this early in the tier we should be atleast somewhat hasty about suspect testing, if this was stabmons then no, you'd take your time before banning. But unless this gets perma ladder we only have one month and shouldn't take days. Definetely not accusing Ghoul, he responded very quickly with a Shadow tag & Dragonite suspect. In the future, I can see three things becoming... Iffy. Mew, Manaphy and Victini. So keep these threats in mind while playing, try to notice how their presence affects teambuilding for you.
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
That's not grasping at straws; you have to figure out your opps moves one way or another, and it's one of the most effective means of doing so. And no, that's not like suggesting to in ban arceus. Just because you can figure out what set arceus is running doesn't mean you can stop it in OU. Ekiller gets stab Espeed off of 120 attack, it's stupid fast, and insanely bulky. Good luck beating it w/ anything bar, like base aggron. Protect scouting lets you throw off their strategy and prepare for whatever's coming and adapt to it. It lets you figure out their coverage moves, and punish them for revealing them. It is a VERY valid and actually good tactic, and sees use all the time. lol "grasping at straws" my butthole, bud. I have given so many examples, you just have chosen to ignore them. And again, I am an offense player, no, I don't use dragonite, and no, it's not an issue. And the checks I use for it are multipurpose utility mons that happen to check Dnite as well. Honestly, Lucario is better job for an Ekiller set, imo. It's faster, is harder to wall, and has swords dance for more power after a single boost than Dnite. Not to mention, the type change from steel->fairy/flying is really good and makes it hard to hit for SE damage. Anyways, I honestly feel a complex ban is he way to go. Basically, this would weaken dragonite by preventing double atespeed cores that would TOTALLY destroy balance especially, but also every other archetype.
No, that's a bad way to look at it. Yeah, we can't waste forever, but what if the meta is super boring because of a hasty ban? Not saying this will do that, I'm just speaking in generalities. The fact that we haven't been too hasty has allowed for the possibility of more complex bans to come out, which sound like the better of our options at present. A complex ban of one Espeed+ate or an Espeed clause in general (I don't real care which) allows for more diversity and still restricts Espeed spam.
Frankly, if dragonite were to get banned at this point, I wouldn't really care. This is just getting stupid and I'm sick of trying to argue my point, especially when what I've said has been taken out of context and answered likewise.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
The definition of overcentralization is when a given mon requires a primary playstyle to dedicate more than one teamslot to checking it, or requires the use of a pool of very few mons, of which none have real use outside of beating the given mon.
Dragonite alone requires offense to dedicate multiple teamslots to checking it, otherwise you lose. It is too easy to set up and has too few reliable counters, as stated in my quote from the council convo. It is so much better than the other -atespeeders in almost every way, and this warrants its brokenness above all the other -atespeeders. And yes, you really are grasping with this post, don't get defensive.
In this last post, you instead made generalities. Not specifics, but generalities. I have yet to see you give me anything that shows me that offense does not need to run 2 different dragonite checks or a select few viable mons, all of which are beaten by the proper coverage move anyways.
It's not like Dragonite can't run almost any offensive stone, so even if you propose 3 -ate counters, lets say skarmor-venusaur, goirgeist-aggron and hippowdown-red orb. Suddenly Dragonite runs Absolite and beats all of them with a magic bounce offence set. Its an increndible diverse mon that can easily beat all of its checks, and I mean easily.
Like I said, I was getting tired of trying to argue it, and so I didn't want to take the time to give specifics, as I already had. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm getting annoyed. It wasn't defensive, it was just unmotivated. His comparison to unbanning arceus was ridiculous, and so I had to explain how it was different. It doesn't require more than one mon to check it, nor is it limited to a pool of very specific, very niche Pokemon. In fact, it is straight up countered by many top threats (again, I'm not going to take the time to list them AGAIN, as I have in earlier posts). If it's existence alone rendered offense unviable, at least w/o it, then I'd agree. However it really doesn't. But if one mon gets banned to appease everyone, then whatever.
