Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Unlucky Desperado]

Manaphy for S

There are lot of things wrong with GuatemalaPartiratuculo 's post. Manaphy is a fearsome stall and balance breaker. Keldeo is a great pokemon that fits on offense. Its Specs set hits strong, its Scarf set is a revenge killer and its SubCM set can hurt stall teams also. The problem with Keldeo's Choice sets is that it isn't able to switch up moves, while Manaphy, who has superior coverage moves, can. The fact that Manaphy needs to set up shouldn't hurt it. There are many things it can set up on, such as Hippowdon, non Solar Beam Heatran, and bulky Garchomp. Passive pokemon that are commonly on balanced and stall builds are way more scared of Manaphy than Keldeo. Not relevant to Manaphy's ranking but Azumarill can't exactly break Stall, Balance, or Offense alone. Versus offense there is a lot of pressure on it to prevent set up, vs balance and stall there are definitely checks to it.

Moving on to the actual Manaphy discussion, it has three sets. Tail Glow + 3 attacks, Tail Glow + RD + 2 attacks, and CM rest. Tail Glow + 3 attacks Manaphy versus offense can fire off some attacks. Very rarely can it Tail Glow and expect to sweep. Manaphy gets so many switch ins versus balance and stall. Personally I'm scared of using balance and stall because of Manaphy. Moving on to Tail Glow + RD + 2 attacks, this set is probably equally effective versus offense simply because it has the same fire power. Even if it loses a coverage move, Manaphy is able to fire off stronger Scalds and recover from annoying status. Not as effective versus balance and stall simply because it lacks a coverage move, but its not bad. In my opinion, CM Rest is the best set simply because it is effective versus all playstyles. It has the bulk to switch in to Pokemon like Weavile and non Specs Keldeo After it is able to set up 1 or 2 Calm Minds, moves that would hit it super effectively don't do much and allows Manaphy to Rest up. This Manaphy is most similar to CroCune, but it doesn't have to rely on Sleep Talk roles and has more offensive presence (relatively). Stall is pretty helpless versus this set as it is with TG + 3 attacks.

It has so many benefits such as firing off Scalds, threatening 2 playstyles and its only flaws are its relatively weak power without TG/CM, its slow speed, and Rain Dance neccessary to utilize Rest/Hydration

 

[teamsnickers]

Manaphy should stay A plus...While the points brought up on manaphy have been solid, this thing is the best wallbreaker with the littlest cost of using him, there's some battles where manaphy is almost useless, which is not s rank material. Most times manaphy is used, is when ho teams need a mon who can kill fat pokes, which is what manaphy does so well, we all know about TG and its great coverage and all of that. But I cant see a mon who specializing in beating walls going to S rank, if you face a ho team odds are manaphy will not be to useful against it. 100 bst without a speed boasting move is just to slow for s rank IMO for a offensive mon. Its a AMAZING wallbreaker but IMO thats all it does great, also without a boost manaphy is pretty weak and is underwhelming.... against a good HO player manaphy shouldn't get a chance to set up and sweep
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 132-156 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


manaphy like lando i did, kills balanced teams but unlike lando i its not to useful against ho, manaphy is just not on the same level as mega alt or clefable or mega gross

 

[quagback2qc]

Manaphy should stay A plus...While the points brought up on manaphy have been solid, this thing is the best wallbreaker with the littlest cost of using him, there's some battles where manaphy is almost useless, which is not s rank material. Most times manaphy is used, is when ho teams need a mon who can kill fat pokes, which is what manaphy does so well, we all know about TG and its great coverage and all of that. But I cant see a mon who specializing in beating walls going to S rank, if you face a ho team odds are manaphy will not be to useful against it. 100 bst without a speed boasting move is just to slow for s rank IMO for a offensive mon. Its a AMAZING wallbreaker but IMO thats all it does great, also without a boost manaphy is pretty weak and is underwhelming.... against a good HO player manaphy shouldn't get a chance to set up and sweep
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 132-156 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


manaphy like lando i did, kills balanced teams but unlike lando i its not to useful against ho, manaphy is just not on the same level as mega alt or clefable or mega gross

You just brought out the most generic argument possible, while ignoring the counterpoints made. The whole "Manaphy can't beat HO so it shouldn't be S rank" bullshit needs to stop. When you realize how all of Manaphy's different sets (it only needs three) can neutralize all of balance and stall, it isn't hard to see it in S rank. What you don't realize is that once Manaphy has boosted up, it virtually 6-0's stall. It doesn't just specialize in beating walls, it specializes in crushing an entire playstyle. With the metagame shift after the suspect test, manaphy has become the Dominant wallbreaker. Your post makes it seems like wallbreakers are obsolete and unviable, when the reality is that they are a necessary part of offensive teams. This is why Manaphy should be in S rank.

