Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Realistic Waters]

I'm pretty much in support of every nomination made on here,
but just wanted to nit pick at some of the stuff in the lower end of the rankings.. :v

Armaldo D rank ----> Unranked
Move over, Kabutops is back and there is literally no reason to use this thing now. Horribly outclassed as a spinner and anything else that it tries to do, bad typing isn't giving it any favours either not to mention it's so slow. It had a small niche before but again that's gone and it just won't do anything for you..
Ban AV Armaldo

Mightyena D Rank ----> Unranked
Lmao why would anyone ever want to use this thing? Terrible mon, not exactly strong or bulky, lack of Pursuit, knock off really hurt, pretty much gives your opponent a free switch in because it fails to anything good. Moxie, unique coverage options and sucker punch are nice I guess, but it's never gonna be able to kill something lol opponents not gonna allow that

 

[thegrovylekid]

Now that Mega Camerupt and Typhlosion are suspected, what do you guys think about Lilligant for S? In my opinion, Lilligant is one of the best sweepers in the game, with Own Tempo and Petal Dance allowing for easy sweeps with Quiver dance.

 

[Hootie]

Archeops S Rank ---> A+ Don't kill me please

Usually I don't go into controversial drops/rises but this is definitely one I feel should happen, Archeops is not as good as it use to be, it isn't as easy to put into any team as it was before. Archeops has great speed, great attack and a great movepool, it has a variety of sets it can run, for example; Stealth rock + endeavor, taunt + defog, or a power house with 4 attacks. It also has a decent special set it can run with 112 Sp.Atk, it has stats it can boast about like 140 attack making it the strongest attacker in NU, and 110 speed making it the second fastest mon in NU. Surely all these great qualities should make Archeops S rank right?

I strongly disagree with this, because in all honestly, Archeops got better since the tier shift if anything because it checks most of the drops very very well and I'll go through each of your points explaining why.

1) Defeatist, Defeatist is one of the worst abilities in the game only comparing with the likes of slow start and truant, it halves archeops attack when it's hp is below 51% This makes archeops easy set up fodder when in range of defeatist, so to the player using archeops, they either have to run roost or run 4 attacks and hope you don't get put into range.

What has even changed this fact? This has always been a fatal flaw of Archeops and no metagame changes are going to change how this ability affect Archeops. It still has Roost to mitigate this as you mention later which while it does ruin momentum, it is easy to safely Roost when Archeops forces switches like no other.

2) It's weak to rocks, archeop's weakness to rocks limits it's amount of times it can switch, it also stops archeops using u-turn as effectively as it would like to. While other mons weak to rocks can usually switch in 4 times, archeops can only switch in 3 times due to defeatist, this forces you to run a defogger or roost which limits it's overall usefulness.

Again same as the last point, nothing in the meta has changed to make this more of problem than it usually is. A certain banned Pokemon in Typhlosion was also weak to Rocks, as well as vulnerable to all other entry hazards and had its strongest STAB weakened if it took SR damage, so it needed hazard removal support as well, albeit not as much as Archeops granted. If anything keeping SR off the field is less of problem when the tier's premier SR user, Seismitoad, had left. Again this always was flaw of Archeops, and hazard control has actually gotten better because we now have Kabutops that provides Spin support as well. Also why the heck are you using U-turn on Archeops???

3) Choice scarf users, in NU currently there are a lot of great choice scarf users, things like lilligant, magneton, rotom, haunter and mesprit, all of these common mons can easily put archeops into defeatist or in worse case scenarios killing it. But surely you can just switch out on these scarfers right? Well going back to my second point, it's rock weakness and defeatist greatly limit it's amount of switches it can go before becoming near useless, or set up fodder (considering no roost/taunt), Archeops is a mon that greatly relies on it's speed to do well, with all these scarfers knocking it into defeatist easily, it's not as good as doing it job as it was before with a wild scarf magneton on 10+% of teams.

Scarfers have always been an issue and always will be for fast and frail Pokemon so why exactly is this an argument for moving it down? The only new scarfer that entered the meta is Magneton which cannot switch in anyways and also the fact that Scarf is not as common as the Specs analytic sets (which arch destroys so if anything, Archeops has much more use with Magnets being in).

4) Priority users, as I previously said, archeops greatly relies on it's speed and power to knock out enemy mons, currently there are many mons that can easily put archeops into defeatist range, things like samurott, kabutops, hariyama etc. This drastically increases the difficulty archeops has to stay out of defeatist. So once again, it's ability betrays it, forcing it to struggle against certain mons, and one mon shines above all of the them...

I'm seeing pattern here because once again, very little regarding this issue in the meta has changed to make this flaw more apparent. Archeops does have Kabutops to worry about now, but at the same time it checks Fletchinder very well, which is incredibly valuable for Offense in general.

5) Sneasel, sneasel is one of the few mons that can accomplish the feat of outspeeding and ohko'ing archeops the other being zebstrika, if 2 or 3 months ago I was saying archeops should go to A+ because of sneasel, everyone would of laughed, but now as sneasel is definitely one of the best mons in the tier, it should be it's own separate reason, As I have said many a time, archeops relies on speed and power to burst through teams, now that an amazing relevant mon can outspeed and ohko it, archeops struggles a lot of the time against teams that include sneasel, please note I am not saying sneasel should swich in on it lol.

This is the one I'll give you because Sneasel has been gaining a lot of popularity as of late and is one of the best answers to this thing, but again is this really a point to make for bringing it down?

6) Checks and Counters, there are a lot more things that stop archeops more than before, while seismitoad left, yes, it still has many things that wall it, those being things like Audino, Ferroseed, Weezing, Regirock and Rhydon (unless the very rare aqua tail).