And? That's true for basically anything w/ good offensive stats on both sides, and some w/ subpar stats on one side. For exapmple, keldeo could run loppunite effectively for a swords dance set that still retains its cool stabs, gets good priority, and most of all smashes its usual checks. Therefore, it must be broken! Let's ban keldeo! Yeah, your argument is basically completely invalid. There's basically no such thing as a true counter in this meta, as keldeo demonstrates.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
lati@s, venusaur, and amoongus(probably the least viabile in this meta but still a check) don't really care about a physical keldeo, js, so i don't really see your point. if you are going to say "your argument is completely invalid" don't use a argument that falls flat on its face the second you look at it. i cant think of a check that fears SD more then plain CM keldeo with secret sword barring something like jellicent. also even pokemon weak to its priority wont care much, since its no longer STAB(keld becomes pure fighting:+2 252 Atk Keldeo Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). also lets not forget keldeo has been banned in almost every om due to the stuff it can do, and even OU had it on the suspect pedestal. not saying you don't have a point, i'm just saying your example shows the contrary.
It's not invalid as Dragonite has zero counters, few checks, increndible stats and ability while it also destroys all playstyles. Keldeo does not
Btw, after rocks, that is a slim chance to ohko against aero, just sayin. Anyways, you forget that it has X-Scissor, so... The Latis die, and it gets aerial ace for Venu (also bounce, but..). And actually, it does retain its stab, since water is its primary type... I think. That parts always kinda confused me. If it doesn't, then Venu can't hit it for that much damage anyways.
Oh and also, with an adamant nature, which it would actually probably prefer since it would be using its prio a lot, that calc against aero is more in its favor, especially if it does retain its stab. So, irrelevant? No, not really. It was a super dramatic example meant to illustrate a point.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
i forgot loppunite raises speed lmao sorry. and are you fucking kidding me? did smogon seriously lie to me again about kelds typing it said water was secondary... ugh sorry, then yeah, my bad your point stands.
Yeah, it is, however, I think you may have actually been right about losing water typing anyways. Though I definitely think it shouldn't, but whatever. Ghoul King, I know it's a little late, but could we possibly readdress this? No mega evolution changes primary type, therefore neither should this. Primary type actually, as far as I know, is pretty much consistent in every evolutionary line even. It's not even just mega evolution, for the record, so, I feel like we can't say, "well, just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they won't," after 6 generations.
... I feel guilty for getting the head honchos involved with this whole... debate that pretty much centralizes on the use of -atespeed and Dragonite. I was having a conversation with one of my buddies earlier, and I mentioned to him that "it really doesn't matter what you think when it comes to how a system is run unless the person/people running that system is open to change." With that said, it's comparitively better to adapt to how the meta is run and either beat them or join them. I may speak ignorantly on this, but if we do have a council for this meta (which I kinda doubt), then if anything, they most likely will have taken notice of these threats by now. All we can do at this point is, like I said, adapt until things are changed, if change does come.
No need to get salty over your favorite team getting knocked out because of one or multiple prominent threats. That's what competition is all about. Who has the best offense, and who has the best defense available when your offense isn't enough to withstand the onslaughts of your opponent? Since I've seen mostly -atespeed users in general, that's why I mold my teams to be able to check them, and then some. It's better to try to fix the problem if you can rather than sitting there and saying "That person used a cheap tactic!" or "That person keeps spamming!" and so on. I don't intend to offend anyone by exclaiming this, and if I did, I apologize.
No need to get salty over your favorite team getting knocked out because of one or multiple prominent threats. That's what competition is all about. Who has the best offense, and who has the best defense available when your offense isn't enough to withstand the onslaughts of your opponent? Since I've seen mostly -atespeed users in general, that's why I mold my teams to be able to check them, and then some. It's better to try to fix the problem if you can rather than sitting there and saying "That person used a cheap tactic!" or "That person keeps spamming!" and so on. I don't intend to offend anyone by exclaiming this, and if I did, I apologize.
im far too lazy to read the last few pages but i'd like to propose to the council that they consider banning extremespeed. my buddies and i have been playing this tier a bunch but a few games in we realized extremespeed is broken as sin with altaria/pinsirite so we decided to play without it and the games are so much better.
i mean i don't actually care that much since chances are i wont actually ladder but rather just continue to play with them, but i figured i'd give the suggestion being a former official tier leader and all.
:]
i mean i don't actually care that much since chances are i wont actually ladder but rather just continue to play with them, but i figured i'd give the suggestion being a former official tier leader and all.
