np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[firehusky]

252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lol you realize that calc actually makes lando look bulky...

It's a 130 BP move with STAB, a boosting nature, coming off of a decent base 110 special attack against a mon with a negative nature. And after stealth rock. And it's not even a guaranteed OHKO.

And to people saying "lando 6-0ing balance is an exaggeration", "balance only struggles a bit against it": Landorus literally breaks balanced teams in half rofl. Almost all teams need to pack like 3-4 checks and counters just so you don't get stomped on by it. A big part of the reason why pokemon like tornadus-t and weavile are so good right now is because that they can handle landorus decently and revenge kill it. That just shows how overcentralizing landorus is.

So is Rock Slide / Outrage Landorus. Why can't other Pokemon run niche sets if Landorus can?

Rock slide landorus isn't a niche set, it's a great coverage move that hits mandibuzz, zapdos, gyarados, specially defensive talonflame, specially defensive zard y, and tornadus-t. Outrage landorus was a joke lol, it's a shit coverage move that no one runs. The point was just that it has a wide movepool to hit its counters.

 

[Shurtugal]

Rock Slide IS a niche because you have to sacrifice its bulk to run it, as well as another coverage move; Hidden Power Ice Gengar is niche but it's a decent coverage move that OHKOs Garchomp, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Landorus, so it has a niche in hitting "counters". If Gengar was suspect, I guarantee people would argue Hidden Power [Ice] allows it to run over these checks, thus making Gengar borked, in the same manner people say Rock Slide makes Landorus borked. Yes, it can run Rock Slide, and yes, Rock Slide can hit a portion of its checks and counters, but so does Gengar's Hidden Power [Ice]. Gengar sacrafices Taunt or Substitute or Will-O-Wisp to carry it, and that often leaves it less efficient to other matchups, in the same manner that running Rock Slide on Landorus does.

So we'll have to agree to disagree. HP Ice and Rock Slide have same niche uses, but they are still niches. As Knight of Cydonia put it, "all offensive pokemon look broken if every scenario you place it in is ideal and the opponent plays like they started yesterday."

You really can't spam earth power despite how strong it is. Quoting user prague kick "with potential coverage of Earth Power/Focus Blast/Sludge Wave/Psychic/Knock Off/Hidden Power Ice/U-Turn/Rock Slide it can 2hko almost every monster in the metagame"

I have to agree with this. It's such an exaggeration. You can't tell me that Rock Slide, to some form of extent, isn't niche. Landorus has so many other moves it could be running, and yes, Rock Slide has benefits to it, but other Pokemon can also run other moves that have a niche to them, can they not?

That was my point. If Landorus can carry Rock Slide and not be guilty of running a niche set, then why can't other Pokemon run other stuff and not be guilty of running a niche set? Stop with the double standards.

(Once again, how is it NOT easy to switch into a Pokemon who's only STAB move is Earth Power? There are a TON of 50-50 checks on this fact alone.)

This Is What You Sound Like

Hidden Power [Ice] Gengar isn't a niche set, it's a great coverage move that hits Gliscor, Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, physically defensive Hippowdon, and Dragonite. NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

edit: Nice use of ad hominem with that video + then not regarding my entire post with the Strawman fallacy. Truly remarkable, The Pizza Man. Did you even read this post? I address LandT, Gliscor, and everything HP Ice / Icy Wind beats and then pointed out why Rock Slide / Icy Winds are niche in the This Is What You Sound Like spoiler. Please learn to read and refrain from using argument fallacies because otherwise why even bother arguing lol

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Rock Slide IS a niche because you have to sacrifice its bulk to run it, as well as another coverage move

But seriously, how does forcing something to sacrifice a stat make it niche? By this logic stuff like Gunk Shot Greninja back when it was OU was niche and basically Kyurem-B in general are all niche, you are also completly ignoring the stuff that Rock Slide beats (Like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Gyrados, etc), same for HP Ice, your ignoring the stuff it beats (Like the Latis, other Landorus, Gliscor, etc)

