Landorus-I is a very unique pokemon. The special sets are incredibly dangerous because of Sheer Force + LO boosting their base power. Lando's got a great movepool and it can run a physical or special set, magnified by band, scarf, or life orb. Also, rock polish makes both sets even more dangerous by giving it +2 speed. Its strength/versatility gives users a great advantage over all archetypes due to Landorus having no true counters. It should be banned based on the aforementioned points, it's too versatile to prepare for and too strong to stop when given 1 free turn.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle
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So I'm currently in support of banning Landorus-i from OU, but with a few stated caveats and stipulations as to why.
Firstly, I think you can only really define the brokenness of a pokemon within a particular tier based on the metagame it's currently in. I really resent people recycling Gen 5 arguments about why they chose to ban Landorus, since ORAS is an entirely different metagame and should not be held to the standards of any previous metagame. This also comes into play when people say "we should ban Landorus-i because it's a potent offensive threat and ORAS has too many"; this line of logic relies on some mysterious premise that having a lot of offensive threats is suddenly unhealthy for competitive play, or that because there are relatively more threats in ORAS than DPP or BW OU, we should be concerned.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that Landorus should be judged based on: whether it promotes a spirit of fair and equal play between players, the extent to which its presence centralizes the OU tier, and the effect Landorus has on the metagame relative to its capabilities.
I think it is generally agreed upon by both sides that Landorus promotes a spirit of fair play; there is nothing surrounding its use that affects competition between both players (e.g. Swagger, endless battles, etc). Whether Landorus makes the game equal for both players, however, is a bit blurry. Surely both sides are free to use Landorus, and given that it is fair, a player does not have to play around an opponent's Landorus in any extraordinary or unreasonable way. Scouting something's movepool and making double switches is nothing new or unique. Where Landorus may be deemed unequal, however, is in the extreme utility a player gains by running Landorus as opposed to a player who does not. Given that it has the tools and capabilities to be tailor made for success against any playstyle (less-so against offense, but nonetheless), there is a significant opportunity cost when opting not to use Landorus, and the momentum of a battle shifts significantly in the Landorus user's favor upon successfully sending it into battle. This inequality stems from the immense power and spammability of Landorus' main STAB - LO SF Earth Power, and the additional boost for all of its coverage moves which makes the performance of these double-switches and scouting measures incredibly more difficult than one would consider reasonable.
Taking all this into account, when we observe the current ORAS OU metagame, we generally see a trend towards bulkier balance and bulky offensive teams, most of which are heavily pressured by Landorus. This is crucial because, for instance, the earliest stages of XY OU allowed many other fast, powerful offensive threats like Deo-S, Greninja, Mega Lucario, etc. that made Landorus far less useful and relevant. Additionally, Landorus-T has since been "replaced" by Tank Garchomp as the bulky birdspam-check and SR setter of choice for many players. In this way, usage stats can be more useful, because while it is rather obvious that human irrationality and inexperienced players can skew which pokemon are used more and deemed "better" than others, Landorus has a unique problem in that it cannot be used alongside Landorus-T. To me, it seems like the decline in Landorus-T coincided very closely with the increased concerns about Landorus' effect on the current ORAS OU metagame. That, in conjunction with the shift towards generally "fatter" team archetypes makes Landorus all the more threatening - the metagame has shifted to one that heavily favors the wallbreaking power Landorus provides. Knock Off's buff is also extremely relevant to this suspect, as without Knock Off, Landorus is back to relying on U-turn, a sub-par option in my opinion, to beat Lati@s, Gengar and Chansey which otherwise check it well.
I'm going through this explanation so painstakingly slowly because I really dislike some of the arguments that other pro-ban users are trying to pass off as legitimate. Just saying "look at all the moves it can run!!!" isn't just a bad argument - it's an incomplete one. Tornadus-Therian is honestly one of many examples of a fast, reasonably strong offensive LO sweeper that can run a handful of coverage moves. However, no one is going on about how we need to ban Tornadus-T. Additionally, do not just say "Landorus has 115 Special attack, 125 Attack, is really stronk" because we can increasingly see that stats alone are a poor indicator of how much damage something deals. Greninja only had 103 SpA and never even ran a +SpA nature, yet it hit extremely hard.
