Unpopular opinions

[Raikaria]

Vaporeon is a bulky water. Great. What significant thing does it have to make it special? ... uhm... well, it got Hydration in Gen 5???

Very high base HP [130] combined with Wish. That was what made Vaporeon special. Water Absorb was also great considering it would get back 25% of it's maximum HP [Base 130...] every time it switched into a Water move. And Water moves are generally that reliable coverage type.

Base 110 Sp.Atk is also very high for a bulky water.

Vaporeon was very powerful even in Gen 5 because of Rainspam. It's only fallen off in Gen 6 due to power creep and stall in general being borderline unviable due to the almost complete lack of stall-based Megas.

Jolteon and Vaporeon have always been awesome. Flareon has always sucked.

===

Anyway; here's an unpopular opinion for you: The Gen 6 type changes were bad.

To remind people:
They added Fairy. Weak to Steel and Poison, Immune to Dragon; Resistant to Dark and Fighting.

These resistances could not scream 'METAGAME SHOEHORN' more. Weak to the two worst attacking types? Check. Randomly immune to the best? Check. Resists two pretty good attacking types. Check.

Oh; and it's resisted by Fire and not weak to Fire despite the fey often being bound to nature and thus should be fire weak. But fire's a good attacking type! And a bad defensive type! Can't have that. I mean, Fairies are weak to Poison because of their nature connection. But fire? No. We can't have that. Because Fairy is a metagame shoehorn.

But because Fairy was such a shoehorn, it's honestly only displaced Dragon and made a new Dragon. Fairy is as bad now as Dragon was before Gen 6. And Dragon's still almost as good as it was because the number of actually usable Fairies are low.

And the removal of Steel resisting Dark and Ghost was completely uneeded. Steel was a defensive bulkwark type which paid with awful offenses. And the LAST thing we needed was one less type resisting Ghost.

Now Ghost is only resisted by Dark; and the Normal-Immunity. And Dark is only resisted by Fighting and itself. Combined with thew Knock-Off buffs. GOOD JOB GAMEFREAK.

The type changes basically knocked Dragon down half a peg; and made three new Dragon-tier attacking types. While simultaneously kicking one of the types which was supposed to balance out Fairy in the nuts. Mercifully Ghost lacks very powerful STABs, but Dark has Knock Off buffed and Sucker Punch and possibly the dumbest move of Gen 6; Foul Play; and Fairy either has Huge Power boosted Play Roughs or Pixilate Boosted Hyper Voices.

Oh; and of course nothing was done to nerf Water. Despite Water being a pretty overpowered offensive and defensive type in it's own right, not helped by the fact literally every water-type gets Ice Beam to wreck Grass. Speaking of; that really grinds my gears. Fire-types don't often get a reliable Electric move. Grass-types rarely get a move to deal with Fire-types at all outside of occasionally Earthquake. Water gets to hold both sides of the triangle hostage because of Ice Beam.

Also there is no reason for Water to resist Ice or Fire honestly. Water Freezes. Water Evaporates. If anything water should be weak to Ice. And they even made Freeze-Dry to revel in that irony! You could even make a case for water being weak to Fire. A stronger case than Water resisting it.

 

[noobcubed]

I agree with Fairy being too powerful of a type, but I do respect the fact that GameFreak saw the need for metagame balance and at the very least tried to address it. That "five Dragon-types + Magnezone" is no longer a team archetype can only be a good thing. Of course in solving one problem they created another, like solving one face on a Rubik's cube whilst messing up the previous face you had completed, but this is just how the metagame works and it is impossible to judge how it will pan out whilst designing the game. Hell, the metagame is still evolving eighteen months after Pokemon XY was released and five months since ORAS.

However, I think the nerf to Steel-types was very much a good thing, as Steel resisted way too many types already, on top of being immune to the poison status condition, and since in gen VI Steel-types also for the most part became the best checks to the new God type, something needed to be done to weaken them a little. OU is still littered with Steel-types, and lest we forget four of them have been banned this generation (Mega-Lucario, Genesect, Mega-Mawile and Aegislash, with Mega-Metagross also coming perilously close), so it's clear that Steel-types are still quite the force.