Edit: Shurtugal that is pretty much what your post was saying, now granted I did focus to much on the stat thing but you need to consider that just because something can no longer beat something when it gives up coverage doesn't mean that option was niche, I will go back to my answer of Greninja back when it was OU, now sure stuff like Kube and Empoleon beat it when its not carrying Low Kick, but you are basically hoping that it does not have a certain coverage move in order to beat it, and if it happens to have it then surprise, your check is dead. Landorus is in a very similar situation, where if you decide to bring in something that is defeated by Psychic like Mega Venusaur hoping it doesn't have psychic and it turns out it does, guess what? It has it and Mega Venusaur is done. Lets keep in mind that Landorus also has 3 moveslots to fuck around with its checks like this here

 

[BKC]

hp ice gengar is retarded because it learns icy wind which happens to fuck with three of its biggest checks in scarftar tornadus-t and gliscor

continue!

 

[MZ]

Rock Slide IS a niche because you have to sacrifice its bulk to run it, as well as another coverage move; Hidden Power Ice Gengar is niche but it's a decent coverage move that OHKOs Garchomp, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Landorus, so it has a niche in hitting "counters". If Gengar was suspect, I guarantee people would argue Hidden Power [Ice] allows it to run over these checks, thus making Gengar borked, in the same manner people say Rock Slide makes Landorus borked. Yes, it can run Rock Slide, and yes, Rock Slide can hit a portion of its checks and counters, but so does Gengar's Hidden Power [Ice]. Gengar sacrafices Taunt or Substitute or Will-O-Wisp to carry it, and that often leaves it less efficient to other matchups, in the same manner that running Rock Slide on Landorus does.

So we'll have to agree to disagree. HP Ice and Rock Slide have same niche uses, but they are still niches. As Knight of Cydonia put it, "all offensive pokemon look broken if every scenario you place it in is ideal and the opponent plays like they started yesterday."



I have to agree with this. It's such an exaggeration. You can't tell me that Rock Slide, to some form of extent, isn't niche. Landorus has so many other moves it could be running, and yes, Rock Slide has benefits to it, but other Pokemon can also run other moves that have a niche to them, can they not?

That was my point. If Landorus can carry Rock Slide and not be guilty of running a niche set, then why can't other Pokemon run other stuff and not be guilty of running a niche set? Stop with the double standards.

(Once again, how is it NOT easy to switch into a Pokemon who's only STAB move is Earth Power? There are a TON of 50-50 checks on this fact alone.)

This Is What You Sound Like

Hidden Power [Ice] Gengar isn't a niche set, it's a great coverage move that hits Gliscor, Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, physically defensive Hippowdon, and Dragonite. NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

Icy wind actually has a main slot on the analysis. I get that it's only an example, but it perfectly proves the ban side's point. It's viable because it does everything you said it would. In the same way, rock slide is viable for hitting all the things that pizza man pointed out. You're basically saying "I think the move is dumb so ignore it as an argument for banning and btw Zapdos is a counter now". If we suspected manaphy would you be saying that we should ignore hp fire as a relevant move making Power Whip Ferrothorn a counter?

 

[Shurtugal]

I never said Icy Wind / HP Ice wasn't viable. It's the viability that makes it niche. Here is a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE POST YOU ARE QUOTING FROM: NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

Basically, Rock Slide and HP Ice are niche because, while they are not as amazing as some moves, they still have a niche use. The context of my post simply argues that if Landorus can run niche attacks like Rock Slide to run over its checks, why can't other Pokemon? I never said that proban COULDN'T argue Rock Slide viability, just that other Pokemon should also be able to argue niche sets or moves if Landorus could. (Understand the context of my arguments please.)

The proban side seems to AGREE that other Pokemon - like Gengar! - can run other moves to run over its checks; therefore, that actually helps the proOU side because there are now more checks / counters to Landorus that can be brought up or argued.

A good example of a check the proOU side can now argue to Landorus is Icy Wind Gengar, since it can come into Earth Power, making it a 50-50 switch, and then hit Landorus for the OHKO with Icy Wind even though Landorus normally lives Shadow Ball and retaliates with Psychic. So thank you. You have now made my arguments stronger.

