Why restrict a mega stone? It's not broken, it has counters. It's just centralising, and not pleasant to face. Why not just ban -ate + priority? You solve all the problems
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Old_Gregg there are many other things that can use -atespeed besides togekiss.
-Atespeed is not broken. More specifically -ate Dragonite is not broken. I've both never had a problem with beating it, or finding checks to it. One of the big weaknesses it has is the fact that it will almost always be weak to Fridge and pixi users(if dnite uses pinsirite, fridge weavile OHKOs with fake out) if not running aggronite or something. That, and it HAS to run Superpower to get around Latiasite Heatran, who is both common and easy to fit on teams, or it gets walled hard by it, and eats a flash cannon or burn. Being forced to run superpower over earthquake leaves it walled by pretty much any steel type with a superpower neutrality/immunity(flying/steels,fairy/steels,ghost steels ect).Heck one of my favorite e-speeders, entei beats it HARD with alterianite, due to both resisting espeed, and having pixilate return/espeed of its own. Altarianite landorus is also a fine check to it, eating it alive with pixilate return, but that's beside the point. Things that have large amounts of bulk can also check it pretty decently, like sabenite users, or stuff that has access to status moves like t-wave or will-o-wisp. Not to mention that without EQ, a top threat in the meta-Victini- can check i very nicely.
-Atespeed is not broken. More specifically -ate Dragonite is not broken. I've both never had a problem with beating it, or finding checks to it. One of the big weaknesses it has is the fact that it will almost always be weak to Fridge and pixi users(if dnite uses pinsirite, fridge weavile OHKOs with fake out) if not running aggronite or something. That, and it HAS to run Superpower to get around Latiasite Heatran, who is both common and easy to fit on teams, or it gets walled hard by it, and eats a flash cannon or burn. Being forced to run superpower over earthquake leaves it walled by pretty much any steel type with a superpower neutrality/immunity(flying/steels,fairy/steels,ghost steels ect).Heck one of my favorite e-speeders, entei beats it HARD with alterianite, due to both resisting espeed, and having pixilate return/espeed of its own. Altarianite landorus is also a fine check to it, eating it alive with pixilate return, but that's beside the point. Things that have large amounts of bulk can also check it pretty decently, like sabenite users, or stuff that has access to status moves like t-wave or will-o-wisp. Not to mention that without EQ, a top threat in the meta-Victini- can check i very nicely.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
If you'll notice, I said stab ate speed. Stab makes a huge difference. This seems like the best option as people will just continue to complain about getting destroyed by Dnite after it comfortably sets up on whatever thanks to Multiscale. DD, Espeed, EQ/Fire blast, superpower is pretty damned good coverage.
-Ate checking -Ate is not an argument for not banning -Ate, its actually an argument for banning -Ate. It's similar to Fakespeed in AAA as in it restricts multiple pokemon from functioning properly, which is why priority is a double-edged sword between checking and centralising.
Conkeldurr @ Aggronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
This set gives very bulky defense. While it may lack assault vest, Conkeldurr gains bigger attack, making it have 170 attack.
EDIT:
Flygon @ Altarianite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain
- Roost
Pixilate STAB Boomburst is a great move to get Flygon on an advantage. Combined with the added 120 Special Attack it gets, Flygon might be a threat. It might be a slighty better Mega Altaria in terms of stats.
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
This set gives very bulky defense. While it may lack assault vest, Conkeldurr gains bigger attack, making it have 170 attack.
EDIT:
Flygon @ Altarianite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain
- Roost
Pixilate STAB Boomburst is a great move to get Flygon on an advantage. Combined with the added 120 Special Attack it gets, Flygon might be a threat. It might be a slighty better Mega Altaria in terms of stats.
Last edited:
How about banning Extremespeed then? That seems to be the biggest problem and it'll take care of all the big abusers of priority -ate and not be a complex ban.
I strongly disagree of banning any moves outside of uncompetitive ones like Chatter. I said this because we have never banned Extremespeed or Boomburst in other metas, especially BH, Stabmons and Inheritance. The move is perfectly fine. It's the abuser that makes it a problem (though I still disagree of -atespeed ban because it's checkable). Shadow Tag ability is uncompetitive, yes. Chatter is uncompetitive. But Extremespeed is perfectly competitive, there is no reason to ban it.