What pro-ban should be stressing instead is the uniqueness of Landorus' tools as an offensive sweeper + wallbreaker: that Life Orb + Sheer Force + Spammable STAB/coverage deals far too much damage for most walls on bulkier teams, which constitute a large majority of common teams in ORAS, forcing these teams to run one of three viable checks in Mega Latias, AV Tornadus-T and Cresselia. Stop debating whether or not Cress or Mega Latias are good or bad; it is a horrible point that persuades no one and is subjective to you alone. Play on the ladder and actually illustrate to anti-ban users why Landorus' absence improves teambuilding options for these balance teams. Taking it on faith that we're better off without Landorus is just educated guessing until you see it definitively.
So, given Landorus' uniquely excessive power, restrictiveness on teambuilding and availability of better coverage than it has ever had before (in Knock Off, primarily), I am currently leaning towards banning Landorus-i from OU.
Firstly, I think you can only really define the brokenness of a pokemon within a particular tier based on the metagame it's currently in. I really resent people recycling Gen 5 arguments about why they chose to ban Landorus, since ORAS is an entirely different metagame and should not be held to the standards of any previous metagame. This also comes into play when people say "we should ban Landorus-i because it's a potent offensive threat and ORAS has too many"; this line of logic relies on some mysterious premise that having a lot of offensive threats is suddenly unhealthy for competitive play, or that because there are relatively more threats in ORAS than DPP or BW OU, we should be concerned.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that Landorus should be judged based on: whether it promotes a spirit of fair and equal play between players, the extent to which its presence centralizes the OU tier, and the effect Landorus has on the metagame relative to its capabilities.
I think it is generally agreed upon by both sides that Landorus promotes a spirit of fair play; there is nothing surrounding its use that affects competition between both players (e.g. Swagger, endless battles, etc). Whether Landorus makes the game equal for both players, however, is a bit blurry. Surely both sides are free to use Landorus, and given that it is fair, a player does not have to play around an opponent's Landorus in any extraordinary or unreasonable way. Scouting something's movepool and making double switches is nothing new or unique. Where Landorus may be deemed unequal, however, is in the extreme utility a player gains by running Landorus as opposed to a player who does not. Given that it has the tools and capabilities to be tailor made for success against any playstyle (less-so against offense, but nonetheless), there is a significant opportunity cost when opting not to use Landorus, and the momentum of a battle shifts significantly in the Landorus user's favor upon successfully sending it into battle. This inequality stems from the immense power and spammability of Landorus' main STAB - LO SF Earth Power, and the additional boost for all of its coverage moves which makes the performance of these double-switches and scouting measures incredibly more difficult than one would consider reasonable.
Taking all this into account, when we observe the current ORAS OU metagame, we generally see a trend towards bulkier balance and bulky offensive teams, most of which are heavily pressured by Landorus. This is crucial because, for instance, the earliest stages of XY OU allowed many other fast, powerful offensive threats like Deo-S, Greninja, Mega Lucario, etc. that made Landorus far less useful and relevant. Additionally, Landorus-T has since been "replaced" by Tank Garchomp as the bulky birdspam-check and SR setter of choice for many players. In this way, usage stats can be more useful, because while it is rather obvious that human irrationality and inexperienced players can skew which pokemon are used more and deemed "better" than others, Landorus has a unique problem in that it cannot be used alongside Landorus-T. To me, it seems like the decline in Landorus-T coincided very closely with the increased concerns about Landorus' effect on the current ORAS OU metagame. That, in conjunction with the shift towards generally "fatter" team archetypes makes Landorus all the more threatening - the metagame has shifted to one that heavily favors the wallbreaking power Landorus provides. Knock Off's buff is also extremely relevant to this suspect, as without Knock Off, Landorus is back to relying on U-turn, a sub-par option in my opinion, to beat Lati@s, Gengar and Chansey which otherwise check it well.
I'm going through this explanation so painstakingly slowly because I really dislike some of the arguments that other pro-ban users are trying to pass off as legitimate. Just saying "look at all the moves it can run!!!" isn't just a bad argument - it's an incomplete one. Tornadus-Therian is honestly one of many examples of a fast, reasonably strong offensive LO sweeper that can run a handful of coverage moves. However, no one is going on about how we need to ban Tornadus-T. Additionally, do not just say "Landorus has 115 Special attack, 125 Attack, is really stronk" because we can increasingly see that stats alone are a poor indicator of how much damage something deals. Greninja only had 103 SpA and never even ran a +SpA nature, yet it hit extremely hard.
