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Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
The sets of mesprit you've mentioned such as the SR support set or the trick scarf set (???) are not the most effective mesprit sets at all and if you are playing against people using these sets, chances are its not a very experienced player who is very predictable like you said. The calm mind mesprit set is extremely threatening and I believe it has niches over uxie for its power and wallbreaking abilities, with the risk that you send in a mon that is "bulky enough to tank a couple of psychics/pschocks/zen-headbuts" and have them bop you with coverage options such as hp fire or even hp ground. It has the bulk to set up on a lot of pokemon in this tier and it has always been effective for me using it for wall breaking purposes.

What I seriously don't understand is how you completely underrate the scarf set? I'd go as far as saying that mesprit is the best scarfer in this tier (my opinion) and is certainly the best pivot. It's a dream come true for offensive cores. While it doesn't necessarily break and kill everything in its path; It's not supposed to! It's there to force their threat out and get yours in whilst having the ability to clean late game against offensive teams and revive anyone one of your threats that may be weakened. And since mantine is less of a staple on teams, you can even run any sort of coverage move as your 4th depending on what your team needs. Psychic, u-turn, healing wish, t-bolt/e-ball/signal/hpfire/hpground.

As a conclusive point; I don't see how people haven't had quite the same experience as i have when using mesprit. I'm not sure on whether it's the team, the player or how they choose to use it, but for me it's always been a standout pokemon with certain niches that just cannot be compared to with the likes of uxie or xatu.

Also bare in mind I'm posting from experience and not theory mon, I would love to know other opinions on this fully but I 100% feel it should stay S.
To make it brief, I feel it's nice coverage options are both situational and redundant as none of them is unique in the psychics departement (uxie, mushy, mr.mime, xatu, jynx, kadabra).

Scarf's fast healing wish is nice, but the fact you have to come in exclusively to use healing wish (if you want it to be fast) makes a lot of nice plays impossible and often makes mesprit use healing wish as it's only move (with maybe one or 2 super weak u-turns). Not to mention even if it probably is the best scarfer, in my experience, most of the time, scarf is just plain bad in this meta where so much thnigs set up on weak attackers and where many sweepers have priority or double their speed and outspeed you anyway (klinklang, gorebyss, weather sweepers). In fact, with nothing common using dragon dance, only quiver dancers are revenged by scarf and both users outspeed scarf mesprit at +1 which means it's item's only purpose is to outspeed natural fast mons and a couple of slow shell smahsers. (Being choice locked is a very big price to pay just to outspeed things that can switch out and come back in later without losing any boosts)

I think I've covered a lot in my original post already, but yeah mesprit is just too well rounded to actually pose a serious threat like an S tier mon should. It does have loads of sets but they're all similar, often outclassed by another psychic type and can be guessed rather easily.

I might not have used mesprit as much as you, but I have used it and I haved faced plenty from good users.
 
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Orphic

perhaps
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Without bandwaggoning on Punchshroom as much as I can, I'll explain my stance on Costa. There hasn't been a substantial argument for Costa not to move up to A so far, and tbh, I don't think there is any dispute in moving it up. Here are the reasons why it's a great mon that fits on a lot of teams:
  • Incredible bulk! I mean, anything that happens to bring Seed Bomb doesn't even OHKO is as Punch mentioned.
  • Great abilities, Solid Rock and Sturdy can be chosen on preference and both help Costa carry out its roles reliably.
  • Utility: Toxic, Rocks, Aqua Jet etc, what's not to love here, an element of unpredictability.
  • SCALD.
  • Creates uncertainty about which set it is carrying, causing opponents to be cautious.
I could ramble on with more, but this is the bedrock of what I'm trying to say. We make these nominations and rank pokemon based on their ability to and the reliability in which they carry out their roles.

Carracosta has two main roles:

  • Offensive Shell Smasher.
  • Defensive Stealth Rock setter and utility team support.
Let's consider its bulk and whether this allows it to carry out these roles shall we. Surviving 4x weak attacks means it can set up rocks reliably, it can set up rocks on weak attacks, it can spread burns and further increase its ability to take hits this way too. This bulk works for the other set too! Can it set up SS on strong attacks? Yes. Can it set up SS on weak attacks? YES! And not only this, it brings priority in Aqua Jet if you find you just aren't fast enough after a SS.

tl;dr: Costa carries out its roles just as well as any A rank mon, and maybe even better, there is no reason to dispute it moving up. I feel like it sets up on most of the A+ mons tbh.