 

[thelandlordsmm]

Even though it might not have made sense for some Pokémon to have it, I really enjoyed the fact that all fully evolved starters from gens 1-4 could learn Earthquake and was a little disappointed to not see that continue in Gen 5 (only Chesnaught and Emboar get it out of the gen 5-6 starters). I mean sure something like Greninja using Earthquake doesn't make sense but fuck man, Mankey can learn it. Ekans can learn it.

Serperior would LOVE to have Earthquake to help get past Heatran ( need HP Fire for Ferrothorn, no room for HP Ground). If little snake Ekans can do it, why not Serp?

 

[Codraroll]

Also there is no reason for Water to resist Ice or Fire honestly. Water Freezes. Water Evaporates. If anything water should be weak to Ice. And they even made Freeze-Dry to revel in that irony! You could even make a case for water being weak to Fire. A stronger case than Water resisting it.

Specific Heat Capacity.

Water has the highest heat capacity of any substance at room temperature. That means, water is the one substance which requires the most energy to change temperature. The amount of energy required to heat a kilogram of water by 1 K, would heat a kg of iron almost 10 K. Never mind boiling or freezing it, for that you have to pour a lot more energy in (or, well, out). That's a pretty good argument in itself for why Water would resist both Ice and Fire.

 

[Hyper Cutter]

Even though it might not have made sense for some Pokémon to have it, I really enjoyed the fact that all fully evolved starters from gens 1-4 could learn Earthquake and was a little disappointed to not see that continue in Gen 5 (only Chesnaught and Emboar get it out of the gen 5-6 starters). I mean sure something like Greninja using Earthquake doesn't make sense but fuck man, Mankey can learn it. Ekans can learn it.

They got weirdly stingy with TMs in gen 5 especially, I suppose because they wanted to balance out their being infinite (but they didn't remove them from the movepools of old Pokemon because... reasons I guess).

 

[Iron_Magnitude]

How did I insulted rocket green worm with stubby arms?

By using descriptions like that, whether intentional or not, you sound like you are insulting the design of the pokemon in question. Perhaps I am being a little too sensitive and defensive though.

Megaquaza brought the Asian motif and Greek alphabet design efficiently

I'm just going to point this out for the sake of pointing it out: Megaquaza definitely uses Greek alphabet features in his design. However, there is no inspiration from Asian culture in neither rayquaza or its mega's design. Rayquaza and its mega is actually based on the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl. Actually never mind, it turns out that rayquaza actually may be inspired by Chinese dragons, but whatever.

he is over the top but functional, completely overshadowing everything else even it's versatile origin form.

At least you agree his design is over the top. Although I hope you like him for significantly more than his stats/moves, because you seem to be implying otherwise.

People like him better than the previous form, big deal.

And that's why I joined this topic. Narcissism dictates that I find comfort in knowing there are people out there who agree with me on stuff like this. Let's just agree to disagree here.

My favorite legend as one might say is still mewtwo you know the Cat fetus gone wrong, Diancie was close to dethrone it tough. Both got great megas both competitively and in design, stretchy arms mewtwo with role hybridization, and majin mewtwo with double brain support tubes are nice eye candies, I can't dislike them.

Good to know your favorite legendaries getting megas makes you appreciate them more. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make earlier.

My point was that if you had something you like, become something you didn't like, and nobody you knew cared and started dissing the thing you liked before. You'd probably be pretty damn pissed off. Because that is sort of what happened with me and rayquaza.

Mewtwo however remained strong and versatile in competitive unlike quaza which if you where able to run his mega there is absolutely no reason not to which made the origin form just a crutch to its potential. Diancie's role and potential got better with Mega, and our little Rock bug princess fairy thingy became quite a sight to behold.

