Magneton Suspect Discussion Thread

[Deeerpz]

Even though I probably won't make reqs, I wanted to chime in on the discussion.
I agree with most of what Teddeh said. When Magneton dropped and I read the discussions about it, I thought the most broken thing ever since Season 2 SL/SL Lock/Heal Druid was upon us (COOL REFERENCE IDIOT). I built all of my teams accordingly, having at least 1 dedicated answer just to stop this beast. The amount of Torterras, Lanturns and Stunfisks you see on a regular basis on ladder shows that I wasn't the only person to do so.

In reality, concerning power, it turned out Magneton was a threat, but not exactly non-managable. You can prepare for it and you have to, but that can be said for other rank S Threats like Tauros or Sneasel aswell. Now what I think seperates Magneton from these threats is that you can't formulate a game plan around it unless you know what item and ability it is running. Tauros is always going to be a fast motherfucker with a bunch of coverage, and Sneasel is always going to do the same thing to you, it's just a question of wether it's banded or not. You are generally going to bring in the same mon on them, regardless of their set.

With Magneton, it's a different story. You cannot really formulate an elaborate game plan based on team preview, because it's always going to be a guessing game. You can take your chances and assume it's Specs Analytic, but depending on your team, if that assumption is wrong, you might very well lose enough pressure, momentum or generally leeway to win the game from there. Accordingly, you see loads of teams run more than just one dedicated answer to Magneton, because a misprediction can cost you the game.

I think the point of a suspect isn't neccessarily to ban things that are broken, but things that are unhealthy for the tier. While I feel Teddeh's statement about Magnetons actual strength is very accurate and that is has been overhyped a tad, I also feel like that it's raw power isn't what makes it so strong and unhealthy. It is the fact that dealing with Magneton is always going to be a game of chances, more so than with any other pokemon in NU at the moment.

Now I don't know if that's just me, but I prefer playing in an environment where well thought-out plays decide games, rather than the roll of a dice. I know predictions are a huge part of pokemon, but Magneton puts the amount of correct predictions needed on a whole new level, and that seems rather unhealthy for the NU meta game.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Specs set: Big powaa, wall breaker status. This has switch ins, more switch ins than CB sawk in my opinion and it makes people not click magnetons stabs since every team has a lanturn or a stunfisk sitting their ready to absorb the hit which makes people NEED to make the prediction the first time around in order to potentially break it later on in the game IF magneton gets enough switch in opportunities. People are overestimating the bulk of a non evio magneton set and in an ideal situation, you're not switching this thing in on anything since you want it to be able to live a hit potentially at some point to fire off a nuke. Also, people calcing the "modest specs analytic big power hp ground" to its counters, they're barely being 2 hit ko'd and the player switchin in their lanturn is easily able to pivot out to a pokemon that can avoid the hp ground if it needs to and can shift momentum for the opposition team. From that point on, it will get harder and harder to bring magneton in safely and will never end up clicking its main stab which is volt switch or t-bolt / flash cannon. So yes it has great wall breaking sets, but unless you're playing A) a team that doesn't prepare for this S rank threat or B) a player that can't tie his own shoelaces, you're going to lose momentum easily.

I would agree if Lanturn and Stunfisk weren't the only ones that can prevent Magneton from spamming its STAB moves.

Sure, Magneton user doesn't have a big advantage against teams that have these mons and it's down to mindgames with HP Ground, but without one of Stunfisk / Lanturn, Magneton easily bops the entire tier with a STAB move, including the frailer resists and Ground-types which mostly just die to Flash Cannon -- Electivire for example can only switch into Analytic Flash Cannon once while max SpDef Torterra takes like 90% min from 2 Flash Cannons. I don't see how this has more switch-ins than Sawk if you discount Lanturn and Stunfisk (which take 50 from HP Ground and have no recovery anyway, unlike a lot of Sawk's checks). You don't even have to predict much, it's just a matter of clicking the correct STAB and even if you predict wrongly, you can still do 40-50% off a resisted and their Flash Cannon / Tbolt switch-in is gone. For example Flash Cannon does 40-48% on Samurott, so it's not switching in again.

