np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Scr3d]

The post #268 suggested (tho vastly already addressed as the non actual problem, which just about has me wondering where the "knowledge" of the Super 5 - tho that was only one of them - calling these suspects differs from, say, for example, my knowledge) to possibly have King Shield only removed. If that is not even the issue, why asking for it?

Anyway, as for the last posts: about team building specifically for "checking" Aegislash (cause apparently it lacks any counter (?)) what was employed "back" in X-Y and what has been employed the most these last two weeks? Any data in this regard?

There are counters for specific Aegi sets, but as far as I am aware there are no 100% defensive Aegi counters. Mandibuzz and Bisharp have both been used as switch ins to Aegi (for this suspect at least; I didn't play much in XY), but they get destroyed by Head Smash and Secret Sword respectively-and bisharp can't even constantly switch into Shadow Balls. Mixed Hippo is perhaps the most consistent switch in but gets screwed over by the SpDef drop of Shadow Ball. Offensive checks are reasonably common, Landorus-I being the most notable, but offensive checks can't reliably switch into Aegi. Sub users and set up sweepers that manhandle Aegi and can take advantage of King's Shield are also used. CroCune (or the roar variant), CM Manaphy, Diggersby, Thundurus and the like have all gotten better with Aegi in the tier.

To address the comment about King's shield, it is a huge part of the issue. It allows Aegislash to effectively have 720 total base stats-the same as Arceus. Obviously no one is saying Aegislash is on the level of Arceus but great typing on top of monstrous offenses and defenses is a problem when said mon can freely switch between the offensive and defensive formes. That isn't even taking into account the attack drop contact moves create - which annihilates mons like Tyranitar or Mega Gallade who would attempt to hit Aegi with a dark type move.

On top of these features, King's Shield creates a massive number of relevant 50/50s in the games in which it is involved. Think of this situation: Aegislash takes 30% damage from a mon then kills it with shadow ball. Mega Gallade is switched in to deal with the Aegislash that is now in Blade Forme. The Aegislash player can choose either King's Shield or Shadow Ball. The Gallade player can choose either knock off or SD. Each player makes a 50/50 decision and each player benefits from 50% of the scenarios. This is truly a coinflip which will likely decide the game; and this sort of thing comes up all the time in games involving Aegislash.

I am not personally for banning King's Shield for reasons I wont get into here, but suffice it to say King's shield is a huge part of the problem and in my opinion Aegislash's massive versatility, bulk, and offenses warrant it to stay in Ubers.

edit::caPiTaliZatIon

 

[Of Moose & Men]

B)The metagame where anything that is a threat to making it stay stable and stale is banned right away and the enternal loop of being in a stake Metagame. This is what you guys want.

Jesus Christ. . . This shit again, thought we were over this. Let me explain something to you. This, is the dumbest thing anyone can ever say. Do you really, answer this honestly, think Aegislash fucking stops this "eternal damnation of banning hell"? We've already explained how yes, Aegislash makes some threats not broken, but instead makes others that were not perceived as such, broken. Mega Lopunny had a healthy bit of centralization prior to the Aegi drop and now that Aegi is gone. Then Aegi dropped and it became THE force for all teams a like, because whatever checked Aegi, Lopunny checked, and vise versa. Many including myself, who admittedly loves Lopunny more than any mega in OU (RIP Mawile), can agree Mega Lopunny becomes more broken than anything bar Landorus. So guess what, dropping aegi doesn't stop this "loop hole of bans" you like to believe exists, which it doesn't (see late XY). You can hate Smogon, that's fine (which is more so what I'm picking up than understanding of the meta), but please, don't bring this up again, I've seen it every suspect test, and it's gotten old. Keeping MegaGross was supposed to stop the vortex of Suspect tests, but my gawd, would you look where we are now. . .

AM edit:removed tldr comment

EDIT; Sorry AM, got worked up lol.
TLDR; let's not go down this road again.

 

[radianthero156]

many wrong points have been made wtf

firstly, no one cares about how mons from lower tiers fare against aegi. (oh, aegi outclasses doublade? damn, who could've thought) and the list of mons you brought up (durant? seriously?) are incredibly niche or downright terrible, the addition of aegi doesn't really change much. and as i've said several times, if you think the addition of aegi restricta restricts creativity, check out the suspect tours. you're not being creative by using an OU mon like gardevoir, it's about using stuff from like 2% usage like zygarde, or even medicham (which doesn't realy become fully unviable in the aegi meta, just riskier). and yeah aegi does have 100% counters, like sdef Gliscor. saying that isn't a counter because aegi might have LO hp ice is like saying Hippowdon isn't a ttar counter because the latter might have specs ice beam. I've also had success using krookodile as a counter.

as for the post above i'd like to read an explanation as to why lopunny is broken in the aegi meta when it was the 5th most used mon in suspect tours and had a < 50% win rate.

