Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Rowan]

I don't think Ferroseed should be A+, sure it has good bulk and typing, but it lacks a reliable form of reovery, which ponyta, spritzee, and porygon all have, which is what makes them truly threatening. Ferroseed relies on its teammates for healing, meaning it's rather reliant on team support, which would make me argue that it's more A or even A- than A+.

I do get your point, but Ferroseed is still the best Pokemon that has its role. It checks/counters wayyy more Pokemon than any other wall. It's also the best hazards setter in the tier. Ponyta, Spritzee have reliable recovery, yes, but Ferroseed makes up for that by being a much better glue mon, and a niche that it faces little competition for.

 

[Celestavian]

A*: Abra (^), Fletchling (^), Porygon (^), Timburr (^)

A+: Archen, Magnemite, Ponyta, Spritzee (^)

A: Chinchou (v), Croagunk, Diglett (^), Drilbur, Ferroseed, Foongus, Gastly, Snubbull, Staryu (^)

A-: Carvanha, Cottonee, Gothita, Omanyte, Pancham (v), Pumpkaboo-XL, Shellder, Skrelp, Tirtouga, Vullaby

We've already discussed this and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Abra, Porygon, and Timburr ought to move up, but from there it gets a bit more subjective. I say Fletchling deserves to go up too, just because you kinda need at least two good checks to it or else you are going to get swept by it pretty often. With these changes, I think Spritzee can go up now to A+ since we've relaxed the restrictions a bit. Chinchou I believe deserves to move down simply because I think it was overrated to begin with, and now the Pokemon that it used to be a fantastic check for such as Magnemite and other Chinchou (lol) usually carry HP Ground to get around it. Every set except those which are fully Special Attack invested and Modest are weak and set-up bait for Pokemon such as Timburr or even Omanyte provided it lacks Thunder Wave. Maybe back when it was one of the only good switch-ins to BB Murkrow it was worthy of its old place on the list, but now I think it should be lower on the list. Diglett can go up because it's the easier of the two trappers to put on a team, and since its not Choice locked, it isn't as hard to use either. Staryu can go up since that bulky set with Scald and Psychic started getting popular, and now I feel that lets it move up a place since we aren't building it to be so defensively weak anymore. Having 19 Speed, reliable recovery, and Rapid Spin make it one of the two best spinners in the tier, and I think it should go up. Finally, I feel that Pancham should move down because, while it can destroy stall with Swords Dance and the appropriate coverage move, balance and offense have a much easier time against it because it is so slow. Basically, it has the same problems as Skrelp that prevent it from being any higher: great power, but slow and lacking reliable recovery, making it hard to switch into the things that it wants to switch into.

 

[tazz]

I'm just gonna go over what I think A should be, and elaborate on anything controversial
A*- fletchling, timburr, abra, ponyta

fletch and ponyta reasoning

Fletchling is still the best revenge killer in the meta, and is a valuable tool vs stall and offense alike. It is very good at it's job, will always execute, and is fantastic at stealing momentum with u-turn. Ponyta is basically a terror to any team w/o diglett, chinch, or toxic ponyta, honestly ponyta is a huge concern when team building as it is just ridiculously good at spreading burns vs teams w/o diglett.

A+ Porygon, chinchou, magnemite, archen

reasoning

I outlined this in a previous post (see last page, I'd like to see arguments), but basically I find that porygon is one of those mons that looks fantastic on paper but in play is actually only above average, it just doesn't perform like it should in theory. Chinchou is still really good at getting momentum and is still one of the best pivots, It's definitely not as good as it used to be but it will still do it's job, whether being bulky, spreading burns, healing the team or grabbing momentum. Mag is something that I thought was mediocre for a while, but then people started utilizing scarf magnemite to great effect and I saw just how good it could be. Scarf mag is just such a great set and really sets it apart from A, every time I face it it performs well, even when I have chinch or some other fatmon. Archen is pretty obvious in my opinion, it is so easy to fit onto teams and is so good at doing what it does, I just don't think there's much to discuss.