Sure Magneton can't switch into everything, but there definitely are Pokemon that Magneton can force out easily. For example against offensive teams you might find switch-in chances against something like a Garbodor, Uxie, Mega Audino, or Mesprit, or their SR setter if they happen to be using one of the few teams that don't have Stunfisk or Torterra. Base 70 Speed is good enough that Magneton can outrun defensive mons, and Magneton's bulky enough to punish defensive Pokemon that try and stay in and attack it.

Basically, Specs Magneton punishes teams without Lanturn or Stunfisk way too easily because it can just come in on a defensive poke, and then click a STAB move. I don't think being forced to run Lanturn or Stunfisk on every team is healthy for the tier, and this isn't really a far-fetched exaggeration because its STAB moves cover everything and even when resisted deals 40-50% damage.

Scarf isn't banworthy I agree, but it isn't ass :(

 

[noobcubed]

I don't really see what there is to discuss here. If you're running a balance team there's literally no reason not to run Specs Magneton for its ability to provide truckloads of momentum whilst doing massive damage, thanks to the massive number of resists it has plus the sheer power of Volt Switch. For comparison, Analytic-boosted Volt Switch is around 25% stronger than classic Banded Scizor's U-turn which, for three generations now, has been a huge threat in OU. Its ability to wear down its teammates' checks is ridiculous and it needs to go for the unmanageable pressure it puts on opposing balance/bulky offence teams. Hyper offence can potentially subdue it by swamping it with faster Pokemon, but still it turns the likes of Swellow into liabilites, and even with no investment it can avoid OHKOs from many faster threats (surviving, for example, Life Orb Sneasel's Low Kick 100% of the time after Stealth Rock). And of course, Scarf wrecks offence while still putting in work against other playstyles.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

First and foremost, people are running Stunfisk now. The only time I ever saw Stunfisk before the recent drops was in very, very low ladder when I was first starting a new alt or testing a team. The other two aforementioned checks, Lanturn and Torterra, are good mons in their own right, and worthy of consideration on most team archetypes without Magneton Volt Switching everywhere, but Stunfisk is just bad outside of checking Magneton (which it can't even reliably do because of Evio Magnet Rise) and resisting Flying which often runs coverage to beat it anyway (EQ Archeops, Facade from Swellow, and Scyther can just U-Turn out). Any mon that encourages the use of Stunfisk is, in my opinion, wholly unhealthy for the tier. For me, it's not that Magneton is downright broken as each is either slow enough to be taken out or not very powerful, it's just that Magneton restricts you so much in teambuilding that it can't be conducive to a healthy metagame.

 

[Teddeh]

First and foremost, people are running Stunfisk now. The only time I ever saw Stunfisk before the recent drops was in very, very low ladder when I was first starting a new alt or testing a team. The other two aforementioned checks, Lanturn and Torterra, are good mons in their own right, and worthy of consideration on most team archetypes without Magneton Volt Switching everywhere, but Stunfisk is just bad outside of checking Magneton (which it can't even reliably do because of Evio Magnet Rise) and resisting Flying which often runs coverage to beat it anyway (EQ Archeops, Facade from Swellow, and Scyther can just U-Turn out). Any mon that encourages the use of Stunfisk is, in my opinion, wholly unhealthy for the tier. For me, it's not that Magneton is downright broken as each is either slow enough to be taken out or not very powerful, it's just that Magneton restricts you so much in teambuilding that it can't be conducive to a healthy metagame.

Stunfisk is being used as a substitute for seismitoad since it moved to RU, whilst still having the ability to wall electric types and most flying types, it fits this current meta well and I don't consider it to be a bad pokemon, just outclassed in many respects by other ground types that people would have rather used. But using this as your main argument as to why the meta is unhealthy is just bullshit.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Teddeh Explain to me how it is a replacement for Seismitoad when they do different things? Sure they both set Rocks and have ground typing, but Seismitoad has 1 weakness, and the ability to run an offensive set if you want it to. Seismitoad isn't weak to Ground like Stunfisk is, which, even without Magnets, is extremely common coverage in the form of Earthquake. You said yourself that fisk is outclassed in many respects by other ground types. I personally don't see a reason to use it without Magneton in the tier.