:]
There is a council; it is comprised of myself, Ghoul King, xJownage, Ransei, and thdhted. And it's all good- I'm not even sort of offended, at least. You have a good point, and I appreciate you stating it.
At the moment, we are looking at it, however, most feel it's dragonite that's really the problem. Due to its immense bulk and power and great typing w/ altarianite, it has the potential to easily sweep entire teams.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Just ban atespeed. No need to ban dnite then. Linked added choiced clause instead of banning all scarf users, this would be smart too tbh.
(I actually think ate blanket ban is better, glalite weavile is insane, dnite can run return etc)
(I actually think ate blanket ban is better, glalite weavile is insane, dnite can run return etc)
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
As I stated a day or two ago, Dnite is the best user of Pinsirite/Altarianite. However Dnite is not the only mon to gain immensely from running either of these stones. Arcanine, Entei, Zygarde, and especially Luc all become monsters with either of these stones. With Dnite gone the other four I mentioned will fill the gap and continue to sweep with Stab+Ate boosted Espeed. Personally I feel like an ate ability on top of a type change providing Stab gives these mons zero opportunity cost and too much power. On top of that Entei, Arcanine, Zygarde, and Luc all have coverage that hits steel super effectively. Levitran can only fill one spot per team, Lando can only fill one stop per team. With checks/counters removed these guys tear teams apart and what's worse is these guys can effectively pick off their checks and counters with just a smidgen of prior damage. You can ignore my points now and blame it on the dragon, but in its absence Espeed will still reign supreme with Ate boosted Stab +2 priority.
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Old_Gregg brings up a valid point in saying that it isn't just Dragonite that causes this problem, but a slew of Extreme Speed users including the three amigos I mentioned aswell as Coil Zygarde, amongst others. It'd be best to input a clause that disallows the combination of Extreme Speed and -ate Stones. This way, they're still able to run the stones; they just aren't able to abuse the priority as much.
Now, obviously, Glalitite Weavile has its perks in running the double-priority in +2 priority in Fake Out and Quick Attack, and can function as a hit-and-run type, which extends this past Extreme Speed and into the general +2 priority moves, as even Kangaskhan with her bulk can abuse. If anything, it would most likely extend into other Fake Out users and form into a sort of universal hit-and-run amongst high-speed users, creating a pseudo FakeTurn tactic that was implemented in the Linked OM.
Just something to throw out there. Maybe it's +2 priority, but Dragonite alone is most certainly not the case here.
Now, obviously, Glalitite Weavile has its perks in running the double-priority in +2 priority in Fake Out and Quick Attack, and can function as a hit-and-run type, which extends this past Extreme Speed and into the general +2 priority moves, as even Kangaskhan with her bulk can abuse. If anything, it would most likely extend into other Fake Out users and form into a sort of universal hit-and-run amongst high-speed users, creating a pseudo FakeTurn tactic that was implemented in the Linked OM.
Just something to throw out there. Maybe it's +2 priority, but Dragonite alone is most certainly not the case here.
While I seem to be part of a tiny minority that disagrees, I seriously don't think Espeed in itself is broken. While I could potentially see why people think Dnite is, I don't see how the others are even remotely, especially any that can't boost their attack efficiently, namely arcanine and entei. Even in AAA the ates aren't banned, except aerilate, and there are far less stops to it there than there are here. Lucario can run LO pixilate or refrigerate Espeed for both coverage and very good priority. For the record, their are other, more creative ways of dealing w/ the ates, like ghosts w/ skill swap (I know, that seems super gimmicky, but it's just an idea), and it would work so long as you can take a single Espeed and are able to outspeed the opponent, so you only need 115 speed (after mega evolving). chandelure could do this effectively, at least for altarianite. I'm not saying this is how you have to deal w/ it, but this is mix and mega; you can build a mon to do some weird, effective thing that your team needs- be creative! Their are so many possibilities, checking something like atespeed shouldn't be hard.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Arcanine and Entei can both boost attack via Howl. It might not get them +2 attack or +1 attack/+1 speed, but they can boost. Don't get me wrong. I think mix and mega is very fun and you can be very versatile with the sets you create, I just feel like getting beat by a +2 stab priority move before my mon even has a chance to do anything really cheapens the experience. I guess I could just run six levitrans, right...