 

[kumiko]

- What overcentralization for Aegislash is so required anyway? It's no sheer ridicolous Mega Kangaskhan/Mega Gengar; It's no extra 20 Speed, massive Def/Atk output boost Mega Salamence (I called that ban when I saw its new speed, tho speed might sound pointless to some), it's no SuperFast-MassOHKO-AllSTAB-arChansey-Greninja; it's no 80 BP Priority backed by 105+Huge Power Mega Mawile (altough on that one, well, I lack enough data to comment in its defense, so no comment); it can run a plethora of sets, cool. so what? Is it the only one versatile Pokèmon? Landorus-T, Latios, Landorus-I, Mega Charizard Y (who can do more than just spam FireBlast/Flamethrower/Use Dpulse,SolarBeam, FocusBlast as coverage or Roost and the D-Dance I've seen for the sake of ... wasting a slot and letting an "idiot" wonder if it's using CharizarditeX) Talonflame, Rotom-W, BRELOOM (who someone blatantly (or stupidly) mentioned it DROPPING IN USAGE if Aegislash is ever to return), list might go on; not to mention, its so called "versatility" still has it leaning towards 1-2 sets, at best; while the rest gets outclassed; so, what "exactly" is it kept even banned for or question in its ban for? All I have read are melodramatics "the epithome of ridicolousness and overcentalizing 50-50 cents and whatnot".

None of the Pokemon you listed are near as versatile as Aegislash. Aegislash can run offensive and defensive sets, having insane bulk and good or great offensive output no matter the set. Landorus-T can run Scarf, SD (Salac or Double Dance), or SR. SR Land-T isn't even good anymore, with the rise of things like Lopunny it gets competition vs Hippowdon, which is better in most cases. Latios has niche sets like Memento, but besides that it can only Defog and Calm Mind, not really that versatile. Lando-I will either be RP, SR, or 4 Atks, there isnt another set that's seen often. Charizard Y has no versatility, Dragon Pulse is terrible on it and Dragon Dance is a joke of a set. Charizard Y literally only has one set, and it's Fire Blast/Flamethrower | Solarbeam | Focus Blast | Roost. Talonflame can go offensive, stallbreaking, or bulky SD, so it's decently versatile. Rotom-W lol. It only has one good set that isn't niche, and that's the standard one. Breloom isn't even good without Aegislash.

Aegislash has so many sets, they don't "outclass" other sets, it depends upon what you want to do with Aegislash and what kind of team you're running / you want to run. Aegislash can run the standard leftovers three attacks, spell tag three attacks, air balloon 4 atks, pursuit, balloon w/ pursuit, life orb, subtoxic, sub two attacks, and lo sd. All are viable and none of them "outclass" another. Unless you're playing full stall or hyper offense it's insanely hard to accurately guess what kind of set a competent player will be running.

You mention overcentralization but didn't explain why you don't think it's overcentralizing. Aegislash had 52.7% usage in the live suspect tours and a 48.3% win percentage. Everyone knew Aegislash was going to be brought and it still managed to win nearly half of its games, and this includes Aegislash vs Aegislash games.

- It's SLOW (and I mean, SLOW) AND its tanking capabilities only take it thus far and not as far as to even require an EQuake, Earth Power, Ghost, Dark, Fire Attack to wear it down; strong neutral attacks will STILL dent its so good "non recovery tanking capabilities" (Water Attacks from that "disgusting Pony Unicorn I mean Keldeo", tho still what you call an "S rank", but even "non S Ranks", like Gyarados, not to mention the already existing plethora of attackers which already used to pack attacks which also happen to put a huge dent on Aegislash like Knock Off Scizor, Azumarill (which is also slower than Aegislash and can hit it in Blade form AFTER TAKING A HIT), anything out of the 20+ Pokemon that can learn it ("oh noes, king shield"), VENUSAUR (a beast which might also require some specific team building, else you'll have a not so easy time beating down a "Tank" or "Wall" which actually packs some decent recovery and solid attacks, tho can still get worn down), the "dropping" BRELOOM (who can just put it to sleep and call it a day, similar to Venusaur, tho not necessarely), and I might just go on; my point is, I don't understand this overcentralization at all; as "someone" said, "checks suffice; and I can count more than Landorus-I's or Charizard-Y's, to be fair.

Aegislash has crazy bulk, it may be possible to "wear it down" but it's not near as easy as you make it out to be, and if you're switching Aegislash into a Keldeo or your opponent is someone is making some pretty bad plays. Aegislash isn't a 'Mon that is going to beat every single 'Mon, it's one that's insanely strong and bulky that beats over half of the metagame by itself. Idk why people keep mentioning Gyarados as an answer to Aegislash. One of these will happen;
A) You're switching it into a Shadow Ball / forcing a 50/50 on switching vs attacking on the King's Shield / Attack, and if you lose your Gyarados will lose 50% of its health.
B) You'll give Gyarados a free switch, whether by U-Turning on the switch in with something like Jirachi or Celebi, saccing a 'Mon to Aegislash, or making a double switch. Only one of these is a smart move and that's u-turning, which isn't something you'll be able to do everytime and is definitely not going to be reliable. Double switching is perfectly fine if you're capable to pull it off, but the risk vs reward shows it's very rarely worth actually pulling it off, especially with a 'Mon like Gyarados, which will most likely be your primary win condition. Not saying it can't be done, but it's a very risky move and not something you should have to rely on vs what would be the most common 'Mon. If you have to sac something to Aegislash to bring in a Mon, you probably can find a better answer or just maybe this 'Mon is broken.