 

[Orphic]

Teddeh Explain to me how it is a replacement for Seismitoad when they do different things? Sure they both set Rocks and have ground typing, but Seismitoad has 1 weakness, and the ability to run an offensive set if you want it to. Seismitoad isn't weak to Ground like Stunfisk is, which, even without Magnets, is extremely common coverage in the form of Earthquake. You said yourself that fisk is outclassed in many respects by other ground types. I personally don't see a reason to use it without Magneton in the tier.

Don't get Teddeh started on the ability to run an offensive set, it's an argument you WILL lose. Go watch his video from NUPL with the specs scald Stunfisk then come back.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Initial thoughts: Magneton has amazing raw power, coverage that allows for very few safe switch-ins (also picks it own counters with HP), the ability to create momentum with an extremely powerful Volt Switch (and to hit most Pokemon that would block the Volt Switch for massive damage), a great defensive typing (which also gives it SR resist and Toxic/Twave immunity), decent physical bulk, and three viable abilities.

I feel like this Pokemon has too much going for it for me not to vote ban.

 

[Teddeh]

I meant that it was a replacement for toad as in the tier needed a bulky sr-er that could take on the likes of rotom, magneton, fletch and in general be the team bitch pivot. Stunfisk has huge offensive potential since it can live multiple hits and fire off hits with a movepool that can spam things like scald, sludgewave, earth power and t-bolt / discharge whilst spreading status. Sure it doesn't do exaaccttllyyy what seis did but its role is very similar with what it does and I also meant that if seis was still in the tier, it wouldn't get the usage it does because toad does its job. Nevertheless, after using several variations of the flat fish, it's not a bad pokemon that should be limited to only be used by lower ladder players since even if magneton were to go, it would still have a nice niche in this tier, it just wouldn't been needed as much and I feel that you using that as your sole argument as to why magneton should be banned because of the rise of stunfisk is just bullshit. Sorry if I was not clear enough in my first post.

Also, yes specs analytic volt switch is more powerful than banded scizor's uturn, except volt switch can be stopped by a number of things in this tier with the likes of volt absorbers, lightningrod users and ground types such as stunfisk meaning that it can be stopped quite easily, whereas scizor's u-turn cannot be and hence i don't see a fair comparison.

 

[Finchinator]

Yes magnets has good power, but using specs calcs when I don't think that specs is even the best set is kinda ehh. I feel like I'll section out its sets and give my opinion on them all so I can share my views and maybe share clarity on how this pokemon from my experiences.

First and foremost, I think that Specs and Eviolite both have their merits - neither is better than the other one hundred percent of the time (there is no 'best' set, otherwise it would be the only set seeing usage) and it's really just a trade off between insane power or still solid power and the ability to change moves.

Scarfed set: Ahh this is a threat to offensive teams, however if that said offensive team is running a lanturn / stunfisk / torterra or even their own trapping magnets, it's nearly useless in every sense and really lacks any power to revenge kill or check certain pokemon such as the pixies (uxie / mesprit). Its bulk is really underwhelming without an eviolite and is nearly always a sitting duck unless it has team support to help get rid of its counters and checks meaning that it is a pretty mediocre set that is prediction reliant and 9/10 times a sitting duck. I'd even go out as far as saying that shit set is the worst magnets set by far and i'd even consider not even taking it into factor when I am deciding to vote.

Scarf Magneton is trivial in this discussion. Yes, it is a set that can be run, but it isn't anywhere near broken. It's like when we were discussing Typhlosion a couple months back, the Scarf set wasn't the focal point of discussion, but Specs was. For Magneton, it's specs and Eviolite as they are the controversial ones. Regardless, I agree with what you're saying, more or less - scarf Mag is mediocre.

Specs set: Big powaa, wall breaker status. This has switch ins, more switch ins than CB sawk in my opinion and it makes people not click magnetons stabs since every team has a lanturn or a stunfisk sitting their ready to absorb the hit which makes people NEED to make the prediction the first time around in order to potentially break it later on in the game IF magneton gets enough switch in opportunities. People are overestimating the bulk of a non evio magneton set and in an ideal situation, you're not switching this thing in on anything since you want it to be able to live a hit potentially at some point to fire off a nuke. Also, people calcing the "modest specs analytic big power hp ground" to its counters, they're barely being 2 hit ko'd and the player switchin in their lanturn is easily able to pivot out to a pokemon that can avoid the hp ground if it needs to and can shift momentum for the opposition team. From that point on, it will get harder and harder to bring magneton in safely and will never end up clicking its main stab which is volt switch or t-bolt / flash cannon. So yes it has great wall breaking sets, but unless you're playing A) a team that doesn't prepare for this S rank threat or B) a player that can't tie his own shoelaces, you're going to lose momentum easily.