I legitimately do not get what you are trying to say here. First of all, the sentiment that you are using a Pokemon's checks and counters for reasoning as why to we should drop it is just ridiculous. Every Pokemon no matter what rank they are in have some sort of checks and counters. Second, you really downplay how major it is to Archeops that Seismitoad left. It was one of the premier answers to it and it easily setup SR on it no problem. Lastly, none of the checks and counters you listed are any more common than they were before. Also Ferroseed is really shaky at best because while it is not common, Archeops can very well run Heat Wave to eliminate Ferroseed which will pave the way for a teammate, such as SD Samurott, to just clean up. Also Aqua Tail is still a very legitimate option on Archeops just because of Rhydon, and on a 4 Attacks set, it easily has room to run it. Also I wouldn't say Audino is the most reliable answer when Archeops can just Taunt it and switch to another teammate while Audino is sitting there helpless. Although it is rarly seen, Iron Tail makes Archeops a decent lure to Audino as well, so it's definitely not 100% safe.

Archeops is such a versatile offensive Pokemon that can massacre any team if you do not pack an answer. It's always a Pokemon that I fear to see in team preview just by the fact that it has an immediate offensive presence and pressures many offensive teams. It can be tailored to take out specific targets for your team's needs and that is absolutely amazing when you pair it up with a sweeper. Your points overall are very vague, and, other than maybe the Sneasel point, can apply to almost every Pokemon. (I really don't get the checks and counters point still :s)

 

[Ares]

Update time :D

Magneton Unranked --> S
Sneasel A+ --> S
Tauros A+ --> S
Malamar A+ --> A
Garbodor A --> A+
Jynx A --> A+
Kabutops Unranked --> A
Fletchinder Unranked --> A
Hariyama A --> A-
Gurdurr A- --> A
Magmortar A - --> A
Pyroar A- --> A
Rotom A- --> A
Crustle B+ --> B
Lanturn B+ --> A-
Pawniard B+ --> B
Barbaracle B --> B+
Pinsir Unranked --> B+
Torterra B --> B+
Elevtivire B- --> B+
Stunfisk C+ --> B
Sawsbuck C --> C+
Mr. Mime C --> C+
Ursaring C --> B-
Servine Unranked --> C
Rapidash D --> C-
Armaldo D --> Unranked
Mightyena D --> Unranked

If I missed anything let me know, also if I didn't move your nom feel free to renom and quote yourself. These new meta drops always leave the rankings a bit skewed with a bunch of stuff needing to move around.

These new magnets are really pulling the meta around kind of like this iron (hue)

 

[Kiyo]

yo nomming this: Mesprit S ----> A / A+

I get why Mesprit is S because it can run literally any set, but if most of those sets are mediocre at best is the mon really deserving of S rank? Idk maybe its just me, but Mesprit is extremely underwhelming whenever I use or face it, its simply not on the same power level of anything else in S rank.

 

[Punchshroom]

Meh, still not sold on such a jump for Ursaring; if anything there is even less reason to use Guts Ursaring since Toad leaving means one less Seed Bomb target (OHKOing Toad is one of the extremely few advantages Ursa has over Goose to begin with). All four of the drops happen to sit between Ursaring's and Zangoose's speed tier which only further highlights their notable difference in speed. Still feel like C+ is a better position for Ursa especially after the tier changes: Guts is even worse now and Quick Feet only carries it so far.

Feels funny seeing Jynx rise especially with Sneasel's rise to power, but hey, a deadly offensive presence with Water immunity in this meta is probably even better than I would've imagined.

I still feel like Mesprit can still hold up its S Ranking. It's extremely versatile and customisable, and I don't really see the mediocrity in the variety of sets it can run.
- While Psychic-type's neutral coverage is far from being the best, Mesprit has both the offensive movepool and (mixed) offensive stats to back itself up
- Mesprit is one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the tier due to its access to many coverage moves (Thunderbolt is incredibly useful to nail Xatu, Defoggers, Kabutops), and is one of the scarce offensive SR setters that isn't designed to suicide early game.
- Choice sets can afford to switch in and out of battle due to their relative hazard resilience (immune to grounded hazards, neutrality to SR), and have access to great Choiced moves such as U-turn and Trick
- Very respectable bulk for an offensive Pokemon, meaning Mesprit can reliably dish out a strong hit or two even in unfavorable team matchups
- While its support movepool is not as great as Uxie's, access to the rare Healing Wish is always worth a look

Now for my own nom:

Carracosta to A Rank

Briefing: Defensive Costa is pretty damn bulky, and possesses solid utility options in Scald and Aqua Jet that give it a bit more offensive presence, more so than Regirock anyway; Scald being special also means it can still put in mild work even if it gets burned by Fletchinder. Solid Rock allows Costa to take physical coverage moves pretty well, and it isn't reliant on Eviolite like Rhydon is (which allows it to respond to the likes of Sneasel). And then there is the Shell Smash set which not only has excellent resistances to Fake Out and Gale Wings Acrobatics, but can evade Sucker Punch and smack faster Pokemon with boosted Aqua Jet, which is also really nice.

A quick glance shows it is capable of checking 3 of the S Rank threats (3 and a half if counting physical Mesprit @3@). That alone looks promising for Costa, but the departure of Seismitoad makes its future even brighter. Now defensive sets can afford to carry all STAB moves with little concern and not be forced to carry Toxic just to give its super common switch-in something to worry about. Shell Smash sets can also take advantage of the S Rank threats it checks, and while it still has Quagsire to worry about, having Toad out of the way gives it more breathing room regardless. I don't see any reason why Costa shouldn't be on par with something like Rhydon right now.

 

[Teddeh]

I'm gonna disagree with the mesprit nomination for it to be dropped.

As for the last 4-5 months, I have been an active user of this pokemon and each time I have used it, it's literally been an mvp partner for setup sweepers, revenge killer, momentum grabber, even extremely threatening with the power it can produce over uxie as an offensive calm mind user with coverage that is always unpredictable when deciding what you want to use to switch in. I'd say that each set depends on match up and team mate support of course, but it's never really let me down when producing results. It's an extremely versatile mon that can always leave you wondering what is your best switch in since it has coverage for almost everything.

