Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[thesecondbest]

MEGA LATIOS TO UNRANKED
It has no niche as it is always outclassed. The opportunity cost of using up your mega is not worth it any of the time. If you want a defensive or cm set, mega latias outclasses it, with access to reflect type, less wasted evs in attack, and far more bulk. If you want a dd set, it's terrible, use altaria. And it isn't even stronger than normal latios unless you go mixed:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%)
252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%)
252 Atk Mega Latios Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%)
It is never worth wasting your mega slot, and mega latias is often better. It has no niche and therefore does not deserve to be ranked.

 

[QuickBH]

thesecondbest Err....it's kind of been a discussion point for a while and it seems to be a thing that Mega Latios should at least not be unranked.

Kind of seems silly to continue it since it won't really get anywhere for now.

 

[Celticpride]

--> B-

Pretty sure Vertex has brought this up before, but Mega Shark should probably drop. It's OK in ideal conditions sure, but it's often difficult to get to those conditions. I remember someone mentioned that playing with Sharpedo feels like playing 6 on 5 at times and that couldn't be more true. Regular Sharp is pretty much useless (aka hard to put off losing Speed Boost), and Mega Sharp needs that +1 to sweep / clean effectively. I guess it's not total deadweight if it's Mega Evolved at +0 but it's obviously less effective, especially because it tends to run +Atk natures making its decent speed tier a little worse than it seems. It also has a heap of common checks on top of that, most notably Keldeo, Clefable, and Ferrothorn, and for something with as narrow an effective window as Sharpedo you'd probably want less common checks. Not totally awful or anything but kinda constricting when it comes to using it.

 

[BCE]

FINALLY ! i have the chance to rise Noivern. This thing deserves to be AT LEAST C+, Noivern is >= Mega pidgeot that is 2 rank up. 85/80/80 defs are good for its ranking and typing, that allows it to check keldeo and mach punch / aqua jet users, 97 sp atak is... ok and 123 speed is marvelous, allowing it to kill sceptile before mega evolving, to check serperior, to kill the stronger(?) mega-pidgeot and other things. Its ability frisk is really useful to know what kind of landorus, talonflame and etc you are facing, Infiltrator is good if you want to punish substitute users (again, keldeo and some gliscor). This thing can learn hurricane, draco meteor, air slash, flamethrower, shadow ball, focus blast, boom burst, taunt, u-turn, switcheroo. Switcheroo can really make the opponent sad to see his cleric with specs

This is the set i use:
Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane (in rain team ) / Air slash (No rain team)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Switcheroo

if you really dont like to use choice specs, you can use:

Noivern @ Lifeorb
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane (in rain team ) / Air slash (No rain team)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Boomburst / Taunt / Shadow ball / Focus blast / HP ( Ice )



lets do some calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 348-411 (109 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rain Team replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230678830
No Rain Team replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230699569

 

[Of Moose & Men]

MEGA LATIOS TO UNRANKED
It has no niche as it is always outclassed. The opportunity cost of using up your mega is not worth it any of the time. If you want a defensive or cm set, mega latias outclasses it, with access to reflect type, less wasted evs in attack, and far more bulk. If you want a dd set, it's terrible, use altaria. And it isn't even stronger than normal latios unless you go mixed:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%)
252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%)
252 Atk Mega Latios Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%)
It is never worth wasting your mega slot, and mega latias is often better. It has no niche and therefore does not deserve to be ranked.

Lack of recoil, and taking less from Knock off are two things it has over normal Latios. From what I've noticed, Mega Latios is sort of a Pokemon you just put on your team cause "eh, why not, I've got a Latios and no mega". It's not the greatest, but it definitely has some bit of usage.

I'll be making a nomination here pretty soon, but I've got to take my sister to dinner for her birthday, so I'll do it later.