If we're gonna discuss banning things, discuss the abuser, not the move (unless it's as uncompetitive as Chatter).
If we're gonna discuss banning things, discuss the abuser, not the move (unless it's as uncompetitive as Chatter).
Small question, today I viewed Mewtwonite Y and I remembered the question what Alakazite could do. Well to me Mewtwonite Y seems even worse for non-mixed attackers (which aren't that common). Alakazite gives +0/+0/+40/+20/+30, while Mewtwonite Y gives +40/-20/+40/+30/+10. Additionally I'd argue that Trace is usually better than Insomnia, though both can be somewhat useful, but situational. Now my question is, why is Mewtwonite Y higher in the viability rankings and what can use it viably without being outclassed?
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I've actually seen Alakazite used effectively on the ladder, have yet to see MMY used at all. The -20 defense is a very real drawback when considering mega stones.
Concerning ate speed, Dnite is the best user hands down. If it wasn't for Multiscale, I don't think it would be such a huge issue. Multiscale can guarantee a safe DDmost all of the time. At +1 Dnite is super hard to revenge because not only do you have to try to faint it, but you also have to be able to tank a boosted stab+ate Espeed. This really restricts team building guys.
Concerning ate speed, Dnite is the best user hands down. If it wasn't for Multiscale, I don't think it would be such a huge issue. Multiscale can guarantee a safe DD
I just found the number one biggest bug in the code I've seen or even heard of. Baton pass treats mega evolution as a volatile status condition or whatever, and therefor PASSES IT. Something is very wrong here! Someone just passed sablenite from togekiss to magnezone- then mega evolved AGAIN w/ alakazite! This is so very wrong and incredibly broken. Pikachuun! HELP!
Not to be a douche, but I'd be more likely to take this seriously if you weren't always calling for a suspect of something, bruh. The ates are not only checkable, but COUNTERABLE, as I explained in a lengthy post a little while back. And not just by ates. Pixinite (by FAR the more popular of dragonites options) is HARD walled by poison types that are immune to ground (I.e., levitating or flying types), and a bunch of different steels can hard wall it depending on wether it chooses to use EQ or super power, on the defensive side, venusaurite skarm (my favorite physical wall/support) walls it like its absolutely nothing, and deals a solid chunk back w/ iron head. Manectite users can knock it back down to square one, then let something else come in to tank the hit or voltturn out or whatever. It's also incredibly prone to status; adamant can't outspeed timid pidgeotite gengar at +1, it's walled fairly hard by Pdon (then lava plume has a great chance to burn it and deals more than you'd expect and precipice blades really hurts it), etc.. It's not unstoppable. I've conceded on every other ban thus far (with some convincing), but this is completely unnecessary.
They're basically the megagross of OU. If you aren't prepared for it, it will straight up sweep your entire team, gg. But any decent player can prepare for it.
ok sorry about that, I forgot. And I didn't mean to complain, it was just a major bug I found, and it really needs to be fixed.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
I meant bug reports in my post, not complaints, so I fixed that to be more accurate
Just a visual glitch. Will fix it -together with some other visual improvements- later.
Avalugg @ Abomasite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Stone Edge
95 HP
117+40 Atk
184+30 Def
44+40 Sp. Atk
46+20 Sp. Def
28-30 Speed
That's right, -2 speed. NOTHING will be outspeeding you and with 157 attack gyro ball hits like a truck full of explosives in an oil field. Giggity.
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Stone Edge
95 HP
117+40 Atk
184+30 Def
44+40 Sp. Atk
46+20 Sp. Def
28-30 Speed
That's right, -2 speed. NOTHING will be outspeeding you and with 157 attack gyro ball hits like a truck full of explosives in an oil field. Giggity.
