Gen 5 BW2 Ubers

[MMII]

Okay so I had made a piratepad a while ago just to see who was still interested in this. Sorry for making it seem like there was something special planned. It was just something I did cause I was feeling mildly nostalgic at the time and I was curious to see who still liked the meta.


I think having a thread for this stuff is probably better anyways. There seems a sizable group left so I'm sure there's some discussion to be had. I realize there's a general talk thread but that's burried somewhere and it suffered from having a lack of specific subject.





Anyways, I'm looking back at bw and cringing at the shitty sleep mechs. More than that, I'm really curious what you guys think would be done about Darkrai nowadays. Would you continue to use SpDef Kyogre or CB Ho-Oh as your sleep fodder knowing they could get slapped by Thunder? I feel like you'd need multiple checks to handle him now, and I mean multiple mons that can stop him after sponging the sleep as well as something that can actually safely force the Dark Void. I feel like the Taunt and Thunder variants just really shake things up (which we saw in UPL) but I don't think folks have really put in much effort to see what could be done about them.

What are your thoughts about Darkrai? Do you think having another headache like Palkia in the meta ruins it or do you think its just another meta change that'll be handled?



edit: btw topic of this thread is just a general lookback on the bw2 meta and how things have or might have changed. Also how homosexual a name like yohoe is.

 

[Sweep]

Darkrai in my eyes has always been a top 5 Pokemon in the BW Ubers metagame, right along with Ghostceus, Kyogre, Lustrous Orb Palkia, and Genesect. Its ability to essentially get a free kill with Dark Void forces your opponent to fodder or send in their sleep absorber & pray Darkrai does not directly attack and deal massive damage. For example, if you send in a Rest Talk Kyogre or Scarf Sleep Talk Dialga and Darkrai slams you with an appropriate coverage move, you're in deep trouble. With Darkrai's great Speed tier, perfect coverage between Dark Pulse and Focus Miss, and good 135 Special Attack, Darkrai is almost as threatening offensively as Mewtwo...and Mewtwo would kill to be able to incapacitate an opponent with sleep AND be able to check one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame (Ghost Arceus). Here is how I approach this Pokemon:


Using it:

I usually use Life Orb Darkrai, although SubPlot can mess up teams that lack a healthy steel like Dialga or Ferrothorn. I don't like Nasty Plot as much as I do in gens 4 and 6 because of the prevalence of Genesect and Scarf users in general. In addition, Arceus-Fighting everywhere and can easily beat a +2 Darkrai one on one. I typically used the following set:

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Thunder / Taunt

Focus Blast is great vs. offensive teams that send in Dialga -- especially Scarf Dialga -- into check Darkrai. You also slam opposing Dark types and Ferrothorn with it. Dark Void and Pulse are self-explanatory, but be careful not to blindly spam Void: if your opponent has a weakened Pokemon they don't need, it is probably going to come in on Darkrai unless your opponent sees Leftovers recovery and fears a Sub. Attack when needed and use Void on something like a +1 Ghostceus or a healthy Palkia midgame. The one exception is on Deo-S hazards teams, where Darkrai can very quickly make a game 5-5 after Deoxys does its job. There you can (and probably should) be more liberal using Void, though play intelligently regardless.

The last moveslot is interesting. Some people use Thunder Wave, but this move leaves you helpless vs. specially defensive Kyogre in exchange for crippling overeager Fightceus and Genesect switches. It's also an emergency way to slow down a Calm Mind Ghostceus if you've slept the wrong thing, but the general lack of utility in the move vs. Thunder or Taunt makes it unattractive in my opinion. I used to use Taunt more often but I like Thunder now to smash Ho-Oh and Kyogre. Taunt is perfectly viable on Sun teams, though. Beware that if Sun is up, Sleep Talk Ho-Oh is still going to be awful to face.


Facing it:

I'm going to post a pastebin of a few of my teams to indicate how I attempt to handle this beast.

http://pastebin.com/19RLsANB

Team One has a Lum Berry Dialga which can handle the uncommon and mediocre lead Darkrai with Thunder Wave, but can only switch in on Dark Pulse from other variants. Genesect and Kabutops revenge kill it easily, whereas Rayquaza can pick off weakened ones. I don't use ExtremeSpeed on Groundceus so Darkrai can handle that Pokemon.

Team Two has a Rest Talk Kyogre to try to deal with it and Omastar to revenge, but getting Toxic Spikes up is the key with this team. I can stall out Darkrai fairly easily with Protect + Kyogre + well-timed switches, but without TSpikes, Darkrai will be very troublesome. Ferrothorn can tank a Focus Blast if at full health and smash it with Gyro Ball, but if Darkrai can get by Kyogre and cripple Ferrothorn with severe damage, I will probably lose.