 

[heritage]

lets do some calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A Choice Specs attack OHKOs something that is weak to the attacking type? That's not exactly a surprise, some calcs against more defensive Pokemon would be better

FINALLY ! i have the chance to rise Noivern. This thing deserves to be AT LEAST C+, Noivern is >= Mega pidgeot that is 2 rank up. 85/80/80 defs are good for its ranking and typing, that allows it to check keldeo and mach punch / aqua jet users, 97 sp atak is... ok and 123 speed is marvelous, allowing it to kill sceptile before mega evolving, to check serperior, to kill the stronger(?) mega-pidgeot and other things. Its ability frisk is really useful to know what kind of landorus, talonflame and etc you are facing, Infiltrator is good if you want to punish substitute users (again, keldeo and some gliscor). This thing can learn hurricane, draco meteor, air slash, flamethrower, shadow ball, focus blast, boom burst, taunt, u-turn, switcheroo. Switcheroo can really make the opponent sad to see his cleric with specs

This is the set i use:
Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane (in rain team ) / Air slash (No rain team)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Switcheroo

if you really dont like to use choice specs, you can use:

Noivern @ Lifeorb
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane (in rain team ) / Air slash (No rain team)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Boomburst / Taunt / Shadow ball / Focus blast / HP ( Ice )



lets do some calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 348-411 (109 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rain Team replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230678830
No Rain Team replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230699569

Honestly, your arguments for it to move up are pretty bad. The only reason Noivern is even ranked is for it's ability to Switcheroo common walls such as Chansey that attempt to switch into it, as well as a speedy Taunt, which you don't really bring light to. However, 97 Special Attack is piss weak, even with a boosting item, it's defenses are absolute garbage, and it's typing, while /decent/ offensively, leaves it weak to Stealth Rock and common attacking types such as Ice. This thing struggles to take resisted hits. It has to rely on moves such as Draco Meteor or Hurricane, which either lower its stats or have very low accuracy. On Rain teams, there is literally 0 reason to use it over Tornadus-T, except maybe Draco Meteor, which not only is more powerful, but can go mixed and has Regenerator. And hitting non-Mega Sceptile? Defiantly a top priority.
Also please stop saying that Noivern beats Pidgeot. That doesn't show off any of Noivern's potential at all.
So yeah, no, there is very little reason for Noivern to move up, but I can't see it moving down either. It's fine where it is in my honest opinion.

Edit @ below:
Ye sorry, this was a little mean, soz but i've had a little pent up aggression recently so
Not really an excuse for being an ass

 

[Dread Arceus]

jesus why you gotta be a dick to the poor guy, he's just trying to give his opinion :x
but yea, honestly, Noivern's inability to hit the broad side of a barn and low base special attack are serious negatives to it, not to mention it has stiff competition from the various other special dragon types in OU; including an S rank mon, the most common defoggers, and a couple wallbreakers. It's a neat mon and theoretically pretty solid assuming it actually hits, but it's just ridiculously hard to fit on a team. C- is good for it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright, I'm back and ready to nominate. . .

The Bae!

-> D

Alright, this may be a bit backed by my recent experience with Meloetta, but I really feel as though this needs to be ranked. It's admittedly not the greatest, which is why I'm not nominating it for anything absurd, though I do believe C- would be fitting as well, but don't want to get too far ahead of myself. What this thing does is actually quite appreciated by the meta. Not too many great normal types exist in this meta, and of the few that do, only a couple can pull off an offensive role, one of which being a mega. Now, what does that mean? Well, not many resistances exist to normal, and of the things that do, they are weak to its fighting STAB, bar ghost, which is why Mega Lopunny is so amazing in this meta, fast as hell, and great moves to spam, but the main downside being it takes up a mega slot. So, what if I told you there was a Pokemon that existed that was capable of doing this, while having a few extra tricks up its sleeve? In my personal experience with the mixed set, I've noticed how few switch ins this really has. It's also a pretty decent Ghost check, namely Gengar. Best part about it is, it can run SO many different sets, being an offensive cleric (which I wouldn't recommend over others, bu it exists), AV, LO mixed attack, among others. Although Meloetta does not have Scrappy, it does have knock off for dealing with Ghosts, which in some cases can be extremely helpful. The only real problem coming in having to rely on Relic song to use certain moves with as much power as possible. However, Meloetta really has no problem with this, though it does require some support. Being able to go mixed is also very helpful, it's also able to go full special, while not covering as many bases as it can with its mixed set. However, with incredible stats of 128 Spa and 128 Atk/Spe depending on form you can see why Meloetta hits hard as hell and how you want her to. So, essentially, when you have a mega and need something to do what Mega Lopunny can do relatively well, or a mixed cleaner, or sweeper look no further than yours truly.