Okay now let's address Mesprit:

Part of me feels like Mesprit has too many roles. Let's look at Slurpuff, Mega Lucario in OU that time, their unpredictability gave them such sway over the metagame, due to all their roles being so efficient and powerful. I feel like with Mesprit, you either sacrifice power for speed, or speed for power, one or the other, it never does both. Its mediocre speed tier, as Jesus said, means Scarf Mesprit only helps in outspeeding unboosted mons such as Sneasel which you don't even OHKO with U-Turn. Other than that, its a bit of a toss up whether the coverage options you've chosen suit the matchup. Many times I've changed my Mesprit to have Tbolt and then not encountered a single Mantine for ages, only to see a million Quagsires. Exaggeration but my point is, Mesprit may have a lot of coverage to deal with a lot of stuff, but it's usefulness is very circumstantial and I don't feel like it helps more than it hinders, rather the opposite, unfortunately.

So to summarise for Mesprit:
NOT an S rank mon, but certainly A+. This is 95% due to the power vs speed conundrum that the Mesprit user has to deal with, and it's something that means Mesprit lacks that certain oomph to push it to S rank for me.
 
Floatzel Unranked ---> C+

I'm surprised this thing isn't ranked yet because Floatzel is actually a pretty decent mon, but it faces competition from Samurott somewhat in regards to special attacking set (which is Floatzel's best set). What it does have over Samurott is fantastic speed tier that is shared with Sneasel (let's it possibly speed tie and OHKO Sneasel with Focus Blast in clutch situations) which is very valuable with all of these fast threats running around. Its special movepool is limited, but Floatzel has just about the same coverage as Samurott and has a nifty option in Focus Blast to OHKO Magneton and Tauros. It does have flaws in being vulnerable to priority, as well as general frailty, but it can prove to be a decent late game cleaner unlike Samurott who is focused more on pure wall breaking. C+ is fitting for Floatzel for the time being.
 
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lol bringing up Leavanny again >.> Costa indeed has less offensive presence than Rhydon, but that's not to say it has no offensive presence at all; it still hits pretty decently for a wall, especially one with no offensive investment, plus it has the ability to spread burns which automatically deters and limits potential switch-ins. Besides, even Rhydon with all its offensive presence is still Bulk Up fodder for Gurdurr, still Calm Mind fodder for Cro-Mega Audino, and needs to go out of its way to fit Megahorn (or Roar) so that Musharna and Uxie don't set up in its face, so it's not fair to say Costa lets bulky boosters set up on it when that holds true for almost all bulky walls anyway, and even Rhydon is not exempt from this.
But Rhydon at least CAN run Roar. Rhydon's Earthquake threatens a 2HKO on Gurdurr and Megahorn obviously whacks Musharna. Rhydon does have a free last moveslot anyway... what the hell does it really need outside of Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Rock Blast.

The only mons with 75/75/75 bulk in NU are Sawk and Octillery, so I have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously Rock Slide is not used for flinching on bulky Costa. If you don't find the Rock moves useful (I don't blame you, they're arguably indispensable on Costa), then you could always try your hand at utility moves like Knock Off or Toxic, or even attacks like Earthquake and Superpower to deter certain switch-ins or whatnot. Aqua Jet may not be strong, but in many ocassions I've found it to be great when used in a one-two punch alongside Costa's stronger attacks to finish opponents; it almost acts like a way to augment Carracosta's power. It also gives Costa utility even when near death, which is more than can be said for most bulky SR setters.
75/75/75 was a theoretical example. However, now I run the calc, it was still incorrect: 0 Atk Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Accelgor: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO - Accelgor has 75/75 HP and Defense for the purpose of this calculation... still no certainty of OHKO'ing and still weak, though -.- . I rather run Golem or Rhydon at that point because Rock Blast can break substitutes.
Also note that Golem can and will run Sucker Punch, so Costa is not alone in having priority. Golem and Gigalith can explode (sorry Gurdurr!) too.

Also kindly explain the "Seed Bombs that litter the tier"? Even Aqua Tail Archeops and Kangaskhan are pretty rare, and aside from the [still even more super outclassed] Guts Ursaring, I can't think of offensive sweepers that would, or even can, carry Seed Bomb coverage. Uninvested Garbodor's Seed Bomb merely 4HKOes (yes we're talking a 4x effective 80 BP attack), while offensive Adamant Garbo still only 3HKOes (still the same attack).
I meant Seed Bombs that would deal more damage when you shift EVs from def to attack, which would result in this:
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nice 3HKO.

Also note, it was a theoretical example. Other moves in this category are Zangoose's Close Combat and such. I was just thinking of Arbok, Ursaring, and Linoone at that point but Seed Bomb is certainly not the only thing:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 231-273 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bye, now my flier gets past.

