Magneton Suspect Discussion Thread

[HJAD]

I think you're exaggerating more and more. Now you're saying that if you don't have one of those pokemon in your team you're going to lose automatically against a team with a Magneton. I'm sure you are not that bad. It feels like you just want to have easier wins. Anyways, I'll post again the other reliable pokemon you could use but you don't want to mention in your argument: Vileplume, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Musharna, Audino, Kecleon and Roselia. Those are the ones that have good recovery. Of course, you can also use specially defensive SleepTalkers. With this, and counting the already mentioned checks, I wanted to make clear that there are a lot of options. We need to stop banning things just for being powerful special attackers at any point.
I hope this doesn't get deleted again under the pretext of "lack of knowledge of subject material" since I already have the reqs.

Flowre, for this time, can you please listen to our points?
The reason we pass off stunfisk, lanturn, evire and torterra as the only counters, is because they are the only mons that are IMMUNE to volt switch, and have a good chance to live Magnetons coverage options (Flash Cannon, HP Ground, HP Grass, etc)
The reason everyone isn't spamming Roselia or something like that with Magnetons existence is not because it isn't capable of living magnetons hits, its quite simply for the fact it isn't immune to volt switch. Yes, volt switch really is that important. It gives you initiative and immediately threaten your ~specially defensive switch-in~ with the next Mon in that guys team.
What happens now? You have to switch in your next wall.
Its a massive chain of effects that ends with your defensive core broken.

I'm sure your a good battler, you have got reqs, but tbh, having reqs =/= meta knowledge, this "volt switch momentum" mechanic is quite commonly conceived as quite important and basic, I'm just quoting Mont at this point, but it does lead to people not thinking you have meta knowledge which you do.

 

[flowre]

And those stop Volt Switching how?

You're missing out on an entire part of a reason that Magneton is being considered ban worthy. Any so called counter you have that cant stop volt switching isn't a counter because Magneton just Volt Switches into a more favorable matchup as you switch in, which will prevent you from recovering and then later on in the match you will be 2HKOd.

This is a pretty basic concept no matter which side you fall on, not understanding this leads other readers to believe that you don't have meta knowledge.

I will post my stancelater because I'm not 100% on the ban train.

But you have an entire team to support them. I seriously don't believe you can have so much problems against it. I think you just want it gone to play easier. If you make obvious plays of course you're gonna get in troubles against momentum.
But I won't make more comments since it's just an opinion and this won't lead anywhere.

 

[Orphic]

But you have an entire team to support them. I seriously don't believe you can have so much problems against it. I think you just want it gone to play easier. If you make obvious plays of course you're gonna get in troubles against momentum.
But I won't make more comments since it's just an opinion and this won't lead anywhere.

Well I'm sorry this is another stupid remark. You've yet again ignored the premise. The plays aren't obvious, the point is, the play to switch out is the ONLY option most of the time, or risk being OHKO'd by a thunderbolt or flash cannon, given that the Magneton user will choose his/her moments to send in Magneton at a time they can 100% force a switch and then grab momentum or click *coverage move*. Having 'an entire team to support them', is ridiculous, when that whole team is susceptible to volt switch.

I have to ask you, do you seriously not have trouble switching out of magneton into a non-ground type? Do you really not have them volt switch straight into something else that either destroys you, or forces another switch? Because if so, you're the only person that doesn't have this problem. Magneton's power on it's own is not what's causing this suspect test, because frankly as Quite Quiet said, it's not all that different to other strong special attackers. What is causing this test is the variety of sets Magneton can run that all make teambuilding far too restrictive. The point here is that, as HJAD rightly pointed out, and as you thoroughly ignored, there are only 4 mons that reliably switch into volt switch, and don't get completely destroyed by Magneton's coverage (I've even been running specs Signal Beam to beat SpD Malamar). Those mons, if not on all teams you make, will mean you have a large chance to die to team match up. Not to mention, Torterra cannot switch in on multiple HP Ice's. Lanturn, Stunfisk and EVire all cannot reliably switch in on HP Ground, so tell me, what's your strategy now? Please don't talk to me about Magneton's speed tier, that's not a factor at all, since without one of those 4 mons, Magneton can come in on a forced switch and grab a kill EVERY TIME. Seriously, show me a replay or something where you handle magneton by making clever plays and not "obvious plays", Magneton is that user friendly, its an easy tactic, just click Volt Switch. By now I'm ranting because this has really bugged me so this is where I'll leave it, flowre, please take my points on board.

 

[The Goomy]

Now you're saying that if you don't have one of those pokemon in your team you're going to lose automatically against a team with a Magneton.

I didn't say this. Thanks for putting words into my mouth.