 

[MZ]

I never said Icy Wind / HP Ice wasn't viable. It's the viability that makes it niche. Here is a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE POST YOU ARE QUOTING FROM: NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

Basically, Rock Slide and HP Ice are niche because, while they are not as amazing as some moves, they still have a niche use. The context of my post simply argues that if Landorus can run niche attacks like Rock Slide to run over its checks, why can't other Pokemon? I never said that proban COULDN'T argue Rock Slide viability, just that other Pokemon should also be able to argue niche sets or moves if Landorus could.

The proban side seems to AGREE that other Pokemon - like Gengar! - can run other moves to run over its checks; therefore, that actually helps the proOU side because there are now more checks / counters to Landorus that can be brought up or argued.

A good example of a check the proOU side can now argue to Landorus is Icy Wind Gengar, since it can come into Earth Power, making it a 50-50 switch, and then hit Landorus for the OHKO with Icy Wind even though Landorus normally lives Shadow Ball and retaliates with Psychic. So thank you. You have now made my arguments stronger.

But nobody was arguing that Gengar wasn't a check because it does carry icy wind (for landorus because it's so threatening and centralizing although not just him). And what pokemon other than gengar suddenly check landorus that didn't before? I really don't follow this logic at all, it's like you suddenly decided that Gengar is a check and it wasn't before, and now suddenly your arguments are better. I'd argue that this is still in landorus's favor because it can get past would be counters without losing what makes it good.

 

[quagback2qc]

Rock Slide IS a niche because you have to sacrifice its bulk to run it, as well as another coverage move; Hidden Power Ice Gengar is niche but it's a decent coverage move that OHKOs Garchomp, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Landorus, so it has a niche in hitting "counters".

I'm sorry, did you just mention all of these mons as "counters"? Gengar 2HKOes all of these mons with shadow ball except for SpDef Gliscor and Dragonite, which isn't 2HKO'ed by anything until after rocks are up. A counter means that each of the mons you listed has the ability to switch into Gengar and win every time, which none of these mons have. Yes, Icy Wind is a nice option, but it isn't nearly as necessary as you make it seem.
Calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 207-243 (64.8 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 172-203 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -without multiscale

 

[shiloh]

I never said Icy Wind / HP Ice wasn't viable. It's the viability that makes it niche. Here is a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE POST YOU ARE QUOTING FROM: NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

Basically, Rock Slide and HP Ice are niche because, while they are not as amazing as some moves, they still have a niche use. The context of my post simply argues that if Landorus can run niche attacks like Rock Slide to run over its checks, why can't other Pokemon? I never said that proban COULDN'T argue Rock Slide viability, just that other Pokemon should also be able to argue niche sets or moves if Landorus could. (Understand the context of my arguments please.)

The proban side seems to AGREE that other Pokemon - like Gengar! - can run other moves to run over its checks; therefore, that actually helps the proOU side because there are now more checks / counters to Landorus that can be brought up or argued.

A good example of a check the proOU side can now argue to Landorus is Icy Wind Gengar, since it can come into Earth Power, making it a 50-50 switch, and then hit Landorus for the OHKO with Icy Wind even though Landorus normally lives Shadow Ball and retaliates with Psychic. So thank you. You have now made my arguments stronger.

I do no think other people are saying pokemon can run niche moves, but there is a fine line where niche transforms into Gimmick. The fact of the matter is that Landorus can run Rock Slide to get by a multitude of would be checks and counters instead of countering one specific pokemon. Other pokemon can run niche moves, but a lot of times they are not as effective in removing as many checks and counters as Rock Slide and Knock Off are. Also when you bring up that Gengar creates a 50/50 for the Landorus user, it also creates one for the person using Gengar. The fact of the matter is Landorus is still extremely unpredictable with a multitude of ways to remove its checks and counters which makes it broken.

 

[mertyville]

Maybe we should shift the topic on something nobody addressed so far: a fully physical set or physical oriented mixed set (under sand).