A Drilbur, Ferroseed, Foongus, Gastly, Snubbull, Staryu, Croagunk, spritzee, vulpix, Gothita

reasoning

I think that the only non-obvious one here is gothita, so i'll explain it. Gothita can be difficult to fit on teams and isn't right for many teams, but if you do manage to put it on a team it is ridiculously good. This thing was spammed in SPLC for a reason, it is such a good mon to have to combat all the bulky teams running around the meta, and it keeps many teams from having their way just by being there. The best part is that it doesn't even have to trap anything to do it's job, it just being on the team limits play. Even if it does miss out on some OHKOs, it's not difficult to weaken them and they should be weakened anyway lol.

With spritzee I think it should stay A just because it gives up momentum and is just not suitable for most teams, even though it is good at passing wishes. Any fairy resist just gets in for free and it just gives up too much momentum to be A+.

A- Diglett, carvahna, cottonee, omanyte, pumpkaboo, shellder, skrelp, tirtouga, vullaby

I think these are pretty self-explanatory

 

[Berks]

my opinions, for what they're worth

A* - Abra, Ponyta, Porygon, Timburr
A+ - Archen, Chinchou, Fletchling, Magnemite, Spritzee, Snubbull
A - Croagunk, Drilbur, Ferroseed, Gastly, Pancham, Vulpix, Diglett, Staryu
A- - Carvanha, Cottonee, Gothita, Omanyte, Pumpkaboo-S, Shellder, Skrelp, Tirtouga, Vullaby, Houndour

So let's go over the changes

Ponyta - 19 Speed, great BST and Defenses, great matchup with the Sers. Can go incredibly offensive with LO, basically a nuke at that point. Reliable recovery, decent coverage.

Spritzee - Really good bulk, really really good typing. Can provide Wish and Aroma support, but kinda gives up momentum (which is arguable with Wish.) Really good in the Fighting meta

Snubbull - Intimidate, really really good typing, seriously Intimidate is so good in this meta. Can viably run Berry Juice. Is basically Spritzee for offensive / balanced teams. Deserves the same rank as Spritzee.

Diglett - 20 Speed, Arena Trap. I've always felt that having the ability to switch moves is better than Trick. Also has access to Rocks, Memento, and more!

Staryu - Good defensive typing, 19 Speed, Rapid Spin. Somewhat less than average bulk, I guess, but has access to Recover and Natural Cure. Can easily go offensive with LO. Just as good as Drilbur imo.

Please don't drop Pancham, its got better stats than Timburr and better coverage and SD, all Timburr has over it is Guts and Mach Punch

 

[RZL]

A* - Ponyta, Abra, Porygon, and Timburr
Ponyta is the only one here which needs elucidation so, I'll elaborate my thoughts. Ponyta is a great defensive Pokemon which has access to Recovery, and Will-O-Wisp, whilst remaining in the 19 speed tier. This allows it to out speed and burn, Mienfoo, Pawniard, and to a lesser extent Drilbur, Archen, and Tirtouga. Its ability also allows it to spread burns effectively such as coming in on a resisted attack, namely U-turn. It can also run an effective Sunny Beam set in conjunction with Vulpix.

A+ Archen, Spritzee, Fletchling, Chinchou,and Magnemite
Spritzee is the only one that really needs explaining here. Spritzee is a great bulky Pokemon, whom I love to use on stall team. Spritzee uses one set, okay, that is a problem, but who cares when that set walls everything to hell, and spreads wishes and aromatherapy around. This is more of a personal changes as, I love stall teams, and Spritzee provides health to Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Chinchou, and many other Bulk Pokemon that are in LC without reliable recovery.

A Croagunk, Ferroseed, Snubbull, Staryu, Tirtouga, Gastly, Vulpix, Vullaby, Omanyte, Drilbur, and Diglett
Ferroseed is a great bulky Pokemon but it relies way too much on other Pokemon for healing whether it be by Wish, or Leech Seed for me to get it A+. Vullaby is one of the best Bulky Pivots, and Defog access is nice, whilst Brave Bird hits hard. Diglett is the better trapper between it, and Gothita. FletchDig is a great core still, and emphasizes that Diglett traps, Ponyta, Magnemite, Chinchou, Vulpix, Omanyte, Croagunk, and Houndour, while Gothita does not trap nearly as many Pokemon effectively.