What pro-ban should be stressing instead is the uniqueness of Landorus' tools as an offensive sweeper + wallbreaker: that Life Orb + Sheer Force + Spammable STAB/coverage deals far too much damage for most walls on bulkier teams, which constitute a large majority of common teams in ORAS, forcing these teams to run one of three viable checks in Mega Latias, AV Tornadus-T and Cresselia. Stop debating whether or not Cress or Mega Latias are good or bad; it is a horrible point that persuades no one and is subjective to you alone. Play on the ladder and actually illustrate to anti-ban users why Landorus' absence improves teambuilding options for these balance teams. Taking it on faith that we're better off without Landorus is just educated guessing until you see it definitively.
So, given Landorus' uniquely excessive power, restrictiveness on teambuilding and availability of better coverage than it has ever had before (in Knock Off, primarily), I am currently leaning towards banning Landorus-i from OU.
On the topic of "Oh no with Landorus being gone its gonna open the way to unbreakable balance cores";
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This sentence could not be more wrong and only goes to show the speaker's ignorance of the current meta. This is a meta where SuperWallbreakers like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy and Mega Heracross exist. these pokemon have literally no trouble blasting apart balance cores. Not to mention other Balance breakers like Gengar, Grass knot Mega Metagross and Kyurem-Black. Balance is almost nonexistent on ladder because of all the cards stacked against it, and how restrictive teambuilding balance is. Landorus I just compounds this already existent problem.
Another ignorant antiban point is 4MSS.
4 move set syndrome means that a pokemon needs more than 4 moves to be effective. Take for example Lucario or XY metagross. They needed a 5th move to be effective in the meta. for example, Lucario wants SD, espeed, close combat, iron tail and ice punch. Landorus I is by no means whatsoever a victim of 4MSS. It does not need 5 moves to be effective in any regard. All of it's sets are incredibly efficient and dangerous to all playstyles. This is a pokemon who can freely change up it's moveslot to nail counters without losing any sort of effectiveness. If anything this just shows how disturbingly versatile and dangerous it is.
So please stop stating these as antiban points as they could not be more wrong. It's like the people who complained banning Mega Mawile or Aegislash would break a bunch of other things. That is incredibly ignorant, and if a singular pokemon is the only thing keeping another in check that just goes to show how completely garbage this meta is.
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This sentence could not be more wrong and only goes to show the speaker's ignorance of the current meta. This is a meta where SuperWallbreakers like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy and Mega Heracross exist. these pokemon have literally no trouble blasting apart balance cores. Not to mention other Balance breakers like Gengar, Grass knot Mega Metagross and Kyurem-Black. Balance is almost nonexistent on ladder because of all the cards stacked against it, and how restrictive teambuilding balance is. Landorus I just compounds this already existent problem.
Another ignorant antiban point is 4MSS.
4 move set syndrome means that a pokemon needs more than 4 moves to be effective. Take for example Lucario or XY metagross. They needed a 5th move to be effective in the meta. for example, Lucario wants SD, espeed, close combat, iron tail and ice punch. Landorus I is by no means whatsoever a victim of 4MSS. It does not need 5 moves to be effective in any regard. All of it's sets are incredibly efficient and dangerous to all playstyles. This is a pokemon who can freely change up it's moveslot to nail counters without losing any sort of effectiveness. If anything this just shows how disturbingly versatile and dangerous it is.
So please stop stating these as antiban points as they could not be more wrong. It's like the people who complained banning Mega Mawile or Aegislash would break a bunch of other things. That is incredibly ignorant, and if a singular pokemon is the only thing keeping another in check that just goes to show how completely garbage this meta is.
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I usually don't make posts on here, but I feel the need to on this one. There is no way we need to ban this mon. Seriously. There are so many checks to it, and so many OU pokes that outspeed it. I'm sure the fact that ou decided to drop a counter and a check to Lando (FrozenPork and Eggbird Sr., respectively) brought about this issue, but there are still so many mons that can stop it. Like I said, 101 speed isn't earth-shattering (pun), and between Lati@s, thundy, tornad, raikou, gengar, keldeo, most megas, etc etc, there is no way this poke sweeps anyways without a boost.