Sand Force is really rare since Sheer Force sets are so much more threatening and splashable even under Sand, but I am centain that people underestimate it because Landaros-T does more damage outside of Sand + it is bulkier through Intimidate.
One does forget that Landorus has all those moves that make Landorus-T annoying: Swords Dance, U-Turn, Super Power, Stone Edge, considering that the first one would cost you one turn of sand but the main role would be to wallbreak anyways.
Also on centain situations it feels like Landorus-I does it job well, because you actually think what item you could use instead of manatory putting Life Orb on it.

For instants I found myself always luring opposing Landorus-T into my Scarfed Landorus being able to 2HKO it with HP Ice without investment or 2HKOing SpD Gliscor after Stealth Rocks.

 

[North Gate]

I never said Icy Wind / HP Ice wasn't viable. It's the viability that makes it niche. Here is a quote DIRECTLY FROM THE POST YOU ARE QUOTING FROM: NOTE: it's hitting the stray checks and counters that MAKES it niche - niche sets / moves are still viable, and it's hitting the oddball threats that makes a set or move niche - it's not as good as its normal moves, but still has a NICHE use; niche and gimmicks are not synonymous

Basically, Rock Slide and HP Ice are niche because, while they are not as amazing as some moves, they still have a niche use. The context of my post simply argues that if Landorus can run niche attacks like Rock Slide to run over its checks, why can't other Pokemon? I never said that proban COULDN'T argue Rock Slide viability, just that other Pokemon should also be able to argue niche sets or moves if Landorus could. (Understand the context of my arguments please.)

The proban side seems to AGREE that other Pokemon - like Gengar! - can run other moves to run over its checks; therefore, that actually helps the proOU side because there are now more checks / counters to Landorus that can be brought up or argued.

A good example of a check the proOU side can now argue to Landorus is Icy Wind Gengar, since it can come into Earth Power, making it a 50-50 switch, and then hit Landorus for the OHKO with Icy Wind even though Landorus normally lives Shadow Ball and retaliates with Psychic. So thank you. You have now made my arguments stronger.

The arguments you are making in the last part of your post is kind of stupid lol. Pointing out that Icy Wind Gengar is a check is legit, but most people don't run it anyway and even if they do it's probably for Landorus and other ground/flyings, and that kind of just tells me that Lando is pretty centralizing. You seem really salty and yes some people don't read and I get that but you don't need to go apeshit on proban side because this thread is pretty dumb sometimes, I get that. I even made a couple of mistakes and I'll admit to that but seriously stop grouping the proban side together and making us seem like we're all a bunch of fuckheads who don't know what the fuck we're doing.

Now that that little rant is over, the calcs from above we're VERY biased and shouldn't even be put into consideration. Latios Life Orb Draco Meteor with a Naive/Rash Nature? WHY THE HELL. No shit that'll OHKO. You have some pretty strong Pokemon there bub, Pokemon Landorus-I shouldn't bother to take hits from to begin with. Choice Band Azu Play Rough? The fact that it wasn't a complete chance to OHKO without rocks to begin with is pretty astonishing. What's next, we gonna calc Mega Medicham's Zen Headbutt and say that Landorus-I doesn't have at least semi decent bulk? Even if that's not the fuckin' reason it's getting suspected anyway. Lando-I can potentially be a threat to every playstyle with literal next to no opportunity cost in using it. The only opportunity cost is not being able to use Lando-T and that's pretty fucking stupid for a mon that can threaten all three playstyles. The only playstyle it doesn't do jackshit to is probably Rain, for obvious reasons. Anyone know why Weavile has been rising in usage? Because it can revenge kill Landorus-I, Icy Wind Gengar, same thing, it's centralizing the metagame around it, while not as much as certain 'mons that are already bedridden of, but still pretty centralizing. You told us we're overselling it but quite frankly you're underselling the potential in it. A Pokémon with only two hard counters and lots of soft checks that easily get taken down with a certain move is pretty dumb. Landorus can adapt to this metagame as esteemed user AM pointed out already. The thing about it's hard counters is even then, U-Turn Landorus can just pivot to a Pursuit trapper. There you go, more adaption. Landorus pretty much adapts to any check or counter you can muster up with your thinking skills with a certain move.