I was relatively inexperienced back then compared to now :/, and realized longevity wasn't really a huge deal with SmashCosta as long as it contributes (which it does even if it doesn't Smash). While I still wouldn't have argued for it to be S then, that isn't enough to hold it back from A now. Like holly said, Seismitoad was incredibly common and pretty much rendered any non-Smash + HP Grass Costa variant a liability, and its departure is very significant for Costa's increase in viability. It's not like I'm nomming it for S now or even A+ (though tbh, Costa still has a mild shot at that), just A in the meantime.
yeah but back then we didn't have Poliwrath and Gourgeist and other bulky mofo's to wall it into oblivion.

Note that I have only became more biased against Carracosta over time, since I've only had more disappointments in using it (and facing it, for that matter) since our last discussion about it those few years ago. Because yes, I used it again - both defensive and offensive variants - and it never remained on a team, and it literally always disappointed. It might be me, but I'm not capable of using it. At all. I've even had more success with Castform, Ledian and Pikachu of all things.
Also, it doesn't really help that whenever I faced a Carracosta I just switched in a counter, used Taunt or Will-O-Wisp, or whatever... it never did much bar just sitting there and dying. I fear Ursaring in the team preview more than Carracosta.
 
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Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Just going to put it out there, Gourgiest does not wall Carracosta as you imply. Carracosta can run special sets such as Shell Smash ice beam if you mindlessly switch it into the usual counters.
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 364-429 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

That is with zero special investment and simply adding ice beam over a usual STAB option.

Hollywood even provided a calc earlier that shows Carracosta can pretty easily break Gourgiest even with physical smash sets.

The reason Punch is nomming for A is not only because of its huge bulk and defensive capabilities, but for its variability (Shell smash/Special sets/Stealth Rock (offensive or defensive)) which Rhydon clearly lacks.

To me the departure of its main counter Toad is enough for me to be convinced Costa should move to A, as it was still quite good even before the shifts.
 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 306-360 (105.5 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just don't try to wall Carra, just kill it if it has set up a Smash.

And every Smasher can go mixed, but it usually detracts from its main ability unless you specificially need to lure something (and even then, Ice Beam does not help with the issue Carracosta has with bulky waters.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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But Rhydon at least CAN run Roar. Rhydon's Earthquake threatens a 2HKO on Gurdurr and Megahorn obviously whacks Musharna. Rhydon does have a free last moveslot anyway... what the hell does it really need outside of Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Rock Blast.
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Excuse me? And this is not even counting the +1 Def Gurdurr would get afterward, and the damage it will easily heal off with Drain Punch. Rhydon shouldn't tangle with Gurdurr in any case, so saying Costa not being able to handle Gurdurr is completely irrelevant.

75/75/75 was a theoretical example. However, now I run the calc, it was still incorrect: 0 Atk Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Accelgor: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO - Accelgor has 75/75 HP and Defense for the purpose of this calculation... still no certainty of OHKO'ing and still weak, though -.- . I rather run Golem or Rhydon at that point because Rock Blast can break substitutes.
Also note that Golem can and will run Sucker Punch, so Costa is not alone in having priority. Golem and Gigalith can explode (sorry Gurdurr!) too.
Costa's access to priority, like I've said before, helps to make up for its not overwhelming power and let it finish opponents that would otherwise survive its attacks. In fact, the fact that it only takes one hit from the opponent while finishing them off in two turns means Costa would end up getting more Leftovers recovery in the end, as opposed to only getting one turn of Lefties recovery should it simply OHKO the opponent on that turn. This applies to numerous opponents such as Pyroar, Archeops, Zangoose, Eviolite Sneasel, Tauros (after 2 Scalds), Pinsir, etc... I won't deny bulky Costa's power not being too impressive, but I've never really had a problem with it since it still pretty much does the job of KOing foes just fine, and keeps itself sustained nicely doing so.

I meant Seed Bombs that would deal more damage when you shift EVs from def to attack, which would result in this:
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nice 3HKO.