And even it it manages to set up a rock polish (which is already hard with its mediocre defense, even worse if you include a physical attack), it loses out on a coverage move, meaning that after Earth Power, it has to chose 2 of sludge wave, psychic, hp ice, hp flying (works better than you'd think), focus miss, knock off and rock slide. Sure, the opponent is likely to lose a pokemon in the process is stopping lando and knowing what moves it has, but thats the case with set-up sweepers anyways. (Show me the +2 Talonflame counter). And honestly, any sweeper that might have to rely on focus miss should not be deemed broken without second thought; that accuracy is brutal.
I get that there are no true counters to lando (aside from the ever-so-popularSoul Dew Mega Lati@s), but its not like players are building teams with the thought of pokemon that can stop lando-I. Lando-T maybe, but not the one getting suspected today. Greninja suspect is a great comparison in some ways, but the thing is, nothing relevant outsped it, and literally only chansey was a true counter. But no one likes that fat blob. This mon is different though. Although it has the ability to run those physical moves, a smart player can usually tell by the makeup of the team what counter is truly safe (i.e. Lati@s if the opponent has TTar). Most Lando's just don't run the physical moves, even if they can; it takes up a valuable moveslot that could've killed the conkeldurr/venusaur or the gardevior/sylveon or the lando-T/Gliscor.
Partially unrelated but not really, if this mon does make it to Ubers, it could actually be somewhat viable, unlike Greninja. Earth Power, HP ice, and sludge wave kill the 3 most prevalent ubers threats (PGroudon, MSalamence, Xern) before boosts. Just enough defense to live a STAB Espeed after rocks and kill with focus blast. Pretty neat.
And even it it manages to set up a rock polish (which is already hard with its mediocre defense, even worse if you include a physical attack), it loses out on a coverage move, meaning that after Earth Power, it has to chose 2 of sludge wave, psychic, hp ice, hp flying (works better than you'd think), focus miss, knock off and rock slide. Sure, the opponent is likely to lose a pokemon in the process is stopping lando and knowing what moves it has, but thats the case with set-up sweepers anyways. (Show me the +2 Talonflame counter). And honestly, any sweeper that might have to rely on focus miss should not be deemed broken without second thought; that accuracy is brutal.
I get that there are no true counters to lando (aside from the ever-so-popular
Partially unrelated but not really, if this mon does make it to Ubers, it could actually be somewhat viable, unlike Greninja. Earth Power, HP ice, and sludge wave kill the 3 most prevalent ubers threats (PGroudon, MSalamence, Xern) before boosts. Just enough defense to live a STAB Espeed after rocks and kill with focus blast. Pretty neat.
How good a mon is in ubers is pointless when discussing OU suspects.
I'm pro-ban on this one, it just dismantles fatter cores with so much ease that it isn't even funny, and it can basically get at least a kill vs offense as well thanks to its decent speed tier as well as Rock Polish.
I'm pro-ban on this one, it just dismantles fatter cores with so much ease that it isn't even funny, and it can basically get at least a kill vs offense as well thanks to its decent speed tier as well as Rock Polish.
I wasn't try to make a point with that, it was just a small blurb on it for fun. I figured I made my point fairly clear in the preceding paragraphs, whether or not you agree with it.
I know, but it's something that's come up all of the previous few suspects, so I was trying to nip that in the bud.
And I do disagree, people do build teams that are designed to deal with lando-i. It's just so strong that even that wont work against it if it's paired with something like a bisharp (the only two counters are very pursuit weak).
And I do disagree, people do build teams that are designed to deal with lando-i. It's just so strong that even that wont work against it if it's paired with something like a bisharp (the only two counters are very pursuit weak).