Vileplume, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Musharna, Audino, Kecleon and Roselia.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Oh yay. I can't have any previous damage and I'm forced to give the opponent a free switch while I synthesis and I can't actually hit it back anyway!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 220-261 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can switch in, but once again you have to give the opponent either a free switch in or don't heal at all.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 171-202 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If you're using Lickitung, that's a sign of a seriously unhealthy meta.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
OH MAN it can do so much back with Psychic! And it can totally Calm Mind on this. And it totally won't have to waste all of its Moonlight PP!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 235-277 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Wait what is this doing back?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Kecleon: 253-298 (86 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
K. And this outspeeds and kills? Or are you going for Recover..while magically outspeeding..and also holding AV...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I enjoy using outclassed Pokemon too!

Those are the ones that have good recovery.

So your options are...go for recovery move and give the opponent a free switch...or let your magnets "counter" get weakened. Ok.

So those calcs are the WORST case scenario.

If you're using one of those Pokemon as your magnets "counter"...the opponent literally loses nothing from clicking Volt Switch every time. And slowly breaking your "counter" and going into another threat that beats your "counter". It's really not that hard. Regardless, if you run a Ground Type in conjunction with these mons, unless you're running Torterra, Stunfisk, or (Lanturn), the magnets user always has the advantage b/c basically every other ground type in the tier gets annihilated by Flash Cannon, which, by the way is normally a good play against your "counters" anyway.

But Steven, you can't always assume magnets are in safely!

You actually can. It's extremely common on Voltturn, and it's incredible typing gives it many opportunities to switch in, and it's bulk allows it to be difficult to checked by much of the meta.

Of course, you can also use specially defensive SleepTalkers.

What...? The only semi-viable one's I can think of give the opponent so much momentum anyway, and ALSO AREN'T GROUND TYPES.

Resttalk Vibrava new meta.

since I already have the reqs.

Ah, because that's difficult.

 

[Punchshroom]

lol why is everyone bashing on flowre?

Because flowre isn't applying what you have there in your avatar.

Basically this has been repeated several times already: specially defensive Pokemon don't work as Magneton counters if they don't have an Electric immunity or easy passive recovery. These are the total list of Pokemon that can afford to switch into Magneton over and over while not completely forking over momentum:

- Lanturn
- Stunfisk
- Specially Defensive Torterra (other Torterra variants won't work, and Torterra with prior damage could very well lose if it switches directly into a Flash Cannon)
- Quagsire (assuming no HP Grass)
~ Specially Defensive Regenerator Audino (a very arguable case, as it only keeps up with Magneton's Volt Switches by healing via switching out immediately, and assuming you have Audinite, Audino won't actually heal off all the damage from Specs Magneton in the first place; also Audino is kind of known for forking over momentum anyway, especially if it cannot Wish in time)

Every other specially defensive Pokemon that isn't immune to Volt Switch would find themselves face to face with something like Sawk, Sneasel, Zangoose, etc. (aka stuff that can actually keep the pressure on the foe, which I think flowre has the "fortune" of not yet encountering for some reason; how the fuk else did he get reqs and not bump into this issue), that immediately forces them out and denies any healing opportunities, keeping them weakened enough for Magneton to eventually break through. Magneton's sheer strength means it only needs to do this like 2-3 times.

But you have an entire team to support them

So does Magneton, and Magneton has an easier time making use of its team support since it not only pivots out easily to them, but does a nice chunk of damage to opponents in the process, softening them up for its teammates.

No, you don't "auto-lose" against Magneton if you don't carry those counters, but expect an uphill battle against it (which is what I assume The Goomy implied), especially if it happens to be a variant that threatens your team (Magneton has the sets to threaten any kind of inadequately prepared team); if it can't just Volt Switch all over your team, all it has to do is just pick the right coverage move to smack your Rhydon / Electivire / whatever soft check you carry. And no, packing specially bulky Pokemon does not count as 'adequately prepared', it merely prolongs the process of Magneton breaking down your team. This is not helped by the fact that not only are Magneton's true counters very limited, but they can be dealt with in more or less the same fashion (Grass-types, Freeze-Dry) since they noticeably overlap with each other (Lanturn and SpD Torterra being the only ones worlds apart, as I've seen them being run on the same team).

 

[Deeerpz]

I feel like your team is a pretty good example of how overcentralizing Magneton is, though. You run two eletric immunities, one of which is Quagsire (which I feel hasn't gotten enough recognition in this threat, partially due to the existence of HP Grass I guess), a SpDef Lickilicky and a Protect Vileplume. If I saw this team in a RMT not knowing it was yours, I would think it would be specifically designed to counter Magneton, which is something people have been complaining about: the need to either use a common counter or design your whole team around beating it.

