Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[Shrug]

So you're saying if you don't prepare for something then you will get dumped on by it? Alright. I'm sure that Vullaby and Stunky are literally the only two Pokemon in the game that can deal with Abra.

He isn't saying "you will be run through by Abra if you don't pack either of those two mons". The pro-Abra test people agree Abra is not "broken" where broken means too powerful or uncounterable for the metagame. What TCR means by Vullaby and Stunky being the only things that prepare teams is those two mons are the only ones you can have on your team and know for sure you wont have to deal with Abra's shit. That shit is the 50/50 switchin games where the nonabra user is at an inherent disadvantage, etc. I and others covered all that in earlier posts.

What I don't get is why you're only talking about Abra's strengths. Why don't you focus on the fact that it brings absolutely NOTHING to your team in terms of defensive coverage? That playing around the enemy to keep your Sash intact has an opportunity cost? Or keeping a 1 HP Abra alive also has similar costs?

The way i see it, the opportunity cost for using Abra should, without sashguard, be very close to the cost of other fast frail special sweepers - your gastlys et al. (im aware gastly gets in more easily because it has immunities, just go with the hypothetical) have a certain cost, and it should be similar for another >17 Speed mon w/ high SpA and good coverage. When you choose to pick a mon like that, you understand it is not designed to take many hits - neither Abra nor Gastly provide a huge bump to defensive synergy. However, unlike its peers, Abra provides the benefit of guaranteeing at least 1 hit if you need it, something no other mon like it can promise. Therefore, it has: (opportunity cost (fast special sweeper) - reduction for guaranteed hit), coming with a cost far below mons similar to it. It seems you imply keeping the sash is in and of itself an added cost, which it is not - you dont NEED to keep it intact, you can still play abra proactively. However, you can counter with the argument that the sash greatly aids in the causing 50/50 prediction bullshit that we deem unhealthy, and you would be right. However, you were criticizing the mon itself and not the sashguard chicanery that is so harmful, so my contention holds. I'll similarly state that the (granted) oppertunity cost of NEEDING the sash to force 50/50s is outweighed by the benefit of said sashed 50/50s.

I think to ban Abra is to eliminate a valid playstyle of LC. Abra is a staple of "safe" teams. Using risky Pokemon is unsurprisingly a risk with some payoff value, which "good" players are frequently able to make use of more than non-good players. Abra is at the other end of the spectrum, and as it lacks this risk factor, it can be used more effectively by a larger percentage of the playerbase. My problem is that "riskiness" seems to me to be a characteristic impossible to quantify, and yet the argument seems to be Abra is beyond x point of safeness and therefore needs to be banned. I'd need to see a more effective argument on how we quantiy "safeness" and why that's actually a bad thing

We agree Abra lacks the risk factor for its user. It is a very safe mon, both in its own usage (you always get 1 hit and nearly always get 2) and its role on a team (is a supersafe winstop in case a user is set up and swept on). However, I feel like its safeness is dissimilar to that of other mons, and i will explain why. First, I will try (this is impossible) to define safeness in a pokemon-specific context. "Safe" are things that change little in how they are used in a variety of battle conditions: team matchup, battle flow, necessary decisions made etc. Team matchup meaning safe mons will put in a relatively consistent (of course there's some variance) amount of work vs. most playstyles, battle flow meaning safe mons will be able to do their thing most of the time regardless of how the battle is progressing, and necessary decisions meaning things the user herself needs to decide: prediction, double switches, etc. I'm unsure if the dichotomy is perfect, but i feel comfortable in defining "risky" as essentially the opposite: things that change in usage (in battle) a lot based on matchup, flow, choices. With these rough definitions hewn, I feel ok in saying safe things, therefore, have little effect on the variance of the other team's mons - if a mon does the same thing every time (this is safe) the other mons will only be as variant in effectiveness as they were previously, whether risky or safe. If a mon is risky, the way the other team must deal with it is more variant - you dont know exactly how to defend against it based on the other user's choices and interpretation of matchup / flow. This supports your argument that good players use risky mons more effectively (didnt you have a thread on this right before i started lc?) as they are better at recognizing battle conditions and making predicts. I contend Abra subverts the natural balance between safety and risk. As stated previous, Abra acts very similarly in nearly every battle it exists in. However, they way the opponent deals with abra is inherently risky. One fighting Abra needs to predict its moves to get things in to bring it to a Sash. This depends entirely on team matchup (what you have to outspeed and counter vs. what moves abra is packing) battle flow (what you have left when abra comes in) and decisions (in this case, predictions, which might be closer to coin flips). So it is a safe mon which drastically increases the variance of the team it is fighting. This is what is more than anything unhealthy to the meta. Risky mons do this sometimes, but that is their nature; if played against right they do not (hence risky). Abra is almost assured to do this, greatly increasing the luck needed by the opponent in the game most battles without ever afflicting the user with the capricious whims of risk.