I mean, it is easy to outspeed Lando/hit it w/ priority, but people are really underselling its bulk here. It's actually not incredibly easy to take out Lando without a super effective move as some people make it out to be. I mean, it can take an Aqua Jet from AV Azumarill so it's not even that easy to revenge kill. Using priority on the switch is also a huge momentum sucker for offensive teams, moreso when it actually can't even KO. It's SR-neutral and Spikes-immune, so it can come in repeatedly and fire off Earth Powers (or Rock Slide for Torn-T, it's pretty versatile in this regard). A lot of common 'mons threaten it but it can still beat mons like unboosted Clefable, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross (provided it's at sufficient health mega meta can't threaten the OHKO), Bisharp, non-ScarfTran, Ferrothorn and so on. That's a sufficient enough list for it to absolutely demolish teams. It's pretty obvious how Lando has like only Cress and Mega Lati as full counters, so I won't get into that. I'm not sure whether I'll ladder for this since my opinion isn't that strong and I might vary here, plus i'm lazy hehe, but yeah atm I'm leaning on ban.
So as any level headed player would know, lando-I is hella broken. However, I still want it to stay in OU for one very simple reason: it discourages stall and just generally really fat teams. I'm sure plenty of people know this, but high ladder has been dominated by stall so often in generation 6 and it is just boring to have to sit through matches for 45 mins or an hour on a consistent basis and just makes players want to ladder less. Sure there are other things that can beat stall (looking at you, mew), but just the general presence of landorus-I in the tier makes people think twice about using stall in a way that other mons such as mew don't. Just some food for thought.
There won't be a loss of wallbreakers/stallbreakers should Lando-I leave the tier. There's actually a rather ridiculous amount of them right now; M-Garde, M-Chary and Kyub to name a few. As has been stated, this is a rather fallicious argument as it implies Lando-I is the only thing keeping Stall from being broken.
I don't get why you are trying to sympathize with the "level headed" option, but then go with the opposing side, just doesn't seem logical. Also your argument for keeping it was dreadful, wanting to make a play style less viable because you believe it's less compative or fun to play against doesn't mean anything and is just a biased opinion of yours. The only things you've managed to do, is show how limiting Landorus is, in that certain play styles loses viability, which in turn makes the meta less diverse and fair as a whole.
Every single time i read through pro ban arguments in a suspect test i cant fight the feeling that some, if not most people here are somewhat stuck in Gen 3. Big News but the time of having foolproof counters for everything is long gone and wont come back.
The ability to work around or outright break its counters with the right move/set is something that defines high rank threats in Gen 6. Almost every top rank threat has it. The argument "it has no save counters" can be applied to so many mons in the meta. Altaria, Keldeo, Metagross, Zard X, Zard Y, Kyruem-Black, CB Azumarill, Mega Garchomp, LO Hydreigon, Gardevoir, Heracross. All of these dont have save switch ins to begin with or can run coverage moves to beat them if they want to. Even more if we take teamsupport options like pursuit trapping into consideration. Lando-I isnt the only thing that loves having a pursuit trapper removing most of its counters, its the same for Keldeo and Zardy. Should we ban them as well?
"It has no save counters" is NOT a valid reason to ban something so stop using it all the time. The question that should be answered here is: "Is Lando harder to deal with in practise than all the other wallbreakers and if so, is the difference big enough to make him ban worthy". I think we can all agree on the first point, yes he is harder to deal with than most of the other mons mentioned above though some of them come really close/are on par with him. That leaves us with the second point and personally i am really not sure about that. If we take Metagross as a basis and assume he is not banworthy its questionable if Lando is because i honestly feel that meta is easily just as dangerous and unlike Lando his viability isnt so dependent on the meta. If the meta starts shifting more towards offense in the next weeks/months Lando will most likely even drop back into A+ like he did before and any thoughts about banworthyness will disappear.
The ability to work around or outright break its counters with the right move/set is something that defines high rank threats in Gen 6. Almost every top rank threat has it. The argument "it has no save counters" can be applied to so many mons in the meta. Altaria, Keldeo, Metagross, Zard X, Zard Y, Kyruem-Black, CB Azumarill, Mega Garchomp, LO Hydreigon, Gardevoir, Heracross. All of these dont have save switch ins to begin with or can run coverage moves to beat them if they want to. Even more if we take teamsupport options like pursuit trapping into consideration. Lando-I isnt the only thing that loves having a pursuit trapper removing most of its counters, its the same for Keldeo and Zardy. Should we ban them as well?