Also, S Rank is Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

This describes Manaphy extremely well. It performs its role as a wallbreaker really well, making it the best wallbreaker in the meta. There is a very low risk-reward involved with using it, and its unboosted power and speed are patched up by its monstrous offensive power. It describes a substantial part of the metagame.

 

[teamsnickers]

You just brought out the most generic argument possible, while ignoring the counterpoints made. The whole "Manaphy can't beat HO so it shouldn't be S rank" bullshit needs to stop. When you realize how all of Manaphy's different sets (it only needs three) can neutralize all of balance and stall, it isn't hard to see it in S rank. What you don't realize is that once Manaphy has boosted up, it virtually 6-0's stall. It doesn't just specialize in beating walls, it specializes in crushing an entire playstyle. With the metagame shift after the suspect test, manaphy has become the Dominant wallbreaker. Your post makes it seems like wallbreakers are obsolete and unviable, when the reality is that they are a necessary part of offensive teams. This is why Manaphy should be in S rank.

Also, S Rank is Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

This describes Manaphy extremely well. It performs its role as a wallbreaker really well, making it the best wallbreaker in the meta. There is a very low risk-reward involved with using it, and its unboosted power and speed are patched up by its monstrous offensive power. It describes a substantial part of the metagame.

I didn't ignore the counterpoints made. I said its the best balanced user, but manaphy cannot beat ho, if you do the s rank def bs with manaphy, then make zard x s rank as well, make keldeo s rank again..... I only run ho and most ho teams wallbreakers that are ran, can do other things then just wall break, manaphy is the best wall breaker in the metagame without question, and without a boast its really not that powerful (base 100 special attack oh boy!!!!! So why are we making manaphy s rank, when azumarill and keldeo are slightly worse wallbreaker and are actually USEFUL against HO?

I love manaphy, but there hasn't been a realistic argument as to why manaphy should be s rank and I feel that we're lowering the standers of s rank mons...IMO keldeo and zumey do enough to stall while be extremely useful also against ho and balanced

Since when is beating stall enough to be s rank? Especially with a mon as easy to revenge as manaphy..
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 277-328 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery....... and thats the bulky manaphy set and yes ik alot of things cant switch into that but in ho this is what will come to revenge you...

 

[MANNAT]

Manaphy can take hits from mons on offense with its 100/100 bulk and OHKO with its insane coverage, so it isn't exactly useless vs offense as well as offense having 0 switch ins to a +3 manaphy.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I didn't ignore the counterpoints made. I said its the best balanced user, but manaphy cannot beat ho, if you do the s rank def bs with manaphy, then make zard x s rank as well, make keldeo s rank again..... I only run ho and most ho teams wallbreakers that are ran, can do other things then just wall break, manaphy is the best wall breaker in the metagame without question, and without a boast its raelly not that power (base 100 special attack oh boy!!!!! So why are we making manaphy s rank, when azumarill and keldeo are slightly worse wallbreaker and are actually USEFUL against HO?

You only run HO and are only interested in beating HO it seems, so yea manaphy won't stand out. But what about the fact that manaphy is better than azumarill keldeo and even megagross at breaking balanced and stall? So essentially what you are saying is that a wallbreaker has to be good at breaking HO (which is contradictory itself, since wallbreakers dont break HO, if you want to do that should just run mega manetric and lopunny, who by the way are frequently paired with manaphy) in order to be S rank? Megagross is better at beating HO sure which is why its sitting in S rank, but manaphy also breaks 2 other play styles with less standing in its way. Thats enough to put megagross and manaphy in the same category. And this is just assuming manaphy is deadweight against HO, which its not because it beats bulky chomp, beats certain pivots such as lando t, and has good bulk and typing to take a hit or two, and as bludz mentioned can lure its HO checks with Wacan berry and can run things like salac berry, even though thats usually not preferred. But the point is Manaphy is versatile enough and is the BEST at its role , that should be enough to put it into S rank, and it shouldn't be ranked with things that its superior to when roles can be compared.

