasses that are found of the most stall teams. I know its not much, but I think its enough to keep it D, at least for the time being. I don't feel too passionately for it, and I'll understand if it gets unranked, but I'd rather use it then a lot of the crap that resides it the lower ranks (looking at you mega latios).

Haxorus should stay ranked cause of the Swords Dance + Taunt set. Dragon dance sets are completely outclassed by the mega DDancers and dragonite, who isn't even a good Ddancer in the first place. Mold breaker allows to beat unaware pokemon and taunt magic bouncers. Once again, only really effective against stall and slower balance teams but enough to keep it ranked. Once again, its not that important and unranking it seems logistical, I just don't agree with the proposal.

Cofagrigus should rise because mummy essential screws over half the mega sweepers and wall breakers. It also has a mammoth defence stat backed up by moves such as willow wisp, toxic spikes, haze and pain split, and decent offensive presence in hex, and ghost is one of the best typing offensively due to the lack of pokemon that can deal with it. Cool on stall teams.

Just want to point out that having a niche doesn't make something viable. Their are ton of pokemon that can fit a extremely select teams and work, such as some of the pokemon show cased in CTC's team building compendium, which aren't viable choices, but can be made to work in extremely selective cases. Right now, the majority of the D rank fits this description. However, these are the really rotten eggs in my opinion:

Snobalts stated cloyters case, just a bad sweeper who gets hard stopped by waters and priority users and struggles to set up in the first place. Doublade is no longer a strong option for defensive teams as the've adapted to threats such as gardevoir and heracross with viable choices that do more then just check them such as jirachi and clefable. Cofagrigus or sableye are much better options for defensive ghosts. Exploud can only work on trick room teams and even then, trick room teams are limited for team slots as they must run two-three trick room setters and then other slow offensive pokemon, and while exploud fits this criteria, others such as emboar, azumaril, Mega Ampharos and even mega steelix are pokemon I generally find to much more worth a slot then exploud. Mienshao is pretty much outclassed by mega loppuny, while reckless life orb hits harder, loppuny's better speed tier, ability, and support movepool make it better choice, despite taking up a mega slot. Its not a atrocious pokemon, but it simply does not have a niche to ranked, and feels like a great example of a pokemon that fits only on extremely selective teams. I don't understand why anyone would want to use mega glalie over other mega evolutions. It has horrible defensive typing and stealth weakness make it difficult to switch in, and its mediocre defensive stats don't help its case either. Combine this with an undesirable speed tier and and slight case of the 4MSS as it has to pick between hitting heatran with earthquake or waters with freeze dry. In a metagame where mega titans rein supreme, glalie simply cannot compete. Diancie was only ranked cause its a reliable stealth rock setter and trick room setter, but as a fairy type, clefable is a better rocks setter, as it does not loose to the most common rock setter (Garchomp). Offensively, Mega Diancie is straight up outclasses it. Cressilia or cofagrigus are better trick room pokemon. Also, regarding the hipmotop nomination, I actually have used, and its terrible. If you are going to use it, at least use a set of close combat/rapid spin/foresight/toxic so it can spin against ghosts.

Anyway, thanks for reading (if you did) as this is a decently sized post. Goodnight everyone.
 
Infernape should rise because its a excellent mixed wall attacker that can actually be pretty difficult to wall, due to extensive movepool and unpredictability. Infernape is one of the few C rank pokemon that can fulfill multiple roles, such as a stealth rock lead, life orb mixed attacker, or even the incredibly underrated defensive set, which is can actually check a mons such as mega scizor, bisharp and weavile very nicely. As the the mixed set, it can blast open bulky pokemon with powerful stab close combats and fire blasts, while sporting excellent coverage in the likes of grass knot, hidden power ice, gunk shot, and stone edge. It even has access to priority to make up for its somewhat disappointing speed. (seriously, how the hell does mega metagross outspeed this???)
I agree with this, but it's speed is actually pretty good. It's not the greatest thanks to the speed creep, but of course Mega Metagross is going to outspeed it, it has base 110 speed! 108 isn't a bad speed at all and it still does major things like outspeed Landorus-I, Garchomp, as well as speed tie with Keldeo and outspeed everything below. That's a sizable portion of the metagame right there.
 