For setup sweepers in this metagame, it's extremely useful to have several mini-sweeps during a game to wear down their checks and counters to your; for example samurott or gurdurr. Mesprit allows you to play your sweeper more recklessly as the chances are you can healing wish to it late game and can maintain and extreme amount of pressure.
Mesprit is an extremely effective lure for most teams if you need to get rid of a certain check, you can run an obscure move on mesprit to lure them. Examples could be colbur berry + signal beam for sneasel, hp fire / ground for steel types, energy ball for quagsires and in general I'd consider mesprit to be the most dangerous mon in the tier with how many options it has.

The only thing that has hindered mesprit's performance is the rise of pokemon like sneasel with pursuit. In this case it does stop you from using your psychic stab, however most of the time, they are choice locked into moves as the most common set is band, which would mean you come in and u-turn (using the scarfed set as an example) and even revenge kill this threat.

I'm not going to go into too much more detail since I'm biased towards certain styles and team structures and mesprit has been around long enough for everyone to know what it does, however I feel that mesprit has always been effective for me and I feel it fully deserves the S rank.

 

[Orphic]

This is controversial I know so feel free to argue with me and I'll try and convince you why I believe this:

Scyther from A+ --> A

I can tell I'll need to explain myself quite a bit so here goes. Of the 5 S rank mons we now have, Magneton, Tauros, Sneasel, Mesprit and Archeops, how many does Scyther beat? 1 at a push, and that's Mesprit, but simple team synergy sorts that. Plus, if you're the common scarf Mesprit, that number becomes 0! Tauros and Sneasel both outspeed Scyther and OHKO with Rock Slide and Icicle Crash respectively. Scyther doesn't dent Magneton and is OHKO'd back, same with Archeops. Now lets look at the A rank mons, the one's that Scyther is supposedly in a league above. Fletchinder, Pyroar, Rotom, scarf Sawk, all destroy Scyther, not to mention Rotom itself is in the wrong ranking!

Now I'm aware that that's not entirely what rankings are based on so I'll add in why it doesn't do it's role as well in the new meta. Previously, Scythers power with band and Swords Dance sets were enough to overcome its frustrating Stealth Rock weakness, however now, I feel that teams are so offensive that Scyther doesn't get a look in most games. Garbodor, Stunfisk, Magneton, Fletchinder etc are all so common. Every team, in looking to combat Magneton and Fletch, in turn brings a ton of Scyther checks. Now that the meta has evolved to the point that common mons are all either faster than Scyther or bulky enough to not be phazed by it, I don't feel like it does either job it used to excel at as well as it used to. Trust me it hurts to be that guy. Feel free to argue but in practice, this does appear to be the case, and I may edit this post to argue why Rotom should be A+ later on.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Carracosta to A Rank

Briefing: Defensive Costa is pretty damn bulky, and possesses solid utility options in Scald and Aqua Jet that give it a bit more offensive presence, more so than Regirock anyway; Scald being special also means it can still put in mild work even if it gets burned by Fletchinder. Solid Rock allows Costa to take physical coverage moves pretty well, and it isn't reliant on Eviolite like Rhydon is (which allows it to respond to the likes of Sneasel). And then there is the Shell Smash set which not only has excellent resistances to Fake Out and Gale Wings Acrobatics, but can evade Sucker Punch and smack faster Pokemon with boosted Aqua Jet, which is also really nice.

A quick glance shows it is capable of checking 3 of the S Rank threats (3 and a half if counting physical Mesprit @3@). That alone looks promising for Costa, but the departure of Seismitoad makes its future even brighter. Now defensive sets can afford to carry all STAB moves with little concern and not be forced to carry Toxic just to give its super common switch-in something to worry about. Shell Smash sets can also take advantage of the S Rank threats it checks, and while it still has Quagsire to worry about, having Toad out of the way gives it more breathing room regardless. I don't see any reason why Costa shouldn't be on par with something like Rhydon right now.

I think Carracosta is fine in A-... It handles physical attackers really well and sets up Stealth Rock. But in practice that's usually where it stops. Scald is cool, Aqua Jet is cool but nothing amazing. In reality it's only going to pick off severely weakened Magmortar/Pyroar/Archeops. It's nice to have but once again its usefulness is just limited. Carracosta also faces a lot of competition as a SR user and is thus limited to teams that are particularly weak to the threats you mentioned. Otherwise you just use Uxie or Archeops or something because they're flatout better mons all around.

So you have those cool perks, but then you also have to deal with plenty of flaws. Carracosta is weak to Electric, Ground, Fighting and Grass. His weaknesses are so common that Weakness Policy became a standard set, and that says something. Seismitoad was so ubiquitous because you only had to cover for one weakness. Carracosta users have a lot more weaknesses to cover for which makes it much more difficult to fit on a team. Yeah Toad is gone now but that doesn't mean Carracosta is now the next best thing for sure considering these flaws.

Then there's its awful special defense. It's just bad, and special attackers are by no means uncommon. People use Rhydon because it can tank hits from both sides of the spectrum and isn't weak to Electric. So there you have why Carracosta is below Rhydon.

And yeah I know Carracosta can use Shell Smash but let's be honest here; Barbaracle, Huntail and even Gorebyss do it better. I've used it plenty, I even used special SS Costa back when Tangela was on every other NU team but no matter how you turn it you're just using an outclassed sweeper. Which is a bad idea even when you're trying to lure certain mons or going for the surprise factor.

 

[Evan.]

yeah scyther should prolly drop, the drops were about as harmful as they come to a mons viability, and this is coming from the guy who nommed it to A+. Anyways got some of my own noms to make.