Let's focus on the bolded portion first. You state that pretty much every team has a Stunfisk or a Lanturn in the back to make Magneton think twice before spamming STABs without much consequence. To this, I ask you: would Lanturn and Stunfisk be as necessary without Magneton? (Answer is no) Wouldn't teambuilding be far more open to using other things than Lanturn or Stunfisk without Magneton? (Answer is yes). Players adapt to top threats to make sure they aren't weak to them, so in gameplay Magneton may not strike you as a totally broken force, but when you have to use one of two things on pretty much every team, as you even said, it gets to the point where Magneton's presense in the metagame is a negative and restricting one, which necessitates a ban. The tier we have been playing in test games and NUPL for the last 2-3 weeks has been disgustingly centered around Magneton as every team now must have one of these pokemon in order for it not to be an issue - we got rid of Typhlosion and Mega Camerupt in order to lessen the emphasis in teambuilding on having checks to specially offensive fire types and here we are again, with another unreasonably hard to check threat that only has 2 real counters.

Going onto other things, you mentioned Sawk as something that is more problematic than Magneton. I disagree. Sawk is forced to predict (your main argument) or is shut-down to some extent by: Colbur psychics/ghosts (Xatu, Mesprit, Uxie, Musharna, Golurk, Gourgeist, etc.), really fat pokemon (like Defensive Mega-Audino post mega), and most poisons (Garbodor and Weezing come to mind). As for Magneton, it's basically limited to Stunfisk and Lanturn with honorable mentions to Electevire and Torterra. Otherwise, Magneton is free to wreck havoc on teams, even if they have an AV Hariyama or SDef Zweilous sort of pokemon, as Magneton can still hurt them quite a bit and eventually Volt Switch out for momentum, making non-electric immune special tanks not even too effective in regard to dealing with Mag (hence the big four of Lanturn, Stunfisk, Electrvire, and Torterra being emphasized upon).

I agree that Magneton is forced to predict when it encounters one of the few checks to it, but these checks are so sparse and Magneton's convenience and strength is so high in comparison that it's simply too much for the tier.

Eviolite set: This is by far the best set in my opinion since you're not choice locked, you have greater bulk and a great ability to check pokemon and even an option to boost its power using analytic ability making it a very viable set and a set I have decided to use myself. This is the set I look at most when I think of whether to ban or not magneton since its the most effective set rather than theorymonning every magneton to be specs in power and scarf in speed and eviolite in bulk... This set really lacks immediate power in my opinion, it needs to force a switch or to be slower in order to boost its attack and it also needs to force a switch. Now looking at magneton's stats, running a base 70 all out attack in magneton is alright, it's got decent bulk, checks sneasel to an extent and can beat fletch reliably whilst also going toe to toe with lanturn, however would I consider this set to be broken? I don't think so. It is checked by a variety of electric types that have grown in popularity and has also been given a few counters such as stunfisk and lanturn which are extremely noice for the team using them since they are excellent utility mons which can get up stealth rock, spread hazard or pivot on the magneton to gain momentum for the team which means that magnets is really nullified to the point it's just an average NU mon that has counters.

I think Eviolite is a very good set, too, but I wouldn't put it on a totally seprate wavelength from Specs as they both are phenomenal as I alluded to earlier on in my post (just a trade off between ability to switch up moves and slme power). Anyway, there are a few more things that can reasonable deal with Eviolite Magneton and it does lack immediate power that specs has, but with analytic it still hits switch-ins hard enough and it still has a solid base 120 SAtk with solid STAB moves, so it is far from underwhelming.

Similarly to specs, you still have to run one of a select few things to do well vs Magneton and with this set. Now, there is even more room to weaken those pokemon like Lanturn with HP Ground as you can switch moves and you risk less from predicting a switch-in, so that's a pro of Eviolite in comparison to specs, but the drop in power is noteworthy, so it evens out overall. Regardless of the prediction or power differences, I think the main argument that I mentioned before about the restrictions Magneton's
presense in the metagame provokes in regard to teambuilding and countering applies here, too.