I might be wrong, prolly am some places im sure, so point it out if you see it. srry for tl;dr - ing a bit, hope that works

 

[boo836]

All Sash Abra does is keep them from setting up their win condition. Offensively AND defensively speaking, it offers little else.When using it, not only do you almost always require to be down a mon, but also be forced to basically sac another mon. In other competitive games, that's usually called a minus, as in terms of advantages, you're behind (very much so in Pokemon). You're 4 mons to your opponent's 5. While that doesn't mean Abra is bad, it's not by any means a get out of jail free card.

There's no reason to ban Sashbra because it isn't a force that upends the game, as you make it sound to be. If anything, I'd say it's a mon that's among least deserving of a ban. It's a one use emergency button that only prevents you from being swept once, but forces you to use it in a losing situation, and diesn't get you out pf it. I'd go do far as to say that an Abra suspect is even dumber than BP.

 

[Brosb4Ho-ohs]

All Sash Abra does is keep them from setting up their win condition. Offensively AND defensively speaking, it offers little else.When using it, not only do you almost always require to be down a mon, but also be forced to basically sac another mon. In other competitive games, that's usually called a minus, as in terms of advantages, you're behind (very much so in Pokemon). You're 4 mons to your opponent's 5. While that doesn't mean Abra is bad, it's not by any means a get out of jail free card.

There's no reason to ban Sashbra because it isn't a force that upends the game, as you make it sound to be. If anything, I'd say it's a mon that's among least deserving of a ban. It's a one use emergency button that only prevents you from being swept once, but forces you to use it in a losing situation, and diesn't get you out pf it. I'd go do far as to say that an Abra suspect is even dumber than BP.

Yeah this is really true. The thing that even keeps sashbra suspect talk less ban is that you need a free switch or a predict. The latter usually from losing a mon, and the next not even that rewarding since abra can't beat subs or sashes. it seems most teams who even use sashbra are hyper offense; a mon that can stop the win condition and keep the pressure. they value him alot since they dont have to waste 2 slots on a defensive core.

 

[boo836]

That's because Sashbra's really most useful on HO. I've never found any other style where it fits. Balance always wants another Mon in that sloyslot. BO loses its point. HO is really one of the only styles that appreciates an insurance policy like Abra lol

 

[Celestavian]

How is Abra a bad choice for balance? Glue mons are perfect for balance teams because your defensive core is always going to have some holes in it since your team isn't entirely based on defense, so as long as those holes aren't for SS Dwebble or Shellder, then Abra can handle almost anything else. Having a safety net like Abra lets me be more bold with switches and means that I don't have to panic every time my opponent's win condition comes in. Bulky offense isn't even that hindered by Abra either, since the Speed it provides makes up for its lack of bulk, though I admit it's not amazing on bulky offense either.

 

[Heysup]

How is Abra a bad choice for balance? Glue mons are perfect for balance teams because your defensive core is always going to have some holes in it since your team isn't entirely based on defense, so as long as those holes aren't for SS Dwebble or Shellder, then Abra can handle almost anything else. Having a safety net like Abra lets me be more bold with switches and means that I don't have to panic every time my opponent's win condition comes in. Bulky offense isn't even that hindered by Abra either, since the Speed it provides makes up for its lack of bulk, though I admit it's not amazing on bulky offense either.

Especially if you have hazards out - SashAbra can take advantage of those better than a lot of other mons getting 2HKOes on like Porygon and Spritzee (maybe depending on spreads I dunno).