Things like Scizor, Azumarill, and Venusaur are obviously things that Aegislash shouldn't be staying in on, but none of them can safely switch in and consistently. All three lost straight up to fast LO Aegislash (Shadow Ball and Iron Head 2HKO all three), Spell Tag 2HKOs Venu and Scizor, and it's just insanely easily to wear down Azumarill to the point it can't check Aegislash / another 'Mon it would need to check anymore. None of those are legit answers nor are they safe. Venusaur is a good check but it needs HP Fire / Knock Off to beat it reliably and still losses to fast Aegislash, plus it also gets worn down insanely easily.

- As far as having Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham (who already damn lost its "power", or should I say "hype" anyway), Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, other Pokemons (NOT) losing their "usage" (but simply having one more Pokèmon to consider when building a team around them), I can (not really) see the concern about this (however; if a Mega or non Pokèmon is already in the need of specific support for handling some threats, wouldn't that still warrant an inferior usage compared to other Megas-Non who require LESS support? Like Metagross, Landorus-I, Charizard-Y, Keldeo, etc); so what if people MIGHT end up (POSSIBILITY) using Gardevoir/Gallade/Heracross less but ALSO end up using Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria less (which people seem to be complaining about)? My major complain is that you people just keep banning things to "balance the equation" (which still remains unbalanced anyway).

The fact Aeigslash cripples things like Metagross, Lopunny, and Altaria is not reason to bring it back down, quite the opposite. You don't bring down one broken 'Mon to check more broken 'Mons, you ban the ones that are overpowered or overcentralizing. You'll never see something like Lugia come down to OU just so Landorus-I isn't broken, or anything ridiculous like that. Broken checking broken is a terrible philosophy and isn't at all a legit reason to bring any 'Mon down. You bring a 'Mon back down if it isn't going to be insanely overpowered or overcentralizing, and Aegislash is definitely not a 'Mon that should come back down.

 

[Norne]

many wrong points have been made wtf

firstly, no one cares about how mons from lower tiers fare against aegi. (oh, aegi outclasses doublade? damn, who could've thought) and the list of mons you brought up (durant? seriously?) are incredibly niche or downright terrible, the addition of aegi doesn't really change much. and as i've said several times, if you think the addition of aegi restricta restricts creativity, check out the suspect tours. you're not being creative by using an OU mon like gardevoir, it's about using stuff from like 2% usage like zygarde, or even medicham (which doesn't realy become fully unviable in the aegi meta, just riskier). and yeah aegi does have 100% counters, like sdef Gliscor. saying that isn't a counter because aegi might have LO hp ice is like saying Hippowdon isn't a ttar counter because the latter might have specs ice beam. I've also had success using krookodile as a counter.

as for the post above i'd like to read an explanation as to why lopunny is broken in the aegi meta when it was the 5th most used mon in suspect tours and had a < 50% win rate.

I wouldn't really count a tournament as a sizeable standard for evaluating a pokemon but rather as a sample size for the experiment. The 2% argument is pretty much hipster talk at this point, if a pokemon successfully fills a niche I couldn't care less about its usage unless I'm forced to rely on the surprise factor when speed creeping.

I ran 4 attacks lo aegis along with subtoxic, HP Ice was my coverage of choice as chessnaugth rose in usage more than spdef gliscor, I enjoyed pummeling the guy down with HP Ice as it hits with the same strength of flash Cannon but hits the potential gliscor switch in harder. I could have been the only one but worked for me.

I wouldn't call Krookodile a counter, just a check, not a reliable one unless you miss speed EVs.

And honestly trendy pokemon that have a somewhat decent for of centralization are bound to have low win rate as low rating guys and a bunch of role players often use them on their teams. So saying a pokemon with high usage but not above 50% win rate as a balance argument is in my opinion shortsighted. The fact alone that aegislash discourages the usage of pokemon that deal with lopunny and it's spike in popularity are proof enough of how the team building process is affected. However in tournament play the overpreparation for lopunny was kind of jarring at this point, so one could argue that was it's demise,i had a higher success rate in higher rankings exploiting mega pidgeot and Mega manectric than mega lopunny rush hour at the beginning of the ladder.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

as for the post above i'd like to read an explanation as to why lopunny is broken in the aegi meta when it was the 5th most used mon in suspect tours and had a < 50% win rate.

Aside from Aegislash being the perfect support for it to run train on teams? Thanks to Aegislash everything that once threatened Lopunny is taken care of, giving it free reign on the tier. I can't speak for the tournament side of the suspect as I did not participate in it, but usage means nothing to be quite frank. Mega Mawile had relatively low usage but was in every way broken. However, if what Norne said is true and the tour side was over prepared for Lopunny, then I think it's safe to say it's a huge problem to the meta when Aegislash is introduced. Again, I didn't participate, I wouldn't know, but we aren't exactly doing this exclusively for the tour side anyways, so that's about 50% of the battle.