"It has no save counters" is NOT a valid reason to ban something so stop using it all the time. The question that should be answered here is: "Is Lando harder to deal with in practise than all the other wallbreakers and if so, is the difference big enough to make him ban worthy". I think we can all agree on the first point, yes he is harder to deal with than most of the other mons mentioned above though some of them come really close/are on par with him. That leaves us with the second point and personally i am really not sure about that. If we take Metagross as a basis and assume he is not banworthy its questionable if Lando is because i honestly feel that meta is easily just as dangerous and unlike Lando his viability isnt so dependent on the meta. If the meta starts shifting more towards offense in the next weeks/months Lando will most likely even drop back into A+ like he did before and any thoughts about banworthyness will disappear.
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Landorus Incarnate is an extremely broken mon and frankly I'm shocked it wasn't tested months ago. It has little to none reliable counters almost all of which can be beat with some coverage such as knock off and stone edge. Any counters to the common sets are usually obscure and unreliable mons in the current meta such as av slowing, cress, sdef mandi. It has ridiculous versatility with sets breaking offense, balanced, and stall. It also isn't exactly lacking in the bulk area and all this combined with how hard it nukes due to sheer force and speed boosting and attack boosting capabilities is why in my opinion it has to go! BAN!
I like facing stall as much as you do, but it is a viable playstyle and far from uncompetitive. Wanting to keep something in the tier just because you don't like facing stall is simply immature. That's like asking to bring Primal Groudon into OU because you hate facing rain teams (I realize nobody would ever be stupid enough to say that but it does make a point). If Landorus-I is broken, then it should be banned. Broken pokemon aren't kept in the tier keep other things in check.
What's wrong with populating on stall?, don't they realize that stall has to keep several safe switch in thresholds to keep? It is in my opinion the harder playstyle to pull off in ORAS given the ever prominent threath of amazing wallbreaker running around, Lando I being the one with less cost effectiveness yet reaping the highest rewards due to not being hazard weak, having 2 switch in opportunities against electric and ground and have just enough options to deal with what it needs to while not being a mega. I'm a predominantly bulky offense player, I either pick between manaphy or Lando I depending on my flavor of the week pokemon to shut stall down, Landorus has way to many boons to its belt to be honest, predominantly rock polish shutting HO, seriously these anti ban arguments are making me go full ban side myself as they end up showing how much Lando I affects the metagame.
So honestly why are people so biased against stall when it's actually so hard to pull of on the current meta shifts? It honestly beats me.
So honestly why are people so biased against stall when it's actually so hard to pull of on the current meta shifts? It honestly beats me.
I mean the only problem I see with the whole Landorus I "destroys HO" with it's RP set is that Landorus isn't really setting up on Hyper offense. Lando isn't frail but he's not bulky either, and with all the powerful wallbreakers like Keldeo, Kyu-B, and others along with Ice being a very common type on offense, I just don't see it. I've played against Lando countless times, and I tend to play offense/bulky offense the majority of the time. Stall definitely has problems with Lando, but offense? I just don't think 100 speed is enough without a boost, and that boost is hard to come by. Personally I think Lando is not ban worthy, it's a great wallbreaker sure, but so is Kyurem B and neither are too threatening to offense.
I am pro BAN for Landorus-I
But before I explain that, let me list of the attacking moves for Lando-I that are commonly used/deserve a mention
-Earth Power, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Psychic, Rock Slide, Sludge Wave (Sorry if I missed one or two)
Along with Sheer Force + Life Orb this coverage is incredible. Granted moves like Psychic don't really see a whole lot of use but the pure power of Landorus-I is insane.
Some calcs to show its power w/ standard max SpA Sheer Force + Life Orb Lando-I
I could calc vs every OU viable mon and get a 2hko or more vs over 90% of them. This thing is a savage. I'm not trying to imply that if something has good coverage then it's ban worthy but for a mon like Landorus which can take advantage of the incredible movepool it has with Sheer Force + Life Orb and can set up with Rock Polish and proceed to sweep teams, it's one reason why Landorus is ban worthy.
To all the people out there saying things like 'having no foolproof counters is not a solid ban argument' and 'having incredible coverage doesn't make it bannable'
One of these reasons alone, no. But when you combine these together and with things like Rock Polish - allowing it to outspeed pretty much every mon in the tier, the fact that most teams now are more bulky than they once were making them even more prone to getting 'rekt' by landorus and things like Sheer Force + Life Orb boost make it unique and an extremely hard hitting mon that has become very difficult if not borderline impossible to deal with.