 

[termi]

ok

Looks like the only anti-ban person gave up arguing. Might as well qb magnets right away haha.

I have little more to add what's been said but basically my stance on it is: even if magnets might not necessarily be outright broken, it makes the meta absolutely ass because it centralizes the entire tier around itself, turning a lot of things that gives it a free switchin into a liability and making the usage of a very bulky Electric immunity a necessity if you want your team to be worth shit. Basically, teambuilding becomes unnecessarily restrictive thanks to magnets and, I think almsot everyone can agree on this, makes the metagame outright bad, plain and simple. Even if you're not convinced that it's a broken threat because of its great versatility and unpredictability, extremely low opportunity cost, and its ability to destroy anything that doesn't resist it, its way of warping the entire meta around itself should tell you that it's a threat that should be disposed of. That is, unless you belong to the group of people who want to keep everything that is not super broken in a tier even if it makes the tier absolutely ass (a group of people I have... trouble relating to)

 

[Teddeh]

Ngl, I was just giving my views and looking at the reasons why magnets should stay, but if everyone in this thread discussion wants it banned, when why are we holding a suspect test when the whole of the community partaking in this tier is in mutual agreement that it should go?
My solution would be to void the suspect test and hold a quickban vote meaning that we don't have to suffer through this to get reqs when everyone has voiced their opinion regarding magnets asking for it to go.

 

[Kiyo]

I was actually with Teddeh for awhile on this, I honestly thought Magneton was pretty easy to check and I wasn't sure about how good it was. While trying to think of some decent arguments for no-ban I've come up completely short, I can't think of a standard type of team build for each playstyle that actually deals with all 3 variants of Magneton. I'm saying standard here because I'm sure not all people are like me and enjoy running Shedinja and VoltTurn offense to deny the opponents any momentum.

I'm still not sure if I think Magneton is broken or not yet, but I can definitely see how it has a huge impact on the metagame similar to that of XY Spiritomb (and there were only a handful of us who actually enjoyed that meta). Unless I can come up with a compelling argument for no-ban, I'll probably just obstain.

Something I really want to compel others to do is keep an open mind, try some new things, innovate a set or two, and have fun with the suspect test don't treat it as a chore, you should be treating as an opportunity to educate yourself on the Magneton metagame and explore all possible options to beat it.

 

[Funbot28]

Ngl, I was just giving my views and looking at the reasons why magnets should stay, but if everyone in this thread discussion wants it banned, when why are we holding a suspect test when the whole of the community partaking in this tier is in mutual agreement that it should go?
My solution would be to void the suspect test and hold a quickban vote meaning that we don't have to suffer through this to get reqs when everyone has voiced their opinion regarding magnets asking for it to go.

Even though I agree Magneton should be banned, we should still let people have the chance to experiment with Magneton to further improve their vote

 

[HJAD]

My feelings for Magneton at this juncture in the meta are quite mixed. Initially, I was extremely intrigued to see how it would fair in this meta, since I didn't think much of it in NU Beta when it was here in the first place. When I played it then, I never really had any problems, but, XY NU Beta and ORAS NU are completely different metas, which is why it was so interesting.

Overall, at this moment in time, Magneton in theory is most certainly broken. How can you find a Mon that both denies the momentum gain of volt switch, wall magnetons dual stab as well as any hidden power coverage it wants to run? Quite frankly, that is pretty much impossible. Our best checks (Lanturn and Stunfisk) are easily 3HKO'd by Hidden Power [Super-Effective] if the set is Specs Analytic, the seemingly most broken set. Its sheer power, its incomparable in NU and to couple this with a fantastic typing such as Steel-Electric and some good base defenses, you have the makings of an overcentralizing tank in the meta which forces teams to run a selection of a few mons in order to counter it, very little counter play. If you look at Magneton from this perspective, Magneton is broken and probably should be banned.