 

[teamsnickers]

You only run HO and are only interested in beating HO it seems, so yea manaphy won't stand out. But what about the fact that manaphy is better than azumarill keldeo and even megagross at breaking balanced and stall? So essentially what you are saying is that a wallbreaker has to be good at breaking HO (which is contradictory itself, since wallbreakers dont break HO, if you want to do that should just run mega manetric and lopunny, who by the way are frequently paired with manaphy) in order to be S rank? Megagross is better at beating HO sure which is why its sitting in S rank, but manaphy also breaks 2 other play styles with less standing in its way. Thats enough to put megagross and manaphy in the same category. And this is just assuming manaphy is deadweight against HO, which its not because it beats bulky chomp, beats certain pivots such as lando t, and has good bulk and typing to take a hit or two, and as bludz mentioned can lure its HO checks with Wacan berry and can run things like salac berry, even though thats usually not preferred. But the point is Manaphy is versatile enough and is the BEST at its role , that should be enough to put it into S rank, and it shouldn't be ranked with things that its superior to when roles can be compared.

Its fine being in the same rank as char x and char y a plus is sacked rn actually(facepalm).... anyway balanced can also revenge manaphy, and mega gross can also beat balanced,nothing you can do against manaphy on stall, but for balanced there's plenty of ways you can switch in on it before it boost and do serious damage to it. Mega gross also has great coverage and bulk, but also great SPEED, making it harder to be revenged against balanced and ho. its a exceptional wallbreaker but can't do that much else IMO and its a great mon which is why its a plus, but you cant put it on any team like clef for example. Manaphy has pretty good bulk but its still overall a rather decently easy mon to revenge and imo thats the problem manaphy is best at breaking stall but its not versatile enough and belongs in the same rank as mons like azumarill keldeo and zard x
Manaphy is a great mon but ORAS is so effed up that we could make a legit case for banning 6 mons rn lol... so you gotta keep everything relative

 

[Vinc608]

Manaphy can take hits from mons on offense with its 100/100 bulk and OHKO with its insane coverage, so it isn't exactly useless vs offense as well as offense having 0 switch ins to a +3 manaphy.

Manaphy cannot use Tail Glow against a well-played Offensive team, because HO puts so much pressure (just pointing this). But I agree that it is bulky enough to have at least 1 kill.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Its fine being in the same rank as char x and char y a plus is sacked rn actually(facepalm).... anyway balanced can also revenge manaphy, and mega gross can also beat balanced,nothing you can do against manaphy on stall, but for balanced there's plenty of ways you can switch in on it before it boost and do serious damage to it. Mega gross also has great coverage and bulk, but also great SPEED, making it harder to be revenged against balanced and ho. its a exceptional wallbreaker but can't do that much else IMO and its a great mon which is why its a plus, but you cant put it on any team like clef for example. Manaphy has pretty good bulk but its still overall a rather decently easy mon to revenge and imo thats the problem manaphy is best at breaking stall but its not versatile enough and belongs in the same rank as mons like azumarill keldeo and zard x
Manaphy is a great mon but ORAS is so effed up that we could make a legit case for banning 6 mons rn lol... so you gotta keep everything relative

Being the best wall breaker in the tier puts it above some of the A + mons. Again Keldeo, an inferior wall breaker who yes is a bit better against offense, was an S rank mon, and char x is pretty close to being one as well. Azumarill again has some flaws, it needs more support than manaphy in breaking balance and stall, and has an even lower speed tier and relies on aqua jet to beat offense. Tail glow 3 attacks has about 2 counters on balance, both of which lose to tail glow rain dance set especially if its carrying psychic (looking at unaware clefable and mega venu). IF thats not versatility I dont know what is. Megagross trades the ability to be better against offense with manaphy for the ability to be more effective against stall and bulky balance , and is crippled by status unlike manaphy.

 

[teamsnickers]

Being the be

st wall breaker in the tier puts it above some of the A + mons. Again Keldeo, an inferior wall breaker who yes is a bit better against offense, was an S rank mon, and char x is pretty close to being one as well. Azumarill again has some flaws, it needs more support than manaphy in breaking balance and stall, and has an even lower speed tier and relies on aqua jet to beat offense. Tail glow 3 attacks has about 2 counters on balance, both of which lose to tail glow rain dance set especially if its carrying psychic (looking at unaware clefable and mega venu). IF thats not versatility I dont know what is. Megagross trades the ability to be better against offense with manaphy for the ability to be more effective against stall and bulky balance , and is crippled by status unlike manaphy.