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I disagree with Cloyster being unranked. It's actually really fucking threatening if it manages to set up, as it has two 125 BP moves with great coverage and not crap accuracy, plus it's bulky enough to take powerful priority attacks even at -1.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (dies after Rocks but seriously wtf)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 164-192 (68 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fuck you AM I'll bold my calcs if I want to :P

Its main issues are that setting up can be a pain against anything remotely offensive with its bad defensive typing combined with horrible special bulk (made even worse if you want to go mixed with Hydro Pump and use Naive/Naughty) and being unable to get past Keldeo, but it's just good enough to warrant D-Rank.
 

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Yo I actually got pretty high on the ladder with Defog Wish Mence...

But seriously though, Salamence should NOT rise, I think D is perfectly fine for it. Looking at the Pokemon in A and S rank, the only Pokemon Salamence can easily switch into is Charizard Y, Volcarona (I guess being able to switch in and phase out Volc is pretty cool), and Keldeo without an Ice-type move but that's a huge gamble so it isn't worth it at all. It is beaten by pretty much everything else lol. It can switch into Mega Gallade and Heracross (without Rock Blast lol but that's, again a huge gamble) pretty well but those aren't seeing enough usage to warrant a rise for Salamence. Not to mention, with the bulky Defog set, Salamence usually only has room for one attacking move which is usually going to be a Dragon-type STAB which, in turn, makes it complete set-up fodder for Pokemon such as Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Clefable. It's horribly outclassed by the Lati twins with its "niche" being Intimidate, not being weak to Pursuit, and ability to phase out opposing Pokemon. Defog Salamence also has very little offensive presence. All in all, Salamence's niches aren't impactful enough to warrant a rise.
 
I disagree with Cloyster being unranked. It's actually really fucking threatening if it manages to set up, as it has two 125 BP moves with great coverage and not crap accuracy, plus it's bulky enough to take powerful priority attacks even at -1.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (dies after Rocks but seriously wtf)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 164-192 (68 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fuck you AM I'll bold my calcs if I want to :P

Its main issues are that setting up can be a pain against anything remotely offensive with its bad defensive typing combined with horrible special bulk (made even worse if you want to go mixed with Hydro Pump and use Naive/Naughty) and being unable to get past Keldeo, but it's just good enough to warrant D-Rank.
Cloyster is an always will be one of the scariest sweepers in the game. It gets a bad reputation from being so popular with bad players who use it badly.
 
It's not that scary being weak with only 95 base attack and 85 base special attack and being required to run a Life Orb to increase damage output to become more threatening and having almost no way to beat bulky waters.

But on that note, I will say it's in D RANK! It's not going to be fucking perfect, it's going to have flaws and it's going to be mostly bad besides it's select niche that makes it good. You shouldn't be bashing too much on a mediocre in most cases Pokemon, unless it's literally making it completely worthless. Like omg, it can't handle bulky waters. Guess what, it's a LATE GAME sweeper. You should be removing these checks and counters to it before attempting to sweep. It's not perfect, it's not that good. It's in the ranking where it only has a select niche and does badly outside of it. You shouldn't bash D ranks on their obvious flaws. Putting them in some situations they shouldn't be in is completely absurd. Cloyster has the ability to be a viable late game sweeper, access to priority, 125 bp STAB ice move that breaks sashes and subs, etc. It's good at what it can do. LATE-GAME sweeping. Outside of that small niche as an offensive Smasher, it's bad in every other regard. It shouldn't be unranked because people are pointing out absurd situations that shouldn't even happen with the way you use Cloyster to begin with. It's not like it's in B ranks and it should be lowered, it's in D and it can do something on select teams. Cloyster should remain in D rank.
 
I mean, look at the some of the trash in C and below and ppl keep trying to get Cloyster unranked of all things.