Laxpras
One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
In my opinion -ate espeed isn't completely broken, but it might be overly dangerous. I don't think an outright ban is necessary for -ate speeders; but as others suggested, the same clause that exists in BH would make sense in Mix and Mega, where you can only have one -ate user. That said, there are counters to it, putting aggronite on almost any pokemon with good bulk essentially shuts it down, and the filter boost is great in other situations as well. So with the presence of aggronite and even something like sablenite, you can get plenty of bulk to deal with them.
As for dragonite, it cannot run lum berry, so a twave or will o wisp can severely hinder it. After paralysis, other Espeeders can deal with it.
As for dragonite, it cannot run lum berry, so a twave or will o wisp can severely hinder it. After paralysis, other Espeeders can deal with it.
Fairly certain you'll get an error if you try going below 0 or above 255.
After playing for a while, some top threats I've seen:
Absolite Manaphy. This thing is ridiculous. If you don't have anything faster/with priority and it manages to set up, you've lost. The only things it doesn't OHKO(Blissey and a couple of other Pokemon) can't really do much back to it. It has good coverage with Scald, Ice Beam and Energy Ball. Plus it doesn't even need to be SE to win.
Anything + Diancite. +60/-40/+60/-40/+60 is ridiculous. I mean you'll have worse defences than a paper towel but the offensive power more than makes up for it. Notable users would be Hydreigon, Haxorus and Chatot.
Regarding Chatot in particular, thoughts on Chatter? It could simply run Protect/Boomburst/Nasty Plot/Chatter and win through hax. It has 151 base speed after mega evolving so other than other Diancite users, few things are going to outspeed it. I've faced it only twice and didn't find it too difficult(One turn confusion FTW!)
Regarding -ate spam, either it's being overhyped or I just didn't face that many teams carrying -ate spam. Most of the times, Dragonite barely gets a chance to set up. Also, pretty much all steel types resist -ate spam. You have so many options, Heatran, Aegislash, Arceus-Steel, Skarmory and pretty much anything with Aggronite.
Some other thoughts: The lack of items is refreshing. I don't have to worry about random scarves, bands, specs, lum berries and sashes. Also, either people don't want to use or they don't know that they can use Ubers. Lum Berry Arceus-Normal is still probably the best Espeeder in the meta.
Some other top threats: Bannetite Smeargle/Mew, Charizardite-X/AErodactylite/MMX/Loppunite Archeops, Scizorite Breloom, Venusaurite Skarmory. And while I'm here, I'd like to nominate Archeops for A+ rank. It's arguably better than Landorus-T and Terrakion. I'd also nominate Skarmory to A rank as it's probably the best physical wall in the tier. It can also run Slowbronite(Though it's not that great for it.), Sablenite(Magic Bounce is cool and the +50 to both defences is nice), Charizardite-Z(Steel/Dragon type).
Yes, I recognise it's counterable, but there's something you're forgetting. In Inheritance Gale wings was completely counterable, viable and good counters. The problem was that none of these counters were viable on offence, even if they were they could rarely handle multiple Gale wings spammers, Salamence, Dragonite and Landorus-Therian in particular. Two days after Inheritance was over Gale wings was banned. It was not because of it being uncounterable, but extremely pressuring towards offence, making offence rather unpleasant where people would just try to win speed ties, leaving the game up to 50/50s a large portion of the time. And lets take a look at the most common Manectite user, because I like to fiddle with that kinda stuff.
252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 162-191 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Raikou fails to OHKO with Hidden power Ice and Dragonite wins (most of the time :p)
252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 169-199 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same deal except Thundurus has a great chance to knock Dragonite out, and this disregarding the fact that there's so many viable -Ate abusers. Hydreigon, Suicune, Lucario, Entei which all are fully capable of beating these counters. If you truly want to abuse -Ate, make a team with enough -Ates to switch into these counters and handle them.
Personally, I'm not running offence in Mix and Mega. But I can see how it would become a problem which is why I supported Gale wings ban in Inheritance, and that's why I suggested we DO NOT BAN -ATE because that would mean we're removing multiple mega stones from play, this is not what you'd want to do. Rather, ban Priority + Ate and before you bring up why we should be more conferrable discussion complex bans in Mix and mega, that is because if we ban stones we're not removing Dragonite, we're removing every viable users of said stone, and since we cannot manipulate a mega stone we should be prone to complex ban.