Also note, it was a theoretical example. Other moves in this category are Zangoose's Close Combat and such. I was just thinking of Arbok, Ursaring, and Linoone at that point but Seed Bomb is certainly not the only thing:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 231-273 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bye, now my flier gets past.
Nice Costa calc; virtually no Carracosta runs only max HP. Defensive Costa runs plenty of Defense alongside HP (I personally hit the second highest jump point and dump the rest into SpD to take resisted special hits noticeably better), while SmashCostas run pretty much no bulk, but between either Sturdy or Solid Rock, Zangoose still cannot take down Costa in one blow.

yeah but back then we didn't have Poliwrath and Gourgeist and other bulky mofo's to wall it into oblivion.
That's two new threats (plus Ferroseed and Quagsire) to Costa that get less combined usage than the super common one that has always held Costa back (Seismitoad), and Costa was good enough to be considered A+ back then. No longer being stopped by literally the #2 Pokemon in the meta is a huge breath of relief for Costa, regardless of the numerous mons still present to stop it. Also, Gourgeist can also be pressured into KO range when you consider the fact that it commonly combats Fighting-types and gets Knocked Off frequently, denying its passive recovery. If up against defensive Costa, neither Gourgeist, Ferroseed, nor Quagsire like Scald burns, and Costa would much prefer to face these foes than get hardwalled by Seismitoad.

Note that I have only became more biased against Carracosta over time, since I've only had more disappointments in using it (and facing it, for that matter) since our last discussion about it those few years ago. Because yes, I used it again - both defensive and offensive variants - and it never remained on a team, and it literally always disappointed. It might be me, but I'm not capable of using it. At all. I've even had more success with Castform, Ledian and Pikachu of all things.
Also, it doesn't really help that whenever I faced a Carracosta I just switched in a counter, used Taunt or Will-O-Wisp, or whatever... it never did much bar just sitting there and dying. I fear Ursaring in the team preview more than Carracosta.
Well I can't exactly "advise" you on this matter, but I will say it takes time for an opinion to differ; it took me until like mid-to-late XY to treat Mismagius with the respect it deserved. But the general consensus atm would be that Costa is pretty consistent in its role as either one of the prime bulky SR setters in the tier with its own unique brand of utility, or as a deadly Shell Smash sweeper that is still more than capable of fighting even without Smashing.
 
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ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
So surprised that Floatzel was unranked O_O

Simipour to B

It's quite simple, everyone uses hydro pump, grass knot, ice beam samurott with life orb and says it is very good. Simipour can pull off the exact set except with base 101 speed compared to base 70. It is also a good sweeper or wallbreaker if you use Nasty Plot or Taunt, and has some interesting coverage moves to break through specific stuff. For example, Superpower hits Ferroseed, Knock Off beats Jynx, and Gunk Shot actually OHKOes offensive Ludicolo.

0 Atk Life Orb Simipour Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Basically it hits hard, is fast, and has good coverage. All in all a very solid mon
 
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Excuse me? And this is not even counting the +1 Def Gurdurr would get afterward, and the damage it will easily heal off with Drain Punch. Rhydon shouldn't tangle with Gurdurr in any case, so saying Costa not being able to handle Gurdurr is completely irrelevant.
OK... ladder sucks, point taken. Must've been Choice Band Rhydon I've faced repeatedly, then... lol

Nice Costa calc; virtually no Carracosta runs only max HP. Defensive Costa runs plenty of Defense alongside HP (I personally hit the second highest jump point and dump the rest into SpD to take resisted special hits noticeably better), while SmashCostas run pretty much no bulk, but between either Sturdy or Solid Rock, Zangoose still cannot take down Costa in one blow.
Then our debate is getting moot regardless - I stated that for Carracosta's attack to be worth a damn it had to be invested into, and if it did invest in attack (and thus, as a result, not in defense), it would open itself to a lot of moves (including those Seed Bombs as well as Zangoose's Close Combat).

Well I can't exactly "advise" you on this matter, but I will say it takes time for an opinion to differ; it took me until like mid-to-late XY to treat Mismagius with the respect it deserved. But the general consensus atm would be that Costa is pretty consistent in its role as either one of the prime bulky SR setters in the tier with its own unique brand of utility, or as a deadly Shell Smash sweeper that is still more than capable of fighting even without Smashing.
The problem with Costa is more that whenever I'm using it - whether it is now or two years ago - I end up replacing it and do better. Barbaracle, Golem, Regirock, Rhydon, Gurdurr, Feraligatr, they all have replaced Carracosta on at least one of my teams in the past.
 
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scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
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Dont really have an opinion on whether or not Costa's traits are enough to push it to A but imma just post some stuff for what it's worth

Aasgier

I dont see how those mons can truly "replace" Carracosta completely. Defensive Costa provides a blanket check to a lot of Pokemon, and this includes Fletchinder, Scyther, Archeops, Normal-types, Sneasel, and Mawile. And while it cannot consistently cover every one of them in a single match, it does check them all well enough, and at least forces them out or weakens them enough. Defensive costa was the only fit on some of my teams because it can check any one of these threats in a game which gave me more freedom on my other teamslots. Offensive Carracosta has a very strong niche as well. Carracosta's typing and bulk lets it find setup opportunities really easily and its Shell Smash sets are really dangerous because theyre versatile and can easily go mixed, fully special, or the plain old physical smash set that works just as well. With scarfers that reliably revenge kill it (ie dont die to AJet / can outspeed) on the decline, i think it has only gotten better.