"It's k, I have a water type I'm not scared of this thing"

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 345-410 (86 - 102.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

"It's k, my physically defensive Unaware mon can probably switch in and not get 2HKO'd"

252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 195-235 (49.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

"It's k I have super effective priority on my Breloom"

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 330-390 (126.4 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I mean, look at the some of the trash in C and below and ppl keep trying to get Cloyster unranked of all things.

"It's k, I have a water type I'm not scared of this thing"

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 345-410 (86 - 102.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

"It's k, my physically defensive Unaware mon can probably switch in and not get 2HKO'd"

252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 195-235 (49.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

"It's k I have super effective priority on my Breloom"

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 330-390 (126.4 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tbf you're really overselling Cloyster. It's offensive presence is under average and even then you're still putting it in scenarios it shouldn't bother to be in at all lol. It's not like it's guaranteed Smash, plus if it has LO it should whittle itself down enough. Plus Brecancer runs Focus Sash a lot and then what happens? Oh if you think running Sash on Cloyster would help he has BSeed so meh. -even if late game it should be gone - It has shitty special bulk - but you shouldn't set up on special mons anyway - and even with the good physical bulk its defensive typing is really bad and it can't find a lot of set up opportunities. Like I said before, it's not perfect, it's not good, it's not great, it's mediocre and will always be that way in ORAS OU. But it's not that bad to not deserve a rank because it still can sweep teams late-game.

Cloyster should stay in D, and as one of my Cloyster posts mentioned, if we do sub divisions of D, it could be D- or D.
 
Cloyster is essentially like Lucario - a dedicated lategame sweeper who needs some team support, no more and no less. While I agree Lucario is better, there is no reason Cloyster should be that far behind it (B- vs D).
Lucario has a better defensive type and Extremespeed, but Cloyster has a much better STAB, doesn't rely on contact moves (a rather big deal right now with Rocky Helm Chomp being so common), better physical bulk and can go mixed.
Cloyster is guaranteed to pull Shell Smash off against pretty much every bulky ground type which are extremely common right now. And its defensive type isn't that bad as it's still part water-type, one of the best defensive types in the game, giving it an extremely valuable 4x ice resistance as well as handy water resistance (while removing the annoying fire and steel weaknesses).
If Lucario is B- then Cloyster must be C- or higher.
 
One of my first teams in oras included a Cloyster and while that is a meta and a half ago, a lot of the points are still valid. Cloyster has a bad stigma associated with it for a long time bc lots of bad players on the ladder use it and while its not as bad as people are making it out to be, Id much prefer it to drop bc it really isnt as good as half of you are saying either. Its pretty difficult to setup with against a pretty large variety of teams but once it gets going, its can be hard for an unprepared team to stop. It can even beat several common revenge killers due to priority Ice shard which means mons like Talonflame, Breloom, etc cant stop a sweep.

Even with these positives, cloyster has a lot of issues, too many for it to be much of a serious choice on any team. Teams with any mon that resists Ice+Rock are almost unbeatable for cloyster and considering nearly every competent team has at least one of those, it rarely gets a chance to sweep. People who keep mentioning its bulk really need to stop as well bc the only way Cloyster can semi-reliably setup is with a sash, meaning if you cant ohko the mon in front of you, you die. Most of the mons in D are far more reliable than cloyster and the ones that arent shouldnt really be on the list anyway.