I'm also not sure if this game is a good example. I feel like the Hidden Power against the predicted switch in was a really risky move, though you having TWO immunities kind of makes that necessary, which I guess was my point to begin with: it's tough to deny the effect Magneton has on the way teams are built when yours looks like the perfect example to prove that. The infamous momentum gain that is being complained about just didn't really occur this game because of that, too.

 

[Genesis7]

OK so I just got reqs after deciding to jump back into NU (it was my fav meta in XY) and I think I agree with the general sentiment in this thread in that magneton is broken. I just feel that it is way too restrictive on teambuilding since it completely tears through offense (which is clearly the main playstyle in NU) so I'm forced to add a check to my team, in my case I used Lanturn since I felt it had more general utility than the other mons like Stunfisk and Quagsire but I quickly found that the specs set could still 2HKO me with HP Grass so I was forced to use another mon that can handle magneton. I think there are a few things that make Magneton halfway tolerable in the tier like it's average speed stat and its predictable moveset but I don't think that's enough to make it an NU poke. In summary, Magneton is makes teambuilding too restrictive and doesn't have enough good counters/checks to keep it at bay, this is a pretty clear ban situation in my opinion.

 

[Syncrasy]

Anyways laddered for a little bit and the thing that struck me the most were how similar the team structure is. The fact that were are all running at least lanturn/stunfisk/torterra says a lot about the meta rn and i think it would be good if we banned this threat to try to be some variety in team building again.

 

[Daxix]

I've spent the last hour or so looking through multiple responses to the suspect test and it's clear that almost everyone wants this triple-magnet banned. I agree in all honesty as its solid typing and raw power means you have to have multiple responses to it. If it needs multiple counters, or seems to bring 'mons that would never see the light of day otherwise, it is over centralizing and needs to be booted. That seems to be the opinion that myself and a large percent of others have.

 

[Silver Aurum]

Yo just your average nobody here looking to post his thoughts on one of the biggest threats in the tier at the moment (magneton) Ok so I have read through almost every single post in this thread so far and for the most part I agree with the majority of reasons why this mon should be banned. On the past 2 or 3 teams I have built I have been running at least 1 of the three "counters" to Magneton. While its definitely true that you should have to prepare for top tier threats I feel that with magneton its slightly different. Its hard to put into words what I mean but I think I would say that I feel forced to build my team with the purpose of countering mageneton. For example I will basically have to run Stunfisk, Torterra, or lanturn as my dedicated switch in. Then I have to make sure I have something to pivot to in case they predict and click HP Grass/Ground/Flash cannon. Then I have to make sure I have at least one mon that can revenge kill it safely. Then I have to make sure that in case my dedicated counter dies I have at least a soft check to it. In my honest opinion Magneton is in fact manageable. This does not mean however that it is healthy in any way. The fact that I have to warp my whole way of team building just to account for this one mon should be proof of how unhealthy it is. This is a little bit of an exaggeration I can admit that but I really find its existence warps the whole meta. The thing that makes me sad though is the hostility in this thread at the moment. I can agree that the points flowre makes are not completely solid I also believe that the way the thread handles the situation isnt exactly ideal. Of course im not pinning the blame on anyone I just wish we could all try and be more respectful in the way we handle situations like this and how we post our thoughts/opinions in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to read this if anyone actually made it through to the end. Please note that this is just my opinion and should not be taken personally ^_^

 

[Deej Dy]

I figured I'd put my thoughts on the Magneton Suspect into a short rap:

No Mercy From Magneton
Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon

Shockin people with Steel Electric STAB, coverage Grass and Ground
Stealin skill and sanity, makin' freedom of teambuilding bound
Knockin down your threats like the walls of Jericho
Volt switch on ya Spc Def bitch, I win every scenario

Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon

Cuz I roll on the stall, I roll on the balance
Like HJAD rain, I require no talents

-Volt Switch I'm out

 

[Evan.]

I figured I'd put my thoughts on the Magneton Suspect into a short rap:

No Mercy From Magneton
Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon

Shockin people with Steel Electric STAB, coverage Grass and Ground
Stealin skill and sanity, makin' freedom of teambuilding bound
Knockin down your threats like the walls of Jericho
Volt switch on ya Spc Def bitch, I win every scenario

Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon
Cuz I roll on the stall, I roll on the balance
Like HJAD rain, I require no talents

-Volt Switch I'm out

http://niceme.me

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

I figured I'd put my thoughts on the Magneton Suspect into a short rap:

No Mercy From Magneton
Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon

Shockin people with Steel Electric STAB, coverage Grass and Ground
Stealin skill and sanity, makin' freedom of teambuilding bound
Knockin down your threats like the walls of Jericho
Volt switch on ya Spc Def bitch, I win every scenario