I also dont see the need to invest in attack for defensive costa. Like you said the extra defense is really nice and Costa can check what it needs to without attack investment most of the time -- its Scalds still make physical attackers wary, while Rock Tomb (which is quite fun to use, makes revenge killing stuff a lot easier) or Rock Slide or Stone Edge still gets the job of beating Scyther / Fletchinder done. I dont know if the added power for aqua jet is worth it because i havent used it, but i personally dont think attack investment is worth it on a defensive set
 
I'm also neutral about Carracosta (I am just too biased to have a proper opinion and I know it) if it actually comes to ranking it - that and I have a tendency to carry Poliwrath this generation, which my opinion on Carracosta suffers from even more.
 

Ren-chon

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Poliwrath to B/B+


Well, I’ve been a huge user of Poliwrath since this tier shift, and I gotta say I’m surprised by how damn well he fares in this meta. The set I’m talking about isn’t the most popular one, which is the defensive resttalk, but rather the specially offensive LO/Specs, which is getting better and better as Mantine and Pelipper aren't as common as they used to be. “Why use it over Samurott?” well, I’ll cover that when I tell the things he checks, but it really has 2 reasons: Fight-type and special priority (Vacuum Wave).

The way the tier is walking right now means Poliwrath has even more opportunities to switch in and to kill things: Magneton is making it obligatory to pack a Ground-type (or Lanturn, which sadly Poliwrath can’t do much against unless severely weakened), Fletchinder skyrocketed the usage of Rock-types while making Grass-types in general a bit less viable, while countering Kabutops and checking Pinsir. It counters or checks some other nasty offensive threats: Sneasel, Samurott (even though you may need to risk the GK and tie if both are +(S)Atk), Klinklang, the Carracosta everyone seems to love now, Barbaracle (watch out for the GK), and others. Also, it does a good job acting as a sort of anti lead, as it OHKOs almost every SR Setter. Btw, of all the partners for Fletchinder, he’s probably one of the best, so one more point for him I think.

Unfortunately, Grass-types still exist and Wrath has some troubles with them, as Ice Beam can’t even OHKO SDef Torterra or Lilligant. It gives a lot of free turns to CM Psychics but that’s what your 5 other slots are for n_n 1st post in this thread, so sorry if I didn't sound clear enough :x
 
Electrode from unranked to D

Yeah Electrode isn't all that great but Rain is really strong right now with Kabutops in the tier and Electrode is simply one of the best Rain setters out there. For one, it's the fastest mon in the tier. Literally. You can run Modest and you still outspeed everything. This makes Electrode a really strong revenge killer even when Rain isn't up. That's probably its biggest perk right there as there's a lot of fast mons out there that are very troublesome (Archeops, Pyroar, Tauros, Sneasel etc.). Life Orb Thunder OHKO's all of them after SR. And you should run LO Electrode because Damp Rock is just weak and you don't need that many turns of Rain anyway. Then Electrode also gets strong utility moves in Taunt or even Magic Coat.

And on top of that you even have Soundproof to counter the biggest threat in the tier: Boomburst Chatot. That is all.
 
Electrode from unranked to D

Yeah Electrode isn't all that great but Rain is really strong right now with Kabutops in the tier and Electrode is simply one of the best Rain setters out there. For one, it's the fastest mon in the tier. Literally. You can run Modest and you still outspeed everything. This makes Electrode a really strong revenge killer even when Rain isn't up. That's probably its biggest perk right there as there's a lot of fast mons out there that are very troublesome (Archeops, Pyroar, Tauros, Sneasel etc.). Life Orb Thunder OHKO's all of them after SR. And you should run LO Electrode because Damp Rock is just weak and you don't need that many turns of Rain anyway. Then Electrode also gets strong utility moves in Taunt or even Magic Coat.

And on top of that you even have Soundproof to counter the biggest threat in the tier: Boomburst Chatot. That is all.
You've mentioned a load of perks of having it but running rain dance + thunder on the same set with life orb doesn't seem to be ideal since you need a rain dance up for it to work with 100% accuracy, you'd need to either force a switch, take a hit or get ko'd in order to set up the rain assuming they have not lead with anything that is bopped by electric.

Secondly, your main argument was as a rain setter, what does electrode have over liepard, uxie or even volbeat where it can use prankster with moves such as encore, stealth rock, memento, taunt itself whilst they can even hold a damp rock with it since electrode isn't running one for the life orb thunder calc to work?