BUT after getting to know the meta a bit better and playing against several magneton and using it my fair share as well, I've found that in battle, Magneton is far more manageable than on paper. This has probably been voiced as an opinion somewhere through this thread, I just haven't bothered to check, but Magneton is quite slow. Its base 70 Speed means that it really doesn't get free switches against more offensive teams easily, and with the heavily offensive meta we have currently, Magneton in certain games has been managed to be made redundant with a couple switches here and there, making sure it has little / no room to click volt switch or do any major damage to the team. Also, coming from this same perspective, Magneton, should it decide to lock itself into a weak hidden power, electric type move (has types / abilities meaning that Mon is immune) or a steel stab (has quite bad super effective coverage) gives the opponent free setup fodder for Mon [X] that resists whatever move you end up going for. This can end in a backlog of momentum and huge pressure on the defensive core of your team. If your not careful, Magneton can unnecessarily put massive pressure on your team, forcing you to make the correct predictions turn on turn, in order to maintain its purpose.

Overall, with what I have gathered from both testing and theorymonning on paper, Magneton is too good for this tier. We are not all born Teddehs, Caseds, or FLCLs, but by having a Magneton on the other side of the field, it puts the pressure on the user to make godly plays in order to keep Magneton "in check". If you fail to do this, Magneton has the potential to rip through your core, 2HKO its checks, and leave you in a spot of bother.
I do agree with some of the anti-ban arguements, but the sum total of pro-ban arguements are more relevant and important when considering a mons ban potential. I don't think Magneton is far from actually being balanced, but at this point, Magneton is just too good for this tier at the moment.

 

[Cosmicmemer]

So here are my thoughts on this. Magneton is a very powerful and versatile mon, in that it has 3 good sets( but the scarf one sort of sucks tbh) and several options on which hidden power to run. Even some of magneton's checks, like stunfisk and to some degree quagsire, are totally shrekt by hidden power grass. On top of being versatile and somewhat unpredictable, it gains access to the steel/electric typing, which is tied with freaking aegislash for most resistances. The eviolite analytic set can live virtually any non- ground type hit and deal a better one back. The choice specs set is absolutely terrifying as well, being able to OHKO just about anything. This makes it a very restrictive thing to keep in mind while team building. If you have no checks or counters to magneton in your team, you are completely and utterly screwed in my opinion. So, if/when I get reqs, I am voting ban.

 

[freddymc]

If there is one thing about NU that I know for sure, it is that most of the pokemon here don't have actual pure offensive power, because most of the pokemon that do are in higher tiers. Think of as many pokemon in nu that have good offensive stats and don't have to rely on an ability/item to do tons of damage. How many did you come up with? 2? 3? Practically all of the offensive pokes in nu are either super-frail (any non-resisted hit will take them out), usually are forced to run choiced items to be effective or have bad typing. The only offensive poke that doesn't meet the criteria i just stated is mesprit, who has good offensive typing, stats, movepool and doesn't have to run choiced items to be effective. Magneton however, has too good bulk with eviolite, and even without it can still take a hit easily. Its typing is good both offensively and defensively, he has a good movepool, can run a myriad of sets making him unpredictable and overall with 120 base spatk that is just too good for a nu poke. I say BAN

 

[kay]

Think of as many pokemon in nu that have good offensive stats and don't have to rely on an ability/item to do tons of damage.

Magmortar, Archeops, Sawk, Evire, Rampardos(for whats it's worth), Cacturne, Aurorus, Samurott, Exeggutor. And then we have things like Zangoose who can basically 2 shot everything in the tier.

I do agree however that that magnet is ban worthy. It has amazing defensive and offensive typing unlike Aurorus or Magmortar who only provide offensive typing, an amazing offensive ability unlike Archeops, bonus of eviolite, and 3 different sets it can run. However saying that NU lacks pure offensive power is a mistake. We have a lot of it.

 

[freddymc]

Magmortar, Archeops, Sawk, Evire, Rampardos(for whats it's worth), Cacturne, Aurorus, Samurott, Exeggutor. And then we have things like Zangoose who can basically 2 shot everything in the tier.

I do agree however that that magnet is ban worthy. It has amazing defensive and offensive typing unlike Aurorus or Magmortar who only provide offensive typing, an amazing offensive ability unlike Archeops, bonus of eviolite, and 3 different sets it can run. However saying that NU lacks pure offensive power is a mistake. We have a lot of it.

i forgot to mention that by offensive stats i also meant speed. Also zangoose's power comes from its ability toxic boost, which sort-of restricts it's offensive capabilities. Not saying its bad or anything, but it doesn't have the "pure" offensive capabilities. An example of a typical offensive poke is lets say gengar, which has good offensive typing, stats and movepool. It can use items varying from life orb to specs, and it doesn't absolutely have to run one or the other to be effective. Also no-one ever says the only reason to use gengar is because of its ability. Just an example.