: B- => B
Piloswine is a really cool rocks setter rn. It acts as a nice check to Sneasel, Tauros, and Archeops with its natural physical bulk, sets rocks very reliably, has great utility in priority Ice Shard which allows it to revenge stuff like 50% lilligant, as well as a really cool ability in thick fat which allows it to be one of the few reliable ice resists right now. Really cool mon that deserves higher than B-

B+ => B-/C+
Can we please move gorebyss out of the same rank as Huntail? Huntail is easily the superior SmashPasser as it has access to Sucker Punch which Gorebyss lacks. Its really that simple and i dont think i need to elaborate more. B-/C+ seems like a good place because it still runs offensive smash sets and such, its just outclassed.

B- => C+
With the drop of Kabutops, we have another spinner that we can use instead of Sandslash. Mono-Ground typing is mediocre at best and it really isnt all that bulky. Claydol is usually a better option anyways due to Levitate which allows it to avoid T-Spikes before spinning. Its an OK mon that is pretty outclassed by another mon of a higher rank so C+ seems like the perfect fit.

Also agreeing with the mesprit nom from earlier. Jack of all trades, master of none as I heard Disjunction say last night. It has pretty severe 4MSS in this meta since it wants to run STAB, T-Bolt, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, HP Fire, Healing Wish, Rocks and U-Turn all at the same time. It really has a tough time breaking through common defensive cores the same way it did when it was initially brought up to S in XY. Scarf sets are mediocre at best because its middling speed tier dont let it outspeed speed boosting threats like Barbaracle or Lilligant. Physical sets are also very mediocre because they lack the coverage to really be a threat to most teams. Pretty much all of the CM sets are done better by Uxie as well. Still a great mon but not worthy of the S ranking. A+ is a good fit.

 

[Punchshroom]

I think Carracosta is fine in A-... It handles physical attackers really well and sets up Stealth Rock. But in practice that's usually where it stops. Scald is cool, Aqua Jet is cool but nothing amazing. In reality it's only going to pick off severely weakened Magmortar/Pyroar/Archeops. It's nice to have but once again its usefulness is just limited. Carracosta also faces a lot of competition as a SR user and is thus limited to teams that are particularly weak to the threats you mentioned. Otherwise you just use Uxie or Archeops or something because they're flatout better mons all around.

You're really downplaying the usefulness of Scald and Aqua Jet, especially when their qualities are unique to Costa for a bulky SR setter, which thrives on the utility they have; I don't see how spreading burns and packing priority to pick off weakened threats isn't appealing. I don't know how you've been using your Carracosta but it has consistently put in work against a large majority of physical attackers due to its bulkiness and various ways it has of retaliating, via Scald burns, poking with Aqua Jet, or simply just toss out a Rock attack (your strongest attack). Uxie and Archeops most certainly do not compete with Costa as an SR setter because they are just completely different in their roles (Uxie is more for pure support while Archeops takes the early-lead advantage), Costa's main competition would be Rhydon and Regirock. While Costa has less sheer offensive presence than Rhydon, Carracosta has enough perks, most notably Solid Rock + Leftovers, to put it on par with Rhydon, at least in this meta. Regirock has also improved in this meta but it being such massive Ground fodder (or greater fodder in general) is kind of off-putting.

252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 135-161 (32.6 - 38.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 109-131 (31 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Carracosta: 118-139 (33.6 - 39.6%)

252 Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 106-126 (30.1 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 112-132 (27 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 90-106 (25.6 - 30.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 226-266 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 91-108 (21.9 - 26%)
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- [guaranteed 2HKO after Knock Off]
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 181-214 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [at least Costa doesn't get KOed after a Knock Off, and can still hit -1 Goose with Aqua Jet in a pinch]

As you can see, Carracosta handles the top physical threats in the tier better than Rhydon would.

So you have those cool perks, but then you also have to deal with plenty of flaws. Carracosta is weak to Electric, Ground, Fighting and Grass. His weaknesses are so common that Weakness Policy became a standard set, and that says something. Seismitoad was so ubiquitous because you only had to cover for one weakness. Carracosta users have a lot more weaknesses to cover for which makes it much more difficult to fit on a team. Yeah Toad is gone now but that doesn't mean Carracosta is now the next best thing for sure considering these flaws.

First off Weakness Policy is not very standard, as Life Orb or White Herb are preferred. Secondly, having several weaknesses won't be that much of a bother if they are easy to cover (a Grass-type alone handles like three of those weaknesses), and that didn't stop Rhydon, which has even more weaknesses, from getting A Rank. In fact, Costa is blessed in that it rarely risks exposing itself to its weaknesses (unSTAB Earthquakes are easily soaked up for the most part), making it harder to lure, while Rhydon's Water weakness is enough for people to take note of and prepare such lures as Aqua Tail Archeops and Kangaskhan, which can greatly hamper Rhydon's ability to check them, much less anything else afterward; Costa does not face nearly as much risk since Grass coverage is not easy for physical attackers to come by.

Then there's its awful special defense. It's just bad, and special attackers are by no means uncommon. People use Rhydon because it can tank hits from both sides of the spectrum and isn't weak to Electric. So there you have why Carracosta is below Rhydon.

People mainly use Rhydon because it packs the most offensive presence out of all the bulky SR setters. Also Rhydon's enhanced special bulk from Eviolite is mainly for Fire-types; if you glance at the mons in the higher rankings, there really aren't much of any special attackers that beat Costa but lose to Rhydon, because Rhydon stands a good chance to lose to them anyway. So you can't really say that Costa deserves a sub-rank below just because its Special Defense is lower, because for the most part Rhydon's Special Defense doesn't help it that much more against most special attackers.

Also:
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 292-347 (83.1 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And yeah I know Carracosta can use Shell Smash but let's be honest here; Barbaracle, Huntail and even Gorebyss do it better. I've used it plenty, I even used special SS Costa back when Tangela was on every other NU team but no matter how you turn it you're just using an outclassed sweeper. Which is a bad idea even when you're trying to lure certain mons or going for the surprise factor.