Steel yo fun meta, they call me Magneton
Best run this, Stunfisk, or prepare to get shat upon
Cuz I roll on the stall, I roll on the balance
Like HJAD rain, I require no talents

-Volt Switch I'm out

trying way too hard for likes, but I like your effort

 

[Deej Dy]

trying way too hard for likes, but I like your effort

No need for hostility..Just don't like it if you don' agree/like it

 

[Transmuter]

My thoughts on this suspect test are kind of mixed so far. I came in thinking that Magneton is managable, though I can't overlook what everyone else has said which is that it heavily restricts teambuilding. Magneton is a big threat, which is why it is an S Rank pokemon, but I'm not fully convinced it's ban-worthy yet. It has great offensive capabilities, good defensive typing (though being kind of frail, unless eviolite), and the thing that makes it scary is the ability to gain momentum via Volt Switch when facing a specially bulky pokemon. A lot of people have already pointed out why Magneton should be banned so I'm not going to repeat the same things. I'm just going to say that from my experience on the suspect ladder, I didn't have much trouble against it and I got reqs with a team that doesn't have any of its checks/counters (Lanturn, Stunfisk, Torterra, Electivire, Quagsire). Only thing I had against it was my own Magnet Pull HP Ground Magneton and a 248 HP Eviolite Gurdurr. Gurdurr could eat anything Specs Magneton has against it and OHKO it with Drain Punch (that's if it stayed in), or predict Volt Switch (which does around 55-65%) and go for Knock Off hitting anything that comes in (if you mispredict and he goes for TBolt, you still live with 20-30% and go for Mach Punch which kills after damage from Knock Off). I do realise what I'm saying isn't really countering Magneton as well as a Stunfisk or a Lanturn would, but I think there are still viable options against it without needing to resort to one of those mons. So overall, I think Magneton does screw you over if you don't prepare for it, but that's not a reason for a ban. You have to prepare for every top tier threat, it's just that Magneton seems broken on paper but from my experience I believe it can be handled due to its mediocre speed and bulk (unless scarf or eviolite, which then gives up its power and becomes less of a threat), and the fact that it can't switch in to anything other than maybe Fletchinder and Scyther. So yea, I think I'll be one of the few people to vote NO BAN here, though not sure as of yet.

 

[marilli]

I am also going to take the less defended side so far and say the extent people say you have to prepare for Magneton (or lose immediately) is unnecessary. Yes, there's very few switches that are near foolproof. But then, there's a ton of Pokemon without foolproof switches. Especially one as slow and frail as Specs Magneton. In fact, Pokemon such as Specs Rotom also have no foolproof switches, and I believe it's even harder to stop Specs Rotom's volt switches because it beats things like Stunfisk and Lanturn switch-ins with its secondary STAB move, so it requires even less prediction. Rotom actually outspeeds most of the metagame, has equally amazing defensive typing, has a legitimate "bulky" set that cripples checks with Will-O-Wisp + Hex set, and trolls offense pretty hard with Scarf set as well. It's impossible to counter specs rotom on paper, just like Specs Magneton. I think in fact it's harder to counter Specs rotom in paper, lol.

If magneton is broken, you're going to have to show what makes it broken beyond "it's nearly impossible to switch in because it'll just volt switch out of unfavorable matchups." In similar vein, U-turn Archeops also has no counters and is impossible to counter. So does V-Switch Evire, lol. It doesn't make it broken for all the reasons we know. There must be some reasons beyond the fact that Volt Switch makes hard to have hard counters (and I think there may be, so please provide some.) At the moment the whole thread mostly talks about how it's impossible to switch into without having 3 Pokemon. That's not true. Other than applying offensive pressure, or having no Pokemon that get forced out immediately by Magneton. This is equivalent to essentially fully counterteaming vs. 1 Pokemon but it is a great way to avert the Magneton crisis because you don't get forced to switch and that analytic volt switch doesn't come into play that often. If you choose not to fully counterteam, you have nearly hard counters in Lanturn, Evire, Quagsire, Stunfisk, Vibrava, and Torterra that can feasibly switch into both STABs and force it to make dangerous prediction. Given how frail Specs Magneton is, it usually cannot take 2 hits if it mispredicts and goes for Hidden Power, unless it's pitted against something that cannot threaten Magneton at all. If you carry things that cannot threaten Magnet at all, you need to have at least one of those 5-6 Pokemon, or be forced into dangerous prediction games: this is more accurate representation of the current meta, not "carry these 3 or lose."

I'm not saying Magneton is bad, I'm just saying we need to clarify the realistic effect of Magneton on the metagame. This is still pretty limiting, so there's still room for argument. By exaggerating you get people like so-and-so who are not convinced - because it isn't quite true. There's plenty of arguments without exaggerating. I mean, the other way I mentioned is kind of obvious so thats why no one mentioned it I guess, but some people need it spelt out, haha.