 

[Brosb4Ho-ohs]

How is Abra a bad choice for balance? Glue mons are perfect for balance teams because your defensive core is always going to have some holes in it since your team isn't entirely based on defense, so as long as those holes aren't for SS Dwebble or Shellder, then Abra can handle almost anything else. Having a safety net like Abra lets me be more bold with switches and means that I don't have to panic every time my opponent's win condition comes in. Bulky offense isn't even that hindered by Abra either, since the Speed it provides makes up for its lack of bulk, though I admit it's not amazing on bulky offense either.

This is true to some extent both most balanced team use u-turn to maintain momentum and I feel that abra breaks it.

 

[RZL]

I am just going to ask, what are everyone's thoughts on LC Stall at the moment? ORAS has been very kind to stall by giving it Drain Punch, Knock Off Pancham, recovery on Pumpkaboo, and Knock Off on Ferroseed.

I find LC Stall to be fairly effective right now but you have to play very well, and make very few mistakes. I think this is what deters newer users from adopting stall into their playstyle. Is this just me?

I find this to be the most stall-friendly meta since I started LC back in Tangma. I feel as if stall is still viewed in a negative way by many users who are new to the tier. LC is fast-paced, and Knock Off's buff did hurt, but is stall still an effective stratagem in LC? Is there anything necessary to use stall? What has changed since Rowan's post, and the discussion thereafter? Does stall still need a lot of knowledge to effectively use, or have teams like kaleidoscope by GlassGlaceon made things easier? Is Pawniard necessary to punish Defoggers, and beat other stall teams?

 

[tcr]

IRON DEFENSE RIOLU SEMI STALL SOMEONE MAKE IT HAPPEN

 

[Heysup]

I've had some success with semi-stall, however with the prominence of Knock Off it is harder to actually wall Pokemon for very long - especially with so many good hazard setters and spinblockers (including Pawniard for Defog). I will say that pairing burns (like 100% burn rate Flame Body mons) with Volt-Turn and hazards does give defensive oriented teams a great way to chip at the opponent's HP which makes it particularly hard for bulky offense to get any footing even if faster stronger and frailer offense has a shot at breaking this cycle.

 

[tazz]

i'm seeing a lot of less conventional playstyles + mons coming out of tournament play. These mons are not very high on the viability rankings, but manage to do very well in tournament play vs standard tournament teams. What are your top 5 anti meta mons at the moment? these things shift but it will give a lot of users mons to think about. My top 5 are:
Drifloon: Drifloon is really good in this meta as it has a million sets to do just about anything you want it to. Sub unburden berry juice physical is a nightmare for offensive teams to face, while CM sets can terrorize defensively oriented teams.
Diglett: if anything is broken right now, it's this thing. It gives voltturn users something to worry about, is one of the best revenge killers in the meta, and even has sucker punch priority to pick off weakened priority users.
Gothita: this was spammed by many in SPLC, and remains antimeta in my opinion. the ability to pressure fighting types and remove most poison types as well as ferroseed is invaluable to manyte teams
Houndour: Houndour has many fantastic sets, including evio dour, LO dour, and NP dour. all three of these sets put massive pressure on opposing teams, and all boast very few switchins. Evio dour is amazing at handling ponyta and pursuit trapping ghosts including pumpkaboo and psychics. LO dour OHKOs much of the offensive and 2HKOs most of the defensive meta. NP dour can force a switch and become a nightmare for defensive and offensive teams to face.
Corphish: corphish is a fantastic cleaner in this meta as after one SD is OHKOs frailmons such as gastly and abra with aqua jet and clean OHKOs defensive mons with Crabhammer. It additionally can pressure teams throughout the match with crabhammer and spread knock off, as well as being able to run a potent DD set that can severely threaten many teams

what are your thoughts?

 

[RZL]

I will list mine;
Diglett: tazz described my feelings well.

Bunnelby: is insanely good right now, it OHKOes most of the tier, it does not have much versatility, but it has sheer wall breaking potential, and can make Fletchling sweeps fairly easy especially if you have Webs, or something like that. It can also clean weakened team because Choice Band's (my preferred set) Quick Attack deals around the same amount of damage as Fletchling's unboosted Acrobatics.

Stunky: has been doing exceptionally, it traps Abra, Gastly, Gothita, it has Sucker Punch, it has hazard removal, it is fast. Not much more to say, trapping is great right now.