Unrank clam
 
Cloyster is essentially like Lucario - a dedicated lategame sweeper who needs some team support, no more and no less. While I agree Lucario is better, there is no reason Cloyster should be that far behind it (B- vs D).
Lucario has a better defensive type and Extremespeed, but Cloyster has a much better STAB, doesn't rely on contact moves (a rather big deal right now with Rocky Helm Chomp being so common), better physical bulk and can go mixed.
Cloyster is guaranteed to pull Shell Smash off against pretty much every bulky ground type which are extremely common right now. And its defensive type isn't that bad as it's still part water-type, one of the best defensive types in the game, giving it an extremely valuable 4x ice resistance as well as handy water resistance (while removing the annoying fire and steel weaknesses).
If Lucario is B- then Cloyster must be C- or higher.
Ehhh, that logic is kind of flawed. At least Lucario has impeccable priority (and can alternatively run a + nature on attack, cloyster needs all the speed it can get), and at least one expendable moveslot, and a greater attack stat. You're comparing a priority abuser to something that boosts it speed to raise it's sweeping potential, they aren't as similar as you are making them. At least Lucario doesn't cry at the face of Steels, like Cloyster does. (although that really isn't a strong point because lucario is a higher ranking and thus a higher viability with a lesser list of checks and counters)

Flamer said:
Even with these positives, cloyster has a lot of issues, too many for it to be much of a serious choice on any team. Teams with any mon that resists Ice+Rock are almost unbeatable for cloyster and considering nearly every competent team has at least one of those, it rarely gets a chance to sweep. People who keep mentioning its bulk really need to stop as well bc the only way Cloyster can semi-reliably setup is with a sash, meaning if you cant ohko the mon in front of you, you die. Most of the mons in D are far more reliable than cloyster and the ones that arent shouldnt really be on the list anyway.
Alright seriously people. I'm getting fed up with these people acting like Cloyster is supposed to be a 3 step Pokemon.
Step 1: Send in Cloyster as your lead.
Step 2: Press Shell Smash.
Step 3: Sweep.
No, it sweeps late-game where it's counters are supposed to be gone. And yes, Steels are common, it's D rank. It's not gonna have one or two select counters that work on it, it has a large list that work on it because it's only mediocre in this metagame and doesn't work much outside of the one niche it has. We have teams of (gasp) 6 for a reason, so we can cover other Pokemons weaknesses and help them in their niche. Like come on. Cloyster isn't that bad to not deserve a rank, it's not like we're going to rank Carracosta or
the crusty crab Crustle because they have Smash, they don't even use it as good as Cloyster. Cloyster is able to use is very well and is the only decent shell smasher in testing that doesn't just pass it off to others instead of using it for itself.

Edit: 100th post hype!

Edit 2: I know that using the banner for the rankings doesn't justify ranking, but let me point something out.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
I bolded the basic points about Cloyster that I've been making.
 
Last edited:
Ehhh, that logic is kind of flawed. At least Lucario has impeccable priority (and can alternatively run a + nature on attack, cloyster needs all the speed it can get), and at least one expendable moveslot, and a greater attack stat. You're comparing a priority abuser to something that boosts it speed to raise it's sweeping potential, they aren't as similar as you are making them. At least Lucario doesn't cry at the face of Steels, like Cloyster does. (although that really isn't a strong point because lucario is a higher ranking and thus a higher viability with a lesser list of checks and counters)


Alright seriously people. I'm getting fed up with these people acting like Cloyster is supposed to be a 3 step Pokemon.
Step 1: Send in Cloyster as your lead.
Step 2: Press Shell Smash.
Step 3: Sweep.
No, it sweeps late-game where it's counters are supposed to be gone. And yes, Steels are common, it's D rank. It's not gonna have one or two select counters that work on it, it has a large list that work on it because it's only mediocre in this metagame and doesn't work much outside of the one niche it has. We have teams of (gasp) 6 for a reason, so we can cover other Pokemons weaknesses and help them in their niche. Like come on. Cloyster isn't that bad to not deserve a rank, it's not like we're going to rank Carracosta or
the crusty crab Crustle because they have Smash, they don't even use it as good as Cloyster. Cloyster is able to use is very well and is the only decent shell smasher in testing that doesn't just pass it off to others instead of using it for itself.