Carracosta imo is probably the most consistently useful Shell Smash sweeper in the tier, and that is mainly because it is capable of contributing early-game or even contribute at all if it doesn't manage to Smash, unlike the other Smashers, due to its high physical tankiness and access to priority which lets it go toe-to-toe against threats even without its boost, instead of sitting its ass back until mid/late game before finally showing its face if it doesn't want to just flop over and die (looking at you, Barbara >.>). Not only that, but Aqua Jet also helps Carracosta greatly in the midst of its Shell Smash sweep, and is the biggest reason it can afford Adamant to further fuel its power, while letting it hit Scarfers and faster mons (most of which are too frail to eat a +2 LO Aqua Jet) and evade priority moves, most notably Sucker Punch. I didn't (and won't) touch upon the specially mixed Smash set because I don't have experience with it and it seems like a cute lure at best (if you're going to settle with that much inaccurate moves on Costa and give up Aqua Jet on it, you might just be better off with a Barbaracle). I really don't see how you can call Shell Smash Costa outclassed.

 

[Adaire]

Venipede Unranked --> D I can't believe I'm doing this
​

Anyone who has played fsong's team should know what this does, it gets up 1-2 layers of spikes/t-spikes then endeavors while at +1 or +2 speed thanks to speed boost, it reminds me a lot of the old archeops set with endeavor and rocks. Of course it's not amazing but it does differ from other toxic spike setters by getting of a lot of damage instead of being bulky like roselia and garbodor. Also if your asking, venipede is a better suicide lead than it's evolution whirlipede as it faster, and the added bulk would screw you over by not getting maximum endeavor damage. So yeah, venipede is a nifty suicide lead that gets both toxic spikes and regular spikes which is great for offensive teams or hazard stack. Yes it's offensive pressence is non existent but like I said, fast endeavor and reliable hazards are a niche worth D rank imo.

 

[Adaire]

why dont you just use whirlipede. what does venipede do better

Also if your asking, venipede is a better suicide lead than it's evolution whirlipede as it faster, and the added bulk would screw you over by not getting maximum endeavor damage.​

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well it's just when you weigh the pro's and cons of using Carracosta I don't see it being A rank material. It's a great mon to deal with physical threats like Tauros, Klinklang, Sneasel and what not, arguably one of the best in the tier (then again mons that reliably wall all three of those and more are quite rare in NU). But it has too many flaws to cope with for an A rank mon. A- is stretching it already but since it is good at its role of walling highly relevant threats I can see it staying. I won't go on about the Shell Smash set, just keep in mind SmashPass is a thing and Carracosta can't do it.

 

[Orphic]

Venipede Unranked --> D I can't believe I'm doing this
​

Anyone who has played fsong's team should know what this does, it gets up 1-2 layers of spikes/t-spikes then endeavors while at +1 or +2 speed thanks to speed boost, it reminds me a lot of the old archeops set with endeavor and rocks. Of course it's not amazing but it does differ from other toxic spike setters by getting of a lot of damage instead of being bulky like roselia and garbodor. Also if your asking, venipede is a better suicide lead than it's evolution whirlipede as it faster, and the added bulk would screw you over by not getting maximum endeavor damage. So yeah, venipede is a nifty suicide lead that gets both toxic spikes and regular spikes which is great for offensive teams or hazard stack. Yes it's offensive pressence is non existent but like I said, fast endeavor and reliable hazards are a niche worth D rank imo.

There is literally zero reason to use this. NU is riddled with hazard control, notably Claydol, Xatu and Kabutops. Not to mention Garbodor does the hazard setting job better and more reliably, same with like every spikes setter in the tier.

 

[Teddeh]

There is literally zero reason to use this. NU is riddled with hazard control, notably Claydol, Xatu and Kabutops. Not to mention Garbodor does the hazard setting job better and more reliably, same with like every spikes setter in the tier.

I think theory monning venipede isn't the best approach to this nomination. I too was skeptical at first, but I think the best way to decide whether it deserves a rank or not would be to use it and then decide, then apply your critique. :]

 

[Funbot28]

A ----> A+

Feel this is a good suggestion after the significance of HO I have been seeing lately. This thing can be used as a great revenge killer for many sweepers running rampant in the tier, such as Tauros and Sneasel. The many steel types including the omnipresent Magneton and Archeops do hinder its viability, however I find it pairs well with fighting types such as Sawk and Gurdurr well to cover its weaknesses. SR is also a major thorn in its side, but it can easily be paired with hazard removers such as Xatu and Kabutops, just like its older brother Talnoflame in OU (to an extent). Once all of those weaknesses are out of its way, this thing is prepared to sweep teams, and it can also use WOW to cripple its physical opponents on the switch in

Some calcs:

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 141-166 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 217-256 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 259-306 (86 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 165-195 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 121-144 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 300-354 (110.2 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 324-382 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Idk just a suggestion that I personally feel just.

Don't forget, the bird is the word

 

[Winter's Howl]

This is controversial I know so feel free to argue with me and I'll try and convince you why I believe this:

Scyther from A+ --> A

I can tell I'll need to explain myself quite a bit so here goes. Of the 5 S rank mons we now have, Magneton, Tauros, Sneasel, Mesprit and Archeops, how many does Scyther beat? 1 at a push, and that's Mesprit, but simple team synergy sorts that. Plus, if you're the common scarf Mesprit, that number becomes 0! Tauros and Sneasel both outspeed Scyther and OHKO with Rock Slide and Icicle Crash respectively. Scyther doesn't dent Magneton and is OHKO'd back, same with Archeops. Now lets look at the A rank mons, the one's that Scyther is supposedly in a league above. Fletchinder, Pyroar, Rotom, scarf Sawk, all destroy Scyther, not to mention Rotom itself is in the wrong ranking!