And in the hopes that one of these people who may post something like 'But you can use it too' reads this, please don't use this as an anti-ban argument. I could say the same thing about Mega Rayquaza, imagine how OU would play out with that in.
But before I explain that, let me list of the attacking moves for Lando-I that are commonly used/deserve a mention
-Earth Power, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Psychic, Rock Slide, Sludge Wave (Sorry if I missed one or two)
Along with Sheer Force + Life Orb this coverage is incredible. Granted moves like Psychic don't really see a whole lot of use but the pure power of Landorus-I is insane.
Some calcs to show its power w/ standard max SpA Sheer Force + Life Orb Lando-I
Sorry if any spreads are off a little off or outdated, with this many calcs I used the suggested calc spread for some
Earth Power:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 416-494 (138.2 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 259-305 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 235-278 (86.7 - 102.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 183-216 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 261-308 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 291-343 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 421-499 (131.9 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 380-447 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Knock Off:
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 333-393 (128.5 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rock Slide:
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 588-697 (179.8 - 213.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 541-640 (182.1 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Aerodactyl: 296-351 (98.3 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Sludge Wave:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 408-481 (107.3 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 309-367 (87.2 - 103.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Earth Power:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 416-494 (138.2 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 259-305 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 235-278 (86.7 - 102.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 183-216 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 261-308 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 291-343 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 421-499 (131.9 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 380-447 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Knock Off:
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 333-393 (128.5 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rock Slide:
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 588-697 (179.8 - 213.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 541-640 (182.1 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Aerodactyl: 296-351 (98.3 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Sludge Wave:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 408-481 (107.3 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 309-367 (87.2 - 103.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I could calc vs every OU viable mon and get a 2hko or more vs over 90% of them. This thing is a savage. I'm not trying to imply that if something has good coverage then it's ban worthy but for a mon like Landorus which can take advantage of the incredible movepool it has with Sheer Force + Life Orb and can set up with Rock Polish and proceed to sweep teams, it's one reason why Landorus is ban worthy.
To all the people out there saying things like 'having no foolproof counters is not a solid ban argument' and 'having incredible coverage doesn't make it bannable'
One of these reasons alone, no. But when you combine these together and with things like Rock Polish - allowing it to outspeed pretty much every mon in the tier, the fact that most teams now are more bulky than they once were making them even more prone to getting 'rekt' by landorus and things like Sheer Force + Life Orb boost make it unique and an extremely hard hitting mon that has become very difficult if not borderline impossible to deal with.
And in the hopes that one of these people who may post something like 'But you can use it too' reads this, please don't use this as an anti-ban argument. I could say the same thing about Mega Rayquaza, imagine how OU would play out with that in.
I hate to just echo what other people are saying, but I wanna see this thing banned. It has great power thanks to Life Orb and Sheer Force and diverse coverage consisting of gems like Knock Off, HP Ice, Psychic, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast and U-Turn, not to mention that trollish base 101 speed which outpaces stuff like Zard and Gardevoir. It has the tools to dismantle any playstyle - an all-out attacker set to thwart standard balance (since it has very few safe switchins on this playstyle), Rock Polish to beat offense and outspeed weather sweepers and Calm Mind to wreck stall. Landorus' only real flaws are its not quite good enough speed, mediocre bulk and weaknesses to common types, but honestly its pros heavily outweigh its cons. Overall, I think its fantastic power and movepool, lack of counters and ability to easily adapt to changes in the meta make Landorus worthy of a ban.
Eh I still feel like what many of the pro ban arguments are saying is that Landorus is very good and versatile. However I don't think that is enough for it to be banned. Can't a Pokemon be powerful and unpredictable while still being fair? Like you have said it has flaws and the pros do outweigh the cons, but that doesn't seem good enough to ban it. Top tier threat? Yes, ban worthy? I think not, and only because I don't think it is over centralizing, just very powerful.
The problem with Landorus is that it's too powerful and unpredictable. I mean, sure that's a plausible thing, having something being not only powerful and competitive, kinda reminds me of Altaria, but Landorus doesn't really fit into that category. Having quite literally 2 complete switch ins that can /maybe/ counter it depending on its set, Cresselia and Mega Latias, that are hard to fit on most playstyles and having more sets than you can count on one hand is what pushes Landorus over the edge. Its coverage leaves pretty much noting uncovered. You've probably seen the disgusting calcs as well, anything and everything is going to be taking a huge chunk from one of its attacks.