Snivy: Whenever I see Snivy on the opposing team's preview, I cry, and hope I still have Fletchling. It breaks wall phenomenally well, and it can sweep weakened teams with easy. Glare is a nifty utility move. Sub Berry Juice seems to be the popular set, it wall breaks, it can hamper an attacker with Glare, behind a substitute this thing is just way to threatening and usually causes me to fodder something to take it out.

Webs: This is very biased because I like using SW teams but, Surskit can stop boosters with haze, hydro pump still hurts, and webs is still a great playstyle if you play it right. It can use the aforementioned Bunnelby, and many other powerful pokemon to obliterate the opposing team, yet the most viable user of Sticky Webs is sitting at B-. Yes, along with Tentacool, I cannot remember the last time I battled anyone with a Tentacool.

 

[Rowan]

I like offensive vullaby. Brave bird/koff/uturn/roost with max attack makes for a very decent wallbreaker and bulky pivot, whilst still not losing momentum. Most teams are falling kinda weak to it right now.

Obligatory numel mention, in the team I use it in it is more often than not the mvp, it has a really great defensive and offensive typing for the current meta meaning it can switch in with ease and it's hard to switch into itself. It's just a shame it relies on wish passing.

 

[Holiday]

I don't really have a list but Offensive Vullaby is pretty cool right now, Rowan basically beat me to the punch.

Bias aside for my fave mon alive, Tyrunt's been putting in some work as a SR setter that still has some offensive presence. I even experimented with a STABs/SR/DDance set that allows you to get the jump on the three big defogs.

 

[kingmidas]

Cranidos is a mon that hits hard as fuck, amazing coverage, is pretty fast and has ways to get around being below the 17 speeders, scarf which is the easiest to slap on a team to kill shit, RP that murders offense, and sub which reduces prediction needs.

 

[tcr]

RIOLU

this little tyke is one of the coolest mons I've ever used, no matter the myriad of sets I've used. I've used a standard Eviolite set in tandem with Carvanha to help clean and sweep, with Toxic to lure in things like Ponyta and Cottonee. That worked p well and was way cooler than it seems. I've also used a SD LO set that is amazing. Riolu plays different every game with Copycat, is its so good as a glue mon that it can perform a myriad of roles if played correctly. Things like webs get countered by Surskuit (unless you run like, QA Surskit which idek if it gets QA) and other hazard stacking teams do 't appreciate having their own hazards thrown up in their faces. HJK is an awesome cleaning tool with Copycat.

 

[apt-get]

Scraggy is a god right now. DD shed skin can p much sweep teams with a fairy gone.

This might sound hard to do with things like Spritzee, but that's where SD pancham comes in. iron fist drain punch OHKOes any offensive mon at +2 and 2HKOes all walls, while gunk shot deals with fairies. Knock off is here to weaken foongus, kill pump/ghosts, etc. Basically, lure in fight counters with pancham, and sweep with scrags. Pancham can even take a psychic from sash abra and break it

 

[Yagura]

Scraggy is a god right now. DD shed skin can p much sweep teams with a fairy gone.

I can vouch for this, I've been successfully using a team with a Scraggy and Tentacool core that was given to me by absdaddy and I can say that DD Scraggy can be a wonderful late game sweeper if it's given the right support and Knock Off support is also cool to have along with Scraggy so that it secures some OHKOs after it sets up, and just saying Dual Chop is a cool option because it lets it deal with Focus Sash Abra.

 

[Heysup]

Evio Snivy is amazing at countering Drilbur, Webs, and generally spreading paralysis / sweeping late game.

I like offensive vullaby. Brave bird/koff/uturn/roost with max attack makes for a very decent wallbreaker and bulky pivot, whilst still not losing momentum. Most teams are falling kinda weak to it right now.

I usually throw HP Fighting on that over U-turn to make it a great Pawniard lure/counter but if I have Diglett obviously U-turn is better.

Cranidos is a mon that hits hard as fuck, amazing coverage, is pretty fast and has ways to get around being below the 17 speeders, scarf which is the easiest to slap on a team to kill shit, RP that murders offense, and sub which reduces prediction needs.

Honestly my favorite set (which i've been using for a while) is just BJuice to trap Fletchling - which you don't need to worry about Overheat or anything. It also survives a Shadow Ball from LO Gastly and a Psychic from Sash Abra meaning it can Pursuit trap those too if need be. Using it with shit like Scarf Scraggy, Snivy, and Carvahna are obvious choices.