Now I'm aware that that's not entirely what rankings are based on so I'll add in why it doesn't do it's role as well in the new meta. Previously, Scythers power with band and Swords Dance sets were enough to overcome its frustrating Stealth Rock weakness, however now, I feel that teams are so offensive that Scyther doesn't get a look in most games. Garbodor, Stunfisk, Magneton, Fletchinder etc are all so common. Every team, in looking to combat Magneton and Fletch, in turn brings a ton of Scyther checks. Now that the meta has evolved to the point that common mons are all either faster than Scyther or bulky enough to not be phazed by it, I don't feel like it does either job it used to excel at as well as it used to. Trust me it hurts to be that guy. Feel free to argue but in practice, this does appear to be the case, and I may edit this post to argue why Rotom should be A+ later on.

I think this is a well timed nomination. Orphic makes a number of sound points here, which has convinced me to share my experiences with the matter. The new drops have not been friendly to Scyther. With Magneton and Fletchinder on every other team, Scyther has a hard time finding access to its longevity increasing move, Roost. Previously, Scyther found ample enough opportunity to use Roost and recover some of its health. But the new threats in the tier now have Scyther hesitant to click it, lest it be forced out again. The other option is for Scyther to constantly be on the offensive against incoming Magnetons (which it can't do much against) and Fletchinders (which Scyther only OHKOs after rocks, but even then it is forced out or killed, allowing Fletch to Roost itself or kill Scyther). This immense pressure has, in my experience, kept Scyther from accomplishing much over the course of an average match. I do not feel that it accomplishes the criteria set for A+ mons, therefore I am backing Orphic on his denomination for Scyther. GG.

Some Calcs:

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Scyther: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 324-384 (115.3 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 320-378 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[ryan]

Archeops is retarded in this metagame. Sneasel being all over is pretty irrelevant to Archeops's viability because it doesn't stop it from getting a kill every time it comes in, which it usually does. Defeatist is irrelevant because it doesn't miss KOs and can easily Roost on forced switches and then also threaten plenty of stuff the following turn.

I also agree with Punchshroom on Carracosta. Defensively and offensively it is a fantastic Pokemon, and it gets tons of setup opportunities.

Mesprit is weird. It absolutely should have dropped in Typhlosion meta because the only good set then was Scarf, but I'm not sure about it now. It's a weird Pokemon that does a lot of things decently but nothing spectacularly.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm gonna disagree with the mesprit nomination for it to be dropped.

As for the last 4-5 months, I have been an active user of this pokemon and each time I have used it, it's literally been an mvp partner for setup sweepers, revenge killer, momentum grabber, even extremely threatening with the power it can produce over uxie as an offensive calm mind user with coverage that is always unpredictable when deciding what you want to use to switch in. I'd say that each set depends on match up and team mate support of course, but it's never really let me down when producing results. It's an extremely versatile mon that can always leave you wondering what is your best switch in since it has coverage for almost everything.

For setup sweepers in this metagame, it's extremely useful to have several mini-sweeps during a game to wear down their checks and counters to your; for example samurott or gurdurr. Mesprit allows you to play your sweeper more recklessly as the chances are you can healing wish to it late game and can maintain and extreme amount of pressure.
Mesprit is an extremely effective lure for most teams if you need to get rid of a certain check, you can run an obscure move on mesprit to lure them. Examples could be colbur berry + signal beam for sneasel, hp fire / ground for steel types, energy ball for quagsires and in general I'd consider mesprit to be the most dangerous mon in the tier with how many options it has.

The only thing that has hindered mesprit's performance is the rise of pokemon like sneasel with pursuit. In this case it does stop you from using your psychic stab, however most of the time, they are choice locked into moves as the most common set is band, which would mean you come in and u-turn (using the scarfed set as an example) and even revenge kill this threat.

I'm not going to go into too much more detail since I'm biased towards certain styles and team structures and mesprit has been around long enough for everyone to know what it does, however I feel that mesprit has always been effective for me and I feel it fully deserves the S rank.

I support lowering mesprit too, I've been thinking it should be lower for a long time but was sure I'd get this sort of answer. To see as much likes on the very brief original nomination makes me think I'm probably not the only one though.

People who claim mesprit should be S have it's versatility as a main argument, only I feel while it can do multiple tasks, they all have rather similar counters. Yeah it can run a lot of different sets but you can usualy just throw in anything bulky enough to tank a couple of psychics/pschocks/zen-headbuts and the worst that can happen is SR getting up on your side of the field or your bulky mon gets tricked some shit which isn't that bad in most cases. The fact is, even if it's versatile, there's a lot of mesprit's sets that are simply inferior to uxie's (and other pschic types). Yeah it can put stealth rock and calm minds, but it's slower and will take more damage than uxie while doing so. Yeah it can go specs but it's ok coverage and average speed isn't that threatening at all. It's scarf set is nothing incredible either as just as any other scarfer, it's very weak, choicing it also reduces the viability of healing wish which is imo mesprit's greatest asset.
There's also the fact that even if you don't know what it's doing, you can generaly guess what it will do by looking at the rest of your opponent's team. Is it the only thing that learns stealth rock? if so, it probably has it (and isn't choiced). Does your opponent team lack revenge killers and speed in general? It's probably scarfed. Does your opponent send it in on a bulky set-up mon? It's probably going to trick it's choice item. Does your opponent send it in on something that shouldn't be immediatly scared of it? It's probably gonna use an obscure coverage move (ice beam, t-bolt, energy ball, signal beam). Now even if you do guess wrong, very rare are the times you'll be surprised more than once in a game and once mesprit has revealed a single move, you usualy have enough info to kill it without having it do any more important damage to your team.
In the end, mesprit does have a surprise factor but if the match-up doesn't let it abuse it, it mostly becomes a generic all-round mon that is never deadweight but isn't incredible either. The only reason I ever use mesprit over uxie is for healing wish (which even then has some competition with mr.mime which although poorly used, is not completely outclassed). I haven't used mesprit that much but as anyone playing NU I've faced a shitload and unlike what you said, I never really wonder what that mon is going to do. I just analyse the situation in which it was sent in and determine what it's most likely to do and what would disturb me the most and play in consequence.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well it's just when you weigh the pro's and cons of using Carracosta I don't see it being A rank material. It's a great mon to deal with physical threats like Tauros, Klinklang, Sneasel and what not, arguably one of the best in the tier (then again mons that reliably wall all three of those and more are quite rare in NU). But it has too many flaws to cope with for an A rank mon. A- is stretching it already but since it is good at its role of walling highly relevant threats I can see it staying. I won't go on about the Shell Smash set, just keep in mind SmashPass is a thing and Carracosta can't do it.