When you think of broken mons in the tier, you think of clef mega gross mega alt and zard x before manaphy.... as Vinc said a wall placed offensive team wont let you set up we established manaphy murders stall (even thou alot of stall is running ditto now but thats pretty desperate..) stall is nota big part of the meta rn anyway and balanced manaphy is not the best against but is solid, overall its just to easy to revenge to be s rank, and without boasting its power is pretty underwhelming also wtf is going to get a will o off on mega gross unless you switch into it or you just let it will o you....


Invalidating one play style doesn't=srank

 

[Lord Xen III]

When you think of broken mons in the tier, you think of clef mega gross mega alt and zard x before manaphy.... as Vinc said a wall placed offensive team wont let you set up we established manaphy murders stall (even thou alot of stall is running ditto now but thats pretty desperate..) stall is nota big part of the meta rn anyway and balanced manaphy is not the best against but is solid, overall its just to easy to revenge to be s rank, and without boasting its power is pretty underwhelming also wtf is going to get a will o off on mega gross unless you switch into it or you just let it will o you....


Invalidating one play style doesn't=srank

Except this isn't about whats broken in the tier necessarily, its about whats the BEST in the tier. And like i said many players see manaphy as broken so you can ignore that too all you want. Stall is not a big part of the meta because you have something that flawlessly 6-0s it (manaphy), among other things like shadow tag. And did u really just manaphy is not the best against balance? I won't even address such a ludicrous statement, because its the best balance breaker in the tier. And yea megagross has to switch out and lose momentum since it will be crippled if that happens, so there is more risk to metagross, whereas manaphy can STAY IN, rain dance and proceed to to wreck stall teams and balance with its great coverage and little drawback.

 

[teamsnickers]

Except this isn't about whats broken in the tier necessarily, its about whats the BEST in the tier. And like i said many players see manaphy as broken so you can ignore that too all you want. Stall is not a big part of the meta because you have something that flawlessly 6-0s it (manaphy), among other things like shadow tag. And did u really just manaphy is not the best against balance? I won't even address such a ludicrous statement, because its the best balance breaker in the tier. And yea megagross has to switch out and lose momentum since it will be crippled if that happens, so there is more risk to metagross, whereas manaphy can STAY IN, rain dance and proceed to to wreck stall teams and balance with its great coverage and little drawback.

Char x is the best balanced breaker in the tier because its harder to revenge, idk if you married manaphy or something but its not the best in the tier mate, and everything is relative.... Manaphy is the best stall breaker in the tier but as Vinc said "Manaphy cannot use Tail Glow against a well-played Offensive team, because HO puts so much pressure " Manaphy is good against balanced but its revenged pretty easily... no one is denying manaphy is the best stall breaker lol calm down man, but that doesnt make it s rank material its a GREAT MON but not that great

Invalidating one play style doesn't=srank

 

[SketchUp]

Landorus says Hi. Landorus' AoA set also didn't murder HO, yet it was S rank (AoA + RP were S fyi) However, it did invalidate another playstyle (balance) just like Manaphy can do. Manaphy isn't completely deadweight against HO either. It is difficult to OHKO outside of stuff like LO Latios / Serp / Thundy / Kyurem-B and outside of Kyurem-B, neither of those like to switch in against an Ice Beam even unboosted. Manaphy is able to both beat stall without much troubels, while the extra coverage of Coverage Move > Rain Dance helps killing balance. I don't support Manaphy to S either teamsnickers but the argument you are using for your last 2 posts is flawed

Edit:
No, Landorus AoA set didn't murder HO. Without RP, it is very difficult to outpeed many relevant pokemon on HO and in the end it was very prediction reliant. I am not going to deny that AoA was still a big threat to HO (because it was) but it didn't murder the entire playstyle. Same situation applies to Manaphy.