A- Carvanha, Cottonee, Foongus, Gothita, Houndour, Pancham, Pumpkaboo-Super, Shellder, Skrelp, Stunky
Foongus is a lord, yes, but Foongus' Spore is not as much appreciated as it once was, and then Foongus can be Set Up fodder, whether it be Fletchling, or anything else for that matter. Houndour is the second best Pursuit trapper next to Pawniard, it has great STABs and utility in Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Fire Blast, and its only downfall is pretty drastic, but can be overcome with teambuilding, this is a weakness to Fighting. Rowan epitomizes why Pancham deserved to drop down. Stunky is a great offensive Defogger, is in the 18 speed tier, and counters Abra whilst trapping it. Very underrated Pokemon that I think deserves more recognition.

 

[Rowan]

Please don't drop Pancham, its got better stats than Timburr and better coverage and SD, all Timburr has over it is Guts and Mach Punch

I'd rather have guts + mach punch nine times out of ten. Pancham has these advantages but its niche just isn't important enough to justify its use over Timburr or Mienfoo which are both more useful in loads more situations.

e: If timburr and mienfoo didn't exist, pancham would clearly be A, maybe A+ or A*, but it just isn't worth the teamslot over them a lot.

 

[Holiday]

Insane

reasoning

it's p easy to say these three pokemon are a cut above the others. Timburr is an amazing set up sweeper, between LO and Sash Abra is a versatile safety net and wallbreaker, and Pory is bulky afffff

High

reasoning

I moved Vulpix up not only for being the prime supporter of Sun teams, but for the LO/Specs wallbreaking set. Sitting at a good 17 speed, Overheat can OHKO resists in the sun and it's incredible how strong Vulpix can be. Gastly also moved up for a powerful LO set, and it has the ability to run a decent sash set. Baby Abra tbh :D

Mid

reasoning

Mag goes down bc the endure set is p easy to play around, it's not always the best stop to set up w/ sturdy either. Scarf Set w/ Analytic is honestly the best set in the meta for it rn. Carv goes up for being an amazing sweeper that just needs some KOff support to knock shit in. Staryu went up for being an very good spinner on offense that can pack a punch as well as play a defensive role with the Eviolite+Recover set.

Low

reasoning

Foon dropped for being p easy to take advantage of after a spore, panda dropped bc Timburr and foo exist lmao.

B+

reasoning

Skrelp is a very good wallbreaker, but it's just so damn slow. Also it's movepool is limited to STABs+Hidden Power+another STAB in regards to all out attacking. Goth is easy to take advantage of, and I find Diglett to be a better trapper in general

this is obvi just my opinion, take it as you want.

 

[Rowan]

updated the OP with preliminary A rankings.

However, would appreciate more discussion on the following mons.

A* or A+: Fletchling, Ponyta

A or A-: Diglett, Omanyte, Vullaby, Foongus, Gothita

 

[mad0ka]

For the A* or A+: put them both in A* because Ponyta is unrivaled in its ability to spread burns and be a general annoyer with really great bulk and an amazing speed tier, not to mention it also hits pretty hard. Its main answers Chinchou and Tirtouga are, for the former, easy to deal with, and the latter, decreasing in usage a lot, so it's great in the meta. Fletchling's overarching presence in the meta kinda warrants it a spot in A*, even if it is prepared for a lot it still provides immense utility and sweeping potential.

For A or A-: Keep them all A- because: Diglett is weak even with LO; Omanyte is dealt with kinda easily by balance, the dominant playstyle in the meta; Vullaby can't do much besides annoy by spreading knock offs, tanking hits, and defogging; Foongus is shit after it uses spore; Gothita, though more versatile than Diglett, requires much more support than Diglett does, and is overall on equal footing with Diglett.

 

[Berks]

Definitely put Pony in A*. It's completely on par with Abra and such. Fletchling, now that I think about it, definitely deserves A* as well. Even though practically every team carries a check or two now, Fletchling can still run stuff like Hidden Powers now that everyone is used to Fletch Kills. It's still so threatening.