You want some more calcs that actually prove it's bulk? Fine. But seriously remember this, Lando-I isn't getting banned on it's hit-taking potential, so don't use switch ins as an argument.
Thank you.

calcs

+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 196-232 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 220-259 (68.9 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 225-265 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 250-295 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(forgot about rocks but didn't matter in those two posts, rocks are included from here on out)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 231-273 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 285-336 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 282-333 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 184-217 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 156-184 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 174-205 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (my bad)
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 243-286 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 219-258 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 213-252 (66.7 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 281-331 (88 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 207-243 (64.8 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 237-280 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 187-222 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 261-307 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 204-241 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 243-289 (76.1 - 90.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 208-247 (65.2 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 183-216 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 156-184 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 213-252 (66.7 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 237-280 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 246-291 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 274-324 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 130-154 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 270-318 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 211-249 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 198-234 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That's just through the A and S ranks, I didn't want to go further.

tl;dr Landorus is centralizing and people are underselling its bulk against neutral hits by providing inaccurate calcs with shit it shouldn't stay in on.

 

[Magis4Life]

Mean Mr Snorlax only used to calc to disprove "Lando-i sports solid 89/90/80 bulk that not only allows it to soak up even neutral hits and fire off powerful hits" claim. For all intents and purposes Kurona, that "was" the point in Magis4Life's post. The calcs merely prove that Land-I isn't "soaking up" any "neutral hits" with its "solid 89/90/80" bulk - and remember, if it runs Rock Slide, one of those defenses is now a negative nature, which only further dampers this "solid" bulk.

But yes. You are right. It should only be a side thing, as Land's bulk isn't akin to anything truly amazing, just more than what wallbreakers usually have (although Manaphy's bulk is much better).

So yes. Landorus can withstand a few neutral hits, but it can by no means switch into them, and not even always live them. The point of the calcs was to prove that Land isn't just beating a threat because it has a certain coverage move because these mons can still retaliate for some hard, neutral hitting attacks.

ALSO, while I'm making a post, can I just say: fuck all of you saying "lol thanks for the type matchup chart but we smart players will just make sure Land never takes ice / water attacks!!" because JUST BECAUSE you can PLAY AROUND its type weaknesses doesn't make Landorus ANY LESS WEAK TO THOSE TYPES. The point is that ice- and water- coverage attacks are common in OU and hit Landorus hard - just because you "aren't going to let Landorus take those attacks" doesn't mean it's ANY LESS WEAK TO THOSE MOVES ffs.

Switching Landorus out from taking an Ice Beam doesn't make Ice Beam any less supereffective against Landorus lol.

Also - I've found Landorus oddly suspectable to 50-50 pursuit traps. Like they'll switch out from CB Scizor's Bullet Punch only to eat a Pursuit that puts it into Talonflame's BB KO range late game, or Scarf Tar can 50-50 Ice Punch / Crunch / SEdge to Pursuit. Sure, Purusit doesn't KO, but any form of damage makes that "solid bulk" into solid garbage because any attack dealing 65% or more to Land can now OHKO.

Also, HOW IS SWITCHING INTO A POKEMON THAT RELIES ON EARTH POWER AS ITS MAIN STAB ATTACK hard to do? Yeah, it has other coverage moves, but anything with levitate / flying typing is now a 50-50 check ffs. (Also, if you wanna say Land has Outrage and Rock SLides, Gengar has HP Ice pls stay in to use your superb bulk to tank the Shadow Ball that isn't coming.)

My main point was that lando-i isnt as deadweight against offense as people are making it out to be. I will concede that I may have hyperbolized my statement though I never said that it could take some of the most powerful neutral hits in the metagame(which a few of the calcs shown it has quite a chance to tank a few of them such as diancie's moonblast and cb talons' s brave bird lol) but that it isn't just some glass cannon it is being made out to be. Furthermore it shouldn't switching in these mons in the first place. Like why would I switch in on serp or Talonflame??