Thirdly, having a fast volt switch isn't great at all for a rain setter, whereas volbeat has a slower one which means you can gain momentum much easier whilst stopping the chance of potential setup moves with the threat of encore. Liepard has amazing utility whilst also having prankster backing these moves up along with STAB knock offs.

Lastly, what does electrode have over any other electric type in this tier? Evire, magneton, raichu, lanturn; they all do a better job. The only thing electrode has going for it is its incredible speed however its terrible power really negates the effectiveness since you need to run life orb + thunder + sr to ko the other offensive threats in NU that makes it such an outclassed and terrible pokemon that wouldn't even cross my mind when deciding pokemon to use in a rain team or a normal team.

tl;dr it should stay unranked
 

Punchshroom

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Poliwrath to B/B+


Well, I’ve been a huge user of Poliwrath since this tier shift, and I gotta say I’m surprised by how damn well he fares in this meta. The set I’m talking about isn’t the most popular one, which is the defensive resttalk, but rather the specially offensive LO/Specs, which is getting better and better as Mantine and Pelipper aren't as common as they used to be. “Why use it over Samurott?” well, I’ll cover that when I tell the things he checks, but it really has 2 reasons: Fight-type and special priority (Vacuum Wave).

The way the tier is walking right now means Poliwrath has even more opportunities to switch in and to kill things: Magneton is making it obligatory to pack a Ground-type (or Lanturn, which sadly Poliwrath can’t do much against unless severely weakened), Fletchinder skyrocketed the usage of Rock-types while making Grass-types in general a bit less viable, while countering Kabutops and checking Pinsir. It counters or checks some other nasty offensive threats: Sneasel, Samurott (even though you may need to risk the GK and tie if both are +(S)Atk), Klinklang, the Carracosta everyone seems to love now, Barbaracle (watch out for the GK), and others. Also, it does a good job acting as a sort of anti lead, as it OHKOs almost every SR Setter. Btw, of all the partners for Fletchinder, he’s probably one of the best, so one more point for him I think.

Unfortunately, Grass-types still exist and Wrath has some troubles with them, as Ice Beam can’t even OHKO SDef Torterra or Lilligant. It gives a lot of free turns to CM Psychics but that’s what your 5 other slots are for n_n 1st post in this thread, so sorry if I didn't sound clear enough :x
While I can attest to the effectiveness of the special set, I believe that is the set that actually keeps Poliwrath relevant in this meta. Defensive Poliwrath is just...pretty outclassed. Quagsire walls a huge majority of what Poliwrath intends to wall (which is not even that much), and Quag's lone weakness and reliable recovery make it much better at the job as well. The special set may just be a worthwhile enough bump to B due to its decent neutral coverage, and it is one of the very few attackers in the tier that isn't at all vulnerable to Sneasel. However, its lack of overall power would hold it back from B+ imo.

Electrode from unranked to D

Yeah Electrode isn't all that great but Rain is really strong right now with Kabutops in the tier and Electrode is simply one of the best Rain setters out there. For one, it's the fastest mon in the tier. Literally. You can run Modest and you still outspeed everything. This makes Electrode a really strong revenge killer even when Rain isn't up. That's probably its biggest perk right there as there's a lot of fast mons out there that are very troublesome (Archeops, Pyroar, Tauros, Sneasel etc.). Life Orb Thunder OHKO's all of them after SR. And you should run LO Electrode because Damp Rock is just weak and you don't need that many turns of Rain anyway. Then Electrode also gets strong utility moves in Taunt or even Magic Coat.

And on top of that you even have Soundproof to counter the biggest threat in the tier: Boomburst Chatot. That is all.
Electrode has fallen far from grace as a Rain setter ever since the Explosion nerf and team preview becoming a thing (which is to say, since BW); access to a blisteringly fast Rain Dance, Taunt, and STAB Thunder just isn't cutting it anymore. The Prankster mons are much more consistent emergency Rain setters since they can actually set the weather against boosted threats while Electrode's Speed usually would not save the team from being counterswept should the Rain run out. Electrode's utility is also limited, as it has nowhere near the bulk nor the offenses to make that effective use of Magic Coat, Aftermath, and even Taunt.

That's not even half of Electrode's worries. It is outclassed as a revenge killer by Zebstrika which outspeeds all of the mons you mentioned, except it has actual coverage in Overheat to smash Grass-types and Magneton, unlike Electrode which gets jack squat, and abilities that provide defensive utility and aren't extremely situational. So yeah, Electrode is not a 'really strong revenge killer', especially if you're going to rely on Thunder :/ . Hell, Ninjask is a better revenge killer than Electrode since it actually outspeeds boosted Lilligant and has Infilitrator to snipe through Subs.