I'd support a Shellder move to A before an Omanyte one, but that's probably just me. As for the rest, I feel Diglett is generally more effective than Goth and should be a rank above it, at A with Goth staying in A-. The rest stay in A- as well.

Also, can you go through the rest of the ranks and do pluses and minuses please

 

[Tymano]

I really like this idea of 4 A subranks (A*, A+, A, A-) instead of splitting up S, as with most A+ rank mons, there are a few a cut above the rest (Pony, Timb, Abra, Fletch) As I feel those mons are a cut above the rest of A+ rank, but not quite good enough to be S (except for maybe fletch.)

Also, my idea for what the A ranks should look like (my changes in bold)

S: Mienfoo, Pawniard

A*: Abra, Fletchling, Ponyta, Timburr

A+: Archen, Chinchou, Ferroseed, Magnemite, Porygon, Spritzee, Vulpix.

A: Croagunk, Drilbur, Foongus, Gastly, Gothita, Omanyte, Pancham, Snubbull, Staryu

A-: Carvanha, Cottonee, Diglett, Houndour, Larvesta, Pumpkaboo-Super, Shellder, Skrelp, Tirtouga, Vullaby

Will elaborate on my ideas for changes in a later post.

It's finally time for me to elaborate on my ideas for ranks., also very long post
Fletchling A+ ->A*: Fletchling is an interesting case, STAB 110 base power priority (acrobatics) paired with moves such as overheat, U-Turn, return, natural gift, and good support such as SD, roost, and tailwind make it a threat i feel as though I need to prepare for make it very threatening, and on a level similar to Timb, and Abra, if not slightly higher IMO.
Ponyta A+ -> A*: Ponyta is easily one of the tiers best defensive mons, being very able to spread a lot of burns very easily, whether by ability or by WoW. It also has decent recovery in morning sun, and it has amazingly powerful moves in Flare Blitz and Wild charge that can hit very hard to any non ground or rock type. It also hits the coveted 19 speed tier, meaning it will outspeed most of what it goes up against.
Porygon A+: Porygon is a really nice defensive mon, and it seems to have all of the defensive qualities it has to be successful. Good recovery, status options, nice attacks, goid bulk, etc. But like tazz mentioned, it is only above average in battle, and being a normal type in a meta all about foo is very bad for most normal types, especially since porygon dosent have that much to do to it besides psychic.
Will do the others in another post (oh jeez this is pretty long)

 

[mad0ka]

so are we just gonna ignore the pawn for A* nom

 

[boo836]

how tf is Pony on par with Abra and Timburr? It's a "wall" that isn't really bulky, has a hard time as a sweeper, and is more or less around to just burn shit. I'd be fine with A+ since it checks the two best mons in the meta well, but I think it's pretty clear that Pony isn't on the level of mons that could be thrown on any team.

Imo I don't even think Pory deserves A* either and would much rather it be Fletchling, which I'd say is LC's best cleaner/ pivot/ revenge killer in ONE set.


Let's kick down Tirt to A-, if not B+. I know this is pretty controversial, but I've found Tirt to be extremely underwhelming. As far as Smash goes, it's just got so many checks all over the map, and doesn't net the same kills as Omanyte. Support struggles to stay relevant, as spinners are more common and both of them hit Tirtouga pretty hard. While nothing admittedly wants to switch in on a Scald (barring Timburr and Gunk), it's not as threatening since the metagame has become more oriented towards special attackers.

 

[Celestavian]

If we were to kick Pawniard down to A*, we might as well just move Mienfoo to S+ and put everything from A* into S. Personally, I still think Pawniard is on the same level as Mienfoo. Even without its survivability, Pawniard's Knock Off is just too strong, and it has so few reliable switch-ins, being limited to Mienfoo, Ponyta, Larvesta, Trubbish, two of which are SR weak and one of which is total garbage. Everything else either likes having its Eviolite too much or gets smacked by Iron Head. Then it's got priority, Steel typing, utility in the form of removing Eviolites, SR, or even Thunder Wave if you're into that, and it can sweep with SD or come out swinging from the start with a Scarf set. I'm not going too in-depth here since we all know what Pawniard is about, but I think we've gotten a little too used to it if we're considering bumping it down. It's still a terror, and nothing has changed metagame-wise to make it any less deserving of S.