There is more to pokemon than just competitive viability you know. So mewtwo became stronger, as did diancie, but some trainers probably like the look of the original pokemon better (although I never cared about diancie to begin with). There is actually reason to use rayquaza's origin form: Some of us (myself included) like the way regular quaza looks better.

So yep my favorites became even better, How can I hate mega evolution or their design, outside Lucario spiky design or mega ttar (till you notice the pre evo being put into his design) most aren't obnoxious and offer rather unique stuff aside the stat buff and ability change.

I'm going to pull a logical fallacy here and say this: That's your opinion, and I disagree with it. I don't really have anything else to say. Not everyone thinks mega evolutions are unique, although I'd certainly say the majority of pokefans would agree with you.

All I'm saying is that Rayquaza deserves it's bash and their opinion is completely valid as hell, it's normal form is just the drag to the Godlike form in every meta he is allowed

Competetive viability and metagame prowess may be a valid reason to bash (although I wish you used a less hater-esque word), but if those are the main/only reasons, then they are stupid as hell. Thats literally the only reason I've read in every single pokemon fan's comment for praising a pokemon on the entire internet. That's not much of an exaggeration.

And I can tell you that not just as my opinion, but also as a fact: That pokemon isn't just about competitive battling. There is a shit ton more to it than that, so Arceus help me if I like a pokemon for any reason than that.

if anything you should drop the bias and admit they have valid reasons to call the basic form inferior, as design wise(Stated by the creators themselves in how they carefully designed this guy) and battle prowress wise it's inferior to its megaform.

Drop the bias? This is my opinion, and your whole post has been yours as well. I don't recall ever saying that the pokemon fandom at large didn't have a valid reason to deem rayquaza's normal form inferior. You brought that up yourself. I don't care how carefully they designed megaquaza (they could've simply lied about that for publicity for all I know), if I don't like it, then I don't like it. Refer to my above point(s) for your third point.

I know this is unpopular opinions, but I have to agree that the mass perception that Megaquaza > quaza is a well based opinion given the traits in its transition.

Well then let's just agree to disagree.

 

[-NLMRY-]

^

I'm on mobile so this will be brief until I get to my computer to edit. 1st, yeah you're being way too sensitive about people not liking the same thing you like.

The way I see this debate is similar to one I had with my girlfriend regarding music. In summary it is this: lyrics do not matter until they do.

Let me elaborate. When listening to a band/song for the first time there is so much coming at you that you're likely not processing what the band's message is for a particular song. What grabs you initially is the overall composition of the song; the beat, the tones of the instruments, the vocal melody/harmonies. All of those things combined determine, at least initially, whether you enjoy a song. For example, the Beatles are the biggest thing to ever happen to music, and they didn't get there by people finding deep, meaningful messages in "I Want to Hold Your Hand" or "Love Me Do," their first single. However, if a song doesn't grab you for the sound, upon a more careful listen the lyrics may "speak" to you and from there you'll start to appreciate the music as a whole. My example of this was NOFX' "The Decline."

All this is to say that in terms of a Pokèmon, what might grab someone first is it's design. For me it was Espeon. Ever since I first saw it in the original GS guide I loved it. Using it competitively, however, I'd judge it as lackluster, or outclassed, etc. This can have a diminishing effect for those that are competitively focussed, which people on Smogon are.

However, after using a mon you don't care for competitively can give you a deeper appreciation for it, and it's design and other things about it will start to appeal to you more. For me this is true of Shiftry. It never did anything for me until I realized it was the best anti-weather lead for sun teams in gen 5, able to OHKO TTar with Low Kick, Politoed with Leaf Storm, and even the Latis with Sucker Punch as a neat bonus. After using it I started really enjoying it's design too.

So I think you're partially right that there is more to a Pokèmon than it's battling prowess. And I actually agree with you about Ray - his mega is hideous. But just like you're saying yourself, there are multiple reasons a mon will appeal to someone. Whether it's its design, battling prowess, mythology, etc. You like what you like.