 

[kingmidas]

Honestly my favorite set (which i've been using for a while) is just BJuice to trap Fletchling - which you don't need to worry about Overheat or anything. It also survives a Shadow Ball from LO Gastly and a Psychic from Sash Abra meaning it can Pursuit trap those too if need be. Using it with shit like Scarf Scraggy, Snivy, and Carvahna are obvious choices.

I like the idea of that, since it is not exactly an obvious switch in to these mons means a double to a trapper is unlikely.
Also another underrated mon is larvitar, whose DD + Toxic Orb guts set is one of the few sweepers who can't be revenged killed by fletchling until really low.

 

[Celestavian]

I like Scarf Download Porygon. Now that it can have Download with Tri Attack, this thing gets to come in at +1/+1 vs. a large portion of the metagame and smash face while still being decently tanky.

 

[Rowan]

Another mon I love using is Aipom actually, not even biased. It's such a good wallbreaker, Fury Swipes is really really strong, and aipom just works wonders vs. balance teams breaking down the defensive core and cleaning late game itself. Fake Out also makes it a decent last minute check to a lot of stuff, particularly zigzagoon. Also fantastic at pressuring webs teams early on, since Fury Swipes can OHKO Surksit and then it can use its high speed to mess with the team early game. I prefer Aipom to Bunnelby because it can be fast without scarf, and knock off means it can wallbreak a bit easier

I agree with Heysup, eviolite Snivy>BJ Snivy is great atm, I stole his team and it makes for a much more reliable pivot than the BJ set.

Finally, Cottonee is getting good again since everyone stopped preparing for it as much, all the random PJabs are disappearing. Fantastic 'blanket check' mon, and really frustrates the opposing team till it eventually gets worn down.

 

[boo836]

This might sound peculiar, but I've been having some fun with LO Cottonee. It's a hilarious Pokemon that operates like Whimsi without U-Turn, smashing switchins like Pawn with a harder hitting DGleam. It's also got priority Tri Attack, which doesn't sound like much but does great chip damage.

Since none of you post here (and that dumb double posting rule is in place), I'm just going to point out that Scarf Vullaby in particular is really, really good. it's a spectacular revenge killer that hits somewhat hard. If anyone's seen my most recent team, it has that max atk Vullaby that Rowan's talking about. tbh it's a pretty decent glue for offensive teams, and I suggest at the very least trying Rowan's set out.

 

[Cheryl.]

I love using this core. It's Shell Smash Omanyte, HP Fire Gothita, and SR Pawniard. Shell Smash Omanyte is an amazing sweeper that sets up on stuff like Fletchling. However, it struggles to get through some tgings, most notably Ferroseed, who can KO it with Bullet Seed. Here comes Gothita, who can trap Ferroseed and kill it with HP Fire. Gothita also traps Fighting types like Timburr, who can threaten Omanyte's sweep. Now, sometimes Omanyte and Gothita need a bit of chip damage to kill stuff. Now comes Pawniard, who Knocks off Eviolites, sets up Stealth Rock, and can take down Cottonnee. It also takes down Psychic types like Abra, who would otherwise threaten the core. And that's the core! What do u guys think? Any suggestions?

 

[Berks]

I love using this core. It's Shell Smash Omanyte, HP Fire Gothita, and SR Pawniard. Shell Smash Omanyte is an amazing sweeper that sets up on stuff like Fletchling. However, it struggles to get through some tgings, most notably Ferroseed, who can KO it with Bullet Seed. Here comes Gothita, who can trap Ferroseed and kill it with HP Fire. Gothita also traps Fighting types like Timburr, who can threaten Omanyte's sweep. Now, sometimes Omanyte and Gothita need a bit of chip damage to kill stuff. Now comes Pawniard, who Knocks off Eviolites, sets up Stealth Rock, and can take down Cottonnee. It also takes down Psychic types like Abra, who would otherwise threaten the core. And that's the core! What do u guys think? Any suggestions?

That's a solid core to post here, in the Good Cores thread! Well thought out, very great, but this core certainly struggles with switching in on Fighting-types... Maybe add a Snubbull!