Oh wait...
I agree. I personally don't think they're seriously broken. As far as creativity goes with countering them I decided to try this out:
Latias @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter
Base Stats: 80 / 110 / 140 / 110 / 150 / 110
~ Defog
~Roost / Wish / Healing Wish
~ Reflect Type / Draco Meteor
~ Ice Beam / Earthquake
If Ice Beam is being used, use a Bold nature. Otherwise, use an Impish nature. However, if you're running both Draco Meteor and Earthquake use a Relaxed Nature. Same with Ice Beam and Earthquake. (Credit to Tyrell D. Barnes for helping me with this) Currently, I've been going with a Physically Defensive set but you can mold it to your own needs. Specially Defensive or even a Mixed Tank. Note that after the Mega Evolution she becomes a Dragon-Steel type.
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Because of the ability to boost their attack, speed and defences and give them a better typing
Primal Groudon: A- Rank to A Rank
Primal Groudon should move up thanks to its incredible typing and bulk. While it may limit the use of Red Orb on your team, it provides a ton of utility in the form of a Pixilate stop, general physical wall, Thunder Wave / Phazing support, and Stealth Rock. It's powerful as well, so nothing really enjoys switching into it. It's easy to fit on a team thanks to all of its positive attributes. Should move up for these reasons.
Discussing Espeed bans:
Honestly, -ate isn't that difficult to deal with. But espeed is, and Dragonite is the most popular proponent of it. If you make it a "One mon can have e-speed" or "one man can have -ate" Everyone's going to run dragonite anyway (altarianite probably as well).
Basically, if you're going to decide between an -ate ban and an espeed ban, you should ban espeed because its impact on the meta is much greater than -ate is.
Almost every successful MnM team I have run into carries 2 or more espeed users. Hell, I carry 3 and I'm in the top 5 consistently on the ladder.
If we don't ban this move, everyone is going to build their team to counteract Espeed, and we won't be able to explore the depth of the meta as well. But without espeed, people will still use Altarianite, Pinsirite, Salamencite, and in some rare cases, Glalitite for mons other than Dragonite, Lucario, Entei, Zygarde, and Arcanine.
I really, really appreciate the hyper offensive approach we have to this meta. This is one of the rare metas where you can't 100% check a special attacker like manaphy with sablenite blissey because of tail glow and magic bounce. If you think something's bulky, there's almost always something that can break its bulk, and that's what I love. But Espeed limits teambuilding.
Technically, so does -ate, but limiting -ate to one mon like BH puts all the -ate stones (Salamencite, Gardevoirite, Glalitite, Altarianite, Pinsirite) into one pool and you only get to choose one of the five. That's even more limiting to teambuilding than banning Espeed would. Instead, by banning Espeed, you get a massive redistribution of stones to other, more viable mons like Boomburst noivern, Fake out / Quick attack Weavile (Kyurem not withstanding), Return / Quick attack Archeops, et cetera.
The only problem I see this creating is that it makes prankstermons and/or using banetite much more viable. Then again, this can be easily counteracted by using magic bounce stones like sablenite, absolite, and diancite.
Honestly, -ate isn't that difficult to deal with. But espeed is, and Dragonite is the most popular proponent of it. If you make it a "One mon can have e-speed" or "one man can have -ate" Everyone's going to run dragonite anyway (altarianite probably as well).
Basically, if you're going to decide between an -ate ban and an espeed ban, you should ban espeed because its impact on the meta is much greater than -ate is.
Almost every successful MnM team I have run into carries 2 or more espeed users. Hell, I carry 3 and I'm in the top 5 consistently on the ladder.
If we don't ban this move, everyone is going to build their team to counteract Espeed, and we won't be able to explore the depth of the meta as well. But without espeed, people will still use Altarianite, Pinsirite, Salamencite, and in some rare cases, Glalitite for mons other than Dragonite, Lucario, Entei, Zygarde, and Arcanine.
I really, really appreciate the hyper offensive approach we have to this meta. This is one of the rare metas where you can't 100% check a special attacker like manaphy with sablenite blissey because of tail glow and magic bounce. If you think something's bulky, there's almost always something that can break its bulk, and that's what I love. But Espeed limits teambuilding.