For all these flaws you kept bringing up, can you actually name them? From what I can see most of Carracosta's (minimal) flaws easily extend to Rhydon as well, and they're not even huge flaws that aren't too difficult to patch up. It doesn't have reliable recovery but Leftovers is able to keep it sustained enough to stop what it needs to, as opposed to zero recovery if holding Eviolite. Bulky Costa's offensive presence isn't as great as Rhydon's, but access to Scald and Aqua Jet can still make its presence known. Low Special Defense doesn't really matter when Rhydon doesn't fare much better, yet both are still perfectly capable of functioning in their roles. Costa even has ways to patch up its sluggish speed. I don't see much of anything that would significantly hold it back from A alongside Rhydon.

Also SmashPass really can't be compared with Costa itself (Barbaracle can't do SmashPass either :/), since the SmashPassers aren't intended to clean games by themselves; might as well start comparing Lilligant & Vivillon to QuiverPass Masquerain eh? There's also the fact that both SmashPassers are below Costa, which is a testament to the latter's effectiveness.

 

[Aasgier]

Carracosta's physical bulk is absolutely wicked on a physically defensive set - (only 2 physical attacks can OHKO it; Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk's Close Combat and Choice Band Torterra's Wood Hammer. After Rocks, we can add Leavanny and Leafeon's Life Orb Leaf Blades to this list. However, it's offensive presence on a fully defensive set is pretty shit, and everything with Bulk Up or Calm Mind that doesn't mind Scald or Stone Edge overly much sets up all over it. Stone Edge is piss weak (it doesn't even KO things with 75/75/75 bulk that it hits SE, damnit) and Rock Slide isn't flinching anything with 32 Base Speed and a negative nature. Aqua Jet without attacking investment isn't going to do jack, and if you sacrifice Def investment for Attack investment, suddenly a lot more things 2HKO it, or OHKO even. Even non-SE hits will 2HKO now as long as they are powerful enough, not to mention the Seed Bombs that litter the tier that it could easily take with max def investment.
For reference: 0 Atk Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 120-144 (38.3 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And Smash sets are just... no. Things that wall it are pretty damn common (Gourgeist, Poliwrath), and there is a good number of things that doesn't care about Aqua Jet and outspeeds at +2, Scarf or not. It also wants a Life Orb, and combine that with taking an attack when it sets up, it's longevity isn't that great. Especially you know, Punchshroom, since you argued it against being S-rank last generation for this very reason (and that was a meta without Gourgeist, Quagsire and Poliwrath, even if we temporarily lost Seismitoad).

Edit: And I failed to mention that Carracosta has a rather pathetic Special Defence...

 

[ryan]

Gourgeist and Poliwrath aren't common at all, and even if Gourgeist was, it takes 68-81 from a +2 Life Orb Stone Edge. Its longevity doesn't need to be great because it can set up on tons of stuff and then clean. Seismitoad was more common than Gourgeist, Quagsire, and Poliwrath are combined in this meta.

 

[Teddeh]

I support lowering mesprit too, I've been thinking it should be lower for a long time but was sure I'd get this sort of answer. To see as much likes on the very brief original nomination makes me think I'm probably not the only one though.

People who claim mesprit should be S have it's versatility as a main argument, only I feel while it can do multiple tasks, they all have rather similar counters. Yeah it can run a lot of different sets but you can usualy just throw in anything bulky enough to tank a couple of psychics/pschocks/zen-headbuts and the worst that can happen is SR getting up on your side of the field or your bulky mon gets tricked some shit which isn't that bad in most cases. The fact is, even if it's versatile, there's a lot of mesprit's sets that are simply inferior to uxie's (and other pschic types). Yeah it can put stealth rock and calm minds, but it's slower and will take more damage than uxie while doing so. Yeah it can go specs but it's ok coverage and average speed isn't that threatening at all. It's scarf set is nothing incredible either as just as any other scarfer, it's very weak, choicing it also reduces the viability of healing wish which is imo mesprit's greatest asset.
There's also the fact that even if you don't know what it's doing, you can generaly guess what it will do by looking at the rest of your opponent's team. Is it the only thing that learns stealth rock? if so, it probably has it (and isn't choiced). Does your opponent team lack revenge killers and speed in general? It's probably scarfed. Does your opponent send it in on a bulky set-up mon? It's probably going to trick it's choice item. Does your opponent send it in on something that shouldn't be immediatly scared of it? It's probably gonna use an obscure coverage move (ice beam, t-bolt, energy ball, signal beam). Now even if you do guess wrong, very rare are the times you'll be surprised more than once in a game and once mesprit has revealed a single move, you usualy have enough info to kill it without having it do any more important damage to your team.
In the end, mesprit does have a surprise factor but if the match-up doesn't let it abuse it, it mostly becomes a generic all-round mon that is never deadweight but isn't incredible either. The only reason I ever use mesprit over uxie is for healing wish (which even then has some competition with mr.mime which although poorly used, is not completely outclassed). I haven't used mesprit that much but as anyone playing NU I've faced a shitload and unlike what you said, I never really wonder what that mon is going to do. I just analyse the situation in which it was sent in and determine what it's most likely to do and what would disturb me the most and play in consequence.