 

[mertyville]

I think Game Freak did a good job early Gen 6 with the Mega Evolution concept, the nerf to centain special moves like Flamethrower since the Special Stat can't be negatively affected as the physical one through burn, the weather nerf, a lot of Pokemon got something that makes them special or viable like Flareon got Flare Blitz and the transition to 3D was excellent.

The negative part is considering they introduced Fairies to balance out Dragons, they were keep adding things to make the Dragon Types "broken" again like fucking Mega Salamence. Speaking of Mega Salamence, what happened with the "balancing out" of Game Freak? It started to disappear when things like Mega Rayquaza, the Primal Friends, more coverage for Greninja etc were introduced and Kyurem-B still can't learn a good physical ice move.
Another thing what annoyed me is that Game Freak made almost all Dragons of Gen 3 into Mega. Mega Latios is probobly the most forgetable Mega that exist and appearently Game Freak wanted to make a Mega Flygon.

I really enjoy the Gen 6, however. It is now one of my favorite Generations and has so far IMO the best remakes. While I didn't really like Ruby and Saphire (being my least favorite games after Diamond and Pearl), their Remakes are probobly one of the most enjoyable games (of course meaning also the best remakes so far) I played (if only it had Battle Frontier).
But I am open what Game Freak has to offer next and I am really looking forward to some new toys like new egg moves, new tutor moves, new forms and maybe a few new mega (more Mega Ice and Electric Types and fewer Dragons or Psychics hopefully). I hope they don't announced a game again to early because I don't want to buy another Pokemon game every 1-2 years.

 

[Codraroll]

I see people here are claiming Fairy to be just as broken a type as Dragon used to be earlier. I both agree and disagree with that.

Agree because, well, the merits of the Fairy typing can't really be denied. It hits the best attacking types for super-effective damage, is immune to what might be THE best type, and the types it's weak to are situational at best (they can hit Fairies, all right, but are practically useless for everything else). Yes, in total that theoretically makes the Fairy type possibly the best one out there.

However, the Dragon type had one thing over the Fairy type: A lineup of fantastically strong Pokémon to use it. From the very beginning, Dragon types were supposed to be a rare, mystical, powerful type of Pokémon, designed to be the strongest, rarest and most difficult to find out there. Basically an equivalent of those OP weapons you find in other games only after beating every boss and basically completing the game. A reward for those who had the knowledge and patience to know how to obtain it. Dragons were also so hard to find/train/evolve that they would only serve you well after the game was beaten (Dragonite evolving so late that you probably couldn't get one in time for the Elite Four, Kingdra requiring a rare item and a trade to evolve - try puzzling that one out without a guide).

Later, more Dragon types followed the same mold. They were designed to be "rewards"; almost all sporting insanely high stats, insanely wide movepools, but rarity and late evolution. They were hardly broken within the games themselves, because a good Dragon type was so difficult to come across.

In competitive, though, these hindrances didn't matter, and the Pokémon designed for dominating the post game also came to dominate the competitive scene. The type itself was only part of the problem, much of it could also be attributed to how good the 'mons themselves were: High stats, wide movepools, including STAB moves with extremely high base power. A fantastic typing with the tools to utilize its full potential.

Fairies, on the other hand, have a good typing, but the Pokémon themselves are less capable of abusing it. Fairy Pokémon excel on the defensive side, and their gimmick isn't "unresisted power" like the Dragons do. They are more focused towards supporting their team mates, and do a bit of attacking "on the side". Fairy also lacks the equivalents of Draco Meteor or Outrage, or for that matter Dragon Claw/Pulse (in that those are learnable by a wide range of Pokémon, and sport comparatively high Base Power). Fairy is a really, really good typing, like Dragon, but unlike Dragon the Fairy 'mons and moves aren't strong enough to take full advantage of their typing.