 

[Taliheim]

Alright, I'm back and ready to nominate. . .

The Bae!

-> D

Alright, this may be a bit backed by my recent experience with Meloetta, but I really feel as though this needs to be ranked. It's admittedly not the greatest, which is why I'm not nominating it for anything absurd, though I do believe C- would be fitting as well, but don't want to get too far ahead of myself. What this thing does is actually quite appreciated by the meta. Not too many great normal types exist in this meta, and of the few that do, only a couple can pull off an offensive role, one of which being a mega. Now, what does that mean? Well, not many resistances exist to normal, and of the things that do, they are weak to its fighting STAB, bar ghost, which is why Mega Lopunny is so amazing in this meta, fast as hell, and great moves to spam, but the main downside being it takes up a mega slot. So, what if I told you there was a Pokemon that existed that was capable of doing this, while having a few extra tricks up its sleeve? In my personal experience with the mixed set, I've noticed how few switch ins this really has. It's also a pretty decent Ghost check, namely Gengar. Best part about it is, it can run SO many different sets, being an offensive cleric (which I wouldn't recommend over others, bu it exists), AV, LO mixed attack, among others. Although Meloetta does not have Scrappy, it does have knock off for dealing with Ghosts, which in some cases can be extremely helpful. The only real problem coming in having to rely on Relic song to use certain moves with as much power as possible. However, Meloetta really has no problem with this, though it does require some support. Being able to go mixed is also very helpful, it's also able to go full special, while not covering as many bases as it can with its mixed set. However, with incredible stats of 128 Spa and 128 Atk/Spe depending on form you can see why Meloetta hits hard as hell and how you want her to. So, essentially, when you have a mega and need something to do what Mega Lopunny can do relatively well, or a mixed cleaner, or sweeper look no further than yours truly.

Not a conspiracy

[01:47] Talenheim: moose I just realized how biased we'll look, the two users with melo avis supporting melo to D
[01:48] Talenheim: nope, no favoritism here, what are you talking about
[01:48] +MuhFugginMoose: LOL, yea. . . No bias. . .

I fully agree with this nomination. Meloetta's infamous for being one of the better Aegislash checks while it was around, but outside of early XY and the suspect ladder, it's fallen off of the viability rankings and usage. However, I believe that it's time to get her back onto the rankings. Moose went over her strong points pretty well, but I'll reiterate them: a Psychic-Type that doesn't lose to Ghosts, an insane versatility of several different sets, great 100/128 Special bulk, and fantastic coverage are some of the big ones off the top of my head (though it's still pretty early ;_;). Her most famous set is the Assault Vest set, taking her great Special Bulk and fantastic coverage and putting it to good use, working as a special sponge that can hit back decently hard with the ability to hit pretty much anything, including Dark-types with Focus Blast. However, she has other sets outside of AV: Mixed Relic sets really mess with opponents, making them switch like crazy trying to keep up. Physically Biased or fully Physical Relic sets are also completely viable due to Pirouette forme boasting an insane 128 speed, and possessing a decent 128 Attack stat to boot. It can even run a Specs set; while facing competition with Sylveon, Meloetta's alternate typing and ability to hit harder outside of Hyper Voice, as well as being faster, give it a niche in that regard.

However, it's unfortunately weak to the omnipresent Knock Off and U-Turn, possesses a Speed Tier that is lacking at times, and has a poor physical bulk, so it's not all good.

EDIT: I'll dump some viable sets here, to give you an idea of it's versatility.

Sets

Meloetta @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

The known Assault Vest set is simply tickled by common Special attackers and hits back hard with good neutral coverage, the ability to break through special walls, and a way to hit Dark-types on the switch.

Meloetta @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock / Shadow Ball

The SubCM set sets up on the Pokemon the AV set would scare out, and can easily act as a win condition vs. bulkier teams.