 

[teamsnickers]

Landorus says Hi. Landorus' AoA set also didn't murder HO, yet it was S rank (AoA + RP were S fyi) However, it did invalidate another playstyle (balance) just like Manaphy can do. Manaphy isn't completely deadweight against HO either. It is difficult to OHKO outside of stuff like LO Latios / Serp / Thundy / Kyurem-B and outside of Kyurem-B, neither of those like to switch in against an Ice Beam even unboosted. Manaphy is able to both beat stall without much troubels, while the extra coverage of Coverage Move > Rain Dance helps killing balance. I don't support Manaphy to S either teamsnickers but the argument you are using for your last 2 posts is flawed

Landos AoA set did murder HO because of its sheer power unlike manaphy ... please dont compare the two Lando I is on a completely different level, I understand your points but lando i destroyed ****** everything
EDIT: while landos AoA set didnt 6-0 ho it was still 10000000000x better then any of manaphys sets against ho... and it 6-0ed stall AND balanced which none of manaphys sets do so.. the mons cannot be compared

 

[Lord Xen III]

Char x is the best balanced breaker in the tier because its harder to revenge, idk if you married manaphy or something but its not the best in the tier mate, and everything is relative.... Manaphy is the best stall breaker in the tier but as Vinc said "Manaphy cannot use Tail Glow against a well-played Offensive team, because HO puts so much pressure " Manaphy is good against balanced but its revenged pretty easily... no one is denying manaphy is the best stall breaker lol calm down man, but that doesnt make it s rank material its a GREAT MON but not that great
Invalidating one play style doesn't=srank

Yea, i totally married a pixelated monster. And yea you have nothing else to support your argument other than that. Zard x is weak to steath rock, takes flare blitz recoil, and is only immune to burn and can be permanetly crippled by other status like t wave, and the biggest thing you are missing out on is manaphy has a lower opportunity cost in one respect that it doesnt take up a mega slot like megagross and char x. Lando I and manaphy are comparable , and your argument that invalidating one play style cant make something S rank is refuted because lando i broke balance just as well if not better. manaphy is the best balance breaker in the current metagame, and completely oblierates stall. And yea since you like to use the argument of switching out, manaphy doesnt have to stay in on the revenge killer and it can switch out, come back and wreck.

 

[teamsnickers]

Yea, i totally married a pixelated monster. And yea you have nothing else to support your argument other than that. Zard x is weak to steath rock, takes flare blitz recoil, and is only immune to burn and can be permanetly crippled by other status like t wave, and the biggest thing you are missing out on is manaphy has a lower opportunity cost in one respect that it doesnt take up a mega slot like megagross and char x. Lando I and manaphy are comparable , and your argument that invalidating one play style cant make something S rank is refuted because lando i broke balance just as well if not better. manaphy is the best balance breaker in the current metagame, and completely oblierates stall. And yea since you like to use the argument of switching out, manaphy doesnt have to stay in on the revenge killer and it can switch out, come back and wreck.

.. hazard removal is a thing, yes manaphy has the lowest cost of using it but is also the worst at beating ho of all the mons you mentioned manaphy and lando i are only comparable based on their speed stats lando was a completely different and broken monster compared to manaphy Lando I could do SEVERE damage to all styles of play, so can megagross.... so can clefable... so can mega alt.....so can zard x,,,manaphy cant do that

 

[AM]

Lol granted its humorous but let us keep the intense sarcasms out of the debate snickers and whoever else thinks its a good idea to meme and bold all over the place.

I sort of get the whole offensive playstyle counter argument for manaphy but this isnt exactly exclusive to manaphy or really most suspects after greninja anyways, soooo this isnt a very strong point to myself. My two cents for now.

 

[Anduril]

.. hazard removal is a thing, yes manaphy has the lowest cost of using it but is also the worst at beating ho of all the mons you mentioned manaphy and lando i are only comparable based on their speed stats lando was a completely different and broken monster compared to manaphy

You cant switch out on a revenge killer or something else gets killed... Thats why its called a revenge killer.

Manaphy doesn't need to dominate all playstyles to be S. Look at the other S ranks: Mega Metagross struggles against faster teams to an extent, and Char-X against offense somewhat as well. The S rank description says "able to perform a variety of roles effectively or one extremely well. Manaphy can certainly perform one role very well in breaking balance and stall. It's one of the best breakers in the tier rn, and whether that places it in A+ or S idk. But an S ranked mon doesn't need to dominate every single playstyle.

 

[Lord Xen III]

.. hazard removal is a thing, yes manaphy has the lowest cost of using it but is also the worst at beating ho of all the mons you mentioned manaphy and lando i are only comparable based on their speed stats lando was a completely different and broken monster compared to manaphy

You cant switch out on a revenge killer or something else gets killed... Thats why its called a revenge killer.