EDIT:

I hope they don't announced a game again to early because I don't want to buy another Pokemon game every 1-2 years.

Oh, but Game Freak wants to sell you another Pokémon game every 1-2 years...

 

[noobcubed]

Can we get this thread back to the non-competitive side of things, please? There's the rest of Smogon for that kind of talk.

 

[Lady Vader]

I prefer Dragonite to Salamence. While I am in no way denying how awesome Salamence is. Regular Salamence is cool. Mega Salamence is cool. I've used Salamence competitively before and still do on my VGC team. Salamence is a cool Pokémon. I just prefer Dragonite.
Now, some of this is nostalgia. Hell, Dragonite was the first Pokémon I ever saw. But there are other reasons:
1) I straight up like Dragonite's design better than Salamence. I still find it funny that me, a person who loves rather macabre things, will melt if presented something cute. And I love Dragonite's cuteness. I just want to hug it. Also, it looks like it would be more fun to hang around than Sala.
Also, it is orange. Orange is my favorite color. That is all.
2) I have always loved Dragonite's appearance in Pokémon the First Movie.

I think it rocks that messenger bag. Also, more people would write old school letters if they were delivered by DRAGON!!!!
3) It has a cooler movepool. I just love the variety of attacks it can learn including Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Hurricane, Draco Meteor, and that's just some of the cool Special attacks! Salamence doesn't have that.
4) I also like it better competitively. While Mega Salamence definitely has shown its power, I prefer the bulky power of Multiscale Dragonite.

On the same note, Goodra is my favorite pseudo-legend for many of the same reasons, mostly the fact that it is adorable and bulky. Especially the bulky aspect since it is built so differently from the other psuedos who are all built around their attacking stat (Sp. Atk for Hydreigon, physical for the rest). Again, all seven psuedos are awesome Pokémon, both competitively and design-wise, but Goodra just edges out the rest.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I personally think Raichu is cuter than Pikachu.
I'm not sure why, maybe because Raichu has rounded arms and legs?

 

[HelenTheHero]

I prefer Dragonair to Dragonite actually, mostly because of the massive change of design when it evolves. I can't deny, Dragonite is really cute, and the design is nice enough (except for those tiny wings) but I can't stare at it and think "This evolved from my serpentine blue dragon of beauty!" and be happy. To me, Dragonair has this charm that Dragonite doesn't. Dragonite is the cute one, the bulky one, and the flying one. Dragonair is the sleek one, who is elegant and looks like it should be Water/Dragon. Although, if Dragonite had a diet, and the color scheme changed, I would probably not mind letting my Dragonair evolve.

I miss you Shimmer. ;~;

 

[UpQuark360]

I find Mr. Mime cute not creepy.
The Gen IV mascots are awesome - I think all final evolutions should be 'overdesigned'.

Edit:
I forgot to mention that after hearing about Lavender town's music, I looked it up and - though by no means did I love it - it wasn't too bad.
Also, I very much like the standard formula for the core games. It is works well and the newly introduced pokémon are generally enough to make each game novel.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I prefer Dragonair to Dragonite actually, mostly because of the massive change of design when it evolves. I can't deny, Dragonite is really cute, and the design is nice enough (except for those tiny wings) but I can't stare at it and think "This evolved from my serpentine blue dragon of beauty!" and be happy. To me, Dragonair has this charm that Dragonite doesn't. Dragonite is the cute one, the bulky one, and the flying one. Dragonair is the sleek one, who is elegant and looks like it should be Water/Dragon. Although, if Dragonite had a diet, and the color scheme changed, I would probably not mind letting my Dragonair evolve.

I miss you Shimmer. ;~;

I love dragonair

 

[JES]

True, Dragonite isn't as cute as Dratini, or as sleek and elegant as Dragonair.

Though this is to be expected, since that cute little Dratini, and that sleek and elegant Dragonair, becomes something stronger and smarter. We were probably fortunate that Dragonite isn't something more vicious-looking, like how the cute little Gible gets replaced by the aggressive, vicious Garchomp.