Meloetta @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpA / 236 Spe OR 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Hyper Voice / Return

My personal favorite. After the opposing team is weakened sufficiently, Meloetta can come in and Relic Song (an easier ask than you would think) to achieve a respectable base 128 Attack and an insane 128 speed, KOing Pokemon after only a little it of Prior damage and speed-tying with Jolly Talonflame. The first set of EVs is to be used with Hyper Voice, and 2HKOs defensive Landog w/o rocks and defensive Slowbro with rocks, both good answers to her Pirouette forme. The second EV spread is to be used with Return, granting perfect coverage and giving some extra Special bulk. The 29 HP IVs are used to achieve a Life Orb number.

Meloetta @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Naive Nature
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Thunder / Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic / Ice Punch / Knock Off

The BW Mixed Relic set. While the EVs are probably outdated, the premise still stands: Force switches like no tomorrow. Mixed Relic has a ridiculous amount of options at its disposal, so I can't list them all here. It works well with hazard-stacking teams as it can threaten all the common hazard removers and rack up insane damage with all the switches it forces. Thunder also has a nifty 60% chance to Paralyze due to Serene Grace.

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Trick / Shadow Ball

While facing competition from Sylveon, Choice Specs Meloetta hits like a truck, with very little counters if any. What it has over Sylveon is a different typing, the ability to hit harder with moves not called Hyper Voice, and a higher speed tier.

There are even more options than what I listed - Dazzling Gleam can lure and beat M-Sableye, and it has supporting options such as Heal Bell, Perish Song, U-Turn, Thunder Wave, and Toxic.

I'm running out of time here, but tl;dr Meloetta -> D/C- (though C- would be pushing it a bit IMO)

 

[Kyuzeth]

On board with dropping Mega Sharpedo to B-. It's a good cleaner, but its base form has garbage defenses (and while Mega does improve, they don't become all that great), meaning even resisted attacks can greatly dent the thing (fortunately less the case with Megashark). Mega Sharpedo is overreliant on its base form's Speed Boost as well to get a +1 or +2 in and, once it's forced out, it simply can't do all that much. All for dropping the Shark.

Onto the main topic:

Mega Tyranitar
I'm not going to vouch it for a higher ranking. Instead, I intend to spark discussion about this Pokémon, as I've seen it discussed a few times and mentioned in posts detailing Mega Garchomp, whose rank it shares. Mega Tyranitar is often considered a luxury Mega, which I can agree with; however, I feel like this behemoth has some very standout traits that make it worth bringing up. First of all, unlike its base form, Mega Tyranitar is a set-up attacker, being able to choose between Dragon Dance and Rock Polish. With a Jolly nature, Mega Tyranitar hits 397 Speed at +1, a clutch number to outspeed base 130s with. Its Attack stat rises to a pretty dangerous level as well, so you've got quite a dangerous sweeper on your hands once it's boosted, which isn't hard to do considering its 100/150/120 (SDef is boosted in Sand) defensive stats. If Speed's your thing, Rock Polish works quite well, with which Mega Tyranitar turns into a powerful cleaner, preferably for late-game use. Adamant Rock Polish is less 'balanced' between speed and offense, but has its own uses that set it apart from Dragon Dance, namely picking off weakened teams later on after just one boost. It can't hold anything aside from the Tyranitarite, but 164 Attack is and remains a lot. It's got fantastic coverage, too, and is able to just pick whichever tool that lets it strike the intended targets: Crunch for Psychics, Earthquake for troublesome Steels, Ice Punch for Gliscor and both Landorus, and Thunder Punch for Water-types that decide to crash the party.
Now, the problems are that Mega Tyranitar has 7 weaknesses and some of them are extremely common (think Fairy and Steel, mostly), limiting its switch-in and set-up opportunities; it faces competition as a Dragon Dancer from Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X; and it's highly vulnerable to status in general, making it reliant on cleric support. All in all, Mega Tyranitar is a support-reliant, yet highly effective Pokémon in the right hands.

So which rank do you think Mega Tyranitar belongs in? Again, the main point here is to raise discussion on this Pokémon, as I feel it's an interesting case.

 

[AM]

On board with dropping Mega Sharpedo to B-. It's a good cleaner, but its base form has garbage defenses (and while Mega does improve, they don't become all that great), meaning it can't switch in as much as it'd want to. Mega Sharpedo is overreliant on its base form's Speed Boost as well to get a +1 or +2 in and, once it's forced out, it simply can't do all that much. All for dropping the Shark.