Yea hazard removal is a thing, except that adds to the support it needs to do its job. Manaphy is neutral to SR, so you dont have to give up turns spinning or defogging as much. Lando I is on a higher level, but manaphy IS comparable, and thats why its a candidate for S rank in lando's absence. And not really, the job of the revenge killer is to remove said threat after it got a kill, but since most revenge killers cannot trap the mon they want to revenge kill, it means you can then switch to another mon that can handle said revenge killer. so then manaphy can come back in later, so if you have to rely on revenge killing to beat something , that shows how potent a threat manaphy is to balance, since nothing can reliably switch in. Your revenge typically cant switch into manaphy, so it must come in after manaphy poked holes in your defensive core. I mean you can fall back on the HO argument as much as you want, that just means manaphy has a weakness, like most of the current S rank mons do, since no mon is really perfect. But the fact that its the best at its role is what should be noted.

 

[teamsnickers]

Lol granted its humorous but let us keep the intense sarcasms out of the debate snickers and whoever else thinks its a good idea to meme and bold all over the place.

I sort of get the whole offensive playstyle counter argument for manaphy but this isnt exactly exclusive to manaphy or really most suspects after greninja anyways, soooo this isnt a very strong point to myself. My two cents for now.

alright ill take that part out now, and my only point on that is you cannot put manaphy on the same level as mons like mega alt mega gross clef and even zard x(imo) because manaphy does not destroy all styles of play which is what IMO is what a s rank mon should be in this current metagame, oras is tough there's alot of broken mons out there rn and manaphy would be s rank in any other situation rn but its just not the time...


Also to the guy that said clefable can't sweep ho, do you play mons?

 

[Srn]

My opinion on some recent topics.

Manaphy for S rank

Lol idk why people think the argument that manaphy can't do anything against offense is bad.
I mean, look at everything in the S rank right now.
Mega gross, clefable, and malt. While people may be slacking on preparing for megagross (mostly ppl just give up trying to check its diverse movepool), clefable and mega altaria may be the two pokemon offensive teams have to prepare for the most, right up there with talon imo.
In the past, S rank threats such as char-x, thundurus, keldeo, and azu (maybe it wasn't idk) have all been gigantic threats for offense, and actually, every playstyle.

My point is, S rank threats should sufficiently threaten every style, not just be amazing against one. Atleast lando-i could RP and destroy teams that were weak to exca anyway, but it still gave it a good way to boost speed and actually outspeed mons on offense.

So if we go back to manaphy, there are two main flaws that other wallbreakers have that manaphy doesn't.
1) It isn't independent
2) It has no immediate power

In regards to 1), I'm gonna immediately refer to its movepool. If we're going to choose from the set with the most options, TG+3 attacks, you need to choose between psychic, shadow ball, energy ball, ice beam, and hp fire to actually cover all the shit. No, psychic+shadow ball isn't enough, because shadow ball does jack fucking shit to ferro and psychic won't be enough to break through stuff like goodra either, u need ib for it. Yawn empoleon is a hard counter either way too...
Thus, you need teammates to take out pokemon for you. A hp fire lati for ferro, maybe a powerbeam tran for the waters like slowbro and rotom-w, or a hp flying thundy for venu. Either way, even against slower teams, it can't get the job done alone. And for sets like TG+RD, you only use one coverage, requiring even more support for the mere benefit of breaking clefable.
People seem to overhype its ability to crush balance and stall like its nothing but its simply not true in practice.

as far as 2) goes, the most immediate power manaphy has is a modest scald from 100 base special attack. To give you some perspective, it's actually weaker than uninvested rotom-w hydro. Holy fuck that's some pathetic power before a boost. When you talk about wallbreakers like kyu-b, mega gardevoir, mega garchomp, char-y, mega heracross, etc, you get them a free switch-in and then you can nuke something with your coverage and you really don't give a fuck what your opponent has, something is usually dying if its offense. (ofc, char-y needs lati gone, that's a notable exception). But manaphy? You actually need a free turn to pose any threat in the first place, and as i stated before, even then, you're not gauranteed to clean up a slower team.
your (usually uninvested) 100/100/100 bulk that's also insanely overhyped is pretty much shredded after one attempt of setting up against offense, and that's GIVEN a free switch-in too. And obviously you have no way of boosting speed so offense easily revenges you after maybe sacking a mon at most.
These are the drawbacks of having no immediate power. Just clicking a move the moment you get in for free and watching something take atleast over 60% is a joy and advantage that mana users will never really feel. Hit-and-run wallbreakers are honestly the most efficient, and mana is a wallbreaker that cannot do that because its bulk will be wasted every time it tries to have offensive presence.