 

[Pancham]

This is why I use based Berry Juice Pawniard, mad0ka

 

[mad0ka]

There is no way that Pawniard is on the same level as Mienfoo. Mienfoo has the same capability to spread knock offs, though it is considerably weaker, but is also in a much better speed tier. It can carry various options, at least in its fast utility set, to damage things that would otherwise wanna switch in, like acrobatics or stone edge. It can also run taunt, effectively neutering leads like Dwebble and preventing sweepers like Tirtouga or Omanyte from setting up. It switches in on so much of the meta and can either cripple them or outright KO them, as its HJK is nothing to be laughed at. It's just an amazing support mon for any teammate, and there is nothing on that level. In addition, it also has the option of running choice scarf, which dents the meta as fucking hell. It also deals with would-be checks, like Abra. There are so many lesser used but also incredibly viable sets like slow SD pass, bulky foo from Missy era which functions just as well, to name a few. Mienfoo is just completely on its own rank, and if you don't agree with Pawniard being A*, then you have to at least realize that Mienfoo should be in a separate tier from Pawniard.

 

[Celestavian]

I think you are underestimating the importance of Knock Off's damage. It is far easier to absorb a Knock Off from Mienfoo than it is from Pawniard, although the primary purpose in most cases is to get rid of Eviolites. Being able to, for instance, do enough damage to Chinchou with Knock Off that it can't switch into Fletchling any more as opposed to just removing its item and still leaving it enough health to function one or two more times is the advantage Pawniard has over Mienfoo. Also, the difference between 16 and 17 Speed isn't that huge, and while tying Drilbur and Archen and what not would be cool, Sucker Punch means you can still hit them and pose a threat. Being faster than Dwebble or Bunnelby all the time is pretty much the only things that Pawniard would really want, but otherwise, 16 Speed isn't that bad. Pawniard is just as great of a support for any Pokemon in the metagame as Mienfoo is.

Also, I'd like to stress this: I do indeed think Mienfoo is better than Pawniard, however, I don't think the difference in power is enough to separate them. Pawniard is definitely above any of the A* Pokemon currently nominated for it, and it really wouldn't feel right to have it there. Mienfoo may be slightly better, but Pawniard is still IMO the second best Pokemon in the metagame right behind it, and it still deserves S even if it's not on the exact same level as Mienfoo.

 

[Rowan]

there's always gonna be Pokemon that are better than others. IMO Drilbur is better than Croagunk, they're still both A. Omanyte is better than Shellder still both A-.

 

[tazz]

Can I get some explanation as to why porygon is A* and ponyta isn't?

Nominating either spritz to A or snubs to A+, snubs is easily as good as spritzee as spritzee kills momentum completely and is generally a bad option for offensively oriented teams, even though it can heal. Comparatively, everything else in A+ can fit onto most teams.

 

[Merritt]

Nominating either spritz to A or snubs to A+, snubs is easily as good as spritzee as spritzee kills momentum completely and is generally a bad option for offensively oriented teams, even though it can heal. Comparatively, everything else in A+ can fit onto most teams.

You're overlooking the CM Spritzee set which is incredibly effective. While Snubbull might be about equal in a defensive role (though lack of reliable recovery sucks) and better as support due to its movepool, Spritzee has the ability to have a significantly more threatening offensive presence.

There's also the fact that spritzee has absurd bulk, and Snubbull has bulk that's made good by intimidate. It's not a slouch in its defensive stats, but when there's no intimidate help and factoring in Bull's lack of recovery it hurts. Spritzee should remain a subrank above Snubbull.

 

[tazz]

You're overlooking the CM Spritzee set which is incredibly effective. While Snubbull might be about equal in a defensive role (though lack of reliable recovery sucks) and better as support due to its movepool, Spritzee has the ability to have a significantly more threatening offensive presence.