Onto the main topic:

Mega Tyranitar
I'm not going to vouch it for a higher ranking. Instead, I intend to spark discussion about this Pokémon, as I've seen it discussed a few times and mentioned in posts detailing Mega Garchomp, whose rank it shares. Mega Tyranitar is often considered a luxury Mega, which I can agree with; however, I feel like this behemoth has some very standout traits that make it worth bringing up. First of all, unlike its base form, Mega Tyranitar is a set-up attacker, being able to choose between Dragon Dance and Rock Polish. With a Jolly nature, Mega Tyranitar hits 397 Speed at +1, a clutch number to outspeed base 130s with. Its Attack stat rises to a pretty dangerous level as well, so you've got quite a dangerous sweeper on your hands once it's boosted, which isn't hard to do considering its 100/150/120 (SDef is boosted in Sand) defensive stats. If Speed's your thing, Rock Polish works quite well, with which Mega Tyranitar turns into a powerful cleaner, preferably for late-game use. Adamant Rock Polish is less 'balanced' between speed and offense, but has its own uses that set it apart from Dragon Dance, namely picking off weakened teams later on after just one boost. It can't hold anything aside from the Tyranitarite, but 164 Attack is and remains a lot. It's got fantastic coverage, too, and is able to just pick whichever tool that lets it strike the intended targets: Crunch for Psychics, Earthquake for troublesome Steels, Ice Punch for Gliscor and both Landorus, and Thunder Punch for Water-types that decide to crash the party.
Now, the problems are that Mega Tyranitar has 7 weaknesses and some of them are extremely common (think Fairy and Steel, mostly), limiting its switch-in and set-up opportunities; it faces competition as a Dragon Dancer from Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X; and it's highly vulnerable to status in general, making it reliant on cleric support. All in all, Mega Tyranitar is a support-reliant, yet highly effective Pokémon in the right hands.

So which rank do you think Mega Tyranitar belongs in? Again, the main point here is to raise discussion on this Pokémon, as I feel it's an interesting case.

Impartial on msharpedo for now and mega tyranitar is fine in b-. I can explain if necessary in case someone mentions a drop for whatever silly reason is proposed. My two cents for the time being.

Edit: also the shark isnt suppose to be switching into anything. It is just pointless to try and establish some defensive merit when its merits extend to like, soft checking bisharp implying you are healthy lol.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Impartial on msharpedo for now and mega tyranitar is fine in b-. I can explain if necessary in case someone mentions a drop for whatever silly reason is proposed. My two cents for the time being.

Edit: also the shark isnt suppose to be switching into anything. It is just pointless to try and establish some defensive merit when its merits extend to like, soft checking bisharp implying you are healthy lol.

Point taken. I've altered my post a bit, instead mentioning how it's just so easy to take Sharpedo down because of its meh defenses, though Mega suffers less from the issue. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[pika pal]

I have a comparison I'd like to make with Garchomp in terms of viability (not playstyle) in Mega Swampert, who is in B+.

Now, the first comparison that comes to mind for me is that both mons optimally will want to operate under a certain weather style (Sand and Rain, respectively). Swampert, however, is dependent on having Rain to put in the work expected of it, whereas for Garchomp, it's more like adding more bricks to the ton; Mega Garchomp can still wallbreak outside of sand to very good effect. What this entails is that Garchomp, while optimally played with them, doesn't require a Sand focused team the way Swampert needs to be on a Rain focused team.

The next thing that comes to mind is the role synergy for that weather. Swampert can more or less act as a second Kabutops for Rain, adding another fast hard-hitting Physical attacker in the vein of Gen 4 Double Dragon cores to overwhelm common checks. That said, while this compounds Rain's advantage against offense, it doesn't do too much to improve their match up with Stall, a playstyle meant to take these hits and wait out their weather. Garchomp, however, makes an excellent compliment to the common Sand members in T-Tar and Excadrill. Tyranitar can play support, removing a few specific problems like the Latis, while Garchomp serves the role of cracking walls wide open for Excadrill to sweep. Sand Rush Excadrill already gives a pretty good match-up vs Offense, while Garchomp brings something to improve against another playstyle by breaking defensive cores on Stall and Balance, improving what Sand can function well against compared to if he wasn't used.