 

[MANNAT]

I'll admit that I was a bit hasty about comparing m-gyara to aegi, however a +2 aegi isn't some kind of unstoppable behemoth either. For example, Mandibuzz can swap into any move other then head smash and ohko with foul play

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 290-343 (68.5 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 73-86 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-312 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 66-78 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Using the vs all calculater, I've also found Hippo, Quagsire(bolded because unaware quag is an unbelievably hard stop to this and is actually a pretty good mon on top of that), Zygarde, and M-Aggron as very solid SD aegi counters/checks. This isn't even taking into consideration that SD aegi is pretty easy to revenge kill.

Note that since SD aegi can only run 3 out of the 5 physical moves that he would want to run (shadow claw, shadow sneak, sacred sword, head smash, iron head), many mons can check him if he is missing one of those moves. For example, pdef gastrodon is a solid check to non-shadow claw varients, while pdef unaware clefable destroys any aegi lacking iron head.

This has probably been beaten to death by now, but the problem is that Aegislash can beat all of the answers to SD Aegi with another set, so one mon may switch in fearing one set when it ends up losing to another. Mandi Switches into a set that looks like crumbler (non wp of course) and then it can get bopped by head smash because it is just an AoA set bluffing Crumbler, Clef can switch into "sub toxic" and get smashed by flash cannon or iron head. The list of possibilities is endless and just how impossible it is to counter Aegi is just plain stupid to me.

 

[Kyonshein]

I think it would fill a valuable role in the current OU meta in controlling some of the relevant Pokemon which are power creeping the meta, like Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, to name a few. Although it is able to check some of tier greatest threats, it is still limited by a sizeable amount of relevant threats like Mega Charizard Y, Landorus-I, Gengar and so on. Its offensive pressenses can also be benefinical at breaking apart some of the tiers most solid walls, such as Vanilla and Mega Slowbro, Clefable, Celebi and so on. With this in mind I believe that it lacks the diversity in both its defensive and offensive capability to become a overcentralising or broken Pokemon in this current meta.Aegislash is facility counter by M-Sableye :


252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 76-91 (25 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO

And over Pokémon in Ou :

Altaria special attacker:
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 322-382 (99.3 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 242-283 (74.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Etc etc.

 

[teal6]

This has probably been beaten to death by now, but the problem is that Aegislash can beat all of the answers to SD Aegi with another set, so one mon may switch in fearing one set when it ends up losing to another. Mandi Switches into a set that looks like crumbler (non wp of course) and then it can get bopped by head smash because it is just an AoA set bluffing Crumbler, Clef can switch into "sub toxic" and get smashed by flash cannon or iron head. The list of possibilities is endless and just how impossible it is to counter Aegi is just plain stupid to me.

Gee, if only there were some way to bait out the moves that he may have, as coverage - some sort of technique, in order to ascertain which of the possible sets may currently be in use. Alas, it appears to be impossible, as Aegislash exists in Schroedinger's Metagame, where he is always running exactly what he needs, never a wasted moveslot.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Gee, if only there were some way to bait out the moves that he may have, as coverage - some sort of technique, in order to ascertain which of the possible sets may currently be in use. Alas, it appears to be impossible, as Aegislash exists in Schroedinger's Metagame, where he is always running exactly what he needs, never a wasted moveslot.

Well, no, there is never a wasted slot, Aegislash doesn't ever suffer from that. It may not have what it needs for "X" mon but it doesn't have a wasted slot, there's frankly, no such thing. But ya see, we had this same problem with a previous suspect. . . Yea, you can scout, there's no denying this, but let's be honest here, how easy is that really when you consider knowing one move doesn't mean you know all 4? It's not like Aegislash has insane power and bulk or anything making it pretty damn hard to do considering it has 3-4 moves in which you have no clue what they are. Not to say it can't be done, but, being able to scout around it isn't saving it. . .

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Gee, if only there were some way to bait out the moves that he may have, as coverage - some sort of technique, in order to ascertain which of the possible sets may currently be in use. Alas, it appears to be impossible, as Aegislash exists in Schroedinger's Metagame, where he is always running exactly what he needs, never a wasted moveslot.

There literally isn't a single move you're 100% sure Aegislash will run. You're sure Bisharp will run knock off. Gyarados will run waterfall. But even if I see Shadow sneak I have no idea what item or moves it has besides shadow sneak

 

[MANNAT]

Gee, if only there were some way to bait out the moves that he may have, as coverage - some sort of technique, in order to ascertain which of the possible sets may currently be in use. Alas, it appears to be impossible, as Aegislash exists in Schroedinger's Metagame, where he is always running exactly what he needs, never a wasted moveslot.

I'm saying that the fact that you have no idea what coverage moves Aegi has until he uses them because STAB shadow ball is so fucking reliable in the suspect meta (bar lop) and he doesn't always run what he needs, it's just that his sheer versatility can cost you games because you won't know what set Aegi has until you've properly scouted it out. An example would be that Aegi has been spamming shadow ball and KS all game, but you bring in Mandibuzz thinking that it is a safe switch in only to get badly poisoned and crippled because it happens to be the sub toxic set, not the crumbler. Aegi is so damn versatile that he can straight out win a game because you do not actually know what set he is running. This among other things really proves how unhealthy Aegi is for the meta. So it would be nice if you wouldn't pretend that knowing how to deal with Aegi is just "scouting out what set it has" because that can end very badly if you do it wrong.