comparison

yeah you all know i'm a fanboy at this point but if we compare manaphy to my ideal wallbreaker, mega chomp, there are several differences you can see. Mega chomp has loads of power off the bat, but manaphy is outpowered by rotom-w before it can set up. Mega chomp has enough bulk to tank even 4x effective moves from offensive mons and kill them back immediately, but manaphy needs a turn to have any power. Mega chomp is completely independent and after an SD there's actually nothing that can stop it, but manaphy is reliant on partners to take out specific and common defensive mons for it to succeed even against the playstyle its supposed to be good against.
Mana is being nom'd for S rank and mega chomp sits at B...
sigh

Yeah, in the end mchomp takes a mega slot, and is slower (the difference in speed tier makes practically no difference), but hopefully the greater point is made and nobody replies criticizing the example itself..

Basically, mana is still too slow and doesn't have any power to be a threat to offense, and needs partners to take out common mons for it to succeed. It may have versatile options like wacan, sitrus, or salac, but it isn't enough to make up for its fundamental flaws.

mzor for S

I rly like how this thing checks a bunch of shit and has offensive presence and acts as a wincon at the same time and all, but you have to realize that its coverage actually consists of knock/bullet/u-turn/superpower. This may sound contradicting from my manaphy argument where i said having multiple options is bad, but there's a difference because no matter what mana does there is a counter: our lord empoleon. Anyways, speaking of checks and counters, mzor has WAAY too many.
I mean any fire type, some waters, quag, counter skarm, and even some electrics, like megaman and zapdos, can all pretty much hard check scizor. Yes, they're not switching into a +2 superpower, i know, but the point is that the sheer number of mega scizor's checks makes it difficult to sweep with. Yeah its defensive utility is nice and all but its really not breaking a good defensive team or even balance team, which are teeming with rotom-w, bulky chomp, bulky talon, bulky nape (seeing more usage thanks to weavile now), and more. As i said earlier, an S rank mon will ideally be able to crush several types of playstyles, and I don't see mzor doing that.

basically, mzor has too many checks to be S rank, and it can't get past them without repeated opportunities to weaken them. It's just really not sweeping unless its extremely late game.

Mgross for A+

This thing has lots of checks too, but I think that mgross has such powerful coverage that nothing can really be safe vs it in the end, bar gourgeist-super and skarm. Between hp fire, hammer arm, earthquake, gknot, ice punch, and thunderpunch, all of which are good options, nothing but the aforementioned two check it for sure. It even has cool utility moves like pursuit, agility, bullet punch, power-up-punch+substitute to help out the team itself or completely change the objective of mmeta itself.

Now ofc, my comparison so far seems a bit like manaphy: lots of coverage but regardless has a counter or two. Well, the difference between them is the fucking insane stats that mgross has. Its defensive typing lets it check every single fairy in the game, as well as dragons, venu, and more. Its 110 base speed puts it above a majority of offensive mons, so, like an S rank mon should, it is crushing both offense and stall.

People may want to think that the rise of bulky chomp hurts megagross, but honestly, i think it helps. People like to slap that on a team and just call it a day thinking "yup i got mega gross covered." Of course, ice punch mega gross is obviously breaking it cleanly, and while it may be losing half its health in the process, it's opening up the opposing team to other physical attackers, which can tip the game in your favor.

basically, it has the speed, power, versatility, and bulk to be scary to any team, and the popularity of bad checks lets it provide sweeping opportunities to other members of the team. Should stay in S.

Charx for S

I think that this monster should really go up there.
I initially was thinking that the popularity of its checks, such as ttar, hippo, slowbro, and lando-t, really lowers it performance in practice, but after testing out SD char-x i really can't say that anymore:
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 387-456 (98.2 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 367-433 (87.3 - 103%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (and nobody runs max/max defensive hippo)
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 336-396 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 387-456 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

We all know that dragon dance mops up offensive teams like its nobody's business, but SD can absolutely steamroll through its checks, and entire fat teams too. It has amazing initial power, an unboosted adamant flare blitz is stronger than +2 jolly chomp dclaw. Imo it fits all of my criteria to be S rank.

 

[SketchUp]

alright ill take that part out now, and my only point on that is you cannot put manaphy on the same level as mons like mega alt mega gross clef and even zard x(imo) because manaphy does not destroy all styles of play which is what IMO is what a s rank mon should be in this current metagame, oras is tough there's alot of broken mons out there rn and manaphy would be s rank in any other situation rn but its just not the time...