Also I'm starting to think bunch of these balance builders are incredibly selfish. lo!L Yall keep looking for Pokemon that hard counter all the biggest threats so you can avert crisis without sustaining any damage. This is pokemon, it's impossible to prevent all the big threats from making any progress on your team ffs. If you could do that, the game wouldn't be quite fun lol.

 

[Tom Bus]

I think Magneton deserves to be banned. It's not fair to say "it has volt switch, so its non-ground counters just get worn down", but volt switch is an important part of why it needs to be banned. You are essentially forced to use Lanturn/Stunfisk/Torterra (although specs flash cannon can 2HKO Torterra with analytic on the first hit) to block volt switch, and then maybe a second bulky mon like Audino to switch into moves directed at your volt switch immunity. This seems overcentralising to me. It's worth noting that Lanturn and Stunfisk lack reliable recovery, so you sort of need wish support, too. There is also Magneton's fantastic defensive typing that allows it to switch in on a lot of flying, bug, grass, and psychic types, amongst others, and proceed to deal damage. A resistance to rocks makes Magneton difficult to wear down, although spikes hit it hard.

Together, I think it's a combination of overcentralisation, lack of counters, and ability to outlast its counters that makes Mag broken. Hollywood also made a good point that all of its checks/counters are exploitable by grass types like Cacturne, so Magneton often provides the Magneton user with 'free' momentum.

 

[Hogg]

Disclaimer: I did not play NU prior to the suspect test. I'm primarily a UU and older gens player. I watched a lot of tour battles both pre- and post- drop to try to familiarize myself with the meta, and I've been meaning to get into NU for a while, but I may not have as solid an understanding of the meta as someone who has been playing it this whole time.

So, after finally getting reqs and watching the lower tier tours, I think I can say that Magneton is almost certainly too much for NU. Base 120 SpAt plus Analytics plus a momentum grabbing move is simply too much for the tier, especially on a pokemon with solid bulk and defensive typing.

Does Magneton overly restrict teambuilding? I know that suspect ladders make this hard to judge, since people tend to overprepare for threats, but yeah, I'd say it does. The top of the suspect ladder is nothing but Lanturn, Stunfisk and Torterra. I know that these would be solid 'mons without Magneton, but the degree to which they're being used right now doesn't come remotely close to their usage before Magneton dropped. Lanturn is the only one that had anything resembling decent usage before the Magneton drop, and while the departure of Seismitoad almost certainly accounts for some of the Stunfisks and Torterras we're seeing, their rises are nothing short of meteoric.

Of course, while playing, the presence of these "counters" didn't actually stop Magneton in practice. Many of the counters were fairly easy to pressure with VoltTurn and hazards, to the point where they no longer countered at all. And softer answers to Magneton just didn't cut it at all, thanks to the huge amount of damage Specs Analytic Volt Switch does even to a resist. Magneton doesn't require elaborate setup or team support, nor is it difficult to play - you slap him on a team and click Volt Switch a bunch of times.

This wasn't the case of Magneton just being a really good 'mon that I had to prep for. When an opposing team had a Magneton, it was the single most dangerous threat their team contained, and I had to focus heavily on keeping my Mag answer alive or else I just straight up lost. When an opposing team lacked Stunfisk/Torterra/Lanturn, my own Magneton consistently put in huge amounts of work and almost always was a major part in any Ws my team racked up. I did not see a single other pokemon pose anywhere near the threat that Magneton did. (No, other strong Volt Switchers don't come close, mainly because Magneton's Analytics-boosted Volt Switch consistently does >30% to specially defensive resists, so if I don't have a flat immunity, my resist can only reliably switch in once or twice.)

I really enjoyed playing NU this weekend, and plan to return to the tier after this suspect test is over - seems like a cool meta overall. But Magneton definitely feels like it's too much for the tier.

 

[Punchshroom]

I am also going to take the less defended side so far and say the extent people say you have to prepare for Magneton (or lose immediately) is unnecessary. Yes, there's very few switches that are near foolproof. But then, there's a ton of Pokemon without foolproof switches. Especially one as slow and frail as Specs Magneton. In fact, Pokemon such as Specs Rotom also have no foolproof switches, and I believe it's even harder to stop Specs Rotom's volt switches because it beats things like Stunfisk and Lanturn switch-ins with its secondary STAB move, so it requires even less prediction. Rotom actually outspeeds most of the metagame, has equally amazing defensive typing, has a legitimate "bulky" set that cripples checks with Will-O-Wisp + Hex set, and trolls offense pretty hard with Scarf set as well. It's impossible to counter specs rotom on paper, just like Specs Magneton. I think in fact it's harder to counter Specs rotom in paper, lol.