Team Three has TWO Sleep Talk users, as I often like to run a wall even on offensive teams as a general backbone. Kyogre is nice on that team to handle Garchomp and Lando-T fairly well, but since it's physically defensive it's a very risky switchin. Scarf Dialga also has Sleep Talk and switches in on most on its attacks, but if Darkrai uses Focus Blast, Darkrai will get a kill barring a miss. Deoxys-A revenges easily and Rayquaza can ESpeed it just like on the first team. Just like savvy opponents have messed up my Dialga with well-timed Focus Blasts, I've ruined switchin Darkrai with my Ghostceus, whether I go for Focus Blast myself or just click Substitute to scout. This team handles Darkrai better than my other two teams, but is far from invulnerable to it.

In general, I try to get a hazard or hazards up early, limit its switchin opportunities, and pack as least one "sleep absorber" regardless of what playstyle I use (though Lum Berry is not a reliable way of dealing with Darkrai outside of Lum Extremekiller). Obviously packing something that outruns Darkrai is important too, even on Stall. It is very difficult to build teams that can handle Darkrai easily unless you use Fightceus + sleep absorber. so do your best to account for it when teambuilding and BE CAREFUL about giving it free switches via clever doubles by your opponent. If your opponent gets their Darkrai on Ghostceus early to mid game, you are at their mercy.


tl;dr Darkrai owns, and mm2 can apparently make threads without permission. ur lucky ur cute m8

 

[MMII]

team 2 looks like it just forfeits to early game thunder darkrai. getting tspikes up seems too unreliable and i don't think omastar can clutch THAT hard.


The other teams just try to outspeed and run over Darkrai, for the most part. Which is totally fine, of course. I'm just curious what slower teams can do about the guy. Beyond fightceus + sleep fodder of course. I almost feel like spdef kyogre isn't a darkrai check anymore. It certainly can't stay in on it unless you've sacked something else to sleep and confirmed its not packing Thunder. I guess it still sponges sleep alright but jesus when you get hit by thunder instead you fucking cringe so hard.

genesect converting off of him is cool to have at least and that's probably the most limiting factor to darkrai. i think its really interesting how darkrai being good makes fightceus good which makes Latios/Mewtwo good and then loops back into darkrai (at least in latios's case which is probably Mewtwo's biggest niche). good of course meaning better than they already were.

what dedicated sleep spongers aren't trying to dance around a coverage move? I can't think of any short of scarf heracross, lol. too bad tina o and ghost arc shit on that mon so hard, although toxic probably helps loads in that respect.

I guess there's always chansey although even that doesn't always work since dark void can constantly force her out and without burning it on her. plus its fucking chansey.

 

[shrang]

Hydro Spam smashes this game

 

[MMII]

there was one rachi set I had started use to anti lead that I also liked in general cause it completely fixed any hazard bait problems it may have had otherwise (thunder doesn't do much to ferro) as well as gave it an option to fuck darkrai and check cm arc more consistently. it was iron head, twave, mcoat, wish. keep in mind, you give up the room to run SR for those bonuses so it only works on teams that can afford to stick the hazard elsewhere.

 

[dice]

this is still my favorite metagame so i'm bumping.

having not delved in bw for a while since upl, it made me realize something: almost all of the common balanced teams are seriously arc-ghost weak. before relooking at bw during upl, i always maintained that arceus-fighting was the best arceus in bw; i've always had a pretty intimate rapport with that forme due to the dominance of darkrai and ekiller in particular. however, looking back, some of my squads i made in bw2 were seriously flawed. same with some other popular ones. the problem with a lot of teams is their attempt in using kyogre as their sole check, especially choiced varients. this almost never flies. on heavier offenses, scarf ogre can work, but specs ogre is almost never a quality sole check. the team sweep posted above with arcground / kabutops which i had a similar version of is just too arcghost weak to function. this kinda made me lean toward using arc-steel, arc-dark, and ho-oh with exca / cloyster / kabutops support.

another underrated arceus-forme is grass. i really dislike spdef stally grasseus, but cm grasseus is just really strong with the proper support. the edgy 'heatran' hype from a couple of years ago died out, and genesect's inability to stay in and ohko arceus-grass means it can either weaken it with hazards or stay in and tank a u-turn if it has the hp to. free setup on every common weather setter AND the ability to set up on ferrothorn, and not able to be touched except phazed out against dialga / gira-o means that it has very very very very few common checks that aren't 4x sr weak. here's what i consider to be my favorite team i've made for bw and it fts. arc-grass