There's also the fact that spritzee has absurd bulk, and Snubbull has bulk that's made good by intimidate. It's not a slouch in its defensive stats, but when there's no intimidate help and factoring in Bull's lack of recovery it hurts. Spritzee should remain a subrank above Snubbull.

Except that with the CM set it's still only threatening late game as it only has moonblast to hit stuff with letting any steel/poison come in for free, losing momentum. Snubs has much better offensive presence, as most teams have nothing that can switch in that won't take a lot of damage.

Edit: also wtf is anorith still doing in C-

 

[Celestavian]

Did I just hear "Spritzee has the ability to have a significantly more threatening offensive presence" than Snubbull? Are you joking? CM Spritzee can, theoretically, become more powerful than Snubbull after at least two boosts, but don't forget offensive presence isn't all about power. With Earthquake and Thief as coverage to smack things like Pawniard, Skrelp, and Gastly who otherwise are pretty good switch-ins to Fairy-types, Snubbull is way more offensively potent than Spritzee is without a lot of boosts. In addition, Snubbull has much higher immediate power with most sets having 18 Attack as opposed to Spritzee's 13 Special Attack, so Spritzee needs to forgo Aromatherapy for Calm Mind to be as much of a threat as Snubbull, further weakening its support potential. I say that Snubbull and Spritzee are opposite yet equal forces, in that Spritzee is the best defensive Fairy and Snubbull is the best offensive one, and they are equally good at each of those roles along with doing stuff like countering Fighting-types which Fairies are supposed to do.

 

[Berks]

Did I just hear "Spritzee has the ability to have a significantly more threatening offensive presence" than Snubbull? Are you joking? CM Spritzee can, theoretically, become more powerful than Snubbull after at least two boosts, but don't forget offensive presence isn't all about power. With Earthquake and Thief as coverage to smack things like Pawniard, Skrelp, and Gastly who otherwise are pretty good switch-ins to Fairy-types, Snubbull is way more offensively potent than Spritzee is without a lot of boosts. In addition, Snubbull has much higher immediate power with most sets having 18 Attack as opposed to Spritzee's 13 Special Attack, so Spritzee needs to forgo Aromatherapy for Calm Mind to be as much of a threat as Snubbull, further weakening its support potential. I say that Snubbull and Spritzee are opposite yet equal forces, in that Spritzee is the best defensive Fairy and Snubbull is the best offensive one, and they are equally good at each of those roles along with doing stuff like countering Fighting-types which Fairies are supposed to do.

Additionally, let's not forget all-out offensive Snubbull, with Play Rough, EQ, and Close Combat at hand. Heck it could even run Bulk Up. I've been using Snubbull for so long and I've always felt that it's at least equal, especially for a team that wants to be offensive at all

 

[Iura]

Hmm you know I just woke up this morning and decided to vote on this matter because I realized this one actually matters to me.
Fletchling to A*
I really enjoy using my Fletchling as it can outpriortize and threaten so much of the metagame, any sweeper that can't take a hit from Fletchling basically has to either switch out or is dead. Even with a steel type or rock type, depending on which set the Fletchling is running it could check or even kill the check that the opponent sent out in place of the sweeper. It does has its weaknesses, such as bulk issues, over-reliance on Gale Wings, being weak to SR, and not having too strong of offensive stats. Even with those issues, its great ability and power to kill many threats(re: Mienfoo) make it a strong contender for the spot of A*.
P.S. I literally JUST woke up. If something doesn't make sense I apologize.
Lel

 

[RZL]

Okay, my reasons for Pawniard not to go down to A*.
Pawniard has the strongest Knock Off in LC, having the strongest most prevalent move is very important. It is one of the best Wall Breakers for this reason.
Pawniard is by far the best anti-Defog support. Swords Dance set can easily sweep teams once their fighting types have been weakened. Pawniard may not have many different sets, but it has many coverage moves it can run over Swords Dance such as but not limiting to; Psycho Cut, Brick Break, Pursuit, Stealth Rock, and T-wave. Pawniard may only have two prominent sets those being SD, and to a lesser extent Choice Scarf.

I am definitely not saying Pawniard is as good as Mienfoo, but I would not like Pawniard to be short changed, as it far exceeds the other Pokemon nominated for A*.