252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 210-247 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 213-252 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 349-412 (133.7 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Between Magneton's already impressive Special Attack and Analytic, Magneton already bridges the gap in power between itself and Specs Rotom. So if you equip it with a Scarf, you get to harass offense while packing the power of Specs Rotom. Or you can put an Eviolite on it to bulk it up if you so wish while giving it the ability to switch moves. Specs Rotom might be harder to counter on paper (though bulky Grounds such as Rhydon, Piloswine, and SpD Torterra would force Specs Rotom to make more predictions than Magneton), but Magneton yields so many comparative advantages in each set, and it's very versatile in function despite its extremely linear movepool. Of course, this by itself is not a banworthy quality.

If magneton is broken, you're going to have to show what makes it broken beyond "it's nearly impossible to switch in because it'll just volt switch out of unfavorable matchups." In similar vein, U-turn Archeops also has no counters and is impossible to counter. So does V-Switch Evire, lol. It doesn't make it broken for all the reasons we know. There must be some reasons beyond the fact that Volt Switch makes hard to have hard counters (and I think there may be, so please provide some.) At the moment the whole thread mostly talks about how it's impossible to switch into without having 3 Pokemon. That's not true. Other than applying offensive pressure, or having no Pokemon that get forced out immediately by Magneton. This is equivalent to essentially fully counterteaming vs. 1 Pokemon but it is a great way to avert the Magneton crisis because you don't get forced to switch and that analytic volt switch doesn't come into play that often. If you choose not to fully counterteam, you have nearly hard counters in Lanturn, Evire, Quagsire, Stunfisk, Vibrava, and Torterra that can feasibly switch into both STABs and force it to make dangerous prediction. Given how frail Specs Magneton is, it usually cannot take 2 hits if it mispredicts and goes for Hidden Power, unless it's pitted against something that cannot threaten Magneton at all. If you carry things that cannot threaten Magnet at all, you need to have at least one of those 5-6 Pokemon, or be forced into dangerous prediction games: this is more accurate representation of the current meta, not "carry these 3 or lose."

The biggest factor for the Magneton outcry is the sheer power of its pivoting move, and how difficult it is to stop it from racking up the damage it does; this was part of the basis for the Heliolisk ban as well. U-turn Archeops and Volt Switch EVire may not have "counters" (obviously more debatable in EVire's case, surprised you didn't just use your Rotom example here), but at least their pivoting move doesn't help them wear down their switch-ins so easily to the point that they can beat them after a few tries. It will take ages for Archeops to begin tackling the bulky Rock-types that switch into it after repeated U-turns, and in EVire's case Volt Switch won't be helping it beat down fatmons like Uxie and Mega Audino in a hurry. In the case of Magneton (in this particular instance Specs), any non-immune Pokemon would be feeling the effects of the Volt Switch very quickly. To put it into perspective: Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Audino and physically defensive Vileplume take a whopping 1/3 from Specs Analytic Volt Switch, so there's absolutely no half-assing against that kind of damage as most switch-ins get worn down in due time (being like ~1-2 uses because FUK that's strong). This is not even considering any predictions that could be pulled by Magneton to speed up the process. The move itself also has plenty of killing power, unlike U-turn Archeops and VSwitch EVire, so there is much less risk involved for Magneton as well. Again, that is the primary reason people insist on hard counters, and even some of those you listed are only hard checks: EVire can get destroyed on the switch by Hidden Power Ground or even simply 2HKOed by anything non-immune, Quagsire must always be wary about the possibility of HP Grass (which is a perfectly legit option for Magneton), Stunfisk may get the tables turned on it by Magnet Rise Evio Magneton (can replace Thunderbolt, because by the time you want to attack with Volt Switch you shouldn't be facing a Ground mon anyway), and Vibrava can't even switch into Specs Analytic Flash Cannon wut. Basically Lanturn and SpD Torterra are the hardest Magneton counters.

I'm not saying Magneton is bad, I'm just saying we need to clarify the realistic effect of Magneton on the metagame. This is still pretty limiting, so there's still room for argument. By exaggerating you get people like so-and-so who are not convinced - because it isn't quite true. There's plenty of arguments without exaggerating. I mean, the other way I mentioned is kind of obvious so thats why no one mentioned it I guess, but some people need it spelt out, haha.

Also I'm starting to think bunch of these balance builders are incredibly selfish. lo!L Yall keep looking for Pokemon that hard counter all the biggest threats so you can avert crisis without sustaining any damage. This is pokemon, it's impossible to prevent all the big threats from making any progress on your team ffs. If you could do that, the game wouldn't be quite fun lol.