 

[fyourblog]

Honestly, after playing multiple games, the meta just isn't better and arguable much worse. M-Sableye stall variations have increased tenfold and has basically pigeonholed teambuilding even worse than Lando-I did. Now you have to carry Manaphy or one of the other very few stallbreakers to even have a chance at beating these teams. If you guys want a stally meta then go ahead and vote ban, but I will 100% be voting no ban.

Also I'm dying laughing at the hypocrisy some of the above posters are using. The fact that I got laughed at for saying that Knock Off, Calm Mind, and Rock Slide Lando-I aren't as significant as the main RP set, yet people are trying to argue that Icy Wind Gengar is just "niche" is ridiculous. There are some good points brought up about Gengar here-- it has just as many counters as Lando-I does. Does that mean it deserves a ban? I guess it's only convenient to use usage in explaining viability when it's for YOUR argument.

 

[Magis4Life]

Honestly, after playing multiple games, the meta just isn't better and arguable much worse. M-Sableye stall variations have increased tenfold and has basically pigeonholed teambuilding even worse than Lando-I did. Now you have to carry Manaphy or one of the other very few stallbreakers to even have a chance at beating these teams. If you guys want a stally meta then go ahead and vote ban, but I will 100% be voting no ban.

Also I'm dying laughing at the hypocrisy some of the above posters are using. The fact that I got laughed at for saying that Knock Off, Calm Mind, and Rock Slide Lando-I aren't as significant as the main RP set, yet people are trying to argue that Icy Wind Gengar is just "niche" is ridiculous. There are some good points brought up about Gengar here-- it has just as many counters as Lando-I does. Does that mean it deserves a ban? I guess it's only convenient to use usage in explaining viability when it's for YOUR argument.

Your argument that the knock off, cm, and rock slide variants are not nearly as significant as rp (rp is certainly not landorus' s only viable or even main set) was based on the usage of said move. You essentially argued in previous statements that the usage of a set equates to viability of a set, which is simply not the case.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

I don't think Lando-I is the problem. I think we have a very uncentralized meta and that there are many threats that can 1 or 2hko most of the tier. What's next? We suspect Manaphy, and then Gengar, and then KyuB? No thanks.

This frustrating tier that we have now is because we have banned too much already. I don't want to continue the precedent that we just ban ban ban because we're bored.

 

[fyourblog]

Your argument that the knock off, cm, and rock slide variants are not nearly as significant as rp (rp is certainly not landorus' s only viable or even main set) was based on the usage of said move. You essentially argued in previous statements that the usage of a set equates to viability of a set, which is simply not the case.

No, I mean if you read any of arguments I refute the idea that usage = viability. Instead I state its one of the best indicators to what is viable. People argued against me claiming that even though Knock Off is low in usage, Lando must be banned because it can still use it and counter other threats. Then when the fact that Gengar has no counters because of Icy Wind came up, people started claiming that Gengar's using Icy Wind are "niche" and basically low in usage. The same argument I used for Lando. So what's stopping us from banning Gengar? It has no counters or really just as many as Lando does.

 

[astromund]

Honestly, after playing multiple games, the meta just isn't better and arguable much worse. M-Sableye stall variations have increased tenfold and has basically pigeonholed teambuilding even worse than Lando-I did. Now you have to carry Manaphy or one of the other very few stallbreakers to even have a chance at beating these teams. If you guys want a stally meta then go ahead and vote ban, but I will 100% be voting no ban.

I haven't had a chance to try the suspect ladder, but wouldn't this be a reason to suspect M-Sableye next instead of keeping Landorus around? If stall becomes that prevalent and restrictive post-Landorus, that's plenty of reason for an M-Sableye suspect to follow shortly. I agree with the sentiment behind your post but it's not a reason to keep Landorus in the tier.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

I haven't had a chance to try the suspect ladder, but wouldn't this be a reason to suspect M-Sableye next instead of keeping Landorus around? If stall becomes that prevalent and restrictive post-Landorus, that's plenty of reason for an M-Sableye suspect to follow shortly. I agree with the sentiment behind your post but it's not a reason to keep Landorus in the tier.