So my reasoning is that magneton has similar qualities to my example. Good stats, unpredictability and typing make it one hell of an offensive threat. And it isn't restricted to specific items nor is it's ability that makes it good.

 

[ryan]

I guess I'll actually throw in my thoughts because I think barring Teddeh, people are very, very pro-ban on what I think is a not-so-obvious suspect.

What makes Magneton potentially ban-worthy in my eyes is how one-dimensional and exploitable it makes balanced teams. If they don't have one of Lanturn, Stunfisk, Ferroseed, or Quagsire, Magneton is getting a kill pretty much every time it comes in, and they usually only have two or three things to outspeed it. You're forced to run one of these Pokemon, and most of the time it's going to be Stunfisk or Lanturn because they offer actual utility for balanced while also preventing Magneton from Volt Switching. This especially sucks because offensive Grass-types come in for free on literally all four of these Pokemon, and they beat three of the four with their STAB moves alone. Pokemon like Cacturne, Torterra, and Exeggutor can get a free kill like whenever you go to a Magneton check because they're all insanely strong. If we still had Seismitoad and Camerupt (even if only regular Camerupt), then I don't think it would be such a big deal because there would be a decent number of options to cover Magneton, but we don't. Considering balanced is the most popular playstyle in NU, making it one-dimensional makes the tier one-dimensional and thus really fucking boring to play. I haven't even seen that many Magneton, but its mere existence makes NU stale.

Sawk doesn't have this same effect because even though it doesn't have that many reliable counters, the things that do beat it vary drastically. Vileplume, Garbodor, Weezing, Granbull, Togetic, Scyther, etc. don't share one mutual type of counter. Offensive Psychic-types can threaten bulky Poison-types but lose to Scyther and get paralyzed by Granbull and Togetic, offensive Ground-types can throttle Garbodor but lose to Vileplume, Mawile gets a free switch on Scyther and threatens Togetic and Granbull but gets burned by Weezing and Spikes set up on it by Garbodor. The list goes on. The same cannot be said about Magneton because although its Electric STAB also has immunities like Sawk, it also has powerful Steel STAB, which is harder to prepare for than it sounds. If Magneton were just an Electric-type, it would be much easier to handle despite still being really powerful and having coverage for many of its checks like Sawk does.

What makes Magneton not-so-obviously broken is that it is perfectly manageable. While it doesn't have many answers, most of its answers are very cold stops to it. Stunfisk and Lanturn still take a good amount of damage from Specs Analytic HP Ground, but not enough not to be considered reliable checks. It's also pretty slow, so you can build around it without carrying a proper counter just by running fast balance. Still, it warps teambuilding a lot, and even though I was against banning it before, actually typing out my argument kind of swayed my opinion more toward the pro-ban side, much like it did with Kiyo.

 

[sniperr]

although I have not played Nu a lot lately, I can see why magneton is a problem. you litterally need to bring as counter like lanturn or quag, but they have the potential to run hp grass so its not as realible. it has an insanely good ability, great typing and coverage that allow it to abuse a lot of pokemon that it forces to switch. long story short, if one Mon forces you to use hard counter or unconventional ones, it probably shouldn't be there. just my opinion.

 

[Evan.]

I guess ill throw my opinions into the pot here, even though there's not really a lot that I can say hasn't been said here, but ill do my best.

Ill start off by saying that I am definitely siding with the pro-ban argument. The main reason that I want Magneton banned is because to me personally, it reminds me of a lesser version of Heliolisk in the sense that It can both pivot and wallbreak at the same time. While I know that Magneton is nowhere near as good as Heliolisk due to its superior speed and coverage, as well as having actual counters, but the fact that it can just Volt Switch out of checks and use its secondary STAB to hit common Volt Switch stops sounds extremely familiar. What Magneton does have however, is a great defensive typing, actual bulk, and 3 different abilities to choose from, which makes it even more versatile.