 

[fyourblog]

An example would be that Aegi has been spamming shadow ball and KS all game, but you bring in Mandibuzz thinking that it is a safe switch in only to get badly poisoned and crippled because it happens to be the sub toxic set, not the crumbler. Aegi is so damn versatile that he can straight out win a game because you do not actually know what set he is running. This among other things really proves how unhealthy Aegi is for the meta.

This can be said for literally any pokemon that carries multiple sets. Your anecdotal evidence is misleading because you can always make an educated guess to what an Aegi is running. If an Aegi is spamming SB and KS but is running Leftovers and hasn't King's shield all game, then it's probably sub toxic. It's something that's not too hard to decipher.

You never really know what any set any poke is running except for some cherry-picked examples above (ie Bisharp runs knock off, Gyara runs Waterfall). What about all those pokes that can be versatile. What about LO analytic Starmie that will OHKO your switch in because you thought it was lefties scald. What about sub Mega Alakazam that can absolutely destroy your team if you make the wrong move. Or taunt sub M-Gyara. The list of versatile pokes goes on and on. The difference is unbanning Aegislash centralizes the meta and allows teambuilding to be formed around a central enemy. Instead of teambuilding to fight off the many versatile threats in the current meta, you're building against one threat that has a versatile movepool. It's not as hard to scout Aegi as you claim.

 

[Merritt]

Gee, if only there were some way to bait out the moves that he may have, as coverage - some sort of technique, in order to ascertain which of the possible sets may currently be in use. Alas, it appears to be impossible, as Aegislash exists in Schroedinger's Metagame, where he is always running exactly what he needs, never a wasted moveslot.

Sure would be fantastic if I could do that during teambuilding.

As it is, even if you do bait out what Aegislash is running (SD, HP Ice, "standard" Crumbler) then you're already in the battle. You have to, in other words, run two Aegislash checks/counters and unlike other major threats which demand that, keep them both healthy, since Aegislash's sets have ways of getting around their counters, and if one counter is worn down that doesn't mean it's still capable of letting the other win. To use Mega Metagross, if you pack two counters (barring situational moves) then even if one or both get worn down they can still work together to take out MegaGross. Not always so for Aegislash.

Aegislash isn't necessarily putting strain on you in the middle of the match, but usually is before the match.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

This can be said for literally any pokemon that carries multiple sets. Your anecdotal evidence is misleading because you can always make an educated guess to what an Aegi is running. If an Aegi is spamming SB and KS but is running Leftovers and hasn't King's shield all game, then it's probably sub toxic. It's something that's not too hard to decipher.

You never really know what any set any poke is running except for some cherry-picked examples above (ie Bisharp runs knock off, Gyara runs Waterfall). What about all those pokes that can be versatile. What about LO analytic Starmie that will OHKO your switch in because you thought it was lefties scald. What about sub Mega Alakazam that can absolutely destroy your team if you make the wrong move. Or taunt sub M-Gyara. The list of versatile pokes goes on and on. The difference is unbanning Aegislash centralizes the meta and allows teambuilding to be formed around a central enemy. Instead of teambuilding to fight off the many versatile threats in the current meta, you're building against one threat that has a versatile movepool. It's not as hard to scout Aegi as you claim.

With so few Aegislash switch ins what are you doing through out the match to scout? You're switching into your Landorus-t then AFTER you take a shadow ball to the face you switch to your Mandibuzz?

 

[MZ]

This can be said for literally any pokemon that carries multiple sets. Your anecdotal evidence is misleading because you can always make an educated guess to what an Aegi is running. If an Aegi is spamming SB and KS but is running Leftovers and hasn't King's shield all game, then it's probably sub toxic. It's something that's not too hard to decipher.

You never really know what any set any poke is running except for some cherry-picked examples above (ie Bisharp runs knock off, Gyara runs Waterfall). What about all those pokes that can be versatile. What about LO analytic Starmie that will OHKO your switch in because you thought it was lefties scald. What about sub Mega Alakazam that can absolutely destroy your team if you make the wrong move. Or taunt sub M-Gyara. The list of versatile pokes goes on and on. The difference is unbanning Aegislash centralizes the meta and allows teambuilding to be formed around a central enemy. Instead of teambuilding to fight off the many versatile threats in the current meta, you're building against one threat that has a versatile movepool. It's not as hard to scout Aegi as you claim.

The difference between Aegislash and, say, starmie or megazam or mega Gyarados like you brought up is that it has far more sets, far more versatility and far more viable moves to run, each having different counters and each potentially doing massive damage as you scout out the set. Taunt sub Gyarados still loses to mega altaria and analytic starmie still won't beat Chansey. Aegislash can and will beat any potential counter and will still be about as good of a blanket check and strong offensive mon as it would with other sets.

 

[fyourblog]

With so few Aegislash switch ins what are you doing through out the match to scout? You're switching into your Landorus-t then AFTER you take a shadow ball to the face you switch to your Mandibuzz?