Electrode is still pretty awful and its niches are incredibly minimal; it doesn't even have a place on Rain teams anymore, much less outside of them.
 
Well Electrode has offensive presence unlike Uxie/Volbeat and even Liepard only has a weak Knock Off. If you mean to say that positive natured base 80 SpAtk with a LO and a 110 base power STAB move is "terrible power" then fine I don't know what to say to that.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Electrode Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lickilicky: 195-230 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the calcs against our testing dummy Lickilicky (just because its defenses are equal), Electrodes damage output is only slightly lower than that of LO Sheer Force Tauros who, I think we can all agree on, is one of the most powerful attackers in the tier. And Electric is even better offensively than Normal.

The question is more what Volbeat and Liepard have over Electrode imo. Prankster and Encore, and that's really it. Volbeat has a slow U-turn but can't hurt anything itself. Electrode also has a fast T-Wave to cripple something before it dies like Volbeat and Liepard, which is arguably better than Explosion was before its nerf because it allows setup opportunities. So it's really just Prankster and Encore. Not to mention you want to run two Rain setters at least on a Rain team, so you could easily use both Electrode and one of the other two.

Again Volbeats usefulness is limited exclusively to Weather teams, and it's ranked C-. I'm suggesting that Electrode is ranked even lower. And Electrode does have something over the other Electric-types, its speed. Which is a big deal in the current metagame. And it has Taunt to shut down Ferroseed and the like, unlike Zebstrika. Besides Overheat on a Rain team is just awkward.

Not ranking it just seems silly considering it has a clear niche over other weather setters that are ranked, like Volbeat. Which is already incredibly niche in itself.
 
Volbeat and Liepard being slower naturally allows you to bring in your rain sweeper without having it take any damage while prankster give them priority on Rain Dance.
The only move that allows Electrode to hit hard is Thunder and it needs Rain to be reliable. Rather unlikely with those rather paperthin defenses.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Well Electrode has offensive presence unlike Uxie/Volbeat and even Liepard only has a weak Knock Off. If you mean to say that positive natured base 80 SpAtk with a LO and a 110 base power STAB move is "terrible power" then fine I don't know what to say to that.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Electrode Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lickilicky: 195-230 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the calcs against our testing dummy Lickilicky (just because its defenses are equal), Electrodes damage output is only slightly lower than that of LO Sheer Force Tauros who, I think we can all agree on, is one of the most powerful attackers in the tier. And Electric is even better offensively than Normal.

The question is more what Volbeat and Liepard have over Electrode imo. Prankster and Encore, and that's really it. Volbeat has a slow U-turn but can't hurt anything itself. Electrode also has a fast T-Wave to cripple something before it dies like Volbeat and Liepard, which is arguably better than Explosion was before its nerf because it allows setup opportunities. So it's really just Prankster and Encore. Not to mention you want to run two Rain setters at least on a Rain team, so you could easily use both Electrode and one of the other two.

Again Volbeats usefulness is limited exclusively to Weather teams, and it's ranked C-. I'm suggesting that Electrode is ranked even lower. And Electrode does have something over the other Electric-types, its speed. Which is a big deal in the current metagame. And it has Taunt to shut down Ferroseed and the like, unlike Zebstrika. Besides Overheat on a Rain team is just awkward.

Not ranking it just seems silly considering it has a clear niche over other weather setters that are ranked, like Volbeat. Which is already incredibly niche in itself.
if I were to run a dedicated rain setter, Damp Rock would be the only item I would consider on it. Running LO on your dedicated rain setter means that you only get 3 turns of rain to work with assuming you switch out immediately after setting up rain, which is definitely not worth it given that half the team requires it to work. A fast rain dance isn't as good as a prankster one either since you don't get to outrun speed boosting sweepers or priority users like Kabutops or Fletchinder.

Without LO, Electrode's power is just quite bad and there's little reason to use it over another rain setter that provides more utility with its moves (knock off / u-turn / prankster encore is way more useful for instance) and it has almost nothing setting it apart from Liepard apart from its good speed, which doesn't even matter much because of prankster (and it doesn't hit that hard). Not to mention that a prankster rain dance at the cost of its life will enable liepard's harder hitting teammates to outspeed the opponent and hit them anyway.