The thing you said about not being over centralizing is a bit wrong. Every single team has to be ready for it and it has to have some sort of answer to it. That's why Pokemon such as Weavile and Cresselia are even relevant (Or in Weavile's case, the reason it was even noticed in the first place). Some teams even think they're prepared for the Rock Polish set, but just end up getting swept by the Calm Mind set. I mean, it's not as common as a Pokemon like Metagross, Clefable or Keldeo or anything, but usage doesn't equal viability, and if you aren't ready for it, you lose, fair and simple. It's extremely over-centralizing.
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I will go ignoring the fact that you are already trying to discredit anti-ban side caricaturing their agruments, I could do the same by just shitposting "LOL pro-ban side are so weak they just wanna ban a mon they can't kill while it's easy as fuck" but I won't
Poeple are talking about 4 MSS because Landorus-I actually needs to make a choice to kill his checks/counters :
Latias-Mega : Landorus-I has no way to win 1v1.
Cresselia : same as above.
Mandibuzz : same as above.
Lati@s : Landorus-I needs U-Turn / Knock Off.
Zapdos : Landorus-I needs Rock Slide.
sDef Talonflame : same as above.
sDef Charizard-Y : same as above.
sDef Gyarados : same as above.
AV Tornadus-T : same as above.
Gengar : Landorus-I needs Psychic / Knock Off.
If you take into account Landorus-I always run Earth Power / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave, you see there is a 4MSS.
I know team support required to beat them is pretty small (scarftar beat a lot of them for example), but these mons also have team support, so "SR weakness" is not a good point imo.
And anyway, if you ban a mon because it is able to beat his checks/counters, then you have to ban every dragoons and even more.
Moreover, Landorus-I is "slow", 101 BS speed isnt huge, it's outspeed'd by a plethora or threats in the metagame (Manectric, Lopunny, Thundurus, Keldeo,...), and it's not mentioning all the priority users (Azumarill, Scizor, Weavile,...) if you are concerned by RP.
All in all, to me Landorus-I just seems to be a pretty good mon for Offensive team, like Greninja was, without the speed tiers that made made Greninja broken.
I do get certain points of your argument, but there is one large problem. You can't just assume it runs those three moves. I'll give you Earth Power, since it is the only move that will be on every Landorus, but the other two are customizable. There are perfectly good sets that forgo Focus Blast and Sludge Wave for other options like the ones you listed. If Landorus has teammates that beat the mons it needs Sludge Wave and Focus Blast for, it can easily choose other moves like Rock Slide and Knock Off.
Yes, i am being somewhat bias toward anti-ban and am at fault for that, it's a reaction triggered by wading the shitstorm that is OU chat, and unfair to a lot of people. oops i guess. (not really, as a baton pass player i have no concern for the emotions of others). anyway, the real problem here is thats not what 4MSS means. 4MSS means it needs 4 moves to be effective. Landorus I could take 3 moves and still be effective, and the fact that he has other moves to deal with his counters is the issue. If charizard x suddenly got wood hammer, and could just randomly run them to murder hippowdon or slowbro and the opponent and suddenly kill one of them with no precedent other than "oh well i guess heatran now works". The fact that it has the moves to beat these pokemon IS the issue, even if he can't run them all. an opponent's moveset is barely predictable, and to randomly lose a pokemon, putting you at a free disadvantage is bullshit. also it's fair to note that neither tflame nor banded azumarill (i'm not joking) can OHKO landorus i with aqua jet. although weavile does it no contest.
This is very similar to the arguments against Greninja and Aegislash, in that both of them had an incredible degree of control in which Pokemon C&C them. Whether your check can beat any of those is not up to you, it is up to the opponent.
Yeah I'll agree with you that I may have been underestimating Landorus I's power. It's definitely hard to switch in to and I agree with the Weavile point and the point on creseelia/mega Latias being hard to fit in. Lando definitely does insane damage to things it shouldn't and your reply was well formed and worded btw. I'm not totally sold on a ban quite yet, but you do make a valid argument which makes me reconsider.
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