 

[Norne]

I'm probably the only guy in the world that considers dragonite better than its worm stages design wise. I guess I just like puffy belly dragons better than blue unicorn worms with orbs.

Knowing that mega evo for pseudos integrates pre evos in the theme, garchomp schytes on gabite, tyranitar build on pupitar and larvitar and Metagross gaining limbs equal to Half his evolution chain I kinda want to see how they would handle other pseudos, I mean there is a bit of shelgon back in mega Salamence, so there is hope for orby dragonite and puppet master headed hydreigon or even dentist nightmare hydreigon, heck blind mega goodra here we come if they even follow that path. Kinda whishlisting but it fits the recurrent theme on pseudo mega evos.

 

[HelenTheHero]

It still could of been done better I think. I looked around, there are lots of cool images of what Dragonair should of evolved into that would make it seem like a stronger, smarter, maybe even spiritual dragon being.

 

[Norne]

If you ask me those look awful... It's as if an oarfish mated with an ostrich and the early Embryo was transplanted into a deer with a huge testosterone influx to control the immune system and provoke a mutation to give birth to that thing...

I'm not holding bias but man our orange fat guy looks better.

 

[UpQuark360]

I'm probably the only guy in the world that considers dragonite better than its worm stages design wise. I guess I just like puffy belly dragons better than blue unicorn worms with orbs.

Knowing that mega evo for pseudos integrates pre evos in the theme, garchomp schytes on gabite, tyranitar build on pupitar and larvitar and Metagross gaining limbs equal to Half his evolution chain I kinda want to see how they would handle other pseudos, I mean there is a bit of shelgon back in mega Salamence, so there is hope for orby dragonite and puppet master headed hydreigon or even dentist nightmare hydreigon, heck blind mega goodra here we come if they even follow that path. Kinda whishlisting but it fits the recurrent theme on pseudo mega evos.

I do agree that Dragonite looks better, but he shouldn't evolve from Dragonair. They are different enough to just be made into two different evolution chains.

 

[Caramel Prisoner]

Wasn't there a theory some time ago that, similarly to how Venomoth's and Butterfree's pre-evos were allegedly switched, Dragonite just might have been designed to evolve from Magikarp? Which would make Gyarados the final Dratini line evolution.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Gyarados shares much more traits with Magikarp than it does with Dragonair. Both Gyara and Karp have barbela, fins and scales of the same shape, and an almost always open mouth, while Dragonair and Gyara are just two serpentine blue Pokemon that otherwise don't have anything else in common.

Beta/early designs of Dragonair and Dragonite also share an horn, antennas, a striped belly and a similar dorsal fin.

Dragonair>Gyarados is pretty much a baseless theory that ignores all the similarities beetween the actual evolutionary families just because OMG DRAGONAIR AND GYARADOS ARE BOTH BLUE SEA SNAKES.

 

[HelenTheHero]

Magikarp > Dragonite does make a small amount of sense, as the legend about karp being they turned to dragons, and they both share antennae as well.

 

[DHR-107]

Wasn't there a theory some time ago that, similarly to how Venomoth's and Butterfree's pre-evos were allegedly switched, Dragonite just might have been designed to evolve from Magikarp? Which would make Gyarados the final Dratini line evolution.

And then

Both show promise. I believe in the Venomoth/Butterfree switch totally. Too many of the design aspects match up, and I believe it was the Anime which ended up in the switch because Butterfree is cuter than Venomoth.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Magikarp has barbels, not antennae. They grow on its mouth, not on the top of its head(Gyarados also has barbels on its mouth). Moreover, Gyarados is also a dragon, just not a Dragon type(probably just for balance reasons, as nothing would hit a Water-Dragon supereffectively in Gen I), and since it's a Chinese legend, it would make more sense for the karp to turn into a Chinese dragon like Gyara, not an European dragon like Dragonite.