Hide

Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Roar

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 208 HP / 216 Atk / 76 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Sleep Talk

Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
- Explosion

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Low Kick
- Rapid Spin

Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Recover

speaking of heatran though, that poke is pretty unexplored. it's way more niche than ppl thought it was 2 years ago, but it has its uses and i reckon there are a couple unmade squads with it.

edit: oh ya and arc-grass helps cover palkia since that mon is fucking STUPID

 

[Aquasition]

Hm, Gen 5 Ubers is still one of the few Pokemon tiers I still play. I feel it is more diverse than XY, if not, ORAS. Also, I've fought Sweep in it way too many times to count.

Darkrai is pretty strong. I mean, stat-wise, it mainly has its speed going for it. But combine that speed with an 80(-72)% accuracy sleep move, as well as having enough moveset variance to screw someone over in a multitude of ways, whether it be LOPlot, SubPlot, Dual (Quad) Status, or even TrickScarf. I'd say it works its best on offence, because it does quite a good job of wrecking the opponent's momentum, and supplying momentum itself.

Also I use Reshiram and Kyu-B. On. The. Same. Team. And it works pretty well, or at least it works as well as a team with no ground resists does, which is to say, it's crazy enough to work :O

 

[Sweep]

Yea confirming that Palkia in BW is ridiculously good, a top 5 Pokemon in the metagame in my eyes (and the most unwallable one without forfeiting all defensive synergy). Base 100 Speed is actually really solid in this meta, as you outrun Timid Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and the plethora of base 90's. It's a better speed tier that what typical wallbreakers run! Lustrous Orb Palkia in the rain has two viable "counters," both of which are terrorized by common Spikes-setters: Chansey and Arceus-Grass. Neither Pokemon is splashable, yet if you want to get away with using a stall build you have to run one of them so you don't auto-lose to Palkia...and Palkia + Kyogre can very easily overwhelm either of them, especially if Spacial Rend crits or Thunder / Ice Beam have their status effect activate.

Here are would-be Palkia checks and how easy it is for Palkia to break by them:

Latias: A good check for offense, as Spacial Rend will not OHKO after SR (assuming 72 HP) unless Palkia is Specs. If Palkia does not predict the Latias switch, Latias can come in almost for free. However, Spacial Rend is Palkia's "go-to" move for hitting Arceus formes and Kyogre hard, so more often than not Latias is getting pummeled and will be forced to Roost or Healing Wish as Palkia switches out. Latias is also crippled by the rare Thunder Wave and gets smacked for ~60% by Dragon Tail.

Specially Defensive Kyogre: 3HKOed by Spacial Rend after SR, 3HKOed by Thunder, Dragon Tail will reset its sleep counter since BW sleep mechanics are retarded, and it cannot do anything back. Needless to say the best special wall in the tier is not a good Palkia answer. And no, this Kyogre cannot fit Thunder Wave over Roar.

Arceus-Water: Same problem as Kyogre. You do resist the Rain- and Lustrous Orb-boosted Hydro Pumps, but cannot do anything back to it while Palkia can Dragon Tail you or fish for a Spacial Rend crit. Very passive "check" that loses to Thunder variants. Fares slightly better in Sand or Sun, but still a meh switch.

Ferrothorn: Fire Blast does ~60% in the rain and OHKOes otherwise. Next.

Latios: Same as Latias, except you get OHKOed by Spacial Rend.

Various CM Arceus: In the Rain, Ghost and Dark Arceus lose on the switch to a combination of Spacial Rend and Hydro Pump, even if they use Calm Mind on the Pump. So long Stealth Rock is up, they cannot even beat a healthy Hydro Pump Palkia 1-1; Palkia can break right by the Calm Minds, as illustrated in the calcs below. Palkia can also Dragon Tail them (or Thunder Wave if it has that).

Hide

On the switch:
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in Rain: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

One on one:
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in Rain: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in Rain: 169-199 (38 - 44.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(they can try to Recover stall after the first Calm Mind, but they isn't a very good way of trying to beat Palkia!)

Choice Scarf Genesect / Palkia / Zekrom / Dialga / Deoxys-A / Mewtwo / Darkrai: Good revenge killers but none switch in safely.

Specially Defensive Dialga: Balance's best and most practical check if the team cannot fit Grass Arceus. Specs Palkia break it easily, but Dialga can live two Spacial Rend otherwise and OHKO it with Draco Meteor. Dialga can also live with a stray Thunder Wave, but dislikes being Dragon Tailed on the switch as that puts it in 2HKO range for Spacial Rend.