Why are you switching your Lando in before your Mandibuzz? Mandibuzz is the prime counter and should be used to scout if you have it. There are several counters and checks you can put in to scout. Rotom-W isn't even a counter or check and it can still come in on a shadow ball, pain split the damage, and volt switch away to scout moves.

The difference between Aegislash and, say, starmie or megazam or mega Gyarados like you brought up is that it has far more sets, far more versatility and far more viable moves to run, each having different counters and each potentially doing massive damage as you scout out the set. Taunt sub Gyarados still loses to mega altaria and analytic starmie still won't beat Chansey. Aegislash can and will beat any potential counter and will still be about as good of a blanket check and strong offensive mon as it would with other sets.

Then we have a difference of opinion in terms of "viable sets". 4 attack LO aegi and SD aegi are not viable to me. Special Aegi with Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon/Sacred Sword is Aegi's best and most common sets, and they still lose to certain mons (Mandibuzz, SpD Gliscor, M-Sableye, Klefki). If Aegislash could beat any counter then there would be no conversation or argument-- it would be extremely overpowered. But the fact that there is an argument points to the evidence that there are counters.

 

[pika pal]

The big issue with trying to scout an Aegislash set is that Aegislash isn't easily pressured into revealing its set bar maybe the fully physical ones for SD because of how reliable his Shadow Ball is.

The most effective way to scout a move is to have something that can bait/force the opponent to use the move you're expecting, since you can figure out if they have it based on how they react to that scenario. The problem is that Aegislash can absolutely afford on some sets to dedicate a move specifically to the opponent. Scouting for HP Ice to keep your Gliscor safe is almost impossible because Aegislash probably runs it fully expecting to only hit Gliscor (or whatever other team member he benefits his partners by removing). Usually the only thing that can get Aegisash to reveal his lure move is the thing he's trying to lure, and bringing that in is risky in and of itself.

Why are you switching your Lando in before your Mandibuzz? Mandibuzz is the prime counter and should be used to scout if you have it. There are several counters and checks you can put in to scout. Rotom-W isn't even a counter or check and it can still come in on a shadow ball, pain split the damage, and volt switch away to scout moves.




Then we have a difference of opinion in terms of "viable sets". 4 attack LO aegi and SD aegi are not viable to me. Special Aegi with Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon/Sacred Sword is Aegi's best and most common sets, and they still lose to certain mons (Mandibuzz, SpD Gliscor, M-Sableye). If Aegislash could beat any counter then there would be no conversation or argument-- it would be extremely overpowered. But the fact that there is an argument points to the evidence that there are counters.

Because if Aegislash is indeed carrying Head Smash, Lando-T is a safer thing to bring in because of neutrality and Intimidate. If the Prime counter to Aegislash eats that Lure move, you just lost your best answer to the Sword, when your other option was treading on egg shells with switches while Aegislash and Co. lays into your team with other moves trying to bait if Mandibuzz is in fact safe to come in.

Whatever you define "viable sets" as, 4 attack LO and Fast Swords Dance (Stance Dance is ass granted) are sets that people do indeed consider threatening enough to prepare for. Whether or not they are equally viable to Crumbler or SubToxic, they are viable options that allow Aegislash to beat his other sets checks and still more than adequately serve his role.

 

[fyourblog]

Because if Aegislash is indeed carrying Head Smash, Lando-T is a safer thing to bring in because of neutrality and Intimidate. If the Prime counter to Aegislash eats that Lure move, you just lost your best answer to the Sword, when your other option was treading on egg shells with switches while Aegislash and Co. lays into your team with other moves trying to bait if Mandibuzz is in fact safe to come in.

So are we expected to ban something on a move that's usage is less than 10% in sets? An Aegi running adamant 252+ Head Smash lose coverage on a long list of pokes. I checked the stats and:

Moves | | King's Shield 84.868% | | Shadow Ball 77.948% | | Shadow Sneak 67.339% | | Sacred Sword 47.807% | | Flash Cannon 38.414% | | Iron Head 19.255% | | Swords Dance 17.251% | | Substitute 15.312% | | Toxic 11.571% | | Pursuit 11.014% | | Other 9.221%

I can't even find HS listed. So at best Head Smash is less than 10% in usage. Realistically speaking, it's probably less than ~5%. Aegi's Head Smash isn't a viable argument. Rarely anyone carries it, and if you do carry it, you're probably losing to half the other pokes that Aegi can effectively threaten. Also its an 80% acc move with 1/2 recoil.

Whatever you define "viable sets" as, 4 attack LO and Fast SD (Stance Dance is ass granted) are sets that people do indeed consider threatening enough to prepare for. Whether or not they are equally viable to Crumbler or SubToxic, they are viable options that allow Aegislash to beat his other sets checks and still more than adequately serve his role.

If we banned things based on what "people" consider threatening half of OU would be banned. There's a reason why we ask people to get reqs before they try to speak like they know they're talking about. You yourself admit that SD Aegi is ass and really doesn't compare to Crumbler. 4 LO is pretty terrible too because you lose to every physical check that would otherwise be a 50/50 predict. Honestly, if you find 4 LO or SD threatening then you're probably playing against Aegi wrong. There are many ways to get around those sets, and you really don't need to prepare that much for them. Your focus and concern should be the Crumbler set. It is by far the strongest in terms of usage and viability. And preparing for the Crumbler set can be simple when team building for it.