Now I don't play balance too much, but this statement is pretty unfair to those balance players who voiced their concerns about Magneton: they most likely acknowledge that hard counters to Magneton do exist and that you don't need like more than one of them to handle Magneton, plus I would imagine they have bigger things to worry about (Magmortar comes to mind). In fact I think the bigger issue is that Magneton is not just affecting balance, but most playstyles out there, as Scarf can give offense a run for its money with its speed and power (something Scarf Rotom notably doesn't excel in), Specs you know what it does, and Evio can be tailormade to fuk with people who counter it with the hopes that it is Choiced all the time while still being reasonably effective. Because of this, the sheer influx of Lanturns, Stunfisks, Torterras, etc. in most teams (not just balance, even apparently offensive teams tends to run one of these) is the realistic effect of Magneton on the meta, and I'm pretty sure most teams (again, not just balance) would highly appreciate the breathing room for teambuilding again.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Ok, now that the suspect test has gone on for a while and I've played enough on this ladder that my alt nearly has the reqs too I feel like I should expand on the brief thoughts I posted at the start of the test.

I'll start by talking about something that I usually ignore during discussions like these: centralization. I'm very averse to using this as a pro-ban argument because I feel like centralization is an unavoidable aspect of competitive Pokemon. That said, the degree to which Magneton has warped the metagame around itself is staggering. Virtually every team right now is carrying a Volt Switch blocker and pivots for Magneton's coverage moves, Magneton itself is ever-present, and I've also seen an impressive number of unorthodox Magneton lure sets.

To use a recent example for comparison, many people who were pro-ban for Typhlosion based their entire stance on how centralizing despite not actually thinking it was broken. I see much more centralization in this metagame than I did while Typhlosion was in the tier, and there's enough of it that I would probably go against my usual line if thinking and vote ban largely based on this. This is something that I'm very unlikely to feel again.

However, even without taking centralization into account I think that Magneton is far too much for NU. It hits incredibly hard, with its Volt Switch both dismantling teams and creating momentum. Almost every team on ladder right now is carrying Lanturn, Stunfisk or Torterra to block these Volt Switches, with dedicated special walls serving as fodder for momentum. However, Magneton's coverage moves ensure that these aren't entirely safe switch-ins either, wearing them down into KO range after 1-2 switches even if they are EV'd specifically to withstand special attacks. Lanturn and Stunfisk also don't have consistent recovery methods to alleviate this.

Magneton also has many opportunities to switch in owing to its typing giving it 11 resistances and 1 immunity, in combination with the decent physical bulk of the Choice sets and the respectable overall bulk of the Eviolite set. It really leans hard on its typing without Eviolite, but that works for it. I was able to consistently switch in on several Pokemon running Magneton (Fletchinder, M-Audino, Uxie, Xatu, Mawile, Musharna, etc.) barring lure sets (gotta git that overheat fletchinder) and could find many other opportunities to switch in by predicting resisted moves from things like Scyther, Garbodor or Granbull.

Magneton's typing also grants it resistance to Stealth Rock, allowing it to switch in and out repeatedly under most circumstances. This combined with the raw power of its Volt Switch is what sets it apart from other Pokemon that can create momentum, allowing it to wear down the opposing team at a much faster pace than it can be worn down itself.

Immunity to Thunder Wave and Toxic is also very helpful, and while the chip damage from burn can be useful it doesn't cut back the heavy damage of its moves. It also has 3 viable abilities and can alter its role a bit based on its item (Specs does well against balance, Scarf excels against hyper offense, Eviolite lets it pivot better and allows move variation). Item and HP selection for Magneton allow it mindgame the opponent to an extent. (Though it's far from unpredictable considering that 3 of its moveslots are nearly always the same so pls don't say that,,,)

It just has way too many things going for it to be in this tier, IMO.

TL,DR: I went into this leaning ban, laddering has reinforced my decision, for the first and probably last time since I started playing comp Pokemon I'm feeling a banworthy degree of centralization from something

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

So I got reqs a few days ago, and as I was playing my way through the trash we call a suspect ladder, I started seeing Magneton as not 'completely broken', just a really good pokemon. The thing I found is that Magneton is a really predictable mon, it has the same 4-5 moves (Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, Volt Switch, Hidden Power Ground/Grass) on every set and cannot really 'lure' anything due to it needing this moves in order for it to make it into the threat that it is.
Yes, it may feel like you're forced to run a Lanturn, Stunfisk or Torterra on your team, but they aren't exactly bad pokemon; Lanturn is a great bulky pivot, and Stunfisk + Torterra both get access to Stealth Rock, so it's not like we're using really niche stuff to beat it, unlike some of the past suspects we've had. I just feel like I was too biased at first, but it's not that bad, the base speed is what holds it back from being completely disgusting in this tier.
I'm still keeping an open mind about it, so I don't know what my final decision will be.