Lugia: Loses badly if SR is up. If SR is not up, Palkia can still 2HKO it with two Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, so long it gets high rolls. If not, it can Thunder, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, or simply switch out in favor of a hazard setter to take advantage of Lugia's presence.


Now for the counters (lol!):

Arceus-Grass: Loses to Fire Blast in the Sun, Palkia can fish for a Spacial Rend crit, Thunder Wave cripples Grass Arceus, and again Dragon Tail variants are annoying. CM Grass Arceus is a much better check than specially defensive Grassceus as Palkia cannot blindly click Spacial Rend hoping for a crit; the former can actually threaten Palkia back, although Grass Arceus is easily checked early- to mid-game by Forretress / Ho-Oh / Toxic Ferrothorn / etc. It's definitely the best check around and is a solid Pokemon in general, especially late game.

Chansey: Terrible Pokemon in a hazards metagame. The best "wall" and doesn't really care much if Spacial Rend crits, but simply invites too many of Palkia's teammates to be good in practice. It is also Dragon Tail and Focus Punch bait. Flamethrower Blissey on Sun teams might be OK though, I haven't tried it because defensively-oriented Sun teams are not my thing.


The only real way to deal with Palkia is to pressure it to death offensively, which is just fine for offense. Unfortunately, Palkia puts a tremendous strain on building balance / stall, especially since would-be checks can be hit with TWave / DTail / a Specs attack / etc. It's a fun Pokemon to use, but my god it's tough to prepare for.


Note: I dislike Choice Scarf Palkia, but it has its uses on balance to act as a glue / failsafe vs. Dragon Dance Rayquaza while cleaning somewhat passably. Ambushing Genesect looking for a free U-turn is fun, too! Your core behind it better be strong though, because CM Arceus / Extreme Killer / other sweepers love setting up on it.

 

[Aquasition]

Whole Palkia Post

What? No mention of Haban Berry, which allows Palkia to be a lure in both that if you switch it in vs a "slower" scarf Dragon, you can either whammy the switch-in if they think it's scarfed, or hammer the poor scarfed Dragon with a Spacial Rend. Provided the attack you're being hit with isn't a Soul Dew/Specs Draco Meteor, Palkia should be able to survive the attack provided it's healthy.

 

[Asmodean]

I really liked using Palkia in XY due to the prevalence of scarfogre but didn't use it much in BW. Haban variant looks cool and can destroy the opponent's scarfer/slower dragon. Imo the only thing stopping it from being S rank is it's lack of reliable recovery. Though I have seen specially defensive Palkia sets with RestTalk and Toxic.

Another of my favourite mons that doesn't see as much use now is Shuffler Giratina-O. What kind of sets did you use on Giratina-O and what creative spreads worked well on this mon? Have you tried variants like Magic Coat, Substitute, etc.? How did it go?

 

[Random Passerby]

Been a while since I last played BW2 Ubers but;

1) What beats Palkia, really? Grassceus is just sitting there waiting to get critted (or straight up lose to Fire Blast outside of Rain) , SpD Ogre loses to Thunder, Ferro can't take too many Rain-boosted Hydros and Fire Blast does like 60% +. 100 Base Speed is also amazing in the much slower BW2 meta. And that's not even getting into it's Haban Berry, Scarf and Specs set. As the Dex straight up says it, "Palkia is a d***".

2) As for Darkrai, it looks really good on paper with Thunder (haven't faced one myself yet. Don't think this was a thing back then). Yes, I know it sleeps most things slower than it and has Thunder / Focus Blast to hit Kyogre and break past Steels, making it very difficult to switch into. However, is it really that good with Scarf Genesect everywhere? - although this might be good for it since Scarf Genesect discourages Shaymin-S and Mewtwo, both of which are faster than it and can potentially revenge it.

 

[Asmodean]

Of The Night (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 176 Atk / 248 Def / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake / Will-o-Wisp
- Substitute
- Shadow Sneak

I like how this set with creep is a good stop to smeargle smashpass. I remember facing it in a room tour sometime but didn't have any reliable stop to it on my team.

About Palkia. I also like how it can work in both weather archetypes very well. In sun teams it acts like a strong (sometimes only) Kyogre check, whereas in Rain it also plays the role of a fast attacker, spamming strong Hydro Pumps to nuke the opponent. The versatility of BW Palkia was just awesome, I wish it were still around in ORAS, easily one my favourite pokemon to use in XY as well.

I think Scarf Genesect definitely affected Darkrai's popularity. I remember special genesect being used quite often in tours. I don't know why it was so favored, would like to hear from someone who has used it.