This was not my post that you quoted, but I made the same point, so I will give my perspective:

If we ban something, and that makes the meta WORSE than before, you don't just keep banning more things. You should ask yourself before you vote ban: is the meta game MORE FUN without this mon? Did I enjoy the suspect ladder more than regular OU? If not, don't ban.

 

[MZ]

No, I mean if you read any of arguments I refute the idea that usage = viability. Instead I state its one of the best indicators to what is viable. People argued against me claiming that even though Knock Off is low in usage, Lando must be banned because it can still use it and counter other threats. Then when the fact that Gengar has no counters because of Icy Wind came up, people started claiming that Gengar's using Icy Wind are "niche" and basically low in usage. The same argument I used for Lando. So what's stopping us from banning Gengar? It has no counters or really just as many as Lando does.

I think only one guy said Gengar using icy wind is niche, you can't call Lando-i a solid Gengar check because it may carry icy wind. The differences between Landorus and Gengar mostly stem from bulk and RP destruction. Landorus can actually take a few hits and not die to pretty much everything, which makes Gengar much easier to revenge kill. Landorus also has rock polish which makes it a much stronger cleaner. I mean there's probably more if you want to go into it, but those are the main differences. Landorus is more broken than shit like Manaphy, Gengar and KyuB because of the balance of bulk and speed and immediate power that it gets.

 

[Kurona]

This was not my post that you quoted, but I made the same point, so I will give my perspective:

If we ban something, and that makes the meta WORSE than before, you don't just keep banning more things. You should ask yourself before you vote ban: is the meta game MORE FUN without this mon? Did I enjoy the suspect ladder more than regular OU? If not, don't ban.

Well I mean; I kind of find basing this off the ladder very flawed because you get an incredibly minuscule view of what the meta might be, and that's before it even starts evolving. People were calling out M-Sable to be broken after Gren got kicked, and... then it turned out it wasn't even worthy of being S-rank and is honestly pretty easy to beat. Hell I don't even know where this is coming from; I've never used Lando in my life and I've always been able to beat Sableye teams pretty handily - SD Talon, Clefable - hell, any fairy ever - are easy checks/counters to it. If it's a worse meta on the ladder than before... well... yeah; of course it is. It's chaotic. There's no defined meta state yet at all; that takes a week or so to even get close to it. I'd say the biggest aid of the ladder is to get a feel of how less constrained teambuilding is more than anything.
And honestly I think we're fine the way we've been going with bans. Very few people would say the post gren ban meta was worse than pre-gren ban, and I doubt anyone thinks pre-mencite ban was better than post-mencite ban.
tl;dr - if the meta's worse then yeah lol ofc it is because there's no defined meta state so it's nothing but chaos and the way we've been going with bans is fine

 

[astromund]

This was not my post that you quoted, but I made the same point, so I will give my perspective:

If we ban something, and that makes the meta WORSE than before, you don't just keep banning more things. You should ask yourself before you vote ban: is the meta game MORE FUN without this mon? Did I enjoy the suspect ladder more than regular OU? If not, don't ban.

Why not? If a pokemon is recognized as too much of a strain on teambuilding, you should get rid of it to pursue a healthier meta. If you find something in the post-suspect meta that becomes an even bigger strain on teambuilding, you get rid of that for the same reasons. Broken checking broken has never been a sound argument for keeping something in the meta, and it never will be.

I'm not about to get into discussing whether or not Landorus warrants being banned on its own individual merits, but for those that are, these are important words to keep in mind.

 

[fyourblog]

I think only one guy said Gengar using icy wind is niche, you can't call Lando-i a solid Gengar check because it may carry icy wind. The differences between Landorus and Gengar mostly stem from bulk and RP destruction. Landorus can actually take a few hits and not die to pretty much everything, which makes Gengar much easier to revenge kill. Landorus also has rock polish which makes it a much stronger cleaner. I mean there's probably more if you want to go into it, but those are the main differences. Landorus is more broken than shit like Manaphy, Gengar and KyuB because of the balance of bulk and speed and immediate power that it gets.