Edit: 100th post hype!
D rank is definitely not an excuse for a mon being bad, just by comparing it to the rest of D you can see it just doesnt fit. Ive used cloyster a fair bit and I know how it functions but considering the mons that wall it/beat it all are pretty easily able to be kept healthy, you cant use "its supposed to sweep late game" as an argument. Since a lot of people use that argument on Lucario as well lets use the comparison between the two as late-game cleaners. Lucario requires faster and frailer mons like Thundurus-I and Talonflame to be weakened to sweep (I believe just 2 rounds of LO recoil secures the ohko on thundy with +2 espeed and talon needs to be around 60%). Other than those, Lucario has enough speed to outpace bulky mons and has the coverage to deal with them. Cloysters problem is that it gets stopped cold by lots of bulky mons and lots of offensive mons just because its movepool is lacking. The problem with this is that Cloyster needs to be able to ohko every mon that comes in or it loses, other lategame sweepers dont have this problem. (Lucario might be in B- but the principle still remains)
 

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Yeah Im drawing the line here sorry. That's a no.
Could you at least give reasoning why he shouldn't be D-rank? I've used him to decent success in OU and he's been a great team member in many different situations recently.
 

AM

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Could you at least give reasoning why he shouldn't be D-rank? I've used him to decent success in OU and he's been a great team member in many different situations recently.
The entirety of S rank, the majority of A+ rank, 3/4 of the A rank, half the A- rank, 3/4 of the B rank in there entirety. 3/4 of the entire C rank, half of the D rank. These are all things that realistically threaten it out and the asset it provides is extremely specific to only a handful of things. It's literally an invitation for the tier to set up on it and or gain momentum. Doesn't provide any specific asset that warrants a team slot especially for the fighting role.
 

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The entirety of S rank, the majority of A+ rank, 3/4 of the A rank, half the A- rank, 3/4 of the B rank in there entirety. 3/4 of the entire C rank, half of the D rank. These are all things that realistically threaten it out and the asset it provides is extremely specific to only a handful of things. It's literally an invitation for the tier to set up on it and or gain momentum. Doesn't provide any specific asset that warrants a team slot especially for the fighting role.
Ok, thanks for the clarification, I understand your reasoning now.
 

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Well SD + DD is not doing two different things, you choose between one or the other except you have both available. +1 Speed is enough to sweep since Haxorus is naturally fast, why would you need +2? It's considerably faster than Dragonite and Mega Altaria already, so...

It's not totally outclassed by those Dragons either because they don't have the option of using SD against more defensive teams, and they lack Mold Breaker. Ferrothorn beats Haxorus 1 vs 1 regardless of Taunt with Gyro Ball, same with Hippo's EQ. Chesnaught 3HKO's with Drain Punch and you can't KO back in time if you use Taunt first, although usually you should catch them off guard with Taunt so I'll give you that. But Taunt isn't all that great and requires good prediction.
It is trying to do two things in one set though. DD+SD in one set is literal ass as, unlike double dance which can vary depending on opposing team's setup (but will always be used as a sweeper), Haxorus isn't getting +2 speed in one turn. In addition to this, Haxorus is completely overshadowed by other DD users because they don't need to attempt to do two things in one set to have any use over them. Also, as an SD Dragon-type, you are better off using (mega) Garchomp due to it getting STAB on Earthquake, higher speed and (for mega) almost identical damage output on your Dragon-type STABs. The one thing that it does have over SD Garchomp is Taunt, which allows it to act as a stallbreaker instead of a wallbreaker. You Taunt Chesnaught not so that it doesn't deal heavy damage to you (as you'd be stupid to leave Haxorus in on the turn after you Taunt it unless ur sacking it) but so that it doesn't deal heavy damage to your teammates. The utility of stopping it from seeding/using Spiky Shield/Spikes is really immense and it is the sole reason that you would ever use this otherwise garbage mon in the first place. SD+DD is not a niche as Zard does the same thing but better using Tailwind, DD is literal ass as every dragon in the tier barring Garchomp outclasses you in the role of DD and all out SD attacker is outclassed entirely by Garchomp.
 