The sets of mesprit you've mentioned such as the SR support set or the trick scarf set (???) are not the most effective mesprit sets at all and if you are playing against people using these sets, chances are its not a very experienced player who is very predictable like you said. The calm mind mesprit set is extremely threatening and I believe it has niches over uxie for its power and wallbreaking abilities, with the risk that you send in a mon that is "bulky enough to tank a couple of psychics/pschocks/zen-headbuts" and have them bop you with coverage options such as hp fire or even hp ground. It has the bulk to set up on a lot of pokemon in this tier and it has always been effective for me using it for wall breaking purposes.

What I seriously don't understand is how you completely underrate the scarf set? I'd go as far as saying that mesprit is the best scarfer in this tier (my opinion) and is certainly the best pivot. It's a dream come true for offensive cores. While it doesn't necessarily break and kill everything in its path; It's not supposed to! It's there to force their threat out and get yours in whilst having the ability to clean late game against offensive teams and revive anyone one of your threats that may be weakened. And since mantine is less of a staple on teams, you can even run any sort of coverage move as your 4th depending on what your team needs. Psychic, u-turn, healing wish, t-bolt/e-ball/signal/hpfire/hpground.

As a conclusive point; I don't see how people haven't had quite the same experience as i have when using mesprit. I'm not sure on whether it's the team, the player or how they choose to use it, but for me it's always been a standout pokemon with certain niches that just cannot be compared to with the likes of uxie or xatu.

Also bare in mind I'm posting from experience and not theory mon, I would love to know other opinions on this fully but I 100% feel it should stay S.

 

[Punchshroom]

Carracosta's physical bulk is absolutely wicked on a physically defensive set - (only 2 physical attacks can OHKO it; Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk's Close Combat and Choice Band Torterra's Wood Hammer. After Rocks, we can add Leavanny and Leafeon's Life Orb Leaf Blades to this list. However, it's offensive presence on a fully defensive set is pretty shit, and everything with Bulk Up or Calm Mind that doesn't mind Scald or Stone Edge overly much sets up all over it. Stone Edge is piss weak (it doesn't even KO things with 75/75/75 bulk that it hits SE, damnit) and Rock Slide isn't flinching anything with 32 Base Speed and a negative nature. Aqua Jet without attacking investment isn't going to do jack, and if you sacrifice Def investment for Attack investment, suddenly a lot more things 2HKO it, or OHKO even. Even non-SE hits will 2HKO now as long as they are powerful enough, not to mention the Seed Bombs that litter the tier that it could easily take with max def investment.
For reference: 0 Atk Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 120-144 (38.3 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

lol bringing up Leavanny again >.> Costa indeed has less offensive presence than Rhydon, but that's not to say it has no offensive presence at all; it still hits pretty decently for a wall, especially one with no offensive investment, plus it has the ability to spread burns which automatically deters and limits potential switch-ins. Besides, even Rhydon with all its offensive presence is still Bulk Up fodder for Gurdurr, still Calm Mind fodder for Cro-Mega Audino, and needs to go out of its way to fit Megahorn (or Roar) so that Musharna and Uxie don't set up in its face, so it's not fair to say Costa lets bulky boosters set up on it when that holds true for almost all bulky walls anyway, and even Rhydon is not exempt from this.

The only mons with 75/75/75 bulk in NU are Sawk and Octillery, so I have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously Rock Slide is not used for flinching on bulky Costa. If you don't find the Rock moves useful (I don't blame you, they're arguably indispensable on Costa), then you could always try your hand at utility moves like Knock Off or Toxic, or even attacks like Earthquake and Superpower to deter certain switch-ins or whatnot. Aqua Jet may not be strong, but in many ocassions I've found it to be great when used in a one-two punch alongside Costa's stronger attacks to finish opponents; it almost acts like a way to augment Carracosta's power. It also gives Costa utility even when near death, which is more than can be said for most bulky SR setters.

Also kindly explain the "Seed Bombs that litter the tier"? Even Aqua Tail Archeops and Kangaskhan are pretty rare, and aside from the [still even more super outclassed] Guts Ursaring, I can't think of offensive sweepers that would, or even can, carry Seed Bomb coverage. Uninvested Garbodor's Seed Bomb merely 4HKOes (yes we're talking a 4x effective 80 BP attack), while offensive Adamant Garbo still only 3HKOes (still the same attack).

And Smash sets are just... no. Things that wall it are pretty damn common (Gourgeist, Poliwrath), and there is a good number of things that doesn't care about Aqua Jet and outspeeds at +2, Scarf or not. It also wants a Life Orb, and combine that with taking an attack when it sets up, it's longevity isn't that great. Especially you know, Punchshroom, since you argued it against being S-rank last generation for this very reason (and that was a meta without Gourgeist, Quagsire and Poliwrath, even if we temporarily lost Seismitoad).

I was relatively inexperienced back then compared to now :/, and realized longevity wasn't really a huge deal with SmashCosta as long as it contributes (which it does even if it doesn't Smash). While I still wouldn't have argued for it to be S then, that isn't enough to hold it back from A now. Like holly said, Seismitoad was incredibly common and pretty much rendered any non-Smash + HP Grass Costa variant a liability, and its departure is very significant for Costa's increase in viability. It's not like I'm nomming it for S now or even A+ (though tbh, Costa still has a mild shot at that), just A in the meantime.

Edit: And I failed to mention that Carracosta has a rather pathetic Special Defence...

Like I explained to liarliarpantsonfire, why does this matter again? It's not like Carracosta is meant to counter special threats, and its Special Defense is not even that bad for the special threats it does respond to, like mono-STAB Vivillon, non-Focus Blast Jynx, and Choice-locked Pyroar.