Technically, so does -ate, but limiting -ate to one mon like BH puts all the -ate stones (Salamencite, Gardevoirite, Glalitite, Altarianite, Pinsirite) into one pool and you only get to choose one of the five. That's even more limiting to teambuilding than banning Espeed would. Instead, by banning Espeed, you get a massive redistribution of stones to other, more viable mons like Boomburst noivern, Fake out / Quick attack Weavile (Kyurem not withstanding), Return / Quick attack Archeops, et cetera.
The only problem I see this creating is that it makes prankstermons and/or using banetite much more viable. Then again, this can be easily counteracted by using magic bounce stones like sablenite, absolite, and diancite.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I support this 110%. PDon is under rated here, despite arguably being the best red orb user. I've used specially defensive double dance with rock polish/bulk up and it works pretty good. Fire punch and earthquake is perfect coverage, bar a few exceptions. Nothing quite compares to a bulky attacker with T-Wave and burn immunities.
Primal Groudon: A- Rank to A Rank
Primal Groudon should move up thanks to its incredible typing and bulk. While it may limit the use of Red Orb on your team, it provides a ton of utility in the form of a Pixilate stop, general physical wall, Thunder Wave / Phazing support, and Stealth Rock. It's powerful as well, so nothing really enjoys switching into it. It's easy to fit on a team thanks to all of its positive attributes. Should move up for these reasons.
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Just fyi, I managed to make and hold at number 2 on the Aqua ladder in one night. I used two teams, on of which didn't even use Espeed at all, and the other only had one. I think I actually only lost one battle. I know that's not the same as the main server, but my point is that you don't need to run Espeed to be successful. Definitely not two or three. In fact, in the few battles I've had time to do on the main server, I've used the same teams and continued to succeed.
I don't play other metas much but I decided to try this one and haven't regretted it since, loads of fun :] Dumping a couple of cool sets i've been using:
Avalugg @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Earthquake
Something I use to snack on things like Dragonite (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Salamencite) and a pretty fat spinner too. Access to recover, decent offensive presence with Avalanche/EQ and an amusing mon to use on more defensive teams
Venusaurite just for all around stat boost in Att, Def and SpD and also thick fat which is pretty nice on Avalugg, lets it deal with refridgerate mons and snack on some fire type attacks too
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Pinsirite at +1
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- 66.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Altarianite at +1
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO - 120 power Avalanche vs Altarianite Dragonite
EQ hits steel types and other annoying ice resists like Entei. Could probably be replaced with coverage but EQ has proved useful
Slowking @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
Fun mon to use, with slowbronite it has great physical bulk but with the good SpD that slowking already has it can take special hits a little better allowing it to set up vs more SpAers. I would show calcs but tbh calcing for Mix n Mega takes a lot of effort and it's almost 4am here o-o Pretty amusing set, deadly if played right and even if you don't set up you can spread some burns around too. Would recommend a cleric because fuck status
Feel free to make suggestions or whatever, just throwing out a couple of cool sets i've been using that I haven't really seen much of :]
e: added sprites in o-o
Avalugg @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Earthquake
Something I use to snack on things like Dragonite (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Salamencite) and a pretty fat spinner too. Access to recover, decent offensive presence with Avalanche/EQ and an amusing mon to use on more defensive teams
Venusaurite just for all around stat boost in Att, Def and SpD and also thick fat which is pretty nice on Avalugg, lets it deal with refridgerate mons and snack on some fire type attacks too
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Pinsirite at +1
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- 66.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Altarianite at +1
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO - 120 power Avalanche vs Altarianite Dragonite
EQ hits steel types and other annoying ice resists like Entei. Could probably be replaced with coverage but EQ has proved useful
Slowking @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
Fun mon to use, with slowbronite it has great physical bulk but with the good SpD that slowking already has it can take special hits a little better allowing it to set up vs more SpAers. I would show calcs but tbh calcing for Mix n Mega takes a lot of effort and it's almost 4am here o-o Pretty amusing set, deadly if played right and even if you don't set up you can spread some burns around too. Would recommend a cleric because fuck status
Feel free to make suggestions or whatever, just throwing out a couple of cool sets i've been using that I haven't really seen much of :]
e: added sprites in o-o