Also to the guy that said clefable can't sweep ho, do you play mons?

I made the comparison from Landorus and Manaphy to show that a pokemon deserves to be S, even if it fails to destroy all styles. AoA Landorus was S rank and it doesn't destroy offense, it's just a big threat like other big wallbreakers like Kyurem-B are too. Metagross also won't break stall as easily when considering common stall pokemon like Skarmory, Alomomola and Mega Scizor are pretty common on stall. Neither is Clefable destroying HO (yes I play mons) because there are like 10 revengekillers in Metagross, Gengar, Excadrill, Bisharp, Zard Y, Victini and Jirachi to name a few. I am not saying Metagross isn't a big threat to stall and Clefable isn't a big threat to HO (because they are!) but Manaphy is also a threat to HO because it is hard to OHKO and Scald always burns.

 

[pika pal]

As far as Manaphy's match up with offense when evaluating it going to S Rank, I think this is being looked at wrong.

Manaphy isn't going to be MVP vs offense (but that bulk and occasional Scald burns means he can contribute), but consider the role compression: Manaphy on a team is enough to break Balance/Stall almost single handedly.

This means that I can essentially just use Manaphy as my dedicated Wall/Stallbreaker, throw in rudimentary support most teams consider anyway (i.e. Hazard control or Volt turn), and focus my team on the offense match-up, because Manaphy alone gives me a huge advantage against anything defensively oriented.

I say Manaphy could be S-Rank under the old definition
S Rank isReserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

Manaphy plays the role of defensive breaker so well that he can almost carry a team's match up against 2 playstyles by himself without being deadweight against others (Crawdaunt, for example, can smash Stall, but he contributes little against priority ridden offensive teams). One non-Mega teamslot is a low risk/cost for exerting a high reward of near auto-beating stall teams. He exerts an amount of pressure on defensive teams that rivals offensive multi-mon cores.

When considering mons that define the metagame, I'd say Manaphy falls under that category. A defensive team without some semblance of preparation for Manaphy can be 6-0'd by the thing. Manaphy is probably the pinnacle of wallbreakers in OU right now (in terms of the main role of breaking defensive teams), and pretty much defines the biggest concern defensive teams have to account for in teambuilding.

Manaphy could go S-Rank.

 

[teamsnickers]

I made the comparison from Landorus and Manaphy to show that a pokemon deserves to be S, even if it fails to destroy all styles. AoA Landorus was S rank and it doesn't destroy offense, it's just a big threat like other big wallbreakers like Kyurem-B are too. Metagross also won't break stall as easily when considering common stall pokemon like Skarmory, Alomomola and Mega Scizor are pretty common on stall. Neither is Clefable destroying HO (yes I play mons) because there are like 10 revengekillers in Metagross, Gengar, Excadrill, Bisharp, Zard Y, Victini and Jirachi to name a few. I am not saying Metagross isn't a big threat to stall and Clefable isn't a big threat to HO (because they are!) but Manaphy is also a threat to HO because it is hard to OHKO and Scald always burns.

Read SRN's post he explains it perfectly... manaphy is just to slow to be s rank... manaphy is a great wallbreaker but thats about it, the other s rank mons can do many more things well and hit all types of teams, manaphy is really not a threat to ho

 

[PK Bash]

Something I'd like to ascertain is just how much of an influence Manaphy is on Stall to the point where it's so uncommon. Because if it's the single main pokemon keeping Stall at bay like it does, you can't argue that it's not meta-defining because it's keeping Stall more or less out of the picture. If it's really that dominant over a whole playstyle to the point where you rarely see it then it should probably be S, and based on this alone I personally can't see how you could argue otherwise. However, you've also got to consider other influences on Stall. There's a lot in A+ (and below) that also happily craps on Stall and the real question, as I see it, is just how much of a role each of these mon play in invalidating Stall. If Manaphy is obviously better than all of them by a stretch and is the thing invalidating Stall, then it should be S. If when put into perspective it's not that much better than some of the others, or if the other mon are also really significant, it's Stall matchup alone is not enough for S.

I know Manaphy's being debated for other reasons as well as beating Stall as well as it does, but for me this is an interesting point to think about since I think it could potentially make Manaphy's position at S single-handedly. But it's just my opinion on things and it doesn't mean much really, different people will have different opinions on this.
Carry on, I guess.