Oh, and SpDef Audino is a check bcuz it can regen some of the damage back.

 

[Shaneghoul]

Going into the suspect test i was very pro ban on magneton as it heavily restricted teambuilding and forced me to run the same mons on every team. After getting reqs i still have this same view. There are very few checks to it and no real counters to it. Stunfisk and lanturn can somewhat deal with it but even they take massive damage from specs analytic hp grass/ground and since lefties are their only means of recovery they get worn down very quickly. Sp def terra can check it but even that can't come in on a specs analytic flash cannon. If you don't have any of these mons on your team it's very difficult to deal with as it comes and very often get momentum with volt switch or a kill with flash cannon. Seeing lanturn nearly every game has reinforced my decision. Voting ban.

 

[Wanka]

54 battles later...

Does magneton restrict teambuilding?
Do I think it restricts it to an insane magnitude? No. But the fact of the matter is that it does and that is all that matters. I saw lanturn on literally 95% of teams I battled and dont get me wrong lanturn is a good poke but when ur seeing lanturn and quagsire on every damn team it kinda puts in the mindset that magneton is always on people's minds whens teambuilding and they NEED cover it. When this is happening it usually means a mon is not necessarily healthy for certain playstyles.

Does magneton make any one playstyle unviable?
In terms of offense, No, offense deals with magneton quite nicely. Whether or not offense deals with it does not really matter too much though although it is a valid argument. When a mon is hindering a play style like balance to the extent it's doing so, the outside sources don't come into play as much as one mon making a play style simply bad just is not healthy.

Metagame trends
As far as the actual ladder went, there was a lot of over preparing for mag which is normal for a suspect especially when the pro ban side was so apparent like it was especially in the beginning stages. Like I said before, almost every team had either a magneton or a quagsire and I saw a good chunck of ferroseeds as well. I honestly did not notice any real offensive builds tbh (then again I dont know the tier as well so maybe I just didn't notice.) Since there was not as much offense I feel that it definitely had a bigger impact to show its effect on balance time and time again.

Offense is definitely a good way of beating mag but I think it has too big of an impact on balance to make it healthy. BAN LIL MAGNET FAM.

 

[Empress]

No sense in beating a dead horse, but I might as well share my thoughts on Magneton.

Is Magneton unhealthily restrictive to teambuilding? Yes, in the same way that Typhlosion was. Similarly to how you saw AV Hariyama on damn near every team to deal with Typh, you see Torterra/Stunfisk/Lanturn on damn near every team in today's metagame, as has been stated countless times already. While Torterra/Stunfisk/Lanturn are certainly viable Pokemon in today's metagame, the fact that Magneton skews teambuilding toward itself so strongly is an indicator that it may be unhealthy for the metagame. See: Aegislash in addition to Typh.

Is Magneton too powerful for the tier? Yeah; afaik it can 2HKO a vast majority of the metagame. While Magneton's raw power isn't necessarily a legitimate reason to say that it is too strong for the tier, the ability to mindlessly smash through much of the NU metagame with almost no drawbacks cannot be considered healthy.

I'll need more time to continue to formulate my opinions and read the arguments of others, but for the time being I'll be voting to ban Magneton.

 

[Tomahawk]

Still a bit undecided, though I am leaning towards ban right now. I haven't really used stall, nor am I really interested but this thing is quite good. Honestly, now that I have reqs I'm just gonna try to abuse this guy in any way possible without caring about winning or losing to see what it can do. From my experience so far though, it is really strong and versatile.

I'm not sure if there's a single set I'd say that is broken by itself, though Choice Specs is probably the strongest set. In fact, it forces balanced teams to use Stunfisk / Lanturn which is rather annoying. Also, both of these don't have recovery and I have a feeling that this can be easily abused, which I'm gonna try in the next couple of days. Just use a team with Stealth Rock + Spikes or Toxic Spikes, and hit the incredibly predictable switchin once with a Hidden Power Ground. This is still a choiced set though and therefore you can play around it.

A problem to me is also the other sets that exist. This is especially true when playing offense vs Magneton. This thing is still really good vs offense imo. Specs still OHKOes a lot of things, and for me having to build a team where every member can OHKO Magneton isn't an option. It's not that bulky, but it has great typing and it can come in quite often. Especially if it's Eviolite. Then the worst thing is when you are forced to stay in vs Magneton to avoid it getting a free KO, and it's Choice Scarf and it KOes regardless.

Also there's the other abilities of course. Magnet Pull is good, Sturdy + Custap.. I'm not sure. It might be great though, gotta try it.

Still have a few days to consider this fortunately. My main problem with banning this right now is that its most broken set (according to most) is Choice-locked and slow. That makes it even abusable at times.