And as old and insignificant as this may sound, I do consider the viability of Garchomp's base form an asset, since the most common set (Tankchomp) deals with a completely different set of mons (contact Physical attackers) compared to his Mega (Fat walls and speedy attackers that can't quickly KO him). Mega Garchomp's lower speed can work in your favor bluffing defensive sets, and help hide him if pair with mons like Scizor.

So to explain my point: Garchomp, who is not dependent on team support to perform sufficiently and expands Sand's Playstyle match up is in B-, while Swampert, who does need his rain and compounds the playstyles strengths and weaknesses is in B+. Both face their own competition for the Mega Slot in general (Rain also likes Scizor, Manectric, and I've heard Heracross as a wallbreaker), so I don't think that alone can explain that difference. I think Garchomp deserves to move up to B/B+.

As for the Kyurem-B comparison, the lack of a Mega Slot is a serious boon, but some things I think should be considered are the differences in longevity. Garchomp has more resistances than Kyu-B (Fire, Poison, and Rock all help) as well as a neutrality Kyu-B lacks in Fighting. These types make Mega Garchomp harder to Revenge or OHKO combined with his slightly greater raw bulk, not to mention his resistance to SR, which I think important since a Wallbreaker wants to be able to come in often to threaten out walls and apply offensive pressure. Garchomp's moves are also a bit more pressuring, since they not only have higher BP than Kyu-B (bar the latter running Outrage on some sets), but Garchomp is often using his special stat to apply pressure as a threat rather than having to depend on mixed attacking as Kyu-B does. I think of Garchomp as a Physical attacker with Special power to break more Physical resilient walls, while I think of Kyu-B as the opposite (a special wallbreaker with some Physical options). However, since Garchomp's primary offense tends to be his stronger one, I think he functions a bit better in terms of raw power.

All the above said, I support Mega Garchomp to rise, B/B+

Not sure if B- still falls under lower ranks, but I thought I'd just revive this nomination, if only to see what discussion there still is to be had about the true Mega Shark.


And maybe it's just me, but I'm skeptical about Noivern. Since it's offensive sets are obviously outclassed by Tornadus-T and Mega Pidgeot, what is Noivern's niche? The only thing that I can think of immediately is Switcheroo w/ Specs/Scarf, but that feels incredibly specific to me as a niche above Base Metagross, Sableye, or even Shaymin. If Noivern tricks away Specs, that's about the most it'll contribute in the long run because it's power otherwise is abyssmal despite its high BP moves, and while fast, that Speed doesn't afford it much if it lacks the power to beat bulkier threats or even some fast mons. It hates even neutral priority due to its lack of bulk, which can circumvent its speed such that it can't even pull off the trick of Passing a choice item to the opponent before going down.
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 199-235 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 205-243 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Noivern does indeed have a C- niche I'm not aware of, by all means inform me of it. From what I know, however, I think Noivern should drop to D. Speed + Switcheroo seems like too specific a set of assets to keep him with Zygarde or Kyurem, who, while they have very VERY specific roles, are not directly outclassed in playing that specific role for my judgement.

 

[AM]

Not sure if B- still falls under lower ranks, but I thought I'd just revive this nomination, if only to see what discussion there still is to be had about the true Mega Shark.


And maybe it's just me, but I'm skeptical about Noivern. Since it's offensive sets are obviously outclassed by Tornadus-T and Mega Pidgeot, what is Noivern's niche? The only thing that I can think of immediately is Switcheroo w/ Specs/Scarf, but that feels incredibly specific to me as a niche above Base Metagross, Sableye, or even Shaymin. If Noivern tricks away Specs, that's about the most it'll contribute in the long run because it's power otherwise is abyssmal despite its high BP moves, and while fast, that Speed doesn't afford it much if it lacks the power to beat bulkier threats or even some fast mons. It hates even neutral priority due to its lack of bulk, which can circumvent its speed such that it can't even pull off the trick of Passing a choice item to the opponent before going down.
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 199-235 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 205-243 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Noivern does indeed have a C- niche I'm not aware of, by all means inform me of it. From what I know, however, I think Noivern should drop to D. Speed + Switcheroo seems like too specific a set of assets to keep him with Zygarde or Kyurem, who, while they have very VERY specific roles, are not directly outclassed in playing that specific role for my judgement.