 

[MANNAT]

This can be said for literally any pokemon that carries multiple sets. Your anecdotal evidence is misleading because you can always make an educated guess to what an Aegi is running. If an Aegi is spamming SB and KS but is running Leftovers and hasn't King's shield all game, then it's probably sub toxic. It's something that's not too hard to decipher.

You never really know what any set any poke is running except for some cherry-picked examples above (ie Bisharp runs knock off, Gyara runs Waterfall). What about all those pokes that can be versatile. What about LO analytic Starmie that will OHKO your switch in because you thought it was lefties scald. What about sub Mega Alakazam that can absolutely destroy your team if you make the wrong move. Or taunt sub M-Gyara. The list of versatile pokes goes on and on. The difference is unbanning Aegislash centralizes the meta and allows teambuilding to be formed around a central enemy. Instead of teambuilding to fight off the many versatile threats in the current meta, you're building against one threat that has a versatile movepool. It's not as hard to scout Aegi as you claim.

KS stands for King's shield... :/

 

[fyourblog]

KS stands for King's shield... :/

Whoops, I don't why I read that as SS (Sacred Sword). Regardless, my point still stands. If it's spamming SB and KS and running Lefties, you can still make an educated guess as to what set its running. Also subtoxic loses out on a plethora of other pokes, such a Bisharp, Glis, Togekiss, Chansey, etc. There's a reason why it's rarely used.

 

[MANNAT]

Why are you switching your Lando in before your Mandibuzz? Mandibuzz is the prime counter and should be used to scout if you have it. There are several counters and checks you can put in to scout. Rotom-W isn't even a counter or check and it can still come in on a shadow ball, pain split the damage, and volt switch away to scout moves.




Then we have a difference of opinion in terms of "viable sets". 4 attack LO aegi and SD aegi are not viable to me. Special Aegi with Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon/Sacred Sword is Aegi's best and most common sets, and they still lose to certain mons (Mandibuzz, SpD Gliscor, M-Sableye, Klefki). If Aegislash could beat any counter then there would be no conversation or argument-- it would be extremely overpowered. But the fact that there is an argument points to the evidence that there are counters.

First of all, the "unviable" SD set you are referring to is sneak dance, and LO 4 attacks actually allows Aegi to get around a lot of its common counters. Aegi can beat every single one of the mons that you listed with a perfectly viable move, in fact, let's calc this.

VS Mandi
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 306-362 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

VS SpD Gliscor
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO

VS M-Sableye
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS Klefki
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 165-195 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 56-68 (17.2 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

Aegi can take super effective hits because of its sheer bulk and fire back with powerful coverage or STAB moves, being able to beat every single one of its "counters" 1v1 with one of its many viable sets.

Whoops, I don't why I read that as SS (Sacred Sword). Regardless, my point still stands. If it's spamming SB and KS and running Lefties, you can still make an educated guess as to what set its running. Also subtoxic loses out on a plethora of other pokes, such a Bisharp, Glis, Togekiss, Chansey, etc. There's a reason why it's rarely used.

Your "educated guess" can easily end up backfiring and costing you the game if you are wrong, and subtoxic isn't supposed to kill every mon in the tier, it's to beat certain mons that the normal set can't beat 1v1 as well as wearing down opposing mons for teammates to sweep, so not only is it broken under the offensive characteristic with its offensive sets, its subtoxic set is an amazing set under the support or defensive characteristic.

 

[MZ]

So are we expected to ban something on a move that's usage is less than 10% in sets? An Aegi running adamant 252+ Head Smash lose coverage on a long list of pokes. I checked the stats and:

Moves | | King's Shield 84.868% | | Shadow Ball 77.948% | | Shadow Sneak 67.339% | | Sacred Sword 47.807% | | Flash Cannon 38.414% | | Iron Head 19.255% | | Swords Dance 17.251% | | Substitute 15.312% | | Toxic 11.571% | | Pursuit 11.014% | | Other 9.221%

I can't even find HS listed. So at best Head Smash is less than 10% in usage. Realistically speaking, it's probably less than ~5%. Aegi's Head Smash isn't a viable argument. Rarely anyone carries it, and if you do carry it, you're probably losing to half the other pokes that Aegi can effectively threaten.

I got reqs with adamant Head Smash Aegislash. If I'm not a big name player and that won't convince you of anything, Draeden passed me the set. Are we gonna throw out something perfectly viable just because you've suddenly decided it's not good? You don't just lose out to all the other pokes that Aegislash threatens, you're deciding what you want to hit and what you don't want to hit. Aegislash doesn't suddenly become not this amazing blanket check because we haven't run the set that you decided is viable.

If we banned things based on what "people" consider threatening half of OU would be banned. There's a reason why we ask people to get reqs before they try to speak like they know they're talking about.

Except a lot of very good players that aren't just randomly shouting "BAN TALONFLAME! BAN EXCADRILL!" want it banned. There's good and there's broken, and Aegislash is certainly at least arguable banworthy, even you cant deny that.