We are now suspecting Dragonite.
Monstrous offense, two different powerful -ate builds that can cut through way too many things, a diverse movepool, powerful setup, Altarianite to patch up its typing, Multiscale to setup in the first place... Dragonite is pretty nuts, and I'm unconvinced that it's helping to "stabilize the meta" by being centralizing.
I was originally unconvinced of its problem-ness, but having spent some time on the ladder, yeah, I'm getting concerned.
Further discussion go!
Also thanks Tyrell D. Barnes. I have linked to your document in the OP. Your help is appreciated!
Monstrous offense, two different powerful -ate builds that can cut through way too many things, a diverse movepool, powerful setup, Altarianite to patch up its typing, Multiscale to setup in the first place... Dragonite is pretty nuts, and I'm unconvinced that it's helping to "stabilize the meta" by being centralizing.
I was originally unconvinced of its problem-ness, but having spent some time on the ladder, yeah, I'm getting concerned.
Further discussion go!
Also thanks Tyrell D. Barnes. I have linked to your document in the OP. Your help is appreciated!
You didn't read the OP.
Excellent that we're seeing progress. Any reason for why we're suspecting Dragonite over the link of Priority + -Ate?
Other than that, why can't we use Preevolutions with mega stones? Doublade :(
Laxpras
One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
What I've found to be even worse than dragonite due to its effectiveness in a horrid playstyle is pideotite mew. With 120 base speed and no guard, this thing can put anything to sleep with hypnosis, or go for zap cannon/dynamic punch confusion para hax, as well as spam focus blast. And with that 160 SpA, a zap cannon/focus blast from mew hurts anything, and zap cannon can render anything essentially useless. Its moveset is simply too large for it to have no guard and 160 SpA.
Because only Dragonite seems broken right now. Priority+ate is a complex ban, that and the meta needs more development before we ban something that only one abuser is broken with. unless I start seeing stupid numbers of sweeps by -ate users-not just dragonite, I don't think it's justified.
And in response to the other thing, because nothing mega evolves that is a prevo.
That's the thing tho, it's really not that hard for offense to beat. I assume you saw the core I've been running a few pages back, I assume; it was full offense, hyperoffense even, but I have no difficulty dealing w/ it. It's not all that bulky, and multiscale, while awesome, can be very difficult to keep intact. It's very easily worn down despite having roost, as roosting means killing momentum. It is also prone to status (even offense will often run a status-inducer as an E-Brake to opposing sweepers), and it's coverage is only meh in this meta, meaning that it actually requires significant support against any decent team of any archetype, as it isn't that hard to wall it w/ at least something. Skarm (despite being a defensive mon) actually works very well on offense to control hazards on the field and help to pivot stuff in, and (especially w/ venusaurite) completely stops it dead in its tracks. Any (well, i suppose technically not all, but basically any good) offensive team will have at least one support/pivot/whatever, and so saying that offense has no checks for it just isn't true.
Tl;dr, you're wrong.
Actually, I feel gengar fulfills this role far better. Despite not having as many status options, it is faster, and it hits way freaking hard. Nothing walls this monster. It's pretty dang frail, but it's destructive none the less.
You say that like it's easy to widdle Dragonite, who sends their dragonite in random to sponge an attack? You wait until you can sweep, set up a dragon dance, mega evolve and then spam Extreme speed. What on offence even stops this monster? There are very few reliable answers to ALL ates. Skarmory doesn't want to take a +2 Close combat, Nor does it like the burns from sacred fire and Thunder punch still hurts. Any offensive team runs atleast on status inducer? Where are you getting that from, offence runs hazard and then it uses momentum to overpower the opponent, it doesn't run toxic/will-o-wisp because that would mean it would be balance. Not offence. If you run your skarmory on offence you lose momentum, losing momentum in offence is terrible.
Don't put TL;DR you're wrong, it's condescending and dissolves the dicsussion.
And Pidgeot Gengar is walled by Sablenite Blissey