Life orb noivern is better. The freedom of switching moves is what makes it a threat in the first place. I mean you have the whole switcheroo aspect as well but a nice faster cleaner that falls under a speed tier surpassing th base 121s, so torn t and below, is a pretty significant portion of offense that you can threaten out. Flying and dragon stab while being able to utilze both effectively with coverage for steels lets you hinder plenty.

 

[thegrovylekid]

I haven't been here in a while, can someone please explain why Mega Altaria is S?

 

[bludz]

Mega Altaria is S for the following reasons:

- Unique and amazing defensive typing that allows it to wall / check a multitude of threats including BOTH Charizard forms, pretty much every Dragon type and numerous other pokemon like Keldeo
- Good offensive power thanks to Pixilate and good coverage with Earthquake / Fire Blast covering almost everything Hyper Voice / Return doesn't hit
- Ability to play multiple roles: it can be a physical sweeper, special support set, mixed attacker or even run lure moves and defensive dragon dance sets

Overall it's just a great glue for teams and can fit on literally any playstyle from hyper offense to stall. It's also quite hard to counter just because you can't know what it's running beforehand and it has so many options.

 

[Dilwar]

I haven't been here in a while, can someone please explain why Mega Altaria is S?

It can run a ton of sets:

- Special Attacking
- Dragon Dance Sweeper
- Cotton Guard (with or without DD), this is a pretty good win-con. Remove special attackers and it's game and even then special attackers don't matter too much since Cotton Guard runs Sp.Def investment
- Has Heal Bell to bypass status unlike other DDers like ZardX, Gyara etc
- Great typing allows it to switch into a lot of metagame threats like Keldeo, Latios, Zard X etc
- Good bulk

Basically between all the sets it can run and just being really solid in general with its typing, bulk and movepool, it is incredibly hard to check properly and puts a pretty big strain on teambuilding. I think the only real counter is Mega Venusaur.

 

[Anduril]

On the M-Ttar discussion it should be noted that many teams are inherently weak to Stone + Dark + Ice coverage, so if you get a DD up M-Ttar can put in work. Don't have an opinion on it rn but M-Ttar has a great matchup with most of the teams being made rn.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Okay, thanks. The last time I was on here, the majority of people were opposed to Mega Altaria being S.

 

[firehusky]

On the topic of mega tyranitar:

Thanks to its astronomical bulk it sets up on a shit ton of things and the only relevant priority move in OU that can even revenge kill it is LO breloom's mach punch; non LO doesn't even OHKO it lol. Setting up DDs isn't even that hard thanks to its impressive bulk and after a few DDs it can basically just clean up teams really easily. Lots of people just forget about this thing in the teambuilder just because it's so uncommon but having used it a bit in the past and having faced some, it's definitely not something most people are prepared for and can easily threaten teams with a DD under its belt. Even rock polish sets are pretty scary as it can outspeed scarfers such as Landorus-T and mega lopunny which could otherwise revenge it, while also being able to run an adamant nature which bumps his attack all the way up to an impressive 469. Definitely a scary poke to face and it shouldn't drop at all, not too sure about a rise though.

 

[SketchUp]

I don't think the problem with Mega Tyranitar is its typing, especially when you add amazing bulk but the fact that Mega Tyranitar is not easy to fit on teams. Mega Tyranitar gives your team way less support than you may think (while also needing a lot of support itself), especially when you compare it to regular Tyranitar who can revengekill, pursuit trap and give better sand support better than Mega Tyranitar. The main reason to use Mega Tyranitar is to use it as a DD sweeper but it has very huge competition from Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard-X. Mega Tyranitar definitely has some advantages over the other DD users: not revenge killed by Talonflame (which is not even that big of a deal when you consider that Breloom / Scizor can still revengekill you after some prior damage) being able to set up on pokemon who can not hit it super effectively (7 weaknesses is a lot, but there are still many common pokemon such as Latios and Raikou Tyranitar can set up on) but even after a set up you are weaker than both Zard-X and Altaria and you have to deal with a shaky stab move and 4mss (Fire Punch for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, Ice Punch for bulky grounds and even then you still lose against Breloom, Chesnaught, Keldeo, Toxicroak, Pangoro etc.) while also being way less threatening before you have set up than the other Dragon Dancers are. B would be a good rank for it if Hippowdon, Scizor, Slowbro and Keldeo were not everywhere but for now I would keep it B-