I'm not arguing that Lando-I is a solid Gengar check, I'm arguing that Gengar has little to no checks in the current meta-- but that's not a reason to ban it. Also I'd argue that if you prepare your team for RP Lando, than it can be beaten. While Gengar can be easily revenge killed, Lando-I has a variety of checks that can revenge kill it as well in the meta.

 

[AM]

I'm not arguing that Lando-I is a solid Gengar check, I'm arguing that Gengar has little to no checks in the current meta-- but that's not a reason to ban it. Also I'd argue that if you prepare your team for RP Lando, than it can be beaten. While Gengar can be easily revenge killed, Lando-I has a variety of checks that can revenge kill it as well in the meta.

Can you please elaborate on these checks for me and how preparing for RP landorus somehow indicates you've prepped for Landorus + the cores associated with it? I simply have no clue as I'm clearly new to OU myself to not be aware of all of these checks to Landorus you so happen to be aware of.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

Well I mean; I kind of find basing this off the ladder very flawed because you get an incredibly minuscule view of what the meta might be, and that's before it even starts evolving. People were calling out M-Sable to be broken after Gren got kicked, and... then it turned out it wasn't even worthy of being S-rank and is honestly pretty easy to beat. Hell I don't even know where this is coming from; I've never used Lando in my life and I've always been able to beat Sableye teams pretty handily - SD Talon, Clefable - hell, any fairy ever - are easy checks/counters to it. If it's a worse meta on the ladder than before... well... yeah; of course it is. It's chaotic. There's no defined meta state yet at all; that takes a week or so to even get close to it. I'd say the biggest aid of the ladder is to get a feel of how less constrained teambuilding is more than anything.
And honestly I think we're fine the way we've been going with bans. Very few people would say the post gren ban meta was worse than pre-gren ban, and I doubt anyone thinks pre-mencite ban was better than post-mencite ban.
tl;dr - if the meta's worse then yeah lol ofc it is because there's no defined meta state so it's nothing but chaos and the way we've been going with bans is fine

I wasn't going to mention other bans, but if you want to go there, Aegislash is the biggest ban. It has led to a very de-centralized meta, and now it's impossible to prepare for all the threats. No matter what 6 mons you choose, there are many things that you will lose to, and you just have to accept that and pick what counters you. It takes the smart plays out of the game and you're in a situation where you have little control over the outcome after seeing the team preview. With Aegislash in the tier, yes he's going to be on many teams, but his very existence makes many niche threats unviable and it's easy to prepare for the smaller number of mons that exist, which leads to games that are decided by the plays, NOT by the team preview.

As for how this relates to Landorus: it's a philosophy. Landorus is a strong wall breaker, but there are many strong wall breakers who can take his place. Maybe none that can do exactly what he do, but the meta will adapt to those new ones and then we have another thread for those. In the meantime, the tier will be in a state of dysfunction because there are too many threats and we can't suspect them that quickly.

I don't see Sableye stall being very good just because Lando is gone. The meta is too offensive for that. I don't know where that came from.

 

[fyourblog]

Can you please elaborate on these checks for me and how preparing for RP landorus somehow indicates you've prepped for Landorus + the cores associated with it? I simply have no clue as I'm clearly new to OU myself to not be aware of all of these checks to Landorus you so happen to be aware of.

I know you're being sarcastic but sure. Things that can come in and revenge kill Lando-I contains a large part of the meta. Alakazam, Azumarill, Conk, Gengar, Gyarados, Keldeo, Kyurem, Both Latis, M-Lop, Raikou, Rotom-W, Skarm, Slowbro, Starmie, Talonflame, Torn-T, Thundurus-T, Scarf Tar, SpD Zapdos, Crawdaunt, Klefki, Pinsir, Thundurus, Victini, SpD Volc, Weavile.

If you've prepped your team for RP Lando, that means you've prepped your team for 50% of Lando's in the meta right now. When you include this long list of revenge killers and checks that can come in on Lando, you can work around the other 50% that aren't RP, "the cores associated with it", very easily.