You yourself admit that SD Aegi is ass and really doesn't compare to Crumbler.

Actually, he said slow stance dance is bad and fast SD is good. Which I don't think anybody has been denying (you may think SD is worse than other Aegis sets, but it's not a straight up bad set that you just wouldnt run ever).

4 LO is pretty terrible too because you lose to every physical check that would otherwise be a 50/50 predict. Honestly, if you find 4 LO or SD threatening then you're probably playing against Aegi wrong. There are many ways to get around those sets, and you really don't need to prepare that much for them.

Honestly wanted to stop here since this was so ridiculous. The point of 4 attacks LO is that you're an amazing blanket check that also lacks switchins. You normally assume that Aegislash won't have every move to be threatening, but this one will. Plus, people will still be afraid of King's Shield. Again, if you're just gonna dismiss sets as being bad then of course your argument will sound better.

Your focus and concern should be the Crumbler set. It is by far the strongest in terms of usage and viability. And preparing for the Crumbler set can be simple when team building for it.

Ah, let me prepare for just the crumbler and get my ass handed to me when I encounter a different set that, despite your claims, is both used and viable. Sounds like a good plan man, thanks for that.

 

[pika pal]

So are we expected to ban something on a move that's usage is less than 10% in sets? An Aegi running adamant 252+ Head Smash lose coverage on a long list of pokes. I checked the stats and:

Moves | | King's Shield 84.868% | | Shadow Ball 77.948% | | Shadow Sneak 67.339% | | Sacred Sword 47.807% | | Flash Cannon 38.414% | | Iron Head 19.255% | | Swords Dance 17.251% | | Substitute 15.312% | | Toxic 11.571% | | Pursuit 11.014% | | Other 9.221%

I can't even find HS listed. So at best Head Smash is less than 10% in usage. Realistically speaking, it's probably less than ~5%. Aegi's Head Smash isn't a viable argument. Rarely anyone carries it, and if you do carry it, you're probably losing to half the other pokes that Aegi can effectively threaten. Also its an 80% acc move with 1/2 recoil.



If we banned things based on what "people" consider threatening half of OU would be banned. There's a reason why we ask people to get reqs before they try to speak like they know they're talking about. You yourself admit that SD Aegi is ass and really doesn't compare to Crumbler. 4 LO is pretty terrible too because you lose to every physical check that would otherwise be a 50/50 predict. Honestly, if you find 4 LO or SD threatening then you're probably playing against Aegi wrong. There are many ways to get around those sets, and you really don't need to prepare that much for them. Your focus and concern should be the Crumbler set. It is by far the strongest in terms of usage and viability. And preparing for the Crumbler set can be simple when team building for it.

I said fast Swords Dance, ergo 252 Att/252 Spe Jolly nature, SD + 3 Attacks. Stance Dance is the subpar set consisting of SD/KS/2 other attacks, which sucks because it lacks coverage. SD + 3 Attacks is a late game cleaner/sweeper that works because Aegi's bulk affords him a lot of set-up chances and lets him clean weakened teams with +2/+4 Priority and hard hitting options for bulky walls left.

4 Attack LO isn't particularly hindered by the lack of King's Shield because a typical sequence of events would be:
- Aegis enters
- Opponent switches, Aegislash attacks
- Aegislash leaves, since they probably wanted to bring in something bulky to tank the Shadow Ball

Aegislash got off a LO boosted STAB Shadow ball in that scenario, and arguably is better off leaving rather than putting up with a prediction gambit KS would entail for him anyway. Like a typical wallbreaker, his purpose is to fire off a strong attack or 2 and escape before retaliation. Not sure why you highlighted "Physical Check". If you mean checks to Physical Aegislash, LO 4 Attacks is usually mixed. Aegislash is also just very capable of wearing out his checks because he exhibits a good deal of pressure on the remaining team members.


Usage does not equate to viability. Just because Aegislash only has Head Smash 5% of the time doesn't make him any less effective that 5% when I do run into him and lose Mandibuzz. Hippowdon, until recently, was UU by usage but A by viability. Did that low usage mean I didn't have to worry about being able to beat Hippowdon because despite presenting a threat i wouldn't see him often? Of course not.

Aegislash threatens a lot of Pokemon on the basis of his STAB Shadow ball alone, which virtually every set bar SD + 3 Attacks is going to carry. He can threaten some other slightly more specific things with other move options, but Aegislash gets plenty of Pokemon by virtue of his typing, high natural bulk, and obscene power relative to his resilience.

And while I concede to not having Reqs, I played the XY Aegislash meta, I still played around on the suspect ladder, and these are factors that I noticed consistently both times and that even high level players who made Reqs have run across.

 

[radianthero156]

ok. aegi has no counters, ban it and case closed. next, lets ban hydreigon. it has fire/grass/electric/water/ghost/dark/ground resistances, can switch-in easily and HAS NO COUNTERS!!

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 442-520 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 405-477 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 670-790 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 456-540 (118.4 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 321-378 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

how is a mon that can get so many free turns and 2HKO literally every pokemon ever even allowed?