 

[SilverForUbers]

Why is Cresselia only B rank? IMO Cress should go to at least B+. Checking the entirety of S rank(Except for Clefable depending on the set) isn't an easy feat. The only thing that I can see holding Cresselia back is her recovery and possibly the fact that psychic typing isn't very good right now. She can spread a lot of status to take out threats your team has trouble with. Ie Toxic for MegaBro and T-Wave for MegaTaria + MegaGross.

 

[Valmanway]

Why is Cresselia only B rank? IMO Cress should go to at least B+. Checking the entirety of S rank(Except for Clefable depending on the set) isn't an easy feat. The only thing that I can see holding Cresselia back is her recovery and possibly the fact that psychic typing isn't very good right now. She can spread a lot of status to take out threats your team has trouble with. Ie Toxic for MegaBro and T-Wave for MegaTaria + MegaGross.

Being very passive without Calm Mind, being completely walled by Steel-types as well as Dark-types without Moonblast, and having a recovery move with little PP and can be negatively effected by rain and sand are also big reasons for her low placement, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Eraxxer]

Cress is generally a weak offensive presence and gets set up on by a lot of things. It relies on Thunder Wave and Toxic but Substitute attackers will beat it, Heal Bell Altaria sets up on it, awful recovery means it can't actually beat sand or rain teams (weather reduces moonlight to 25%), it's pretty weak to status itself, and taunt mostly just beats it.

 

[BlackBloodz]

Gastrodon to B+/B

Gastrodon hasn't been getting much love since XY first came out duo to the fact that Rain is no longer permanent. Lately, Squirrel. and I been using Gastrodon quite heavily around the ladder and few non-official tournaments held in the OU room. It turned out to be a Pokemon with a quite big niche in the current meta which will be explained below:

To begin with, Gastrodon can probably take down a Rain team by itself thanks to its ability Storm Drain which makes it one of the most reliable Water Moves switch ins mainly Scald Spam which is quite common in the current meta with Keldeo , Slowbro and Starmie being common. Moreover, it has a reliable recover form being the move Recover and such an amazing bulk allows it to take hits quite good and recover off the damage if needed or Toxic/Scald something:

Few Calcs:

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252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 190-225 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 200-238 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 136-161 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 157-186 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 202-238 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (I'll mention later why I put this calc in here)

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now getting into it's best niche in the current meta, the great typing it has with only one weakness which allows it to completely wall and check a lot in this meta and stop most of Volt-Turn cores. (Thundurus, Raikou, Mega Manectric, Zapdos, Magnezone, Starmie, Rotom-W, Can 1v1 Charizard X, Keldeo, Heatran, Talonflame, Lanodurs-T and a lot more)

So basically, this Pokemon beats at least 2 Pokemon most of the time at opposing teams looking at Team Preview, and it can literally wall quite a number in a team that lacks heavy hitters/status/grass moves.

The best set in my opinion through out using it was this one (a specially defensive variant is effective as well)

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold/Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Counter/Earthquake/Clear Smog

An alternative spread can be used to switch in safely against Mega Diancie:
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Bold/Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Counter/Earthquake/Clear Smog


Counter is such a solid move on this Pokemon to consider, it allows you to beat/1v1 stuff that won't expect you to have it if you really wanted to (Lopunny, Conkeldurr, Excadrill) and anything that wants to U-Turn on it makes you punish something with quite some damage.


On the other hand, this Pokemon struggles quite a lot with Grass types especially the offensive ones and it might become a complete set up fodder for Serperior for example.
So, having the write team mates such as Spdef Talonflame and AV Tornadus-T to absorb and beat most Grass Type Pokemon can put up a small core which puts in a lot of work.


All in all, this Pokemon needs a bit more love and it definitely worth it.

Replays:

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Probably not so great, I'll try to edit it with some good ones.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226479301
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226906317
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230741729