Speaking of versatile, one thing I dont think people have talked enough about yet is how Magneton could possibly adapt to its checks and counters if it stays in the meta. Lanturn is about as hard as counters go, but who's to say that Evio Magneton might not start running Magnet Rise in order to straight up beat supposed counters like Stunfisk or Torterra, since they cant do shit to a floating Magneton. Choice sets can even start running stuff like HP ice in order to hit Stunfisk and Torterra, since Lanturn hard walls you anyways. What i'm trying to say is that the meta can adapt to Magneton all it wants, but Magneton will find a way to adapt back.

That last point kind of leads into my next one which is that Magneton is so restricting on teambuilding that it is super unhealthy in the meta. The fact that you have to run a counter or hard check on pretty much every Balance and Offense team to avoid losing 2-3 mons is kind of ridiculous. Now youre probably saying to yourself that its no different from any other wallbreaker like Magmortar or Sawk against offensive teams. The reason why Magneton is so much more threatening is because of how much more versatile it is (having 3 different Abilites while also being able to use different items) than something like Magmortar or Sawk, as well as the fact that it can abuse its excellent typing in order to get free switch opportunities.

Anyways those are my thoughts on the magnet meta and why I think it should definitely be banned.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I was going to shitpost because I find this funny but have you tried using a pokemon with special defense invested and recovery? You can surprisingly stop Magneton this way! (woah) Musharna, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Vileplume, Kecleon, Roselia and Audino come to my mind. If you count the already mentioned Lanturn, Stunfisk and Ferroseed, and other bulky pokemon without recovery that can counter it, and restalk users, you have a lot of answers to Magneton. There are more broken pokemon like Zangoose, which can 2HKO almost everything in this meta. But I guess I can't convince you guys and your circlejerk.

The problem with all of the Pokemon you listed in the first sentence is that Magneton just clicks Volt Switch as you send it in, and then they have the upper hand as they send in something to pressure that mon. That is why people are using Lanturn / Stunfisk / Torterra / Electivire so much to prevent or punish Magneton for clicking Volt Switch. As hollywood said earlier, most if not all of Magneton's best checks are easily handled by Grass-types, which are pretty common and easy to fit onto a team.

 

[sniperr]

I was going to shitpost because I find this funny but have you tried using a pokemon with special defense invested and recovery? You can surprisingly stop Magneton this way! (woah) Musharna, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Vileplume, Kecleon, Roselia and Audino come to my mind. If you count the already mentioned Lanturn, Stunfisk and Ferroseed, and other bulky pokemon without recovery that can counter it, and restalk users, you have a lot of answers to Magneton. There are more broken pokemon like Zangoose, which can 2HKO almost everything in this meta. But I guess I can't convince you guys and your circlejerk.

true but I feel you can't really compare zangoose to being more broken. usually when he comes in its once and never again. he doesn't have the same ultility as mag does, so its really hard to make a comparison like that. I'm not saying zangoose isnt more broken in terms of what you are saying, just not as diverse as mag which can run many sets, while zanggoose only runs one and its usually revenged or checked easily (before the boost)

 

[HJAD]

I was going to shitpost because I find this funny but have you tried using a pokemon with special defense invested and recovery? You can surprisingly stop Magneton this way! (woah) Musharna, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Vileplume, Kecleon, Roselia and Audino come to my mind. If you count the already mentioned Lanturn, Stunfisk and Ferroseed, and other bulky pokemon without recovery that can counter it, and restalk users, you have a lot of answers to Magneton. There are more broken pokemon like Zangoose, which can 2HKO almost everything in this meta. But I guess I can't convince you guys and your circlejerk.

Scenario:

Magneton comes in on your Fletchinder.
You don't want to stay in.
You switch to Musharna, your special defensive wall with recovery.
Mushy takes 40% from Volt Switch
The opposition gets initiative
Brings in their [threat] which puts pressure on Mushy
You don't want to stay in.
The next Pokemon then has to take a hit from this threat.

The only mons that can prevent Magneton from volt switching and gaining this initiative is stunfisk, is Lanturn.
So, before you accuse this thread of being a big circlejerk, please read up on WHY magneton is broken, like the people who have posted in this thread already.
If you just posted your opinion that would be fine. But the fact you would go as far as to call this suspect test laughable is a testament to how inexperienced you are with Magneton itself and the metagame at the moment.