Okay, so here's the thing about Mega Latios. I see why it was dropped to C Rank. Heck, I can even understand dropping it to D. The opportunity cost with this thing is high, after all. But you can only go so far with the opportunity cost argument before it gets silly. Completely unranking a Mega that is literally a buffed up version of a Pokemon currently in A+ rank is downright insulting. No, you probably aren't going to pick it over a different Mega very often when regular Latios can do 95% of what Mega Latios can do without taking up a Mega slot (and in terms of raw power, it's even slightly better), but in those rare cases where you've built a team that doesn't already have a Mega, you can slap a Latiosite on your Latios and give it a boost. The uses for it are pretty situational, sure, but the same could be said about most of these lower tier Megas. Mega Latios is still a fantastic Pokemon in its own right and as such deserves to be ranked somewhere, even if it's at the lowest rank possible given the low incentive to use it.

Also, if you're trying to find a niche for this guy, stop bringing up Dragon Dance sets lol. DD Mega Latios is bad just like DD Life Orb Latios is bad. OU currently has more viable Dragon Dance sweepers than it has ever had before, so unless you desperately need something that can outspeed a Scarf Garchomp or something at +1, you're never going to want to pick Mega Latios as a Dragon Dance sweeper. If you really want a niche that Mega Latios can succeed in (besides just being a luxury Mega), try an offensive Calm Mind set similar to what regular Latios uses. The extra bulk, lack of Life Orb recoil, and reduced Knock Off damage enable Mega Latios to set up more easily than regular Latios and give it more staying power, which is pretty important for a set designed to stay in and sweep rather than get in and hit things or Defog before getting out again. It's not a huge niche, but it's one that does the best to take advantage of the perks that Mega Latios has over its normal form.

So in summary, keep Mega Latios ranked at the very least (where you choose to put it is up to you), and stop using Dragon Dance as an argument.
 

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Okay, so here's the thing about Mega Latios. I see why it was dropped to C Rank. Heck, I can even understand dropping it to D. The opportunity cost with this thing is high, after all. But you can only go so far with the opportunity cost argument before it gets silly. Completely unranking a Mega that is literally a buffed up version of a Pokemon currently in A+ rank is downright insulting. No, you probably aren't going to pick it over a different Mega very often when regular Latios can do 95% of what Mega Latios can do without taking up a Mega slot (and in terms of raw power, it's even slightly better), but in those rare cases where you've built a team that doesn't already have a Mega, you can slap a Latiosite on your Latios and give it a boost. The uses for it are pretty situational, sure, but the same could be said about most of these lower tier Megas. Mega Latios is still a fantastic Pokemon in its own right and as such deserves to be ranked somewhere, even if it's at the lowest rank possible given the low incentive to use it.

Also, if you're trying to find a niche for this guy, stop bringing up Dragon Dance sets lol. DD Mega Latios is bad just like DD Life Orb Latios is bad. OU currently has more viable Dragon Dance sweepers than it has ever had before, so unless you desperately need something that can outspeed a Scarf Garchomp or something at +1, you're never going to want to pick Mega Latios as a Dragon Dance sweeper. If you really want a niche that Mega Latios can succeed in (besides just being a luxury Mega), try an offensive Calm Mind set similar to what regular Latios uses. The extra bulk, lack of Life Orb recoil, and reduced Knock Off damage enable Mega Latios to set up more easily than regular Latios and give it more staying power, which is pretty important for a set designed to stay in and sweep rather than get in and hit things or Defog before getting out again. It's not a huge niche, but it's one that does the best to take advantage of the perks that Mega Latios has over its normal form.

So in summary, keep Mega Latios ranked at the very least (where you choose to put it is up to you), and stop using Dragon Dance as an argument.
Uh I dont exactly care so much about the whole opportunity cost argument sort of stupid in terms of just the mon as a whole. Also lol yeah dragon dance mlatios is dumb not sure how this was ever considered a good idea. Im asking why would I use this over mega latias? I havent found a single situation where I go, oh I dont have a mega but I have latios so let me use mega latios when more than likely I went and said to myself "just gonna go with mega latias because its fat as hell in stats and because of the bulk can set up really easier and proceed to do damage after a cm or more."
 
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