Also, what set would Electrode even run? Taunt / Rain Dance / Thunder / Volt Switch doesn't really sound like a good set now that Electric resists / immunities are on virtually every team and you'd just be wasting a rain turn if they switch into your attack

there's hardly a reason to use electrode imo, unranked seems fine for it
 
if I were to run a dedicated rain setter, Damp Rock would be the only item I would consider on it. Running LO on your dedicated rain setter means that you only get 3 turns of rain to work with assuming you switch out immediately after setting up rain, which is definitely not worth it given that half the team requires it to work. A fast rain dance isn't as good as a prankster one either since you don't get to outrun speed boosting sweepers or priority users like Kabutops or Fletchinder.

Without LO, Electrode's power is just quite bad and there's little reason to use it over another rain setter that provides more utility with its moves (knock off / u-turn / prankster encore is way more useful for instance) and it has almost nothing setting it apart from Liepard apart from its good speed, which doesn't even matter much because of prankster (and it doesn't hit that hard). Not to mention that a prankster rain dance at the cost of its life will enable liepard's harder hitting teammates to outspeed the opponent and hit them anyway.

Also, what set would Electrode even run? Taunt / Rain Dance / Thunder / Volt Switch doesn't really sound like a good set now that Electric resists / immunities are on virtually every team and you'd just be wasting a rain turn if they switch into your attack

there's hardly a reason to use electrode imo, unranked seems fine for it
Good luck with your Prankster Volbeat against a Gale Wings Fletchinder I would say. I mean this is really just theorymon, you're not even sure which set Electrode runs... Nothing personal but I'm nominating something that probably nobody even thinks about using (partially because it's not ranked), but at least give it a try before commenting on it. Goes for the other guys too. People claiming that it has terrible power and paperthin defenses while it still has better base defenses than Volbeat. Volbeat has to go max HP/max Def just to somewhat salvage its atrocious bulk and then it still has nothing going for it offensively. And the point of using Electrode is that it can actually make use of the Rain it sets up or that other teammates (!) set up. Volbeat is literally set up rain and become death fodder. Which is not bad but it's not the only way to do it.

As for a set, like I said max/max with Modest and LO and then something like Taunt/T-Wave + Rain Dance + Thunder + HP Grass works fine. You don't need that many Rain turns unless you're literally facing stall but that's just the match up. Not to mention Electrode doesn't have to switch, Volbeat has to run Damp Rock because it has to U-turn out and waste a turn everytime. And c'mon, surely it's good enough for D rank which is literally this:

Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time. These Pokemon are, for the most part, daft to use.

By that definition I would even put Electrode in C rank because its positive traits far exceed its flaws, and setting up Rain is not a small niche atm if you know what Rain teams are like.
 
Not a huge player of NU, but what reason is there to use Electrode over Zebstrika? One may say speed and Taunt, but going off of Liarliarpantsonfire argument, with Modest, you outspeed nothing that Zebstrika doesn't. And while Taunt is neat, I can't see it justifying a ranking. Zebstrika has better abilities from Electrode, having either an Electric immunity or a Grass immunity, while Electrode's only good ability is Soundproof, which helps against Swellow and Chatot, in which you beat anyway. Not to mention Zebstrika has use outside of Rain, which high powered Fire coverage and decent mixed capabilities, while Electrode's only use is Rain.
 
But Zebstrika is all the way in C+... Electrode is stronger and faster and has Taunt which stops stall mons with recovery. And Overheat just leaves you as setup fodder and doesn't go well with Rain. Nobody is going to use Lumineon over Prinplup but that's why it's in D rank while Prinplup is almost top tier. A niche is worth a rank however small.
 
I never said use Overheat with Rain, I said Zebstrika has uses out of Rain, like Overheat, which allows it to beat Magneton, and kill Ferroseed quicker. Plus there is reasons to use Lumineon over Prinplup, like U-Turn, a Water immunity, and the ability to hold Leftovers. With Electrode, it's literally just Taunt. Plus the extra speed you have over Zebstrika doesn't even matter when you outspeed nothing it doesn't.
 

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But Zebstrika is all the way in C+... Electrode is stronger and faster and has Taunt which stops stall mons with recovery. And Overheat just leaves you as setup fodder and doesn't go well with Rain. Nobody is going to use Lumineon over Prinplup but that's why it's in D rank while Prinplup is almost top tier. A niche is worth a rank however small.
I disagree. We've recently purged our D Rank of all the mons that have an extremely faint niche in the NU meta and I think it would be bad practice to fill it back up again. Electrode serves no relevant niche over Liepard/Volbeat/Uxie aside from, what, Electric-STAB? I hardly see how that's relevant in a meta where we are over prepared for Electric-types. Rain teams have a very specific formula for a reason and I feel that if you're running Electrode, you're hindering yourself because of the opportunity cost of not running a superior setter like the ones mentioned before. Please keep Electrode unranked.
 
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